My husband accidentally posted as me. Our apologies.  Christiane Marshall(Quote)

@BobRyan:

The points I raised were about graduate education in general, in response to a post that made a blanket assumption about PhDs. LSU does not offer the doctorate in religion or the sciences, but only in education. At lower levels such as the baccalaureate and masters, students are required to demonstrate a synthesis of relevant material in their respective fields (high school is similar, just with a broader focus). In this sense only could students be thought of as conforming to their professors. This is as it should be, especially in the case of Adventist seminaries or schools of religion that offer the MDiv, where a certain amount of conformity is desired to ensure a relative homogeneity among pastors graduating from such institutions (at least as far as their knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, and general principles of pastoral care and counseling, etc.). Besides, conformity seems to be what is desired by many here; conformity to the principle of a literal six-day creation.

Pax,

David Kendall
Adjunct Professor of Music
La Sierra University  David Kendall, BMus, MA(Quote)

@Richard Sherwin:

Richard Sherwin, I would guess you are one good bee keeper! Degrees aren’t everything as you demonstrate very well. Jesus bypassed the “degreed” people of His day and picked the disciples because they could see and recognize the truth as it was in Jesus, something the “degreed” people never could do.

Our beloved remnant movement was started with no degrees, just honest laymen/women who believed God’s word.

Richard, I just wanted to tell you I think you wrote a great response!  Doug Carlson, Pastor(Quote)

I will second what Pastor Carlson has written. These posts by Neptunnus and Michael are very sad, and very discouraging if you believe that LaSierra exists in part to further the mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

It is sad that Neptunnus considers that concerned Adventists who feel they have an interest in LaSierra are “outsiders” and are “meddling.” Any Adventist should be considered part of the extended family of all Adventist colleges, even if they aren’t alumni. But Adventists from southern or southeastern California, and that includes me, Sean Pitman and Shane Hilde, are part of the Adventist constituency that directly supports LaSierra. We are not “outsiders” and we are not “meddling.”

The conflict between creationism and Darwinism is not a conflict between the “ignorant” (a term Neptunnus uses twice) and the knowledgeable. There are many Ph.D. and M.D. scientists on each side of the issue, and as well as many extremely knowledgeable lay people, like me. The conflict is ultimately between those who want to see Adventist doctrine supported at an Adventist institution and those who don’t want that, and even want to see Adventist doctrine undermined.

It is interesting that Neptunnus sets up a false dichotomy: either teach evolution as fact or “banish” it from the institution. Of course, the third way advocated by me and others who post here is to teach the theory of evolution as what non-believers have come up with to explain the creation, but teach creationism as the true history of our origins.

The statement “Intelligent design is just not backed up by scientific evidence” is interesting for two reasons. First, it indicates that for Neptunnus, creationism, traditionally understood by Adventists to be our true origins, is not even on the table. It is not even an option. The options are Darwinism and Intelligent Design. But ID is very minimally theistic, and without religious content. It does not posit that the earth was created in six literal days and destroyed in a worldwide flood, as the Bible teaches and as Adventists believe. Intelligent Design, by itself and without more, is NOT the Adventist view of origins. Yet for Neptunnus, it is the only alternative to the Darwinism he is being taught as truth. And he has rejected it, anyway.

Second, Neptunnus’ statement that ID isn’t “backed up by scientific evidence” indicates that he probably doesn’t understand the primary philosophical disagreement between ID scientists like Stephen Meyer and Darwinist scientists, to wit, whether science must be naturalistic or whether it may legitimately hypothesize a Designer. If it is a rule of science that only naturalistic explanations are allowed, then it doesn’t matter how designed something looks, it must be only the appearance of design, not actual design. But obviously this is an outcome of a philosophical preference, not of “evidence.” That Neptunnus doesn’t seem to recognize this doesn’t speak well of the quality of his LaSierra education.

It is also interesting that Neptunnus is being taught not to “read the Bible literally,” contrary to the Adventist hermeneutic and doctrinal principles. “But, when you interpret Scripture and dig deeper, science can actually support the Bible.” Of course, Adventist believe that you can dig deeper into true science and see that it supports Scripture without having to “interpret” Scripture in a non-literal way to make it support men’s limited and false theories about origins.

For me, the most frightening thing about Neptunnus and Michael is that they have no clue that their views are in any way unorthodox or un-Adventist. They will be able to say with perfect truthfulness, “My views are Seventh-day Adventist views. I went to a Seventh-day Adventist college and was taught by Seventh-day Adventist professors, who taught me that we evolved over millions of years, and that the Bible is not to be taken literally on the issue of origins. This is what I learned from Adventist professors at an Adventist college, so don’t tell me that my views are in any way un-Adventist.”

If that doesn’t shake you to your foundations, I can’t imagine what would. That is why Pastor Carlson is basically right: if LaSierra cannot be fixed in a resonable span of time, it should be closed, or least stripped of any affiliation with the Adventist Church.  David Read(Quote)

@Doug Carlson, Pastor:

RE: Neptunnus

It this poster is indeed representative of LSU, then I would suggest the entire school be closed immediately and not another precious church dollar be spent there. Neptunnus is clearly in rebellion against God and His word and I see no need to keep a school open just for him. He would be much better served and happier in a public school of higher learning.

His post is one of the saddest bits of news I have ever seen from a SDA institution.

Indeed – we have other SDA universities – not so married to “atheist-friendly evolutionism instead of the Bible” on the doctrine of origins.

However getting to the critical significance of your position above -

I found this interesting regarding Battle Creek before it burned down.

5T 186
The influence exerted by some who have long been connected with the work of God is fatal to spirituality and devotion. These gospel-hardened youth have surrounded themselves with an atmosphere of worldliness, irreverence, and infidelity. Dare you risk the effect of such associations upon your children? It would be better for them never to obtain an education than to acquire it at the sacrifice of principle and the blessing of God. {5T 186.1}

Among the youth who come to Battle Creek there are some who maintain their fidelity to God in the midst of temptation, but the number is small. Many who come here with confidence in the truth, in the Bible, and in religion have been led astray by irreligious associates and have returned to their homes doubting every truth which we as a people hold dear. {5T 186.2}

Let all our brethren who contemplate removing to Battle Creek, or sending their children here, consider the matter well before taking this step. Unless the forces at this great center are keeping the fort, unless the faith and devotion of the church are proportioned to her privileges and opportunities, this is the most dangerous position which you can choose. I have seen the condition of this church as angels look upon it. There is a spiritual deception upon both the people and the watchmen. They maintain the forms of religion, but lack the abiding principles of righteousness. Unless there is a decided change, a marked transformation in this church, <b.the school here should be removed to some other locality. {5T 186.3}

Had the youth who have lived here for years improved their privileges, several who are now skeptics would have devoted themselves to the work of the ministry. But they have considered it an evidence of intellectual superiority to doubt the truth and have been proud of their independence in cherishing infidelity. They have done despite to the Spirit of grace and have trampled upon the blood of Christ. {5T 186.4}

Where are the missionaries who should be raised up at the heart of the work? From twenty to fifty should be sent out from Battle Creek every year to carry the truth to those who sit in darkness. But piety is at so low an ebb, the spirit of devotion is so weak, worldliness and selfishness so prevalent, that the moral atmosphere begets a lethargy fatal to missionary zeal. {5T 187.1}
…
Shake off your spiritual lethargy. Work with all your might to save your own souls and the souls of others. It is no time now to cry, “Peace and safety.” It is not silver-tongued orators that are needed to give this message. The truth in all its pointed severity must be spoken. Men of action are needed –men who will labor with earnest, ceaseless energy for the purifying of the church and the warning of the world. {5T 187.3}

A great work is to be accomplished; broader plans must be laid; a voice must go forth to arouse the nations. Men whose faith is weak and wavering are not the ones to carry forward the work at this important crisis. We need the courage of heroes and the faith of martyrs. {5T 187.4}

So that was the case at Battle Creek back in 1882.

An exercise for the reader:

Imagine if their professors were promoting evolutionism instead of the Bible, and the gay agenda instead of the Bible – how might this instruction have been “different”?

in Christ,

Bob  BobRyan(Quote)

“If their comments are any reflection of the general tenor of LSU students, it is no wonder Louie Bishop and Carlos Cerna have been the only students to speak out against the promotion of evolution at the university. Hopefully this is a misrepresentation of the type of faith that is being formed at LSU” ["Shane Hilde"? - page header]

I believe that these quotes are indeed misrepresentations of the type of faith formed at LSU. The quotes were not directed or posted originally on the Educate Truth site (but rather here: http://drjimsthinkingshop.com/2009/11/07/seventh-day-creationists-petition-the-teaching-of-reality-hopefully-la-sierra-will-evolve-into-a-real-university/#comment-1221).
The two students do not identify themselves, except as LSU students, so we can not tell much about their backgrounds or current affiliations (hence the “alleged” disclaimer in the thread title). Despite michael’s comment that this view is representative of the majority of students on campus, I seriously doubt that claim and no proof is given. Again, this is two students out of a population of 1850, representing a minuscule fraction of possible viewpoints, just as Louie Bishop and Carlos Cerna represent an equally minuscule fraction. This is hardly cause for such drastic measures as some are suggesting, though many are making assumptions (for which I have not seen definitive proof) about the prevalence of such attitudes at LSU.

Doug Carlson, Pastor: It this poster is indeed representative of LSU, then I would suggest the entire school be closed immediately and not another precious church dollar be spent there. Neptunnus is clearly in rebellion against God and His word and I see no need to keep a school open just for him. He would be much better served and happier in a public school of higher learning.

Pastor,

I am certain that you would not consider closing your local church if you had a number of youth members (or other members) in “open rebellion against God.” I am afraid that this may be what drives many youth from the church. Rebellion (of different kinds) is a hallmark of the teen years, and I will remind everyone that a large number of our students are still in their teens. What better place could we desire than an Adventist institution (church or educational) in which students may safely ask questions and wrestle with difficult issues? If we were to close these institutions, we could then send our children to “the world,” where we can be confident that the answers to their questions would not have anything to do with God. We need to keep the school open for just such individuals.

If the counter-argument follows that the students have become like this as a result of their enrollment at LSU, I would dispute that argument. Attitudes among teens and early adults are fairly common along the lines seen above. I also teach at an Adventist academy (Loma Linda Academy) and hear conversations and language that I do not approve of. However, would we prefer that the students remain in this environment where committed Adventist Christian teachers can have a positive influence, or move to secular schools where such influences are muted?

I will end this post with a personal anecdote from my Academy years in the 1990s (Thunderbird Adventist Academy in Scottsdale, Arizona). In my freshman year, our bible teacher was Elder Lee Hadley (retired pastor of the Glendale SDA church). In our class we had a number of disruptive students (as any class of 14-year olds will invariably have), but one boy was particularly difficult, constantly mocking the material and the teacher. After nearly every class, I begged Pastor Hadley to kick the boy out of class, arguing that he didn’t belong there, that he disrespected Christ and the academy. Pastor Hadley always told me that, though he was indeed frustrated, he wanted the boy to stay in the hopes that he would absorb the material and come to a knowledge of Christ, and to know that he was always accepted and valued in the bible class, despite his behavior. I have striven to emulate this Godly attitude (and have failed on occasion) in my own teaching career. I have no idea where this boy is now, but when a time in his life comes when he wonders about eternal things, I hope he remembers not my efforts to have him kicked out the class, but the mercy and kindness shown him by Pastor Hadley at an Adventist school. This is not a perfect analogy to the current situation (analogies never are perfect), but I hope it illustrates the need for safe educational institutions where we can shepherd young people.

David Kendall
Adjunct Professor of Music
La Sierra University  David Kendall, BMus, MA(Quote)

I believe there are a few things that could get missed here.

1. The two posters claiming to be LSU students have shown no indication at all that they are angry with the school or that they wish to change the school in any way. They are posting as 100% devotees of their school, their professors and evolutionism.

So whatever this is – it is not presented in the form of “we are radicals at LSU and we want to change our school”.

2. The two posters present statements that indicate they “believe” they have the full support of their biology professors and religion department. They appear to “believe” that no one in authority inside the school – is in any way objecting to the views they are presenting. In fact they appear to believe that LSU leadership is 100% in their corner on this one.

3. Comparing this to a radical in Academy that is kicking at the doors and lashing out or acting out against teachers and fellow students is to do a study “in contrasts”.

If indeed these are real students – they are saying as much about the environment, faculty and course work at LSU – and what this is designed to produce in the students – as they are about their own personal choices and inclination not to question evolutionist propaganda.

in Christ,

Bob  BobRyan(Quote)

@Doug Carlson, Pastor:

And I am the associate pastor at the Battle Creek Tab and know well its history and I am familar with the quotes shared above re conditions at the college in Battle Creek long ago. They apply fully to conditions now at LSU and a few other of our univeristies. I know a number of SDA pastors who quietly no longer can encourage SDA youth to attend any of our major colleges. Let conditions slip too far out of line with SDA beliefs and there may not be any teaching positions at LSU as wordlings start going where they really want to be and the religious turn to alternatives.

These are serious times.

I posted this section from 5T regarding Battle Creek because I was lead to this text over the past few weeks.

@BobRyan:

I am not one of those who has actually read all of the Testimonies nor even all of Volume 5, I have used the books mostly as a spot reference as the need came up. But in this case – random reading of the book lead to one of the many sections that I have not taken the time to read in the past. In that particular case – it was a divine appointment.

Pastor Carlson – I sense a degree of sorrow in your post that indicates more than a few years dealing with these issues. On the one hand it pains me to read it and to think of what you must have seen in years past – on the other hand it is encouraging to know that men of faith have been watching and praying over this problem.

Who knows but that God may have brought this group together – for such a time as this.

in Christ,

Bob  BobRyan(Quote)

David Kendall, BMus, MA: I will end this post with a personal anecdote from my Academy years in the 1990s (Thunderbird Adventist Academy in Scottsdale, Arizona). In my freshman year, our bible teacher was Elder Lee Hadley (retired pastor of the Glendale SDA church). In our class we had a number of disruptive students (as any class of 14-year olds will invariably have), but one boy was particularly difficult, constantly mocking the material and the teacher. After nearly every class, I begged Pastor Hadley to kick the boy out of class, arguing that he didn’t belong there, that he disrespected Christ and the academy. Pastor Hadley always told me that, though he was indeed frustrated, he wanted the boy to stay in the hopes that he would absorb the material and come to a knowledge of Christ, and to know that he was always accepted and valued in the bible class, despite his behavior. I have striven to emulate this Godly attitude (and have failed on occasion) in my own teaching career. I have no idea where this boy is now, but when a time in his life comes when he wonders about eternal things, I hope he remembers not my efforts to have him kicked out the class, but the mercy and kindness shown him by Pastor Hadley at an Adventist school. This is not a perfect analogy to the current situation (analogies never are perfect), but I hope it illustrates the need for safe educational institutions where we can shepherd young people.

I went to bed last night thinking about this testimony. The practice of using personal stories like this is used more and more by political parties to emphasize the need for whatever bill they are pushing. Democrcats right now are using a lot of personal stories as exhibit A in their call for a national health bill.

However, Mr. Kendall’s illustration, though very personal, is not the final answer. I can bring forward a number of former SDAs who were sent off to academy or college by their parents who, at great cost, hoped to save their son or daughter from the world and tip them towards Jesus in a Chrisitan enviroment, but instead these young people were befriended by the “wrong crowd” and completely lost their way at one of our schools and never recovered. The number that fall into this group is a very large number. So we try to save one wayward youth who should not be in our schools and in the process we lose a dozen or more. Not very good evangelism.

Actually, stats would suggest we are losing much more than that. Across NA the percentage of our young people who remain SDAs after attending our academies and colleges is ever declining. Can we claim even 45% of our youth are still faithful church members after attending these institutions? If all we are trying to do is educate young people for a job, it is time to close our schools and invest our money elsewhere.

-Pastor Carlson  Doug Carlson, Pastor(Quote)

Stephen Vicaro: Brothers and sisters,I would like to remind us that this issue is not about rebellious students. It is about rebellious professors. The students are only reflecting the knowledge and attitude of their professors at LSU. This matter could greatly be held in check by firing teachers and pastors who refuse to keep their promise to uphold the beliefs of the SDA church. Get rid of these teachers, then the students will have a chance to learn truth and hopefully take hold of the mission to bring the everlasting gospel to the world.  (Quote)

Maybe that is not the case. When Aaron made the golden calf he mostly was giving in to what the people wanted. I am not so sure that these professors are alone responsible. If I as a pastor held a week of prayer at one of our colleges, lets say LSU, and preached certain things that I knew Neptunnus would respond to, I could be popluar, but how SDA would my series be? Its like the old question, are politicans just the way they are and voters flock around them, or do politicans recognize what the majority view is and then join the majority declaring, “I can give you what you want- vote for me!” and have no backbone of their own? I have seen pastors that have preached to be acceptable to the world, why wouldn’t there be teachers who would seek popularity that way too?

Of course, it could be a mutual parasitic relationship between both student and teacher- maybe they need each other. Just something to consider. I am fully aware of the mixed multitude influence upon ancient Israel. That mixed multitude did have influence with Aaron, but they had no influence with God’s real man, Moses.  Doug Carlson, Pastor(Quote)

Doug Carlson, Pastor: I went to bed last night thinking about this testimony. The practice of using personal stories like this is used more and more by political parties to emphasize the need for whatever bill they are pushing. Democrcats right now are using a lot of personal stories as exhibit A in their call for a national health bill.

However, Mr. Kendall’s illustration, though very personal, is not the final answer.

Pastor,

You are certainly right, such illustrations are not the final answer, but are merely examples of the practical application of theoretical principles in real-world situations. Their use by political parties (of all persuasions, I will remind you) does not show that they are inappropriate, just that they are generally effective.

Doug Carlson, Pastor: I can bring forward a number of former SDAs who were sent off to academy or college by their parents who, at great cost, hoped to save their son or daughter from the world and tip them towards Jesus in a Chrisitan enviroment, but instead these young people were befriended by the “wrong crowd” and completely lost their way at one of our schools and never recovered.

The example I gave is an illustration of your point. We have no idea what happened to the boy in question; as far as we know, he was lost to the church. However, as I said, rebellion of some sort is a hallmark of the formative years in the lives of these children, whether inside or outside of the church. Parents sending their children to an academy or college for the express purpose of saving them from the world is, I am afraid, a misguided action. As parents are the leading sources of influence in the lives of their children, the “home years” (when students are living at home) are highly valuable in their character development. This is why I am not very keen on the idea of boarding academies for teenagers. At the college level however, students have generally reached adulthood (legally defined as age 18) and are eager to begin “cutting the apron strings”. At this time, it is the influence of Godly teachers, deans, campus pastors and staff that is so valuable to the formation of these young adults.

Doug Carlson, Pastor: If all we are trying to do is educate young people for a job, it is time to close our schools and invest our money elsewhere.

We are trying to educate young people for their future professions and vocations, by providing quality instruction and training in an Adventist Christian context. All of the professors with which I associate regularly see their work as both profession and mission. As both a graduate and as current faculty, I can attest to the effectiveness of the institution at accomplishing these goals. I can think of few better investments for the Lord’s money.

Pax,

David Kendall
Adjunct Professor of Music
La Sierra University  David Kendall, BMus, MA(Quote)

@BobRyan:

quoted 5T186 – 187

The downward path for any private university is simply to slump down to the level of the “best public education that private institution dollars can buy” if they let their initial vision and mission fall by the wayside.

That is the obvious part.

the question is – to what extent does the warning in that post referenced above – still apply to our church.

in Christ,

Bob  BobRyan(Quote)

Ron, as a doctor you speak much truth and realize that the longer a cancer grows the harder it is to eradicate. It seems that in this case the “doctors” are spending their times making excuses for not operating or denying that the cancer even exists. They are fiddling while Rome burns, instead of fighting the fire. God will hold them accountable for their non actions even if the church does not.

Doug how can I get in touch with you? BTW my nephew was on the MRT this weekend. Enjoyed the wonderful music of coyotes and watched a bald eagle fly over their campsite. I should have gone but there were duties……  Richard Sherwin(Quote)

My guess is that the leadership in the church is just waiting for the hub bub to die down so they can blissfully go on without having to do anything about it. Sometimes it’s easier to ignore a problem than to do anything about it with the unrealistic hope the problem with solve it’s self. It never does, it just gets worse. I do this with my vehicle and it costs big bucks in the end. But with this issue it will cost salvation for many. Sad.  Richard Sherwin(Quote)

@Doug Carlson, Pastor: my friend jim sent his son off to academy and when he met his foul mouthed, satanic music playing cigarette smoking roommate, he complained to the dean. he was told he was an alarmist and that his son would not be assigned a new roommate. as much as jim complained he was told to be quiet. he was treated as if he were the problem. the sad story is, his son got in to smoking, and then crystal meth. he got kicked out before he graduated and his mind was thouroughly messed up for quite awile. When i see posts like this about how we should allow the rebels to go unchecked in our schools it makes me sick! i watched my friend dole out huge $$ to send their son to our academy to see him get kicked out and acquire a drug problem. oh, by the way, the other rebel got kicked out too-too late for jim’s son. and no apology to jim and his wife. and how about my buddy timhey who told me about satan worship while he was in academy? he told me some really creepy stories. and yes, he was part of it. he’s no longer in the church. how spineless can we be? i believe in academic freedom but this is an adventist institution. we are not to support naturalism or evolution as truth. We could teach it as an ideology that is opposed to adventist(and all christian) belief. point out it’s strengths, and it’s glaring weaknesses. if someone wants to teach it and uphold it, let them go someplace that is more in line with their beliefs. don’t seek to infiltrate or undermine a seventh day adventist institution. funny, i just happened to turn on animal planet and they are featuring a group from la sierra in search of pit vipers. with all of their mention of evolution(and support for it) on this program, i had to check and see if there was more than one la sierra university. i grew up in the secular world and learned to mock and ridicule the bible. i was taught evolution. I have been eating crow since 1982! it takes so much faith for me to believe in evolution now, it has to be classified as a religion in my mind. anyway, i hope this can be settled in an honest, above the board, christlike manner. it may take some strong actions. be strong and of a good courage brethren!  brianraines(Quote)

David, I do sympathize with your position. You sound like an honest, god-fearing teacher at LSU. I am sure there are others. How many, I do not know, but I am sure there are others. Is it possible for the honest faculty to petition the administration for a strict abherence to denominational standards by all teachers and removal of those who wander off into, I will use the term “offshoot” teachings? A few can and are jepordizing the security of those like yourself. This site is being shared with many SDAs. They know what is going on. It is sure to have an impact on enrollment eventually.

Hi Pastor,

Sorry for the long delay in answering. PhD dissertations do tend to obscure other considerations, especially when they are coming due!

My previous post does, I believe, address your question as to the numbers of honest, God-fearing faculty at LSU; that is, all of them that I know. One of the issues that saddens me when I read many of the posts on this forum is the questioning of motives, questioning of Adventist or even Christian credentials, and putting words into the mouths (or thoughts into the minds) of many committed, mission-minded faculty members that I know and respect and who have made positive, spiritual impacts in my own life (that is my “wild claim”). I am further saddened when such reports are often received at second hand, which is why I have made it a point to attempt to correct factual errors from time to time.

Regarding a petition to strict adherence to denominational principles (I am assuming you are referring to the 28), I tend to think that very few faculty members (though I speak only for myself) would support litmus or purity tests of that sort, due to a few reasons. One, we have (in Adventism) generally avoided prescriptive creedal statements, largely due to the negative connotations such statements have had (to us) in and from other Christian faith traditions. Two, how would we enforce such a set of standards (and what would be the proof)? And who would be tasked to enforce it? I would not even trust myself in such an position.

Regarding job security, I did not begin teaching at LSU seven years ago for the security (and certainly not for the money!). I teach at La Sierra because I believe in the institution and the positive impacts it has on the lives (spiritual, social, professional, musical) of the students that spend four or five years in the care of our dedicated faculty, staff and administrators. That is the knowledge I have at first hand, and if any of these faculty are purged from the institution and the church (as happened at Southern, PUC and Walla Walla in recent times), it will be Adventism’s deep, deep loss.

Pax,

David Kendall
Adjunct Professor of Music
La Sierra University  David Kendall, BMus, MA(Quote)

@David Kendall, BMus, MA:

That is the knowledge I have at first hand, and if any of these faculty are purged from the institution and the church (as happened at Southern, PUC and Walla Walla in recent times), it will be Adventism’s deep, deep loss.

In the case of Walla Walla – the Union stepped in (at the direct request of the GC president to the Union president) to address a raging fire of evolutionism that had taken over both the religion department and some of the sciences.

Neutrality in a Religious Crisis: Condemned

In the full light of the sun, surrounded by thousands,–men of war, prophets of Baal, and the monarch of Israel,–stands the defenseless man, Elijah, apparently alone, yet not alone. The most powerful host of heaven surrounds him. Angels who excel in strength have come from heaven to shield the faithful and righteous prophet. With stern and commanding voice Elijah cries: “How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.” Not one in that vast assembly dared utter one word for God and show his loyalty to Jehovah. {3T 280.2}

What astonishing deception and fearful blindness had, like a dark cloud, covered Israel! This blindness and apostasy had not closed about them suddenly; it had come upon them gradually as they had not heeded the word of reproof and warning which the Lord had sent to them because of their pride and their sins. And now, in this fearful crisis, in the presence of the idolatrous priests and the apostate king, they remained neutral. If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God. {3T 280.3}

Principle of corporate Guilt: explained

I saw that many souls will sink in darkness because of their covetousness. The plain, straight testimony must live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His people as surely as it did upon ancient Israel because of their sins. God holds His people, as a body, responsible for the sins existing in individuals among them. If the leaders of the church neglect to diligently search out the sins which bring the displeasure of God upon the body, they become responsible for these sins. …{3T 269.2}

Attacks on Fundamental Beliefs exposed

Satan is now doing, through individuals like Thomas Paine, what he has been trying to do since his fall. He is, through his power and lying wonders, tearing away the foundation of the Christian’s hope and putting out the sun that is to light the narrow way to heaven. He is making the world believe that the Bible is uninspired, no better than a storybook,.. {EW 265.1}

Attacks on Fundamental Beliefs coming from INSIDE the church

What influence is it would lead men at this stage of our history to work in an underhand, powerful way to tear down the foundation of our faith–the foundation that was laid at the beginning of our work by prayerful study of the Word and by revelation?

Upon this foundation we have been building for the past fifty years. Do you wonder that when I see the beginning of a work that would remove some of the pillars of our faith, I have something to say? I must obey the command, “Meet it!” . . . {1SM 207.3}

I must bear the messages of warning that God gives me to bear, and then leave with the Lord the results. I must now present the matter in all its bearings; for the people of God must not be despoiled. {1SM 208.1}

We are God’s commandment-keeping people. For the past fifty years every phase of heresy has been brought to bear upon us, to becloud our minds regarding the teaching of the Word–especially concerning the ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, and the message of Heaven for these last days, as given by the angels of the fourteenth chapter of Revelation. Messages of every order and kind have been urged upon Seventh-day Adventists, to take the place of the truth which, point by point, has been sought out by prayerful study, and testified to by the miracle-working power of the Lord. But the waymarks which have made us what we are, are to be preserved, and they will be preserved, as God has signified through His Word and the testimony of His Spirit. He calls upon us to hold firmly, with the grip of faith, to the fundamental principles that are based upon unquestionable authority.
{1SM 208.2}

That is the work that was belatedly done at Walla Walla.

That is the work that will be necessary at LSU.

When Moses came down from Sinai and saw rebellion in the camp – the first question he asked was “who is on the Lord’s side”.

But what is fascinating is that the Levites were told to go to their relatives and close neighbors — they were not instructed to go to tribes at the far end of the camp from where they lived. Thus it was a very hard thing for them to do for it cost them personally. How much better it would have been had the priests – including Aaron – stood up to the rebellion early on and spared everyone all that pain.

in Christ,

Bob  BobRyan(Quote)

Hi David -

Bob said:
Suppose all the first hand testimony from both parents and students that has been posted here about their being brushed aside when they were shocked to discover an “all-for-evolutionism” agenda at LSU

David responds -

I do not deny that there may have been occasions in which faculty members did not respond appropriately to student complaints (I posted about that in another thread). However, if I am to take your “all for evolutionism agenda at LSU” seriously, I would need much more evidence than a couple of syllabus copies of biology classes or unsourced statements attributed to a religion professor. For such an agenda to be pervasive throughout the campus. (and that would have to include me, by the way), I would need to see evidence from multiple faculty in multiple departments across the institution; and that such an agenda is pursued at the expense of all others.

1. I agree that no one has claimed that the agenda for evolutionism has gone “throughout the campus” as in the notion that every faculty member is bought in. We have had a number of discussions here pointing out that such a thing is unlikely.

2. As for Bradley’s “sourced” statements – they can still be found here
http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/lsu-controversy-receives-secular-media-attention/

3. As for Fritz guys statements published and otherwise — my understanding is that you have said he is in an office very near your office. Surely your talking to him about those statements is not “out of the question”.

Is there something specific in what I have attributed to him that you question?

Bob said:
Then WHERE is the evidence?

Given that we have had LSU members posting here from time to time. Why have they not brought to light their stellar creationist, 28 FB affirming Biology program evidence. Certainly THEY should have been “aware” of it.

Thus the – “there is no truth to the complaints” style argument never really gets off the ground.

David responds:

David said:
The fact that LSU members (I assume you mean students) have not shown overwhelming evidence of a creationist agenda is not evidence that such an agenda does not exist, or that it does (this is an example of the argumentum ad ignorantiam or “appeal to ignorance” argument). I am sure the students did not assume that providing such evidence was expected of them here.

Actually I was referring to faculty. For example Erv Taylor is listed as a guest speaker in one of the biology courses. He has some posts here too as it turns out.

And we have had other faculty members and former LSU faculty members post here as well.

There is much more coming from them about the fact that Evolutionism IS being taught as the “right answer” than anything of the form “Oh no – we teach the students that evolution is dead wrong”.

What am I missing?

Bob said:
At best you get “it is not nice to complain about evolution being in conflict with the Bible and the 28FB”. OR maybe even “when you complain about evoutionism some here do not always put the best possible face on it”.

If that latter form is the point you are making, then let me ask you this.

And then I asked for a comparison between what we find posted on these web pages and 3SG 90-91.

in Christ,

Bob  BobRyan(Quote)

“I’m currently a student at LSU and I know personally that a great percentage of our campus fully supports the three professors under fire,.. “Neptunnus

A fair comment…After all; you would think if they didn’t know more, re science than you; there would be nothing you need to learn from them…and hence supporting them until you have reason not to; is only reasonable.

“…and we also DON’T like outsiders trying to influence what goes on in our classrooms….”Neptunnus

A very unfair comment….Without the “outsiders”, there would be no funds to educate you and the “great percentage” who are trying to get the equivalent or better of the education the “outsiders” already have to their credit.

“…. We DON’T like how ignorant Adventists who don’t have PhD’s or other reputable qualifications criticizing what professors are teaching, who actually do have the qualifications…..”Neptunnus

Another unfair comment….You would think that it couldn’t be possible for “ignorant Adventists” to have thought to build and staff a unversity of such high standards; high enough ie; to have attracted such intellingencia as yourself and “the great percentage”…if in fact those Adventists were “ignorant” as you assert. May one then take the liberty to suppose that there may well be some inexperience in identifying those who may be “ignorant” given the inexperience of the one doing the identifying;
and given also that because he/she may just now be attending an institution of higher learning that his/her “ignorant” Adventist mom or dad attended many years ago!

“…. I find banishing the theory of evolution from our curriculum a form of brain washing. Intelligent design is just not backed up by scientific evidence.”Neptunnus

True….and neither is a Being called God! So your “ignorant Adventist” mom and or dad must have also “brainwashed” you to believe a fact not “backed up by scientific evidence”.
Now; were you are were you not “brainwashed”? If you were; then don’t you think as one learned; that you must then also give others the right you enjoyed; in being yourself “brainwashed”?

Oh! do you believe there is a God? I should not have assumed you did? afterall; it is not backed up by scientific evidence!

“…. In addition, religion and science are two different methods of studying life. However, when you read the Bible literally, science and religion don’t go hand in hand…”Neptunnus

Very perceptive….And since they don’t; which do you think should have preeminence? Science or the Creator of science? Or do you accept that science created itself? If science created itself,you then do not need religion. I will not insult your intelligence and that of the “great percentage”; in asking if you see the abscence of logic in your suggesting that science and religion are “different methods of studying life”…ie if the “religious” side of the duo[science/religion] is subordinate to science; then what need is there to bore oneself with the inferior author of religion.

“…. But, when you interpret Scripture and dig deeper, science can actually support the Bible….”Neptunnus

And when science doesn’t support the Bible; who then has the ascendancy?
Science…? The Bible…? I would say the Bible….What would you say?
If you would also say the Bible…you would now be as those “——– Adventists”. If you disclaim the Bible…you would as a result disclaim the Author of the Bible. You would then have chosen the side of science or whomever represents the side of science; and such a choice would put you and the “great percentage” as opposing the Author of the Bible.

“… Most of us students are confused to why there is such a big controversy……………..I would love to address the protestors who will come to our campus this Wednesday and say, “Stand if you have a Bachelors. Remain standing if you have a PhD. Stay standing if you have a PhD in a science field. The ones who are still standing are the only ones qualified enough to be here protesting, and for the ones who are qualified obviously you’re PhD doesn’t mean s—.”Neptunnus

I suppose if Jesus happened to be among the protestors(remember He would be on the side of the Bible)he couldn’t stand at all!; his not having any certificate from the unversity of Jerusalem. Would you also say that his raising a dead human and bringing that dead human to life; a feat unheard of; re it’s being able to be replicated by any known human with any number of PhDs; would you say that you would still see Jesus as unqualified to speak to the science of “cell respiration”;[the stuff re mitochondria] given that he is no scientist and has not a PhD….O!..in science!?

“…. But, as a well-mannered University student, I choose to ignore the ignorant and the meddling group of people who claim to value high-education. I am by the way, a conservative and practicing Adventist. Learning about the theory of evolution has actually strengthened my relationship and belief in God, not weakened it….”Neptunnus

Really!…..I would never have guessed. For starters…a practicing Adventist is a true follower of Christ. A true follower of Christ cannot both believe that Jesus, the Lord he follows would be speaking the truth when He said “that He made all things; and nothing was made without Him” John 1:1…if such a follower of Christ also believes it impossible for Jesus to create life in an instant; and in exactly the same fashion as He recreated the dead putrefying cells of Lazarus…electrifying them into manufacturing the chemistry of life[cell respiration stuff]….AND IN AN INSTANT! Or was Lazarus never dead in the first place! Why don’t you run this one by your professors? You may be surprised at the answer from a ‘learned’ PhD! Then try an “ignorant Adventist”…Sure! you already know the answer! Well!as a practicing Adventist yourself; between the professor and the Adventist; in your estimation; which one would you say is “ignorant”?

Courtney  Courtney Edwards(Quote)