Jan Paulsen: 2004 vs 2009

During GYC’s annual conference “Carry the Light,” (Dec. 16, 2004) Jan Paulsen answered questions cold prior to his talk “Consider How You Ought To Live.” After his introduction, the audio cuts (:30 sec) to the second question regarding Seventh-day Adventist professors that do not actively uphold some of the distinctive beliefs of the church.

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Compare his comments from 2004 with his resent reaction to a similar question in a Q&A session held at Andrews University Seminary Chapel August 15, 2009.

Elder Jan Paulsen was reportedly given an anonymous question from an AU faculty member that said: I am someone who believes in God and creation, but not in a literal six-day creation. Should I resign from my teaching position in an Adventist University?

According to Jennifer Birney, an AU employee and student, Jan Paulsen immediately responded, “Yes.” The Q&A was called “Let’s Talk About Adventist Education” and was part of a three-day event called Fall Fellowship, which occurs annually at Andrews. This follows Paulsen’s June appeal “to all engaged by our church in the ministries of administration, preaching, teaching, and writing to articulate and reflect our stand as a community on Creation.”

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41 thoughts on “Jan Paulsen: 2004 vs 2009

  1. “The Price You Pay for Freedom” – Elder Paulsen

    It seems to me that Paulsen was, back in 2004 at least, advocating a form of church government that is completely impotent when it comes to actively supporting its own stated ideals – even with its own employees. The SDA employee can do or say whatever he/she wants without any real recourse from the SDA Church as an organization? Really?! This isn’t how it was during the formation of the early SDA Church organization.

    Although originally opposed to such constraints, it was John Loughborough, together with James White, who first started to realize the need for some sort of internal enforcement of Church order and discipline – i.e., a Church government. J.N. Loughborough in his 1907 work, The Church, Its Organization, Order and Discipline wrote:

    “As our numbers increased, it was evident that without some form of organization, there would be great confusion, and the work could not be carried forward successfully. To provide for the support of the ministry, for carrying on the work in new fields, for protecting both the church and ministry from unworthy members, for holding church property, for the publication of the truth through the press, and for other objects, organization was indispensable.”

    Of course, those who were not considered to accurately represent the views of the early SDA Church did not receive “cards of commendation”. And what was the attitude of such persons? – according to Loughborough?:

    Of course those who claimed “liberty to do as they pleased,” to “preach what they pleased,” and to “go when and where they pleased,” without “consultation with any one,” failed to get cards of commendation. They, with their sympathizers, drew off and commenced a warfare against those whom they claimed were “depriving them of their liberty.” Knowing that it was the Testimonies that had prompted us as a people to act, to establish “order,” these opponents soon turned their warfare against instruction from that source, claiming that “when they got that gift out of the way, the message would go unrestrained to its `loud cry.’ ”

    One of the principal claims made by those who warred against organization was that it “abridged their liberty and independence, and that if one stood clear before the Lord that was all the organization needed,” etc… All the efforts made to establish order are considered dangerous, a restriction of rightful liberty, and hence are feared as popery.”

    – Loughborough, JN. Testimonies for the Church. p. 650. Vol. 1.

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  2. Those who are in open rebellion against the clearly stated ideals of the Church should not remain in the employ of the SDA Church. Tithe monies and offerings are not to be spent to support open rebellion and blatantly subversive behavior. Such “freedom” does not a viable organization make. Even Lucifer was forced to leave Heaven when he openly rebelled against the government and order of Heaven.

    Private struggles are one thing. Open blatant rebellion is quite another. Church leaders, including Elder Paulsen, need to act as true leaders to maintain the order, discipline, and government of the SDA Church – as an organization.

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  3. That opening article is a good example of the difference between theory and real life. Sow to the wind – reap the whirlwind when it comes to opening a door for evolutionism into the church.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  4. The question was put to Dr. Paulsen on the basis that, “Some of us are concerned that our church is employing professors and teachers that do not actively uphold some of the church’s distinctive teachings and positions.”

    Dr. Paulsen tried to answer the question with the question, “Why does God allow sin in the universe?” “Somehow he allows it.”

    His answer, sadly, was irrelevant as to whether teachers should be employed to teach in opposition to Seventh-day Adventist beliefs in a Seventh-day Adventist school.

    Dr. Paulsen’s answer would be relevant to the question, “Some of us are concerned that our church grants Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness to professors and teachers that do not actively uphold some of the church’s distinctive teachings and positions. These teachers should instead be destroyed immediately.”

    Let’s try his answer in order to attempt a justification of a range of anti-Christian classes. Which of the following, if any, classes does the question, “Why does God allow sin in the universe?” justify being taught by a professor in a Seventh-day Adventist school?

    1. “Dr. Witch”: teaching Sorcery 101 – (Revelation 21:8) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”
    2. “Dr. Adulterer”: teaching Nightclub Management 101 – (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”
    3. “Dr. Infidel”: teaching Evolutionary Biology 101 – (Genesis 1:31; Exodus 20:11) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”
    4. “Dr. Idolator”: teaching Buddha Carving 101 – (Exodus 20:5) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”
    5. “Dr. Defiler”: teaching Body Piercing, Tattooing and Masochism 101 – (1 Corinthians 3:17) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”
    6. “Dr. Revenge”: teaching Nuclear Bomb Assembly 101 – (Matthew 5:43) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”

    Answer: Zero.

    Satan was cast out of heaven (Rev. 12:8-9) and his teachings should be cast out of Christian schools. By the way, no one was saying every book, video and piece of music needs to be approved by the president. But when they are found to be anti-Christian there must be a system in place to remove them, their proponents or both.
    God bless,

    Rich




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  5. In the SDA church, leaders not only set, but are representative of the spiritual tone of the church. They are nominated and elected. Where was every member upholding leaders in prayer and faithfully working to counteract evil their entire lives then to prove the correct leaders in office? If we had been faithful to wrestle against principalities and powers on behalf of God’s work on earth through His church this situation would have been averted.

    When mold becomes visible, it is too late to simply wash away the surface. It is running through the entire organism. It is too late for a quick fix. Visible problems in leadership run throughout the entire body. Consider Daniel’s prayer in Daniel 9:5-6. Daniel wasn’t blaming leadership alone in those texts. Daniel recognized himself as a sinner and part of the problem.

    Jesus answered questions with questions many times. Answering in this way, Elder Paulsen did not necessarily avoid the question. His conclusion was problematic. Elder Paulsen’s response ended with the charge to youth to go somewhere else if they don’t like what is being taught.

    It is the worst form of lying to lie in matters pertaining to faith and lead others astray (Matthew 18:6.) God’s Word is truth, sanctifying and faithful. (John 17:17.) Advertising a university as a Seventh-day Adventist University upholding the Word of God then not only baiting and switching but then denying it after years of so doing is plain, bold lying. This lying God abhors (Proverbs 12:22.) Telling someone to go somewhere else doesn’t solve the problem. Lying is sin, and those who practice it will be judged by God and destroyed in hell fire. False teachers and shepherds will receive the most severe judgment (Malachi 2:7, 8, 9.)

    The Bible says, “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
    Revelation 21:27

    “For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”
    Revelation 22:15

    “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
    Revelation 21:8
    God bless,

    Rich




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  6. His 2004 statement was that the SDA church “does not have the mechanism” that would be needed for him to dictate a limit beyond which our Universities cannot go. Paulsen states that this is the “price we pay” for our freedom. Paulsen argues that for him to dictate what may and may not be taught we would need the Roman Catholic Papal model — investing him with that kind of absolute authority – which he says the church certainly does not want to do. He even starts off with the fact that this is a system of “distributed responsibility” (as opposed to central role of a dictatorship).

    Paulsen concludes as Ron states with the ultimate “fix” which is “why don’t students stop attending those (SDA) schools” where they know there is a problem. (And he specifically cites the problem of institutions promoting evolutionism as a prime example of this.)

    Thus he has washed his hands of the problem in 2004 – under the excuse that the Adventist system by definition is one of distributed authority and therefore (he appears to claim) distributed responsibility as opposed to centralized responsibility.

    Paulsen argues that while the GC is adamant about SDA Fundamental Beliefs — all it could really do was make private appeals to university boards and church administrators begging them to do the right thing, begging them to please implement the Church’s distinctive beliefs.

    This was exactly the kind of carte blanche “open door” that devotees to evolutionism would have been looking for. As of that point – we were apparently under the rule – caviat emptor arguing that conscientious SDA students should “leave” when they see the “disguised infidelity” of evolutionism adopted by this or that SDA institution.

    As the denominational figure head Paulsen declared that nothing actually stopped our institutions from sowing to the wind – so it is not too surprising that we were about to reap a whirl wind. If all that was true just as he said – then “katy bar the door” my friends.

    What he was careful not to state – is that as the figurehead of leadership in our church Paulsen and NAD presidents had a huge degree of influence with church members and by voicing their outright dissapproval of this or that institution – they could “clarify the issue” for would be parents and students of those institutions, AND he could influence constituent voters associated with the various unions that were mismanaging their duties. Saying any of that would be “the rest of the story” and would be laying at least “some” of the responsibility at his own door.

    But on the up side – it would have been a shot across the bow for universities poised on the brink of that all-for-disguised-infidelity moment of truth.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  7. I am intrigued by the question, “why do you go there?” Why do the students keep going there? What would happen if one day half the student body got into their cars and drove to some other university of their choosing and enrolled there?

    If I don’t like the local hardware store and the ownership is unable to right things so I will like it, I just go to another hardware store.

    Not the solution we would like to see but a solution never the less. This is a NAD school?? Where is the NAD in all of this?




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  8. Rich Constantinescu: The question was put to Dr. Paulsen on the basis that, “Some of us are concerned that our church is employing professors and teachers that do not actively uphold some of the church’s distinctive teachings and positions.” Dr. Paulsen tried to answer the question with the question, “Why does God allow sin in the universe?” “Somehow he allows it.”His answer, sadly, was irrelevant as to whether teachers should be employed to teach in opposition to Seventh-day Adventist beliefs in a Seventh-day Adventist school. Dr. Paulsen’s answer would be relevant to the question, “Some of us are concerned that our church grants Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness to professors and teachers that do not actively uphold some of the church’s distinctive teachings and positions. These teachers should instead be destroyed immediately.” Let’s try his answer in order to attempt a justification of a range of anti-Christian classes. Which of the following, if any, classes does the question, “Why does God allow sin in the universe?” justify being taught by a professor in a Seventh-day Adventist school?1. “Dr. Witch”: teaching Sorcery 101 – (Revelation 21:8) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”2. “Dr. Adulterer”: teaching Nightclub Management 101 – (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”3. “Dr. Infidel”: teaching Evolutionary Biology 101 – (Genesis 1:31; Exodus 20:11) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”4. “Dr. Idolator”: teaching Buddha Carving 101 – (Exodus 20:5) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”5. “Dr. Defiler”: teaching Body Piercing, Tattooing and Masochism 101 – (1 Corinthians 3:17) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”6. “Dr. Revenge”: teaching Nuclear Bomb Assembly 101 – (Matthew 5:43) “Because God allows sin in the universe.”Answer: Zero.Satan was cast out of heaven (Rev. 12:8-9) and his teachings should be cast out of Christian schools. By the way, no one was saying every book, video and piece of music needs to be approved by the president. But when they are found to be anti-Christian there must be a system in place to remove them, their proponents or both.God bless,Rich  (Quote)




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  9. I believe the point he is making is that the GC is not the Vatican and cannot control institutions as we are a democratic church; frankly, the individuals in control of the the institutions themselves are the ones that hold the greatest accountability…

    albeit, our tithe money is being spent for these teachers, and in this way the GC can take back control of the direction of our Schools, but this is a 100+ year old problem and was an issue even in the days of the original founders of our denomination.




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  10. Shame on Mr. Paulsen! How dare he turn this around to make the students, who are, by the way, the victims in this issue, to be the bad guys. How dare he say that the solution is that we should just abandon a university (or universities) that have been built up with the blood, sweat, and tears of the members of the SDA church to the control of those who refuse to teach what is right. What a spineless, impotent, useless solution to a problem that should be very straight forward–fire the professors who are openly rebelling against the truth!

    Mr. Paulsen should look into the church manual and find out what his job is, seeing as he hasn’t got a clue what it is.

    I am soooo ticked off–or maybe it is disappointed–in any case, I had better leave it at that for right now.

    Faith




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  11. Corneliu: Way to go, Rich ! It looks like we need a new GC President with a little backbone. 

    🙂 The president represents – not only sets – the spiritual “tone” of the church. Therefore an all-through repentance and revival is needed. I welcome, look for and pray for our president’s and others’ leadership and participation.

    Shayne Vincent: I believe the point he is making is that the GC is not the Vatican and cannot control institutions as we are a democratic church; frankly, the individuals in control of the the institutions themselves are the ones that hold the greatest accountability…

    The General Conference Working Policy states:
    FE 20 05 The Department of Education – Purpose – The General Conference Department of Education has been entrusted with the overall coordination and supervision of the Church’s educational system, working through such administrative authority as is delegated by the various organizational levels of the world Church.” (p. 232) There is indeed an “International Board of Education” for the General Conference, on which the General Conference President holds ex officio membership (by virtue of his office) along with 1. General Conference Secretary 2. General Conference Treasurer 3. Division Presidents.

    Responsibilities of Tertiary Institutions (post-secondary): “Adventist institutions of higher education provide students a unique environment for the pursuit of learning in the arts, humanities and religion, sciences, and various professions, within the perspective of the Seventh-day Adventist worldview.” (p. 229) emphasis supplied.

    As ex officio members, the president and NAD chief officers can attend any board meeting of any educational institution in the NAD.
    God bless,

    Rich




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  12. Sean Pitman, M.D.:Those who are in open rebellion against the clearly stated ideals of the Church should not remain in the employ of the SDA Church. Tithe monies and offerings are not to be spent to support open rebellion and blatantly subversive behavior

    I couldn’t agree more. Conference leadership appears to be a travesty of truth and justice in the matter of LSU. The reason Sean stated is one reason why I no longer send my tithes and offerings to the conference, and send them instead to Amazing Facts, It Is Written, and other Adventist Independent Ministries that do the real work of presenting the 3 angels messages to the world as evidenced by the Rome campaign that is such a success. These fine workers for God do not teach evolutionistic concepts.

    From what I’ve seen recently, Elder Paulsen as well as other conference leaders, present more of a political “please everyone” agenda than taking a strong stand on God’s word. That evidence is manifested in the seemingly never ending apostasy at LSU.

    Any conference leader who cannot enforce Adventist foundational beliefs, should step down immediately and find another church more compatible with their own positions.

    Perhaps part of the problem is that these executives may be so job scared, they are afraid to stand for truth. Is their job more important? Should we have volunteer administrators who are not dependent upon church salaries?
    Does administration work qualify one for living off the gospel, especially if they are not upholding it?




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  13. Steve Billiter: Does administration work qualify one for living off the gospel, especially if they are not upholding it?  

    Brother Steve, Are you a member of a conference? If you are, does that conference qualify for your membership? If you are a member of a conference, that same conference qualifies for your tithe if it qualifies for your membership.

    “A selfish withholding from God will tend to poverty in our own souls. Act your part, my brethren and sisters. God loves you, and He stands at the helm. If the conference business is not managed according to the order of the Lord, that is the sin of the erring ones. The Lord will not hold you responsible for it, if you do what you can to correct the evil. But do not commit sin yourselves by withholding from God His own property. ‘Cursed be he that doeth the work of the negligently,’ or deceitfully. When persons declare that they will not pay their tithes because the means are not used as they think they ought to be, will the elder of the church or the minister sympathize with the sinners? Will he aid the enemy in his work? Or will he, as a wise man, endued with knowledge, go to work to correct the vile, and thus remove the stumbling-block? but, brethren do not be unfaithful in your lot. Stand in your place. Do not, by your neglect of duty, increase our financial difficulties.” Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 1, pp. 27, 28 (Aug. 10, 1890) emphasis supplied.

    Old Testament Revival

    “But Jehoiada the priest took a chest, and bored a hole in the lid of it, and set it beside the altar, on the right side as one cometh into the house of the LORD: and the priests that kept the door put therein all the money that was brought into the house of the LORD.” 2 Kings 12:9

    Storehouse = temple
    Keepers of storehouse = ministers of the LORD to God’s people

    Old Testament Apostasy

    “A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.” Malachi 1:6-7

    “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” Malachi 3:8-10

    Storehouse = mine house = temple; cf. Mark 11:17
    Keepers of storehouse = keepers of the temple = ministers of the LORD

    Are ALL ministers in a conference unworthy of tithe? Are ALL ministers in another worthy of tithe? What if Jehoida’s companions somehow were in apostasy as in Malachi’s time and it was withheld then as in Malachi’s time?

    New Testament Apostasy

    “But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.” Luke 20:14

    “And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.” Luke 22:2

    “And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.” Luke 21:1-4

    Treasury = Temple
    Not wicked priests receiving but God.

    New Testament Revival

    “Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.” Acts 4:34-37

    Storehouse = Church visible
    Custodians of the storehouse = Ministers

    Therefore in the Bible we see God’s storehouses and custodians, the church and the leadership, both in apostasy and in revival, where we are called to “cast in unto the offerings of God.” The visible church and leadership. (Acts 4:34-37)

    Does God have a visible church on earth today? Yes. Revelation 10-11; Revelation 14:6-12; Revelation 12:17.

    The remnant church today that keeps the commandments of God and has the faith of Jesus’ testimony is the Seventh-day Adventist church that came from bitter disappointment as did the Christian church. John 20:13; Revelation 10:10-11; Revelation 11:1; Daniel 7:13-14.

    “Do not, by your neglect of duty, increase our financial difficulties.” ibid.
    God bless,

    Rich




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  14. So what comes next, Mr. Paulsen?

    Because God allows sin in the world we should allow same-sex “marriages “ in our professors?

    What about “wine tasting “ classes?

    What about “spiritualism” classes?

    What about worshiping on both Saturday and Sunday so those who worship on Sunday won’t “feel isolated.”

    These are just a few of many options that we have so our youth will get a “well rounded education.” Where do we draw the line?

    Until now I was under the rather quaint understanding that our institutions–ALL of them–were to be a refuge for both our youth, our membership in general– AND “the stranger within our gates.” That, apparently in your eyes, Mr. Paulsen is no longer the case so what is the point of us continuing as SDA’s? It would be so much easier–and far less expensive–to just “throw in the towel” and join the rest of the world in their downward spiral.

    I am beyond outraged by your response to that sincere question by that young person! I would suggest that you resign immediately and let someone who still still believes in a BIBLE-based belief system take the helm–if there still is such a person among the current leadership. (We do have people among us who are true to our Bible-based ideals but, unfortunately, as I see it, they aren’t among the current leadership.) I hope the upcoming General Conference session will make some hard decisions and install leaders who still believe that the BIBLE and the BIBLE ALONE should be our rule of faith!




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  15. I am firmly convinced that belief in any form of evolution, contrary to the express biblical account, is a violation of the fourth commandment. God has said clearly that He created everything in six “evenings and Mornings ‘. If we try to make the claim that He did it any different way we are essentially calling Him a liar. It is just as important to remember the record of creation as
    God expressed it in His word, as it is to remember the day that He set aside for remembering it. The reason for the Sabbath is as important as the Sabbath itself. We can acceptably read the fourth command as “Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy, “because” In six days– Etc. God is the ultimater scientist. We can study what He has done, but when we can’t make it fit our idea of what we consider acceptable, we do not have the right to rewrite God’s word. Donald DeCamp




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  16. Ddonald DeCamp wrote: “I am firmly convinced that belief in any form of evolution, contrary to the express biblical account, is a violation of the fourth commandment.”

    So is rape a behavior that was created–or did it evolve? I don’t believe in macroevolution, but microevolution is a different beast.




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  17. I am fine with “variation within a static genome” such that wild stories about “reptiles turning into birds” are easily seen as being “stories easy enough to make up – but they are not science”.

    I prefer that title “variation within a static genome” because very often in atheist evolutionist lectures “evolution is a fact” and “evolution has been proven to be true – and the Bible proven to be false” are the kinds of “evolution means only Macro evolution” bait and switch marketeering that evolutionists like to practice once the unsuspecting listener is willing to grant the slight of hand “all change is evolution”.

    so I tend to draw the line there – and not give them that starting advantage.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  18. Since His ascension Christ has carried forward His work on the earth by chosen ambassadors, through whom He speaks to the children of men and ministers to their needs. The great Head of the church superintends His work through the instrumentality of men ordained by God to act as His representatives.—AA 360.1

    Christ’s ministers are the spiritual guardians of the people entrusted to their care. Their work has been likened to that of watchmen. In ancient times sentinels were often stationed on the walls of cities, where, from points of vantage, they could overlook important posts to be guarded, and give warning of the approach of an enemy. Upon their faithfulness depended the safety of all within.— AA 360.3

    The church will rarely take a higher stand than is taken by her ministers. We need a converted ministry and a converted people. Shepherds who watch for souls as they that must give account will lead the flock on in paths of peace and holiness. Their success in this work will be in proportion to their own growth in grace and knowledge of the truth.—5T 227.3

    It is seldom that a people rise higher than the minister.— RH, July 30, 1901 par. 6
      
    We must have a converted ministry, and then we shall see the light of God and His power aiding all our efforts.—4T 402.1

    I tell you that there must be a thorough revival among us. There must be a converted ministry. There must be confessions, repentance, and conversions.—21MR 386.4
     
    At the eleventh hour the Lord will gather a company out of the world to serve Him. There will be a converted ministry. Those who have had privileges and opportunities to become intelligent in regard to the truth, and yet who continue to counterwork the work God would have accomplished, will be purged out, for God accepts the service of no man whose interest is divided. He accepts the whole heart, or none.—20MR 320.1
    God bless,

    Rich




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  19. Leadership of the Church is too often an evolutionary process of “survival of the fittest.” Sin not only leads to death, but in the meantime, it leads to weakness and desperation. As long as a “leader” doesn’t stand up for all of the beliefs of the Church, then the members will not be spiritually strong, and certainly not a threat to usurping or threatening the offices of the leadership. Since we are selective in what we stress, and/or enforce, it makes virtually any solid stance a ridiculus one. My observation having spent a lifetime of service to the Church, that only the conscientious and convicted risk their employment in the Church. We as a people are more fearful of “fanaticism” (A fanatic is someone who love God, and obeys God better than we do, than adultery, robbery, rape, of sexual perversion. My understanding of sexual sin is activity of that kind with someone other than a spouse, regardless of the partner’s gender. The 10 Commandments must be a list of suggestions “from above” that, in a practical sense, are to be of concern only because God is only trying to scare people, and actually is going to save everybody anyway. I am amazed at the view of God, which makes it necessary to accept that He cannot re-create people, because He didn’t make them in the first place. Grace ennables Him to overlook sin, but a long process is necessary to become “fit” for heaven. Even Satan himself will and can be saved, because God is obligated due to His weakness to accept anything and everyone, regardless. God’s “tough talk” is supposedly primarily to scare people, because He is actually afraid of us, and powerless to change us. By observation, since we are “democratic” and work through committees (a healthy thing), virtually noone has to are will stand for right “though the heaven’s fall.” I pray that God will supply us with young people who are not afraid, are true to duty, and will lead us to victory. We have camped on the “other side of the river” too long: It is time for a David to go out in the Name of the Lord and deal with the giant.
    Bill Cowin, SDA pastor




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  20. Rich Constantinescu: “A selfish withholding from God will tend to poverty in our own souls. Act your part, my brethren and sisters. God loves you, and He stands at the helm. If the conference business is not managed according to the order of the Lord, that is the sin of the erring ones. The Lord will not hold you responsible for it, if you do what you can to correct the evil. But do not commit sin yourselves by withholding from God His own property. ‘Cursed be he that doeth the work of the negligently,’ or deceitfully. When persons declare that they will not pay their tithes because the means are not used as they think they ought to be, will the elder of the church or the minister sympathize with the sinners? Will he aid the enemy in his work? Or will he, as a wise man, endued with knowledge, go to work to correct the vile, and thus remove the stumbling-block? but, brethren do not be unfaithful in your lot. Stand in your place. Do not, by your neglect of duty, increase our financial difficulties.” Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 1, pp. 27, 28 (Aug. 10, 1890) emphasis supplied.

    At present I am not a member of the conference, but I may join the Carson City SDA church. Your quote about selfishness is out of line.I just told you I pay my tithes and offerings to support God’s work in proclaiming the 3 angels messages.It is my choice whether to pay tithes to a corrupted conference or pay them to independent ministries where the money goes to evangelism. I will not pay for the gross corruption in the church.

    Here locally we have Sabbathbreaking by leadership, theatrics, false gospel, fashion shows, VBS, with hip-hop hymns and dancing for the kiddies, fund-raising concerts on the Sabbath with vendors selling concessions. Drums, dancing, and deviant music styles in worship services. Black history promotions on the Sabbath.

    You may pay your tithe where you please. Your condemning words are not appreciated.




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  21. Steve Billiter: You may pay your tithe where you please. Your condemning words are not appreciated.

    Sorry Steve, but you are incorrect in this view. According to Mrs. White:

    “Some have been dissatisfied and have said: ‘I will not longer pay my tithe, for I have no confidence in the way things are managed at the heart of the work.’

    “But will you rob God because you think the management of the work is not right? Make your complaint, plainly and openly, in the right spirit, to the proper ones. Send in your petitions for things to be adjusted and set in order, but do not withdraw from the work of God and prove unfaithful because others are not doing right.”–9T 249.

    “That portion that God has reserved for Himself is not to be diverted to any other purpose than that which He has specified. Let none feel at liberty to retain their tithe, to use according to their own judgment. They are not to use it for themselves in an emergency, nor to apply it as they see fit, even in what they may regard as the Lord’s work.”–9T 247.

    “A very plain, definite message has been given to me for our people. I am bidden to tell them that they are making a mistake in applying the tithe to various objects which, though good in themselves, are not the object to which the Lord has said that the tithe should be applied. Those who make this use of the tithe are departing from the Lord’s arrangement. God will judge for these things.”–9T 248.

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  22. Steve Billiter: Your condemning words are not appreciated.

    I believe the counsel of Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 1, pp. 27, 28 (Aug. 10, 1890) but cannot accept credit for it. Scripture evidence that the redirection/withholding of tithe from the church-visible is encouraged by reason of apostasy would be relevant to damage-control if that is a proposed method.
    God bless,

    Rich




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  23. Sean Pitman, M.D.: Sorry Steve, but you are incorrect in this view. According to Mrs. White:

    No you are wrong Sean. Would you like to tell me that Amazing Facts and It is Written are not supportive of the General Conference and Adventist missions? Both Shawn Boonstra and Doug Batchelor are conference credentialed Pastors, as well as the members of their staff.

    My money goes directly to teaching and preaching the 3 angels messages and all the Adventist pillars of faith. Your EGW quotes are out of context. No such hybrid ministries like these existed in her time. The severe apostasy in the church now makes necessary these kinds of ministries.

    The tithe that I give now to the Rome campaign goes directly into bringing converts into the conference. None of my money goes to the corruption and the apostasy such as at LSU, and Loma Linda to pay such salaries like Dr. Julius Nam, Associate Professor of Theology, at LL who denies publically most of Paul’s writings on the atonement, and openly promotes homosexuality.

    How much of your money goes to this corruption while you throw stones at people who spend their tithe in a better way?

    What part of my post in which I said I am not a conference member at this particular time did you not understand?

    Here is your last EGW in its context showing your misapplication.

    God desires all His stewards to be exact in following divine arrangements. They are not to offset the Lord’s plans by performing some deed of charity, or giving some gift or some offering, when or how they, the human agents, shall see fit. It is a very poor policy for men to seek to improve on God’s plan, and invent a makeshift, averaging up their good impulses on this and that occasion, and offsetting them against God’s requirements. God calls upon all to give their influence to His own arrangement. He has made His plan
    102
    known; and all who would cooperate with Him must carry out this plan, instead of daring to attempt an improvement on it. {CS 101.3}
    The Lord instructed Moses, for Israel, “Thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always.” Exodus 27:20. This was to be a continual offering that the house of God might be properly supplied with that which was necessary for His service. His people today are to remember that the house of worship is the Lord’s property, and that it is to be scrupulously cared for. But the funds for this work are not to come from the tithe. {CS 102.1}

    A very plain, definite message has been given to me for our people. I am bidden to tell them that they are making a mistake in applying the tithe to various objects which, though good in themselves, are not the object to which the Lord has said that the tithe should be applied. Those who make this use of the tithe are departing from the Lord’s arrangement. God will judge for these things. {CS 102.2}

    She is plainly speaking of “charities” and other misdirections of tithes that “while good in themselves.”

    Please use EGW’s writings correctly.

    My tithe is going exactly where God wants it to go.




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  24. Rich Constantinescu: I believe the counsel of Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 1, pp. 27, 28 (Aug. 10, 1890) but cannot accept credit for it. Scripture evidence that the redirection/withholding of tithe from the church-visible is encouraged by reason of apostasy would be relevant to damage-control if that is a proposed method.
    God bless,

    You used EGW like a sledgehammer accusing me of selfishness.

    And you still act like its business as usual.




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  25. Ron, we can debate with these people till the cows come home, it won’t do any good. Time to pray and let it go. By the time we go on time consuming crusades refuting all this apostasy, there’s less time for the real work.

    LSU is far from the only corruption around, its everywhere.

    Since most of the NAD conference is corrupted and do not preach the 3 angels messages, or stand on our solid platforms of truth, then someone else needs to do the work they are not doing, namely us.

    When apostasy abounds and others spend copious amounts of time debating and refuting, its win win for the devil, as he has everyone tied up in knots.




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  26. @Steve Billiter:
    You used EGW like a sledgehammer

    From the Spalding and Megan collection we learned that Ellen White gave a portion of her own tithes to independant ministries and also defended the right of other contemporary Adventists who did the same thing.

    Some have argued that these were special cases – but Ellen White was clear on one thing “the storehouse of the Lord” was not limited to the conference treasury.

    I don’t say this to discourage anyone from giving to their conference or Union as the Lord leads them. I am just stating a fact of history.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  27. Steve Billiter: You used EGW like a sledgehammer accusing me of selfishness.

    I pointed out three things with my February 21, 2010 post:

    1. If a conference qualifies for a member, that same conference qualifies for the tithe of that member.

    2. The SOP discourages the withholding of tithe from conferences if, “the conference business is not managed according to the order of the Lord.” Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 1, pp. 27, 28 (Aug. 10, 1890)

    3. The Bible records church apostasies and revivals in the Old and New Testaments showing tithe under the approval and mandate of God being brought to visible church leaders. (Cf. 2 Kings 12:9; Malachi 1:6, 7; Malachi 3:8, 9, 10; Mark 11:17; Luke 20:14; Luke 22:2; Luke 21:1-2, 3-4; Acts 4:34, 35, 36, 37)

    What I post, I post for everyone to see. I’m sorry if I offended anyone with what I see as plain truth. There are faithful mixed with unfaithful ministers and workers. Increasing, “our financial hardships” should not be our business, however good may be our intentions. Ibid.

    Blood transfusions must happen between one body and another as tithe was sent in special circumstances to other places but only in special circumstances, and not as a solution for disease.
    God bless,

    Rich




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  28. BobRyan:
    From the Spalding and Megan collection we learned that Ellen White gave a portion of her own tithes to independant ministries and also defended the right of other contemporary Adventists who did the same thing.Some have argued that these were special cases – but Ellen White was clear on one thing “the storehouse of the Lord” was not limited to the conference treasury.I don’t say this to discourage anyone from giving to their conference or Union as the Lord leads them. I am just stating a fact of history.in Christ,Bob  

    Bob,
    You need to stop listening to independent ministry propaganda. Ellen White did not give tithe to ‘independent ministries.’ Her special use of tithe was applied to denominationally recognized ministers who were poverty stricken and destitute because conference administrators(who had been notified by her)were not responding to their needs. She did not encourage anyone else to follow her example On the contrary she discouraged others from following her special emergency example(‘I would not advise that anyone should make a practice of gathering up tithe money… I write to you so that you shall keep cool and not become stirred up and give publicity to this matter, lest any more follow their example.’Watson Letter). This was ‘Her special work.’ Not the special work of others. She made no clear statements that the storehouse also represented independent ministries. She does equate the ‘storehouse’ with the conference treasury and refers to it as ‘God’s treasury.’

    “The portion that God has reserved for Himself is not to be diverted to any other purpose than that which He has specified. Let none feel at liberty to retain their tithe, to use according to their own judgment… nor apply it as they see fit, even in what they may regard as the Lord’s work… But a great mistake is made when the tithe is drawn from the object for which it is to be used – the support of the ministers… The tithe is sacred, reserved by God for Himself. It is to be brought into the treasury to be used to sustain the gospel laborers in their work. For a long time the Lord has been robbed because there are those who do not realize that the tithe is God’s reserved portion. Some have been dissatisfied and have said: ‘I will not longer pay my tithe, for I have no confidence in the way things are managed at the heart of the work.’ But will you rob God because you think the management of the work is not right? Make your complaint, plainly and openly, in the right spirit, to the proper ones. Send you petitions for things to be adjusted and set in order; but do not withdraw from the work of God, and prove unfaithful, because others are not doing right… If our churches will take their stand upon the Lord’s Word and be faithful in paying their tithe into His treasury, more laborers will be encouraged to take up ministerial work…” – 9T 247-250

    “If the Conference business is not managed according to the order of the Lord, that is the sin of the erring ones. The Lord will not hold you responsible for it, if you do not correct the evil. but do not commit sin yourselves by withholding from God His own property.” – Special Testimonies Series A, no.1 p.27

    Apparently God’s property is meant to be managed by the Conference. The work of the conference presidents and treasurers is to see ‘that a faithful tithe is brought into the treasury.’ TM p.305

    “The tithes and offerings are not the property of man,… unworthy ministers may receive some of the means thus raised; but dare anyone, because of this, withhold from the treasury and brave the curse of God?”
    – Special Testimonies Series A no.1 p.27




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  29. The independt ministries are not providing substantial relief to Haiti, Chili or other areas of catastrophe around the globe. They are not supporting elementry, secondary and tertiary education around the globe, orr the worship services most of us attend on a weekly bases. Nor are they supporting my education or that of thousands of other SDA studets at our colleges. I appreciate the quotes from Ellen White to continue giving to the conferences reggardles of their mistakes. Thank you for sharingt. When I have a thriving income I’m going to be faithful with my tithe.




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  30. @BobRyan:

    From the Spalding and Megan collection we learned that Ellen White gave a portion of her own tithes to independant ministries and also defended the right of other contemporary Adventists who did the same thing.

    Some have argued that these were special cases – but Ellen White was clear on one thing “the storehouse of the Lord” was not limited to the conference treasury.

    I don’t say this to discourage anyone from giving to their conference or Union as the Lord leads them. I am just stating a fact of history.

    Having said that – I repeat – I am not arguing for anyone to send tithe dollars to this independant ministry or to that one. I am just pointing to a historic fact.

    @Victor Marshall:

    Bob,
    You need to stop listening to independent ministry propaganda. Ellen White did not give tithe to ‘independent ministries.’ Her special use of tithe was applied to denominationally recognized ministers who were poverty stricken and destitute because conference administrators(who had been notified by her)were not responding to their needs.

    You are right to observe that some of those that Ellen White gave both her tithe dollars – and other people’s tithe dollars — to, were in fact retired ministers – licensed by the Adventist church.

    Many of the independant ministries today – are also staffed by licensed SDA ministers.

    Other projects that Ellen White devoted tithe dollars to – included unfunded missions in the South, as well as independant missionary and evangelistic work done by pastor’s wives without pay.

    @Victor Marshall:

    She did not encourage anyone else to follow her example On the contrary she discouraged others from following her special emergency example(‘I would not advise that anyone should make a practice of gathering up tithe money… I write to you so that you shall keep cool and not become stirred up and give publicity to this matter, lest any more follow their example.’Watson Letter). This was ‘Her special work.’ Not the special work of others.

    It is odd that you would quote that – because that same letter includes specific examples of other Adventists asking Ellen White to help them redirect their tithes outside of the conference treasury.

    Some cases have been kept before me for years, and I have supplied their needs from the tithe, as God has instructed me to do. And if any person shall say to me, Sister White, will you appropriate my tithe where you know it is most needed, I shall say, Yes, I will; and I have done so. I commend those sisters who have placed their tithe where it is most needed to help to do a work that is being left undone; and if this matter is given publicity, it will create knowledge which would better be left as it is. I do not care to give publicity to this work which the Lord has appointed me to do, and others to do .

    I send this matter to you so that you shall not make a mistake. Circumstances alter cases. I would not advise that any should make a practice of gathering up tithe money. But for years there have now and then been persons who have lost confidence in the appropriation of the tithe who have placed their tithe in my hands, and said that if I did not take it they would themselves appropriate it to the families of the most needy minister they could find. I have taken the money, given a receipt for it, and told them how it was appropriated.

    Thus Ellen White indicates that this mechanism involved redirecting not only her own tithes – but the tithes of others as well.

    As for ministries not funded by the conference –

    Dear Brn. Evans, Smith, and Jones: —
    I received your letter, and will write a few lines now. . . . . . . . . . {SpM 117.2}
    There are ministers’ wives, Sisters Starr, Haskell, Wilson and Robinson, who have been devoted, earnest, whole-souled workers, giving Bible readings and praying with families, helping along by personal efforts just as successfully as their husbands. These women give their whole time, and are told that they receive nothing for their labors because their husbands receive their wages. I tell them to go forward and all such decisions shall be reversed. The Word says, “The laborer is worthy of his hire.” When any such decision as this is made, I will in the name of the Lord, protest. I will feel it in my duty to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women

    As for Ellen White standing in bold defense of others who were redirecting tithe dollars to unfunded ministries in the south.

    In regard to the colored work in the South, that field has been and is still being robbed of the means that should come to the workers of that field. If there has been cases where our sisters have appropriated their tithe to the support of the ministers working for the colored people in the South, let every man, if he is wise, hold his peace.

    @Victor Marshall:

    She made no clear statements that the storehouse also represented independent ministries. She does equate the ’storehouse’ with the conference treasury and refers to it as ‘God’s treasury.’

    I agree that Ellen White clearly identified the conference treasury as one of the valid examples of the “Lord’s Storehouse” – but she explicitly stated it was not the ONLY example of it.

    I have myself appropriated my tithe to the most needy cases brought to my notice. I have been instructed to do this; and as the money is not withheld from the Lord’s treasury, it is not a matter that should be commented upon; for it will necessitate my making known these matters, which I do not desire to do, because it is not best.

    Thus Ellen White argues that tithe funds redirected to unfunded ministries in the South, and to minister’s wives who elected to conduct their own independent ministries, and to retired ministers who were not being funded by the conference – none of those examples of “redirection” was a case of money not going to the Lord’s Storehouse according to Ellen White.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  31. BobRyan: Thus Ellen White argues that tithe funds redirected to unfunded ministries in the South, and to minister’s wives who elected to conduct their own independent ministries, and to retired ministers who were not being funded by the conference – none of those examples of “redirection” was a case of money not going to the Lord’s Storehouse according to Ellen White.

    That is excellent material, Brother Bob. We may notice that, “none of these [three] examples of ‘redirection'” done or encouraged by E.G.W. was because of Conference apostasy or mismanagement of funds.

    God loves you, and He stands at the helm. If the conference business is not managed according to the order of the Lord, that is the sin of the erring ones. The Lord will not hold you responsible for it, if you do what you can to correct the evil. But do not commit sin yourselves by withholding from God His own property. Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 1, pp. 27, 28 (Aug. 10, 1890) emphasis supplied.

    The reason that justifies the said unusual pattern of giving in the midst of all the counsel given on this subject, both Biblically and through the testimony of the Spirit of God, is not leverage against our leaders.
    God bless,

    Rich




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  32. I’m glad I’m not a pastor. i would have a very difficult time with these kinds of remarks from church members. I dont think their healthy at all for the body of Christ.




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  33. @BobRyan:

    Bob,
    I knew that you would respond with a more thorough and articulate research analysis of the tithe issues. I have to confess that applying the term ‘independent ministry’ to pastors wives strikes me as pushing it a bit. My own wife is my co-laborer in every aspect of pastoral/evangelistic ministry, and she would never use that term to describe what she does. I do think that many pastors wives should be paid from the tithe resources for what they do(of course Ellen White taught that). That would not make them an ‘independent ministry.’

    In today’s context, when we think of an ‘independent ministry’ receiving tithe, we think of organizations who have adopted an independent spirit, theology, and policy from that which is approved by the church at large. We think of organizations who are at odds with the church.

    The term that is often preferred for para-church organizations who conduct themselves in harmony with the main church’s policies is ’supporting ministry.’ Many of these organizations belong to umbrella groups such as ASI and OCI. The reception of tithe is not acceptable for membership in either of these organizations. Ex.
    “OCI members refuse to solicit or to accept tithe from Seventh-day Adventist church members.”

    Neither of these two major Adventist organizations, or their individual member groups, believe that Ellen White’s statements quoted above justify their receiving tithe money at all – even though they are ’supporting ministries’ of the church. One cardinal principle that makes them ’supporting’ is their refusal to receive tithe.

    If we accept these definitions, then Ellen White did not receive and direct tithe toward ‘independent ministries’.
    The fact that she did not want this practice made known is extremely telling. By widely commenting on the practice on the worldwide web (even implying that others might be justified in following her example) – we are going contrary to her wishes.

    Finally, you quote Ellen White saying the following:

    “I have myself appropriated my tithe to the most needy cases brought to my notice. I have been instructed to do this; and as the money is not withheld from the Lord’s treasury, it is not a matter that should be commented upon…”

    You comment by saying that this quote is an example of Ellen White explicitly stating that the ‘Lord’s Storehouse’ could be something other than the conference treasury. This seems to be pushing it a bit too. This quote only supports the conclusion that the prophet herself could be considered a part of the Lord’s treasury as she personally received and directed tithe toward bonafide ministries in financial crisis.

    Perhaps now you can understand why your previous statements could be easily misunderstood and misapplied:

    “Ellen White gave a portion of her own tithes to independant ministries and also defended the right of other contemporary Adventists who did the same thing”
    In other words Ellen White gave tithes to organizations who were at odds with the main denomination. She also defended the right of Adventists to apply their tithes to the ministry of their choice – even ‘independent’ ones.

    “Ellen White was clear on one thing “the storehouse of the Lord” was not limited to the conference treasury”
    In other words, since the the storehouse analogy was not limited – it could be applied to ‘independent’ ministries!




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  34. Whats the “official” church position? I remember learning that tithe must only go to the church. If so should anyone be bucking that? Does the churhc fire those who fail to pay tithe or have divergent views? Just curios.




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  35. @Geanna Dane:
    Most of my experience is in state prison chaplaincy – though I am also a church pastor as well. This is how I understand the church’s position from my relatively limited experience. I’m sure the other pastors who post here could correct me if I say something incorrect.

    The returning of tithe is not a ‘test of fellowship’. This means that for an individual to be a member in good standing they do not have to pay tithe. On the other hand, baptismal vow number 9 asks the question, ‘Is it your purpose to support the church by your tithes and offerings?’ Tithing is strongly encouraged for those who join the church but it is not mandatory.

    Though it is not a test of fellowship, it is a test of leadership. To be ordained or elected to an office, one should be a tithe payer. The church manual says this regarding church officers:
    ‘Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office.’

    Knowledge of individual members stewardship habits should be kept confidential with the church pastor and treasurer unless some issue mandates others should know – for example with a church nominating committee that needs to know whether a person is eligible for election.
    I’m guessing at least in theory, conferences or union leadership etc. could terminate those who are receiving tithe as salary, yet who are not also returning tithe themselves.

    When it comes to larger organizations and ministries that are not authorized to receive tithe; it is very difficult for any authoritative wing of the church to monitor whether these organizations are receiving tithe – or to discipline them for doing so. If an organization is openly doing so – this usually indicates that this group is ‘independent’ and ‘under the frown of the church.’

    From a spiritual perspective, the Bible, and especially the Spirit of Prophecy, indicate that it is a serious transgression to retain, misuse, or otherwise divert God’s money for personal use or toward a personally preferred purpose. One of the primary purposes of the exercise is to have us surrender complete control over one tenth of our means so that it is no longer considered ours at all. To use it ourselves (for whatever purpose) is a form of robbery. A similar principle is at work with the Sabbath. One seventh of our time is completely surrendered to God. It is no longer our time to do with as we wish – it is now the Lord’s. To use it for purposes other than which God has designated it may also be viewed as a form of robbery.




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  36. “What he was careful not to state – is that as the figurehead of leadership in our church Paulsen and NAD presidents had a huge degree of influence with church members and by voicing their outright disapproval of this or that institution – they could “clarify the issue” for would be parents and students of those institutions, AND he could influence constituent voters associated with the various unions that were mismanaging their duties. Saying any of that would be “the rest of the story” and would be laying at least “some” of the responsibility at his own door.”

    We seem to have gotten off the track onto tithing and this seems to be hardly a venue for such a discussion.

    I firmly believe that both the GC President and NAD President could, thru their influence, cause the University to take the necessary action to insure that evolution is not given a favored position in any of the curriculum.




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  37. @Victor Marshall:

    Victor Marshall says:
    March 10, 2010 @BobRyan:

    Bob,
    I knew that you would respond with a more thorough and articulate research analysis of the tithe issues. I have to confess that applying the term ‘independent ministry’ to pastors wives strikes me as pushing it a bit. My own wife is my co-laborer in every aspect of pastoral/evangelistic ministry, and she would never use that term to describe what she does. I do think that many pastors wives should be paid from the tithe resources for what they do(of course Ellen White taught that). That would not make them an ‘independent ministry.’

    Is your wife listed as an empoyee of the church simply by virtue of marriage – does she get a W2 or does she take “assignments” from the conference or the Union? Is it ok for church members to redirect their tithes directly to paying “your wife”?

    Suppose for example she were to start a bible study group with the women in her neighborhood, or start publishing a Christian magazine, or a TV program or a Radio “Bible Answers” program – all on her own. Could we then divert tithe funds directly to her and not call that an “independent ministry” simply because she is also your wife?

    In any case – you see the sticky wicket this creates.

    My point is not to argue for tithe funds sent to this or that independant ministry.

    It is simply to point out that the problem is not the tiddy little thing that is sometimes presented.

    The term that is often preferred for para-church organizations who conduct themselves in harmony with the main church’s policies is ’supporting ministry.’ Many of these organizations belong to umbrella groups such as ASI and OCI. The reception of tithe is not acceptable for membership in either of these organizations. Ex.
    “OCI members refuse to solicit or to accept tithe from Seventh-day Adventist church members.”

    I believe it is a matter of record that as of the 1970’s all of the major SDA supporting ministries (Faith for Today, It is Written, Amazing Facts, VOP) were accepting Tithe dollars. The “policy” of the GC Exec Committee adopted in 1980 was directly opposed to the practice that Ellen White had not only of redirecting her own tithe funds – but also of accepting tithes of other members for the specifically stated purpose of redirecting them and also defending other contemporaries who sent their own tithes directly to unfunded Adventist ministries – not even going through Ellen White to do it.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  38. BobRyan said –
    “What he was careful not to state – is that as the figurehead of leadership in our church Paulsen and NAD presidents had a huge degree of influence with church members and by voicing their outright disapproval of this or that institution – they could “clarify the issue” for would be parents and students of those institutions, AND he could influence constituent voters associated with the various unions that were mismanaging their duties. Saying any of that would be “the rest of the story” and would be laying at least “some” of the responsibility at his own door.”

    @Jere:

    I firmly believe that both the GC President and NAD President could, thru their influence, cause the University to take the necessary action to insure that evolution is not given a favored position in any of the curriculum.

    Agreed. So I don’t think he has the option of justifying innaction regarding this gross level of crisis – that has continued under his presidency – that some of his comments would suppose.

    He is at the top Administrative position and “the buck stops here” is the sign that should be sitting on his desk.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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