379 thoughts on “Board requests progress reports from LSU administration

  1. Wow. In other words, they’re bowing to diplomacy, dragging this issue out and essentially doing nothing. They can reaffirm all they want. Who cares what they think when they allow evil to continue. It’s at least reassuring they support creation, as it seems most of the faculty do not. That’s a plus! We’ll continue to hope the board’s courage grows and it won’t forever shy away from its task of implementing hard-hitting reform.




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  2. This is the paralysis of analysis. The issues they all face are complex and a wrong move could actually hurt individual board members. However, this not the vote from the Spirit of Elijah, who at great personal risk put his finger under the nose of the king of Israel, and declared, “Thou are the man!…” and three and a half years later bellowed out to Israel”Seize them.. and put them to death, and let not one escape you.!”




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  3. “In recognition of the serious and complex nature of this issue, ….”

    Think there’s any possibility they’re leaving a paper trail to avoid lawsuits if someone chooses not to comply?




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  4. This is a step in the right direction. It’s sad that we can’t move faster, but that is how large organizations work. It’s all about fear. Fear of doing the wrong thing, fear of doing anything to fast or upsetting anyone.




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  5. These words from God’s servant seem applicable to the present situation:

    “I have been shown that the most signal victories and the most fearful defeats have been on the turn of minutes. God requires promptness of action. Delays, doubtings, hesitation, and indecision frequently give the enemy every advantage. My brother, you need to reform. The timing of things may tell much in favor of truth. Victories are frequently lost through delays. There will be crises in this cause. Prompt and decisive action at the right time will gain glorious triumphs, while delay and neglect will result in great failures and positive dishonor to God. Rapid movements at the critical moment often disarm the enemy, and he is disappointed and vanquished, for he had expected time to lay plans and work by artifice.” {3T 497.4}




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  6. Is there something in the Nov 2009 board action that is “specific enough” to stop the current all-for-evolutionism agenda of LSU president and biology (and religion) departments?

    For example – “imagine” that the Nov 2009 board action HAD said something as substantive as “all deparment faculty at LSU MUST consist only of those who affirm a literal 7 day creation week as specified in our 28 Fundamental Beliefs and NO classwork that denies or undermines the voted statements of belief of the Seventh-day Adventist church may be require of students”

    THEN asking for a progress report on meeting that clear objective would be “useful” for upper management.

    But given the more nebulous nature of the 2009 board statement – it appears that LSU administration has many creative options for ways to claim “progress”.

    It would be fairly easy for them to come back with a report that said something like “all of our facutly are dedicated Seventh-day Adventist Christians who affirm the faith of our student in all their course-work”.

    Because for the theology and biology departments “faith in evolutionism” is married to Christian beliefs of some kind. A compromise that is achieved by all practicing Theistic Evolutionists in one form or another.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  7. Hopefully the Board and LSU administration will avoid the temptation to play that little game identified in the previous post.

    We continue to remember the problem at LSU in prayer.




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  8. @John Howard:

    Very timely and applicable quote! Thanks.

    I would add this to it as well —

    If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime, and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God” (3T 281).

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  9. Glad you liked it Bob, and of course the one you posted is a great old favorite as well.

    I’m just sitting here laughing at the fact that right now, there’s one “like” vote and one “dislike” vote for the quote I posted. Somebody doesn’t like a cutting, plain-as-day, no-way-to-explain-it-away Ellen G. White quote! Imagine that! 😀




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  10. The Faculty Senate have made this a public issue and by their statement of support for the biology professors they have admitted to the public that evolution is taught and what is worse is that they believe it is fact.
    In my opinion this is an escalation of the controversy by the faculty. The Feb. 11th meeting of the Board of Trustees was their chance to respond but their response was just treading water and therefore they are losing ground.
    It makes people wonder who is in charge at LSU. If I were on the board – I would vote to close down the biology department and tell HR to gather resumes for a completely new department. Please publish the names and contact information of the members of the Board – I want to give them a piece of my mind.
    Mario




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  11. What is accomplished when men fail to stand for God? If truth without love is the approach used, then this is not God’s plan. However, when there is overwhelming evidence that educated men and women who are working for the church or it’s institutions are ignoring loving, firm direction there should not be any hesitation on the part of the Board of Directors or those in leadership positions to remove those that are not following directives from the authority over them. If there is non-compliance from the University President or a teacher then that person should be properly disciplined and/or discharged. What is wrong with a good house cleaning? Tenure should not be an obstacle for removing a non-cooperative personality, if necessary. Also intellectual snobbery, and being above counsel should never be tolerated in the work place, especially in our institutions of higher learning. God can’t be pleased with a fearful response to obvious error! As Seventh-day Adventist leaders are faced with these tough situations that pertain to basic Biblical truths such as creation, theistic evolution or evolution in any form, it is important to avoid a knee jerk response – but action is required. If action is not taken then games are being played. God wants men of action – not puppets. Our young people deserve to be trained to be God’s men and women, never should they be immersed in error which is being presented as truth. If we don’t have young men and women properly trained how can Jesus coming be hastened?




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  12. Does the board still not understand that it’s the administration that hired these teachers and is the one protecting them now.
    Any reports are going to be in the same tread as the ones already given.
    They will continue to say that no problem exists and that they are doing great things at LSU. The last part is true but is no excuse for teaching error. Sin is almost always mixed with truth to hide it’s true charactor. As Ellen White said in John’s post above, this is just giving LSU more time to come up with ways to avoid having to change their teaching style.




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  13. I think it will be in the hands of the students to take action. They are the ones paying tuition and paying the instructors. So students, it is up to you to question and call out the instructor, stand up , if they are taking the creation/evolution stance.
    You cannot strattle the fence. You cannot teach evolution or any part of it in GODS insitutions. If I were a student I would stand and say,”how dare you teach this!” “Why are you here in this instituion”? God will not stand for this and neither should you! Make them teach what they should or make them feel uncomfortable in thier classes!They don’t belong there if they believe something else! Go to a secular school and teach!




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  14. The support of evolution is the support of communism, marxism, fascism, progressivism, narcissism, and is a denial of the garden of eden and the fall of man, ultimately leading to the rejection of the plan of salvation and the sacrifice of Christ… this is no small issue, it is the very essence of Christianity; backpedaling on these issues is nothing more than ignorance in its most arrogant form.




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  15. I still think the Church should close LSU, and sell the property. The damage is done and it is unrepairable. Then we need to clean house and ensure that all educators in the Adventist Education system is promoting the beliefs of our faith in God.

    This issue has dragged on way too long, and the longer it continues the bigger the damage is.

    How many students have turned away from God because of this school. How many more students are we going to lose? LSU doesn’t have the will to deal with this problem; and to me that means their leaders lack the faith in God and in our Church, to do the correct actions.

    Some may find my words harsh and a bit overbearing, which maybe true, but the lack of reaction from LSU is a slap in face to the Adventist Church.




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  16. Obviously, the Board is playing a game of some kind rather than taking decisive action. If it were to be truly transparent why doesn’t it say that they are boxed in by tenure if that is the case? Transparency seems to be lacking in this institution.

    Does anyone on this blog know exactly the wording of the document that grants tenure? It would seem there would be an escape clause in cases where the prof has gotten far off track.




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  17. That’s a good question Jere. I too wonder how LSU’s documents pertaining to tenure are worded. Even the secular state-supported university where I teach has limits on the protection that tenure provides. From the faculty manual at my institution:

    “A faculty member who is the beneficiary of institutional guarantees of tenure shall enjoy protection against unjust and arbitrary application of disciplinary penalties. During the period of such guarantees, the faculty member may be discharged or suspended from employment or diminished in rank only for reasons of incompetence, neglect of duty, or misconduct of such a nature as to indicate that the individual is unfit to continue as a member of the faculty.”

    So certainly there are justifications for terminating the employment of tenured professors even at secular universities, and the bar hasn’t really been set all that high. I would think that the teaching of evolution as fact at an SDA institution qualifies as “incompetence, neglect of duty, or misconduct of such a nature as to indicate that the individual is unfit to continue as a member of the faculty.” And I would hope that LSU has similar language / measures in place. Their standards should be set at least as high as those found at a secular school.




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  18. Ah, here we go. This wasn’t too hard to find; the La Sierra University Faculty Handbook is online at

    http://www.lasierra.edu/administration/provost/files/FacultyHandbook.pdf

    From Part III, Section 3, page 40:

    Tenure is an affirmation that the faculty member has shown evidence of personal and professional development during the pre-tenure probationary period, aspires to continue this development, accepts and embraces the mission and standards of La Sierra University, and accepts the responsibility to work in spirit and in deed for the support of its mission.

    (a) Criteria for Tenure

    :::::

    (8) The candidate must demonstrate commitment to the mission and standards of La Sierra University.

    And from Part III, Section 6, page 78:

    (b) Termination for Cause

    (1) Adequate cause for a termination will be related, directly and substantially, to the fitness of faculty members as teachers or researchers at La Sierra University. A faculty member may be terminated only for conduct that violates university policies as set forth in this handbook and significantly impairs the University’s ability to function.

    (2) Grounds for Termination for Cause

    (i) Refusal or neglect of responsibility, or obvious incompetence.

    (ii) Serious personal or professional misconduct such as dishonesty or sexual misconduct.

    (iii) Deliberate and serious violation of the rights and freedoms of other faculty members, administrators, or students.

    (iv) Conviction of a felonious crime directly related to the faculty member’s fitness to practice his/her profession.

    (v) Flagrant and overt disharmony with or subversion of the philosophy, objectives, and lifestyle expectations of this Seventh-day Adventist university as determined by the Board of Trustees and delineated in its current mission statement.

    So it’s very plain, especially that last part. Since this is all in writing, and forms part of the contract entered into by all LSU faculty; and since the Board has gone on record publicly as stating that the teaching of evolution as a fact is inimical to the mission of LSU; the leadership at LSU is free and clear in a legal sense when it comes to the firing of those who continue to teach such incompatible heresy in the classroom. Terminated professors might file suit, but they can’t win.




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  19. Let’s be honest now–how long would “Catholic” teacher who believed and taught the seventh-day Sabbath and who taught it along with the belief that Sunday worship was a mark of the beast last in a Catholic college? “Academic Freedom?”
    Forget it!!! (Even the thought sounds pretty silly, doesn’t it!)




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  20. If I have a choice to send my kids to a “Christian” university that teaches Darwinian evolution as fact, or a secular university that does the same, I will send them to a secular institution each and every time. At least they will recognize that such teaching is NOT Christian. This is very, very sad. At one time, Adventist scientists were at the forefront of Creation science. What happened?




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  21. The LSU Board’s affirmation supporting the SDA stand on Biblical creationism is a step in the right direction. But it is only an affirmation in words, not in action. Therefore, I would like to kindly suggest that the LSU Board promptly exercise adequate displinary action to eliminate the teaching of Darwinian Evolution as a scientific fact in the LSU classrooms. Those professors that cannot tolerate SDA beliefs on this subject should be honest and mature enough to voluntarily remove themselves from LSU employment for the sake of the students.




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  22. I consider this A STEP in the right direction. However, the statement is far too open-ended.

    ONE: Just exactly WHAT do they want to see happen?

    TWO: WHEN do they expect to see action taken? No time limit is established. LSU could effectively wait until this errant professor(s) has retired, then hire someone that fits the standards already established.

    MY QUESTION: How many more students do they want to be influenced to disbelieve, and wash out of truth, before action is taken? For how many souls lost do they want to take responsibility??

    Thank you for your consideration.

    Shirley Heisey




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  23. Thanks, John Howard, for locating the tenure agreement. Having read the pertinent parts it seems to this writer quite evident that the Board and the LSU President are dragging their feet.

    In the recent GYC session in KY Mike Ryan, a VP of the GC, contended that Christ waited year after year to expose Judas. It was, as I recall, in the context of taking action with respect to situations within the church. I know of no proof that Judas was presenting error and Ryan’s using the expression “year after year” I believe implies we should indulge these profs year after year. And, with all due respect to his position, I consider Mike Ryan as comparing apples with oranges.

    There is no doubt in my mind that profs teaching error *must* be removed unless they have a change of heart and mind.




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  24. The issue is serious but not at all complex. The Bible leaves no doubt as to the fact that God is the Creator who can speak things into existence; and that He did so during the six 24-hour days of creation as recorded in Genesis Chapter 1. Anyone supporting evolution needs to think again as he/she is rejecting not only clear biblical truth but indeed also the beliefs of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Fairness suggests that evolutionists should not speak or teach on behalf of the said Church. In general it is always wrong to accept payment for teaching beliefs and theories opposed to the teachings of the Church.




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  25. There is no doubt in my mind that profs teaching error *must* be removed unless they have a change of heart and mind.  ONE: Just exactly WHAT do they want to see happen?
    TWO: WHEN do they expect to see action taken? No time limit is established. LSU could effectively wait until this errant professor(s) has retired, then hire someone that fits the standards already established.
    MY QUESTION: How many more students do they want to be influenced to disbelieve, and wash out of truth, before action is taken? For how many souls lost do they want to take responsibility??
    Those professors that cannot tolerate SDA beliefs on this subject should be honest and mature enough to voluntarily remove themselves from LSU employment for the sake of the students.  

    Let’s be honest now–how long would “Catholic” teacher who believed and taught the seventh-day Sabbath and who taught it along with the belief that Sunday worship was a mark of the beast last in a Catholic college? “Academic Freedom?”
Forget it!!! (Even the thought sounds pretty silly, doesn’t it!)  
    John Howard sent in some good reading material in which I agree very much on his end quote.

    THEY NEED TO MOVE ON THIS – TOO MUCH TIME IS BEING GIVEN TO SOMETHING THAT IS SO OBVIOUSLY WRONG IN OUR SCHOOL

    And from Part III, Section 6, page 78:
    (b) Termination for Cause
    (1) Adequate cause for a termination will be related, directly and substantially, to the fitness of faculty members as teachers or researchers at La Sierra University. A faculty member may be terminated only for conduct that violates university policies as set forth in this handbook and significantly impairs the University’s ability to function.

    (2) Grounds for Termination for Cause
    (v) Flagrant and overt disharmony with or subversion of the philosophy, objectives, and lifestyle expectations of this Seventh-day Adventist university as determined by the Board of Trustees and delineated in its current mission statement.




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  26. It is one thing to affirm the SDA view of creation, it is another to take action. This and any other professor teaching evolution needs to go.
    I little less talk and lot more action please!




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  27. Let’s face it, the board, the administration, the faculty senate–they are all thumbing their noses at the SDA church. This is a delaying tactic. They are hoping that we will go away and leave them alone to do things their own way. (Fat chance!) My guess is that the majority of the board are actually in compliance with the professors and also believe in TE.

    As to the comment about Jesus and His working with Judas, this is entirely different. Judas had secret sins. Even his fellow disciples didn’t know what Judas was up to–only God knew his heart. What is happening at LSU is open rebellion. It needs to be dealt with immediately to stop the bleed of young people being shuttled out of the church.

    My message to the members of the board:
    You need to either get the integrity to do what is right at once, or leave your position. Please remember that you have a God to answer to. If you don’t put a stop to this immediately you will be responsible to God for the souls that are lost as a result of this heresy being taught in this institution.

    There is a quotation in Early Writings that you need to think about.It is in the section entitled “The Earth Desolated”, which describes what happens on the earth after Christ has returned and taken His people to heaven.

    “The false shepherds had been the signal objects of Jehovah’s wrath. Their eyes had consumed away in their holes, and their tongues in their mouths, while they stood upon their feet.”–Early Writings P.289-290

    You dare not delay in correcting this situation, if you are to escape this horrible punishment.

    Faith




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  28. @John Howard:
    This an excellent tenure statement. I wish pastors had the same level of protection/job security! They can be fired “without cause” – at least that is the case in SECC. There seems no doubt that if indeed LSU policy excludes the promotion of the evolutionary theory of origins, this tenure policy certainly should provide ample opportunity to dismiss any professor who rejects and contravenes that policy.




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  29. This is clearly part of the last great battle for truth within the confines of our SDA Church. A refusal to stand on the error of Darwinian Evolution lays the foundation for the rejection of the 7th Day Sabbath of the 10 Commandments. Accept and teach evolution = Reject the 4th Commandment and prepare to receive the Mark of the Beast. Thank God for those with the courage to stand by the sacred truths give to Moses and Mankind on Tablets of Stone.




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  30. My opinion regarding this matter is that the board is merely using a decoy method in an attempt to deceive the concerned members of the SDA church into thinking that they are applying pressure. Their statement is not strong enough to elicit any kind of action from the faculty of LSU. Why does not the SDA church leadership step in and take action against this travesty?




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  31. My opinion regarding this matter is that the board is merely using a decoy method in an attempt to deceive the concerned members of the SDA church into thinking that they are applying pressure. Their statement is not strong enough to elicit any kind of action from the faculty of LSU. Why does not the SDA church leadership step in and take action against this travesty?




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  32. BILLIE: I think it will be in the hands of the students to take action. They are the ones paying tuition and paying the instructors. So students, it is up to you to question and call out the instructor, stand up , if they are taking the creation/evolution stance.

    It would be great if the students would make a stand in the class contrary to the teachings on Evolution. No doubt there are some who have attempted to do so. In the next paragraph I talk about some who did try. It is difficult for the student who has gone into debt for the classes in question to go as far as to drop the class (which was not what was being implied for the student to do in the quote above. This is just what some might think the student should do.) and pay to take it all over again a second time. I wonder if it would be a better idea that those who might be wanting to support and encourage the students to make such a stand also be willing to donate the financial backing for them as well. Just thinking out loud.

    It is far easier for those who haven’t taken the class to not take it or take it somewhere else than for someone already financially committed to make a the stand. Praise the Lord if they do but… I believe there is a better way from other sources than the ones who have already paid out the money. The Collage already has the money so there doesn’t seem to be much impact from the student’s position at that point.

    About 10 years ago I have had members of my church who were attending La Sierra come to me asking what they should do about this problem of the teachers teaching Evolution in their class. They said that there was no recourse for them to take. The teacher would basically ignore them on the subject and any attempt they made to talk with the faculty was also snubbed. And now, 10 years later we are seeing that the problem has not been dealt with. Have the Board of Trustees done enough with their reaffirmation statement? Not even close!




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  33. How long to you think the owners of “Coke” would put up with one of it’s employees blatantly praising the value and taste of “Pepsi”? I don’t care if the person were the favorite son or daughter of the founder I can assure you they wouldn’t last long as a “Coke” employee! I can also assure you a similar situation in any worldly enterprise would meet with the same results–pronto! Truly, the workers of the world are wiser in their day than “the children of light!”

    None of us are perfect and we all have our own spiritual battles to fight so we do need to exercise Christian charity in all cases.–and we need to be MUCH IN PRAYER. (This is God’s battle–not ours.) Nevertheless, God works through His people and expects all of us to call sin by it’s right name and deal with the “Achan’s” in the camp–which we seem to be very reluctant to do. It seems to me that over 20 years (as I understand it) of not dealing with this group of “Achan’s” far exceeds the time it should take to deal with it. Where, as a church that claims to be preaching the “everlasting gospel” in the “end times” draw the line and say: “This line and NO FURTHER!” “If not this–what? If not now, when?”

    Perhaps it is time for the “rank and file” to start cleaning house at the “top” and put in some leaders who will have the intestinal fortitude to deal with these (and other such issues) in a forthright manner. I’m sure we have such men and women in this great movement and I’m equally sure God will give us the wisdom to find them.

    A candid look at the world we live in cannot help but tell us that the final events are just upon us and the “shaking” foretold may already have begun. At this time in our world’s history we need strong leaders who are not afraid to call sin by its right name and the spiritual strength do deal with it in a timely manner.

    I am reminded of David and Goliath. The vast host of the Israelites were cowering in the background while this great heathen giant hurled insult after insults at God and His people. It took a “David” who loved and trusted God completely–a very young man–who was willing to step out and defend God’s honor at all costs. Where is our “David” today in this hour of crisis?

    May God help us to find the right people who are willing to do the right thing–regardless of the cost–for God’s honor and glory in this hour of supreme apostasy!




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  34. @Rob Kearbey:

    About 10 years ago I have had members of my church who were attending La Sierra come to me asking what they should do about this problem of the teachers teaching Evolution in their class. They said that there was no recourse for them to take. The teacher would basically ignore them on the subject and any attempt they made to talk with the faculty was also snubbed. And now, 10 years later we are seeing that the problem has not been dealt with. Have the Board of Trustees done enough with their reaffirmation statement? Not even close!

    Souls lost – administrators that were to guard the gates failed to do their jobs. They stand before God without excuse. And now will administrators choose slow lethargic policy and politeness in regard to this mess, instead of swift decisive action?

    In Matt 23 Christ said that the guilt of all those before them – would fall upon that generation if they chose to turn a blind eye and allow the problem to fester.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  35. They re-affirmed their official position. Good. I wonder why they had to officially take that position in November in the first place, assuming they are Seventh-day Adventists and believers in the Scriptures. The kid is past 18 years old and gone on his own. He is an adult now and pappa has no control over his belief system and what he does in his own house. (Even worse in the hospital system).

    Oh, did you say this was the Board? Political strategies and issues, yes they can handle that. Belief system? Maybe ambivalent concerning their own position? Unsure of how to deal with the counter if they confront? Back up…. Did we say the Board can handle political strategies and issues? Aaron, High Priest and Associate Pastor/Leader to Moses, asked for the golden earrings and bands and built a fire to avoid the pressure of conviction — while the fire of God burned on the mountain, and Moses clutched the newly scripted Law of God on Tables of Stone. Who is dead?




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  36. The original Statement of Support is a most reasonable document with which I can personally support in principle. However, the function of a Board of Directors (Trustees) is to set policy, to create action items, and to see they are carried out by the administration. When a board votes on an agenda item, that action item is usually assigned directly to a specific individual with a specific purpose. The only sentence which denotes action in the original Statement of Support is the line “the board embraces its responsibility for ongoing evaluation and assessment.” This sentence implies that the Board will function as the active force of evaluation and assessment. However, it does not indicate any forthcoming action or who will be in charge of that action. The statement is therefore weak because it does not initiate action.

    In the Reaffirmation Statement, the Board instructs continued implementation of its statement. The only implementation of the statement is that it is reaffirming its own responsibility for ongoing evaluation and assessment. But this time, the board passes the buck. It next confers the role of evaluation and assessment to the administration; requesting progress reports identifying actions taken.

    The Boards voted actions are extremely vague and nonspecific. In setting policy and in evaluating whether previous policy has been properly implemented, the board has acted weakly in specifying the actions steps needed to resolve the situation. The trust established in the members of the board is being returned as impotent non-action as they fail to perform their fiduciary responsibility.

    It is understandable that a Board might want to proceed in a vague manner and create language that would allow room for maneuverability. But, the board clearly states that the issue is “serious and complex.” Serious and complex issues need immediate attention, and certainly this issue is commanding interest nationally, and has impact for the church worldwide. The lack of a cogent action item out of the Boards first statement is troubling. It also shows that the board is unwilling to take the issue head on.

    The role of the Board of Directors is to set policy. It is the role of the administration to carry it out. If neither is able to make decisions to create action items in harmony with church positions, then the board needs to realize its flaw and rectify its error immediately.




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  37. I have, what to me, is a very important question to ask–one that I have never seen touched on in all of these conversations. (And one that I just thought of a few minutes ago.)

    What TEXT BOOKS or PRINTED INFORMATION FROM THE TEACHERS INVOLVED are used in these class rooms where evolution is being taught? Are they the things that uphold our belief in a 7 day creation week or are books and additional contradicted information sheets being given to our young people? To me, that is fully as important-–if not more so–-than what the teacher does or does not say.

    Honest Answers, please–no “fudging!!”




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  38. Anyone who thinks they are keeping the fourth commandment and espousing any form of evolution other than the clear biblical record, is deluding theirself. The fourth commandment is not only a reference to a day, but a distinct reference for the reason for the day. When God says He created the world in six literal days and we say anything other than that, we are calling God a liar. The day itself is meaningless without the reason for the day.




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  39. Can anyone tell me who employs the people who believe in evolution? Evolutionists essentially are non-Adventists and the people who employ them are even more responsible for misguiding our young people than the lecturers. There are many highly intellectually-gifted individuals, or so it seems to me, who are true Seventh Day Adventists and I am wondering as to why they do not fervently and actively oppose the appointment of staff who hide their true identity. It is of course possible that the staff members concerned are folk who adhere to wonderful Christian principles in their daily lives. However,granting that, is it too harsh to refer to them as stooges all the same?




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  40. @LeRoy Froom:

    It is understandable that a Board might want to proceed in a vague manner and create language that would allow room for maneuverability. But, the board clearly states that the issue is “serious and complex.” Serious and complex issues need immediate attention, and certainly this issue is commanding interest nationally, and has impact for the church worldwide. The lack of a cogent action item out of the Boards first statement is troubling. It also shows that the board is unwilling to take the issue head on.

    The role of the Board of Directors is to set policy. It is the role of the administration to carry it out. If neither is able to make decisions to create action items in harmony with church positions, then the board needs to realize its flaw and rectify its error immediately.

    Reading between the lines of the board’s vague public statements – it appears that they are “concerned” about their complex problem. Complexity could be of multiple forms.

    1. The legal complexity if in fact history shows that the LSU department heads and presidents knowingly recruited evolutionists – were informed by potential faculty that they were going to teach evolution as “The answer” and even encouraged applicants to do so.

    2. The organizational complexity – if this particular virus is entrenched at the most senior levels of administration at LSU – and across both biology and religion departments (and possibly other science departments as well).

    3. The legal complexity of parents and students who were promised a solid SDA education had raised complaints and were brushed aside.

    4. The career complexity of senior administration and board members complicit in the problem. Admitting to the problem in very specific ways might place key members in an unfavorable light.

    5. The “critical mass” problem – given the popularity of evolution in the LSU area (as might be reflective in the acceptance of pro-evolution books and articles written by people like Fritz Guy).

    Thus the possible factors that might paralyze the board are not too difficult to review.

    But weighed against that – is the eternal weight of souls of students lost over more than a decade of misguided management at LSU. The longer the problem is allowed to fester – the more painful the solution becomes and the more costly the problem is in terms of misleading and derailing souls.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  41. @John Howard: Well said John. I might add that I prefer the requirements for L.S. University employees to work within boundaries set by the University to read somewhat differently. Why not unequivocally add that staff must work within the boundaries set and beliefs held by the Church? The Theory of evolution eminently suits beliefs advocated by various forms of paganism. Would God like the idea of having pagan practices and beliefs in His Church? How did He like it during the days of Gideon, Jehu, Jehoida and Josiah? God never changes. L.S.University is said to be making excellent progress and that mythical statement is accepted by many would-be intellectuals. In the case of the University ‘regress’ rather than ‘progress’ would be more appropriate I would think.




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  42. Who among the board is true to the cause of Christ like the needle to the pole? Are they giving the “evolutionist” professors time to find new jobs or what? I say fire the guys now! If they don’t believe the way the church does and they don’t teach what the church says to teach, then kick them out of our institution! I think they’ve already had enough mercy given to them. Much more than if the situation was the opposite. Secular schools are persecuting any teacher or professor that even hints at creation. They get fired right away! Get these people out of our schools now!




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  43. Maybe a simple analogy would shed some light on the situation.

    Lets say I worked at a car factory and it was my job to assemble the engine
    At some point I decided engines didn’t really need oil anymore to run properly, so I stopped using oil when I put the engines in the cars.
    The manufacturer stated that not only was oil to be used but that it had to be a certain kind of oil to perform properly.
    When the cars started breaking down shortly after(or even while they were at the factory) they left the factory, people were horrified to find there was no oil in the cars.
    They told the supervisor of the plant about the problem, but the supervisor felt that I needed to have engineering freedom and that the other parts of the car worked fine so it wasn’t necessary to do anything.
    Cars kept coming out of my factory for many years with no oil.
    Some experienced owners recognized the problem when the engine started poorly and put oil in fix the problem. Unfortunately even then some damage was already done. Many other owners found out too late and their engines were ruined or badly damaged.
    Just in case it’s not very clear, the cars are our students, the engine is their brains, the engineer is the teacher, and the supervisor is administration. Oil would be our held beliefs as a church (Literal Creation)etc. To make the analogy more accurate; what if the engineer was adding sand (promoting evolution) to the engine instead of oil.
    What if you were a shareholder/upper management in that company and found out what was going on? How would you respond? Would you move slowly or quickly. Would you ask for reports or ….?




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  44. This has gone on way too long. The professors should have been fired as soon as their teaching error was found out. The board is being patient at the expense of the salvation of the students. It is time to stand up and be counted. My bigest question is WHERE IS THE GENERAL CONFERENCE? WHY DON’T THEY STEP IN AND DO SOMETHING!!! I am from a small church in PA and none of our members can understand why this is such a problem …it seems so easy to solve FIRE them NOW.




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  45. As has been said before by certain astute minds ‘teaching evolution only’ reveals a certain weakness.
    Any professor whose IQ is hopefully above the average human level should be able to understand that the lack of an alternative theory constitutes a serious weakness. I have taught a little Science to tertiary level students and never found it difficult to teach what I was required to teach. I simply used to say: this is what evolutionists and that is what creationist teach. I feel that our students should know what evolution is all about but more so what creation is all about. Is it really necessary to explain everything?
    I have looked at evolution carefully and the more I read about it the more flaws I detect in the theory. The more I study the creation story the more sense it begins to make to me.
    So what is the fuss all about? Who are the professors who exclusively teach evolution and exclusively ridicule creation? Are they infiltrators placed in their jobs by the Adversary through other churches? Are they sincere and no more than misguided? Are they directed by pre-conceived notions? Are they afraid of being ridiculed by worldly evolutionists?
    To argue that evolution is pure science is adopting a silly position as most of what evolution teaches is based on assumptions and conjecture. If a professor cannot take me to a laboratory and demonstrate evolution several times his opinion is worthless.
    I would like to see this forum open up a debate with these professors. I believe they would be defeated in argument without any difficulty. I suppose they would not have the courage to enter this kind of debate as deep down they know that they are undermining the SDA Church’ postion and accept salaries without deserving them.




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  46. I am sick unto death w/this debate !!! As I have stated befor, why is the Conf. being so lilly liverd & not stepping up & dismissing not only the profs., but also the Pres. on down the line, until all who are dragging their feet over this, are gotten rid of ??!!!




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  47. I heard that Warren C. Trenchard resigned from his position as Provost at La Sierra University. I heard this from two independent sources both connected with LSU. Would it be completely off base to speculate that he resigned because of this controversy? It just seems odd that it was it was done quietly. Apparently he is returning to teaching in the religion department at LSU.




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  48. I’ve been reading all the comments from those of us “in the pews” but nothing from the “powers that be” to indicate they’ve heard a word we have said–or that they really care how we feel about what is going on at LSU or any other of our institutions. Am I missing something? Are some real reforms taking place and I just haven’t heard about them or is it just a case of “business as usual”? Are there so many layers of protection built in between “them” and “us” that they feel secure in their positions so they just shrug off anything we say?

    No one wants to see any action on our part that would bring disrepute on God’s cause but to sit idly by (an just talk..and talk and talk some more…) and see evil continue to grow and prosper in our midst doesn’t seem to be a good option either. What is the holdup? Where do we go from here? What do we do to get some concrete action take place?

    It seems to me–(and, of course, I could be wrong) that someway, somehow there must be some recourse that can force the administrations to get in there and DO something instead of just writing flowery ‘IMMEDIATE RELEASES” that have absolutely no “teeth” in them.

    I do not claim to be “without sin” myself. None of us are perfect. Neither was David when he struck down the Philistine Giant, and neither were Paul or Peter, James, and John. Neither were any of the other disciples or the great Reformers of the middle ages–but they saw something needed to be done for the cause of God and they courageously stepped in and did what needed to be done–often at the risk of their lives. Does God expect less of us in this very real crisis? Pray more, of course, but is that ALL we can do or need to do?

    Where do we go from here? What can we DO to help bring this disgraceful situation to an end in a way that brings glory to God does the least damage to the cause of God?

    Shall we sit with folded hands and do nothing in this crisis?….God help us to arouse from this stupor that has hung over us for years.” Review and Herald, Dec. 18,1888″. Of course this was not witten for this particular situation but the counsel is just as valid now as it was in 1888.




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  49. Shane Hilde: I heard that Warren C. Trenchard resigned from his position as Provost at La Sierra University. I heard this from two independent sources both connected with LSU. Would it be completely off base to speculate that he resigned because of this controversy? It just seems odd that it was it was done quietly. Apparently he is returning to teaching in the religion department at LSU.

    I have not heard anything about Dr. Trenchard resigning. I sat next to him during a LSU Golden Eagles basketball game on Tuesday and nothing of the sort came up, though it certainly is possible. Regarding the “quiet” nature of this kind of resignation, remember that it is a holiday weekend and the campus is still closed. It is also not an earth-shattering event for a administrator (especially one who is also a professor) to move between administration and instruction; I can point to several examples involving only music professors. Our previous provost, Dr. Ella Simmons resigned to take a position as a vice president at the GC, and that was done with little fanfare. That he would resign over this issue is highly unlikely; this issue is of great importance here, but in day-to-day operations at LSU is not a leading issue (from my perspective).

    Pax,

    David Kendall
    Adjunct Professor of Music
    La Sierra University




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  50. @David Kendall, BMus, MA: I just received an email from someone officially affiliated with LSU and he will be resigning at the end of this year. Oh, David, I just remembered that you know Monte. He’s the other person that told me about him resigning. So I’ve heard it now from three different sources. I’m almost certain it’s related to this controversy.




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  51. Ron said:
    Faith, Your Feb. 13 comment is completely correct. “Thumbing their nose” is actually a rather “benign” way to put it. We’ve got a BIGGER problem than LSU in the Pacific Union Conference! Graham and his “do nothing” cronies need to be held accountable for their lack of leadership over the years. But, whose gonnna “hold ‘em?”

    Ultimately God will, but I don’t think He wants us to wait for the Judgment Day to fix this. I believe He wants this fixed now – and, Ron, I too, wonder who will be the one to step in and fix this mess.

    I am sorry to hear that it is a bigger problem than just LSU in this conference. Throughout my lifetime I have heard incredible stories of error running through the church in various institutions and the California conferences. I didn’t give them much credence at the time because I couldn’t believe anyone who belonged to our church could do such things, and that pastors would let it go on, let alone encourage it. I stand corrected. My heart just bleeds for our church and those who are being misled.

    As church librarian, I have run across a quite a few books in the ABC that I feel should never have been printed. Now that they have been, however,they should be taken out and promptly burned, because they flaunt our church values so blatantly. What is happening in our publishing houses? Are they so greedy for money that they will print books that will lead people astray? At one time, R&H burned for that type of thing and since Pacific Press has also printed a number of things of which I speak, I think they had better be bumping up their fire insurance in a hurry. I am so disappointed in our periodicals such as the Review. It has become a channel for error as well.

    Everything seems to be in such rags and tatters that if we had not been counselled to stay with the church, because it will go through to the end, I would be seriously thinking of finding/starting something else. God help us all.

    Faith




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  52. Faith: As church librarian, I have run across a quite a few books in the ABC that I feel should never have been printed. Now that they have been, however,they should be taken out and promptly burned, because they flaunt our church values so blatantly. What is happening in our publishing houses? Are they so greedy for money that they will print books that will lead people astray? At one time, R&H burned for that type of thing and since Pacific Press has also printed a number of things of which I speak, I think they had better be bumping up their fire insurance in a hurry.

    Hi Faith,

    I am interested to know which books you find objectionable and why. I am fairly well-acquainted with the publications held at the ABC, as my wife worked at the SECC branch for some time and I spent many hours enjoying free reading! Regarding your book-burning comment, I hope you are speaking metaphorically, as book-burnings evoke a strong Inquisition/Communist Russia/Nazi Germany imagery that you obviously do not intend. Words are powerful, which is why you feel strongly about the printed word as distributed in the ABCs.

    Pax,

    David Kendall
    Adjunct Professor of Music
    La Sierra University




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  53. @David Kendall, BMus, MA:

    Our previous provost, Dr. Ella Simmons resigned to take a position as a vice president at the GC, and that was done with little fanfare. That he would resign over this issue is highly unlikely; this issue is of great importance here, but in day-to-day operations at LSU is not a leading issue (from my perspective).

    I am wondering if the “operational visibility” of this issue would increase for LSU in general if suddenly 3 or 4 people from the biology department, as well as the LSU president, and 3 or 4 pro-evolutionist evangelists in the religion department were no longer providing their services at LSU.

    Certainly “operationally” that might affect attendance by some number of students whose objectives were still dependant on access to biology courses at LSU. But hopefully not.

    It is more than a little “instructive” that when that kind of house cleaning took place at Walla Walla a few years ago – some of “the problems” simply relocated themselves to LSU.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  54. The Board needs to specify what they plan to do with the professors who are teaching evolution. Those professors must at least be given the warning that the next time they teach this they will be terminated. Also the president of the university should be warned that he must be responsible to take actions on those persons under his jurisdiction to be sure they are teaching the fundamentals of our Christian beliefs. Our church family spends large amounts of money to see that our young people receive a Christian education. Why should we spend those sums of money to get the same education a public university teaches? That is not why the school was founded and maintained.




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  55. Speaking as a retired Adventist worker who served as administrator of two Adventist Universities for a total of 17 years, I can attest to the fact that in the SDA organizational structure, the University president is normally the secretary of the Board of Trustees, entrusted with drawing up the Board agenda and presenting recommendations to the Board. As the trained educational professional and the Board member most closely associated with the institution, he is the one who normally sets the general tone for the meeting.

    If the University president is adequately carrying out his responsibilities, working closely with his faculty and with the Board Chairman to ensure the continuance of excellence in all phases of his jurisdiction, this system seems to work quite well, having the potential to resolve most problems and address challenges in a meaningful, practical way.

    However, if the president demonstrates by words or action–or inaction!–that he/she is part of a seemingly intractable problem, the Chairman of the Board has the responsibility to take whatever steps may be required to correct the situation. In situations where delay in resolving a problem will result in long-term harm to the students, and the president is reluctant to do what the situation requires–or is downright recalcitrant when directed by the Board to take appropriate action–it then becomes essential for the Board Chairman to exercise his leadership prerogative and call for the resignation of the president.

    As has been aptly stated in previous comments, any teacher in an Adventist school who speaks supportively of macro-evolutionary theory is seriously out of harmony with the Bible and will inevitably undermine the faith of his/her students in the Word of God. It is totally indefensible for the administration or the Board to continue to employ such teachers in our school system at any level. LSU needs a president who understands that and who is willing to address the issue decisively and without further delay. Having followed the situation at LSU with great concern for some time, I have regretfully come to the conclusion that the present leadership is unwilling to take such action. Consequently, I am left with the conviction that nothing less than a change in leadership will lead the University out of the morass in which it finds itself. What LSU clearly needs today is a strong, faith-filled leader who is fully supportive of ALL the teachings of the church and who will take ALL necessary steps to ensure that the University will faithfully fulfill its commitment to uphold the doctrines of the church and to provide its students with faith-based intellectual tools to wisely, but fearlessly, face any and all faith-eroding teachings.

    I believe that it is now time for the LSU Board chairman to call his Board together in special session to take firm action to effect the changes in staffing vital to the survival of LSU as an Adventist institution of higher learning. The longer the Board delays to take action, the greater the danger to our students and, indeed, to the credibility of the university and the Board itself.




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  56. And if the Chairman of the Board does not follow this procedure who is supposed to step in and remove him/her from his/her position? On the surface it appears that neither the University President nor the Chairman of the Board at LSU have followed the procedure so clearly outlined by Mr. Peters on February 16, 2010 above.

    In this case, who is the next in line that should step in and relieve both of these individuals from their positions? If that person is not doing his/her duty, who is next in the chain of command…and so on up the ladder?

    Ultimately, where does the “buck” stop? Ultimately, who must be replaced in order for “the house to be cleansed” so that the purpose for which all of our institutions were established can be carried out?

    “Shall we sit with folded hands and do nothing in this crisis?….God help us to arouse from this stupor that has hung over us for years.” Review and Herald, Dec. 18,1888. As I mentioned earlier, this counsel was not given for this particular problems but it would certainly seem reasonable to apply it to our current situation.




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  57. Lydian asked, “And if the Chairman of the Board does not follow this procedure who is supposed to step in and remove him/her from his/her position?”

    Whereas university presidents answer to their respective boards and pastors answer to the conference president and executive committee, in the final analysis conference and union officers answer to their constituents in the periodically scheduled constituent sessions. The next Pacific Union Conference constituency session is scheduled for August 2011.

    Obviously, it would be preferable for problems to be addressed and resolved at the lowest possible level. However, according to the NAD website, “Executive authority between sessions is exercised by the [relevant local or Union] Conference Executive Committee and the executive officers (normally President, Secretary and Treasurer), all of whom are elected by the session. . . . When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop.”




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  58. If I understand you correctly, if none of the higher-ups in the university, the local conference and the union conference decide to take action this situation could continue to fester for well over another year–if not longer–with nothing being done about it? Surely there must be another way! I believe in proper organization but I cannot believe that it is God’s will that this cancer should have that much more time to fester and grow! Please tell me I have misunderstood what you said! (I believe the General Conference meets this summer in Atlanta, doesn’t it? Can it go directly there or must it go through “channels” first?) If this is the way it is Satan must be laughing so hard he can hardly stand up.

    Where is our Elijah???

    “In the full light of the sun, surrounded by thousands,–men of war, prophets of Baal, and the monarch of Israel,–stands the defenseless man, Elijah, apparently alone, yet not alone. The most powerful host of heaven surrounds him. Angels who excel in strength have come from heaven to shield the faithful and righteous prophet. With stern and commanding voice Elijah cries: “How long halt ye between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow Him, but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.” Not one in that vast assembly dared utter one word for God and show his loyalty to Jehovah.

    “What astonishing deception and fearful blindness had, like a dark cloud, covered Israel! This blindness and apostasy had not closed upon them suddenly, it had come upon them gradually as they had not heeded the word of reproof and warning which the Lord hd sent to them because of their pride and their sins. And now, in this fearful crisis, the presence of the idolatrous priests and the apostate king, they remained neutral. If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime equal to the worst type of hostility against God.”
    Testimonies, Vol.3pg. 280




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  59. @Harold Peters:

    Whereas university presidents answer to their respective boards and pastors answer to the conference president and executive committee, in the final analysis conference and union officers answer to their constituents in the periodically scheduled constituent sessions. The next Pacific Union Conference constituency session is scheduled for August 2011.

    Is it correct that union officers serve 5 year terms?

    Are the Union sessions announced the way the conference sessions are?

    How are constituents selected for Union session?

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  60. On a recent posting on another web site, “Professor Not Kent” raised an interesting point that I assume the organizers of the EducateTruth site will want to pursue without delay. Why they have not done this already should be very troubling to anyone who supports the agenda of the Educate Truth site.

    Sean Pitman and Shane Hilde over and over again have argued that any church employee who advocates and supports positions that the official Adventist church has rejected should immediately resign his or her position. Anyone employed by the Adventist church should not be advocating beliefs that the church has rejected while being paid by the Adventist church.

    The Adventist Church at two General Conference sessions has officially declared that the Adventist Church should not and will not ordain women as pastors. The position of the official church on the ordination of women is no longer subject to interpretation. The Adventist Church in its General Conference has spoken—twice! No Adventist women pastors! Period! End of discussion!

    If they are to be consistent and hold to their principles, Sean and Shane must argue and declare that all female Adventist pastors currently working for the Adventist church should immediately resign. Also, all those who are pro-women ordinationists who publicaly advocate the ordination of women who are currently working for the Adventist Church should immediately resign.

    In the North America Division, there literally scores of women pastors serving in many conferences and in Adventist churches large and small. Many have been officially ordained by local conferences. They are all being paid with tithe money. In light of this, we might ask why Sean Pitman and Shane Hilde have not demanded that all of these women pastors and all current church employees who support them should immediately resign?.




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  61. @Ervin Taylor: I have no doubt there are many things that church employees do that are contrary to what the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes. You asked:

    Ervin Taylor: In light of this, we might ask why Sean Pitman and Shane Hilde have not demanded that all of these women pastors and all current church employees who support them should immediately resign?

    I speak for myself and not Sean. I don’t have the time to address every problem that arises in our church. I’m a graduate from LSU, and I still live in the “area” so this issue is very close to me. Also, I see much greater danger in promoting evolution than having female pastors. I’m human. I can’t do it all and neither has God asked me to.

    Contrary to your argument, I don’t have to declare the removal of every female pastor that is currently employed. I’m not even advocating the removal of the professors at LSU. I’d much prefer other steps be taken before firing takes place.

    Your claim that I’m being inconsistent by not declaring all female Adventist pastors should resign is so ridiculous. That’s not the issue I’m dealing with Erv. I’m dealing with evolution being promoted at LSU. I’ve never said I don’t agree with the church’s position on female pastors, so I’m not being inconsistent.

    I’m truly amused that you’re making such an issue out of this. As if you’d approach those advocating for battered women why they don’t advocate for both sexes or any number of wrongs done against women. Why stop at physical or emotional abuse? Why not address all areas such as the objectification of women in media?

    By your line of reasoning they’d be inconsistent by not addressing any one of those. They’re fighting their cause just as I’m fighting mine and you’re fighting yours.

    This has got RED HERRING written all over it and is absolutely and completely irrelevant to the purpose and goal of this website.




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  62. Dear Sister Lydian, I believe one sure way of getting the church leadership to listen to our concerns is to stop supporting them financially and redirecting our tithes elsewhere, other parts of the LORD’s vineyard. If the money stops flowing to the Conferences, the leadership will wake up. Do think that if tomorrow we hear of a case of embezzlement of funds at LSU, the Board will drag its feet in addressing the issue? Certainly not, the individuals involved will be promptly sidelined and given marching orders. What is happening at LSU is just tragic and sad, indeed where are the ELIJAHS, who would stand up for the true GOD.




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  63. Ervin Taylor: In the North America Division, there literally scores of women pastors serving in many conferences and in Adventist churches large and small. Many have been officially ordained by local conferences. They are all being paid with tithe money. In light of this, we might ask why Sean Pitman and Shane Hilde have not demanded that all of these women pastors and all current church employees who support them should immediately resign?.

    The issue is not whether women can serve in a pastoral capacity. The church approves of that. I’m sure you know that Erv. The issue is that the church has ruled they can be ordained as elders but not pastors. Those churches or conferences who have ordained women as pastors have not done so with the approval of the world church. In that case the discipline should fall on the persons who approved the unrecognized ordaining – not the one who received it. Certainly an unrecognized ordaining would not necessarily disqualify a woman from continuing to function in a pastoral capacity either.
    A red herring indeed.




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  64. God has clearly spoken:

    “If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime equal to the worst type of hostility against God.” Testimonies, Vol.3pg. 280

    If this is not an emergency I wish someone would explain to me what one is.

    I rest my case.




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  65. BobRyan: Is it correct that union officers serve 5 year terms?

    Are the Union sessions announced the way the conference sessions are?

    How are constituents selected for Union session?

    Yes, union sessions are generally held every five years, so union officers would normally serve five-year terms.

    Legal announcements regarding union sessions are placed in the official church papers. In North America this would presumably include both the Adventist Review and the union paper.

    Union constitutions should spell out the method by which constituents are selected. I have searched online for the Pacific Union Conference constitution but have not found it, so I am unable to detail the procedure by which their session delegates are selected. Speaking generally, union sessions always include some by virtue of their office (e.g., local conference officers and division representatives), but the majority of the delegates should be appointed by the membership, usually selected by local churches. Perhaps someone else can respond with more precise information for the Pacific Union Conference.

    Michael: I believe one sure way of getting the church leadership to listen to our concerns is to stop supporting them financially and redirecting our tithes elsewhere, other parts of the LORD’s vineyard. If the money stops flowing to the Conferences, the leadership will wake up.

    Since faithfully returning our tithe to “the storehouse” is a sacred God-given responsibility, I cannot conscientiously advocate the redirecting of tithe. Instead, I would suggest that concerned individuals request to meet with their local church boards to advocate that the board take official action (1) requesting that their conference and union withhold all financial support from LSU and (2) recommending that their members redirect their children to other publicly compliant Adventist colleges/universities (see http://www.educatetruth.com/category/other-schools/), such actions to remain in effect until such time as LSU can demonstrate full compliance with church directives and appeals relative to the teaching of macro-evolution in Adventist schools (see http://www.educatetruth.com/letters/the-advent-appeal/).

    I believe that if a sufficient number of churches in the Pacific Union were to take such action, the LSU Board would get the message and would move from talk to action.




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  66. @David Kendall, BMus, MA:

    “I am interested to know which books you find objectionable and why.
    …Regarding your book-burning comment, I hope you are speaking metaphorically, as book-burnings evoke a strong Inquisition/Communist Russia/Nazi Germany imagery that you obviously do not intend.”

    David,

    I would be happy to give you an example of these books and why I think they should be burned–and I do think they should be burned–but I think it would be disrepectful to use this site which exists to discuss the specific problem of Creation vs. Evolution being taught at LSU. I don’t want to take the focus off the subject as is being attmepted by Erv Taylor above.

    I have many concerns about the direction the church seems to be taking in a number of areas. The day I posted that comment I was particularly discouraged with the error in the church. I apologize to Shane and Sean for opening that particular can of worms here and I promise not to pursue it further on their site by giving you the long answer to your enquiry.

    That being said, I am not sure how to contact you privately–I don’t feel comfortable posting my email address here as I am quite sure my e-mail would be jammed within a very short time. I don’t have the time to deal with all that mail as I am currently taking college courses online and am particularly busy at the present moment. (Thus the delay in answering your post.)

    I feel strongly about the truth being misrepresented in print. As far as I am concerned, that does more damage than if someone spoke it…the spoken word is more easily forgotten than the printed word which can be circulated for years to come. I am saddened that our publications (books and periodicals) are promoting error within our church.

    As to your comment on book-burning, I seem to recall a situation in the Bible (Acts 19:19) where book-burning was employed to rid the new Christian believers of Satanic teachings. (Heavy sigh) It is funny how book-burning has come to be connected with “Inquisition/Communist Russia/Nazi Germany imagery”. Political correctness is often used by Satan to prevent protest while he continues to infiltrate the church with his creeping compromise. I just happen to believe that our publishing houses shouldn’t be used to promote Satan’s teachings. As the editors have not done their job and rejected these manuscripts, the logical “fix” would be to get rid of the published heresy. Sorry if that offends some people, but I believe it is right and proper. And I know that flies in the face of “freedom of speech” which is also used by both sides of the cosmic conflict. Consider this: what if Pacific Press or R&H did publish a book of spells–would you think that grounds for book-burning? The books I am referring to may not be as blatant as a book of spells–but they hold spiritualism in a more subtle form.

    Enough said here. I wish I could contact you some other way.

    Faith




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  67. @Ervin Taylor:

    Ervin Taylor says:
    February 17, 2010 On a recent posting on another web site, “Professor Not Kent” raised an interesting point that I assume the organizers of the EducateTruth site will want to pursue without delay. Why they have not done this already should be very troubling to anyone who supports the agenda of the Educate Truth site.

    Sean Pitman and Shane Hilde over and over again have argued that any church employee who advocates and supports positions that the official Adventist church has rejected should immediately resign his or her position. Anyone employed by the Adventist church should not be advocating beliefs that the church has rejected while being paid by the Adventist church.

    The Adventist Church at two General Conference sessions has officially declared that the Adventist Church should not and will not ordain women as pastors.

    Ohhh the “transparent nature” of diverting misdirecting rabbit trails!

    I guess dealing with the substance of the subject at hand is a little too challenging eh?

    A few hints for our evolutionist would-be topic-derailers.

    1. There is NO “Fundamental Belief” regarding Women Pastors.
    2. There is NO part of the Ten Commandments addressing that topic.
    3. There is NO connection between evolution and having or not having women pastors.
    4. There is NO evidence that 3SG 90-91 speaks of the “women pastors” issue as “the WORST kind of infidelity” beyond the “diguised infidelity” term that she associates with Theistic Evolutionism.

    And finally – “There is NO logic” in the wild claim that educate truth members or sponsors “go to some other web site’ and then “talk about whatever rabbit trails” that “prof-not-kent” can think up.

    Surely we all knew that — right?

    The position of the official church on the ordination of women is no longer subject to interpretation. The Adventist Church in its General Conference has spoken—twice! No Adventist women pastors! Period! End of discussion!

    Hmm – maybe Erv is wanting to start his own web site on this pet subject of his.

    Go for it Erv! Let your enthusiasm against women pastor be freely expressed on your web site. I for one – would love to see just how sincere you are on that point.

    I imagine we will be waiting awhile for Erv’s followthrough on that one.

    The nature of rabbit trails being what they are.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  68. @Harold Peters:

    Union constitutions should spell out the method by which constituents are selected. I have searched online for the Pacific Union Conference constitution but have not found it, so I am unable to detail the procedure by which their session delegates are selected. Speaking generally, union sessions always include some by virtue of their office (e.g., local conference officers and division representatives), but the majority of the delegates should be appointed by the membership, usually selected by local churches. Perhaps someone else can respond with more precise information for the Pacific Union Conference.

    Over the years I do recall a number of times where local churches have been asked to provide delegates to the local conference session to elect officers.

    But for some odd reason — I do not recall that happening for Unions. Not sure why that is – maybe I just missed it.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  69. Bro. Peters, you said

    Since faithfully returning our tithe to “the storehouse” is a sacred God-given responsibility, I cannot conscientiously advocate the redirecting of tithe.

    It appears as though you’re of the belief that the organized structure constitutes the only duly authorized channel for tithe. This is also what the GC website says on the matter.

    That’s a pity, because Ellen White herself sent tithe money to worthy independent ministries, and commended others who did the same. Why has her example and counsel become unsafe to follow?




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  70. The strategy to digress is a good way to kill the topic which I thought had to do with ‘science’ professors teaching evolution at LSU. Well done Erv!
    What a pity for those and their consorts who are rambling on about tithe paying and female pastors that they are almost totally irrelevant.
    In my view it is always best to concentrate on one issue at the time. Once one major problem has been solved others are likely to be resolved also. So why not simply say goodbye to people who are undermining our Church’s teachings? I am sure that other protestant churches will welcome them with open arms as people who in their estimation have finally seen the “truth”! Could money be the problem? Let’s not forget that God owns everything and that the University being sued for unfair dismissal is a non-issue.




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  71. Yes, John, I am a traditional Adventist who sees a distinction between tithes and offerings. I believe that the tithe should be turned into the church treasury to be used for the support of the ministers and Bible teachers employed by the church. I also believe in giving a “second tithe” which I feel free to designate systematically for the support of various church, conference, educational, and world mission needs as God impresses me. I have found that God has fulfilled His promise in Malachi 3:8-11 in my life and poured out such abundant blessings that often I have been able to go well beyond the second tithe in supporting the various church and self-supporting ministries whose needs God has impressed upon my heart.

    Here are some of the quotations, John, that have brought conviction to my heart regarding the correct use of the tithe. While I don’t presume to tell you where to return your tithe, as I said in a previous comment, I cannot in clear conscience advocate withholding tithe from the church treasury. To do so would, in my estimation, endanger the work of the church and could lead to major retrenchment of dedicated ministers of the gospel, most of whom–if not all–believe wholeheartedly in the Genesis account of origins.

    “Instruction has been given me that there is a withholding of the tithe that should be faithfully brought into the Lord’s treasury, for the support of the ministers and missionaries who are opening the Scriptures to the people, and working from house to house. These workers are to do their best, as the Lord’s light-bearers. As they walk humbly with God, angels of heaven will co-operate with them, making impressions on minds. In the past angels of God have stood beside his messengers, as they have raised the standard bearing the inscription, ‘The Commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus.’ The ministers and evangelists who are laboring in the Lord’s vineyard, must be supported. We may have a part in the work by bringing to the storehouse means for the sustenance of the Lord’s chosen ones.” {RH, April 20, 1905 par. 15}.

    “Many presidents of State conferences do not attend to that which is their work.–to see that the elders and deacons of the churches do their work in the churches, by seeing that a faithful tithe is brought into the treasury. Malachi has specified that the condition of prosperity depends upon bringing to God’s treasury that which is his own. This principle needs to be often brought before the men who are lax in their duty to God, and who are neglectful and careless in bringing in their tithes, gifts, and offerings to God. ‘Will a man rob God?’ ‘Wherein have we robbed thee?” is the question asked by the unfaithful stewards. The answer comes plain and positive. “In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.’ Please read this whole chapter, and see if words could be spoken that would be more plain and positive than these. They are so positive that no one who desires to understand his whole -21- duty to God, needs to make any mistake in the matter. If men offer any excuse as to why they do not perform this duty, it is because they are selfish, and have not the love and fear of God in their hearts.” {SpTA07 20.1}

    “The Lord has revealed to me that when the members of the church in _____ shall learn to deny themselves, when they shall consecrate themselves to God, when they shall practice economy as truehearted sons and daughters of God; when they shall expend much less for outward display, and shall wear plain, simple clothing without unnecessary adornments; when their faith and works shall correspond, then they will be the Lord’s true missionaries and will have clear discernment and spiritual understanding. They will have a sense of the sacredness of God’s work. They will see the necessity of the tithe money being faithfully paid into the treasury, and reserved for the sacred work to which God designs that it shall be devoted,–to carry the last message of mercy to a fallen world. God’s people are to lift the standard of truth in every place where the message of mercy has not been proclaimed. {1MR 185.1}
    “Every soul who is honored in being a steward of God is to carefully guard the tithe money. This is sacred means. The Lord will not sanction your borrowing this money for any other work. It will create evils you cannot now discern. It is not to be meddled with by the _____ church; for there are missions to be sustained in other fields, where there are no churches and no tithes. When the men who, as God’s messengers, have their work to do, will do it in a straightforward manner, the church of _____ will take care of the duties belonging to it individually. The members will furnish the means to sustain these extra expenses. But by using the tithe for these expenses, or filling the gaps made in business lines, you lift from them a burden which they should as a church carry.” {1MR 185.2}

    I hope, Bob, that you do not feel that this response to John is “rambling on” about irrelevancies. I do believe strongly in the need to address the issue of advocacy of evolution in Adventist classrooms, but in our attempts to support one of the 28 fundamental beliefs of our church, we must take care not to use methods out of harmony with other fundamental beliefs. Thus, for me, this response is highly relevant. I am a firm believer in church organization; the church has carefully designated procedures for addressing issues, and I believe that it is incumbent upon us to prayerfully utilize those procedures, including the use of petitions and appeals to higher levels of church organization, if necessary, as we seek appropriate redress.




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  72. @Faith:
    Faith,

    My faculty email is no secret, as it is on all of my syllabi, so don’t mind giving it out here. It is dkendall@lasierra.edu. Regarding the book-burning comment, the new believers in the Acts account you mentioned brought their own books to be burned. There were not taken from a third party, or unwillingly, which could be the case otherwise. But we can discuss this further privately.

    Pax,

    David Kendall
    Adjunct Professor of Music
    La Sierra University




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  73. David Kendall, BMus, MA: @Faith:
    Faith,My faculty email is no secret, as it is on all of my syllabi, so don’t mind giving it out here.It is dkendall@lasierra.edu.Regarding the book-burning comment, the new believers in the Acts account you mentioned brought their own books to be burned.There were not taken from a third party, or unwillingly, which could be the case otherwise.But we can discuss this further privately.Pax,David Kendall
    Adjunct Professor of Music
    La Sierra University  

    I agree with you David. The reference in Acts does not have application to the idea of a ‘publishing purge’. I myself destroyed a whole heap of new-age/occult paraphernalia and writings when I first accepted Christ. I didn’t build a fire for fear of violating the local fire codes. This was a very personal ceremony for me, having its source in my own heart response to the Biblical gospel.
    I do not think that the Adventist church wants to resurrect the Catholic institution of the “Index Librorum Prohibitorum” (Index of censored/prohibited works). I don’t think a lock-step publishing work like the Jehovah Witnesses press in Brooklyn is helpful for a church that promotes freedom of thought and faith either.
    On the other hand, the Bible and history indicates that there was a host of pseudopigrapha (heretical spurious writings) in the first century. Many of these circulated in apostolic times and purported to be written by apostles or believers in the name of Christianity. I do suspect that the apostolic church destroyed a lot of this material when it came into their possession (Let’s not forget that Paul pronounced a curse on anyone who would preach a gospel other than the one taught by the apostles). Much of it did survive of course in copied form, and continues to contribute to deception and confusion about the true faith.




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  74. @Harold Peters:
    Sorry! I suppose the term “rambling on” was not very kind and I should have said no more than that in my opinion deviation from the purpose of this website takes the pressure off those professors who are deliberately teaching students a tunnel-vision-view as regards the way the world came into existence.
    In relation to tithing my family operates the same as yours and we can testify to always being blessed abundantly, without fail.




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  75. These professors who believe in Theistic Evolution are not Seventh-day Adventists. By nature, a Seventh-day Adventist is a creationist. They cannot be negotiated with. You would not expect to hire Darwin himself to teach creation. It would be against his nature to do so. Nor should we hire Darwin’s disciples to teach creation to our children. It’s like hiring the wolf to guard the sheep. These professors need to be fired! Anything short of that is “not dealing with the issue.”




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  76. I am “a very old woman” of over 85 years–will be 86 this July. While I am a college graduate (that was a long time ago!) I don’t have a string of other degrees after my name. I suppose a lot of folks would consider me ignorant for I am not an “expert” in any field of higher learning. But I am delighted to state that I have a Heavenly Father who knows more than all the combined wisdom of all the combined “experts” in any and every field of learning since time began.

    As far as I am concerned I think these discussions are getting sort of “carried away” and introducing other issues that are not really relevant to this situation.

    Not one soul who has ever lived was “there” when our world began–only God was. He is the only One who really knows what and how things happened. He is the only One who truly knows whether there were rocks scattered around some place or not. He says, “The earth was without form and void” I take Him at His word and go on from there.

    The real issue here, as I see it, is whether or not we belive what He has plainly stated. He said, “The evening and the morning were the first, second, third. forth, fifth, sixth, an seventh day”–and that is the ONLY REASON we have the weekly cycle! The sun gives us the year, the moon gives us the months–and God gave us the week–which has never been changed. There is nothing in nature that calls for a weekly cycle! (Yes, the sun also defines the length of the day as well as the length of the year–but it does NOT define the weekly cycle.)

    God has been around forever–and “He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust. As for man his days are like grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourishes. For the wind passes over it, and it is gone; and its place remembers it no more.” Ps. 103:14-16 NKJV. (Some wise person once said, “If you truly want to know how important you are in the overall scheme of things just take a bucket and fill it with water and put your arm in it. Then pull it back out–the hole that is left shows how important you really have been.” True, we’ve had some truly great individuals who have left a real legacy–some good, some bad–for which we remember them, but the vast majority of us fade away and eventually leave no record that we have ever lived.) But GOD never “passes away!” He, and He alone has always “been” and will always “be”!

    To me, the real issue here goes far beyond our “fundamental beliefs.” We claim to be a “Bible based” church where what GOD says is supreme and all issues should stand or fall on what SCRIPTURE says. “Academic Freedom” isn’t an option where it strays from what the Bible says on a subject and anyone who teaches anything contrary to the plain Word of God (not necessarly our “fundamental beliefs”) has no place anywhere in our ranks as far as leaders and teachers are concerned. (Whose “voice” are we listening to–God’s or the devils?) There is simply too much at stake to tolerate any swerving from this basic rule.

    All of these conversations back and forth that wander into all sorts of issues are simply “mudding the water” and filling the devil’s heart with glee.

    To paraphrase Ellen White:

    “What astonishing deception and fearful blindness (has), like a dark cloud, (covered modern) Israel! This blindness and apostasy (has) not closed upon (us) suddenly, it (has) come upon (us) gradually as (we have) not heeded the word of reproof and warning which the Lord (has) sent to (us) because of (our) pride and (our) sins. And now, in this fearful crisis, in the presence of idolatrous (teachers and leaders), (we) remain neutral. If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime equal to the worst type of hostility against God.” Testimonies, Vol.3, pg. 280

    “And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve; whether the gods (of science-so called or the Creator of the universe)… but as for me …(I) will serve the LORD.” (My family is long-since grown and gone so they must choose for themelves.) Joshua 24:15 (NKJV Paraphrased)

    “Shall we (continue to) sit with folded hands and do nothing in this crisis?….God help us to arouse from this stupor that has hung over us for years.” Review and Herald, Dec. 18,1888″. (Again–paraphrased) Of course this was not witten for this particular situation but the counsel is just as valid now as it was in 1888.




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  77. Harold Peters: I would suggest that concerned individuals request to meet with their local church boards to advocate that the board take official action (1) requesting that their conference and union withhold all financial support from LSU and (2) recommending that their members redirect their children to other publicly compliant Adventist colleges/universities (see http://www.educatetruth.com/category/other-schools/), such actions to remain in effect until such time as LSU can demonstrate full compliance with church directives and appeals relative to the teaching of macro-evolution in Adventist schools (see http://www.educatetruth.com/letters/the-advent-appeal/).

    Unless I inadvertently missed it, I believe no one has commented on this suggestion that I offered a couple of days ago. I believe this to be a practical approach to encourage conference and union officials to take firm action dealing with the heresy being taught in the LSU biology department. If concerned members can’t convince their own local churches to officially register their disapproval of LSU’s not-so-hidden agenda, what hope is there that they can influence the outcome at LSU?




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  78. @Harold Peters: I think those are both viable actions and would send a strong message to LSU about the seriousness with which the church body views this issue.

    Unfortunately it appears standing on principle is no longer valued over dollars, so when an appeal to LSU’s responsibility to uphold our beliefs fails it might be time to let the dollar speak.




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  79. @Harold Peters:

    Unless I inadvertently missed it, I believe no one has commented on this suggestion that I offered a couple of days ago. I believe this to be a practical approach to encourage conference and union officials to take firm action dealing with the heresy being taught in the LSU biology department. If concerned members can’t convince their own local churches to officially register their disapproval of LSU’s not-so-hidden agenda, what hope is there that they can influence the outcome at LSU?

    A number of individuals have posted that they would encourage everyone to be informed about LSU and to not send supporting funds or students to LSU until such time as the school is no longer at war against the denomination’s 28 Fundamental Beliefs – as it relates to evolution vs Bible Creation.

    But you are the first I have seen that has suggested the step of church boards taking a vote and notifying their local conference of the intent to formally discourage local church members from supporting LSU.

    I think the suggestion has merit even if it seems drastic to some.

    This is particularly true for local churches in the Pacific Union since that is where we would find constituents electing church administrators at the conference and Union level. (And it is also an area that contributes heavily to LSU enrollment)

    However – given that this is nearly a “20 year problem” that has been festering – my guess is that pro-evolutionist officers are in place not only at LSU but also on almost every board in the related conferences and at the Union — as well as at the GC itself. My guess is that the “board votes” would struggle with the fact that a number of our own pastors themselves were taught by SDA leaders associated with our own seminary to cave in to the argument for evolutionism, and that this has only added to the number of lay members either confused or totally in-the-tank for evolutionism. And as we have seen even on this web site – there is even a non-Evolutionist group that seems to have an interest in blocking any attempt by the church to address the problem of evolutionism – since they view this issue as a “sign of pluralism” that some “progressives” would like to see in the church (even if they themselves do not agree with evolution).

    Prayers are needed to see this turn around.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  80. @Lydian Belknap:

    Lydian Belknap says:
    February 19, 2010 I am “a very old woman” of over 85 years–will be 86 this July. While I am a college graduate (that was a long time ago!) I don’t have a string of other degrees after my name. …

    As far as I am concerned I think these discussions are getting sort of “carried away” and introducing other issues that are not really relevant to this situation.

    That is certainly true. We see threads getting off track from time to time.

    The real issue here, as I see it, is whether or not we belive what He has plainly stated. He said, “The evening and the morning were the first, second, third. forth, fifth, sixth, an seventh day”–and that is the ONLY REASON we have the weekly cycle!

    yes that is very true. We cannot logically claim to uphold the 7th-day Sabbath while promoting error regarding Creation in 7 actual days.

    To me, the real issue here goes far beyond our “fundamental beliefs.” We claim to be a “Bible based” church where what GOD says is supreme and all issues should stand or fall on what SCRIPTURE says. “Academic Freedom” isn’t an option where it strays from what the Bible says on a subject and anyone who teaches anything contrary to the plain Word of God (not necessarly our “fundamental beliefs”) has no place anywhere in our ranks as far as leaders and teachers are concerned. (Whose “voice” are we listening to–God’s or the devils?) There is simply too much at stake to tolerate any swerving from this basic rule.

    Yes that is a very good point. However almost every Christian denomination and yes – almost every offshoot movement within our own denomination, will argue that their position is not a question of a list of doctrinal statements – but it is all based on the Bible.

    So while it is true that the real measure of the error of evolutionism is found in the degree to which it undermines trust in the Word of God – by flatly contradicting what God says in it – still we need some formal set of statements (Fundamental Beliefs) making it clear just where we stand in our understanding of God’s Word at this point in time. And so while one evolutionist may argue “day does not really mean day in Genesis 1” – we try to show the correct view of that point in our 28FB.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  81. You can keep the Sabbath, and you can even come up with good reasons for keeping a Sabbath.

    But there is absolutely no rationale for keeping the seventh-day Sabbath if it’s stated rationale is not true. Spiritual truths necessitate physical realities.

    I challenge anyone who does not believe in the historicity of the Bible, yet believes God is love to show what evidence they have to believe God is love. More often than not they will come up short and claim a blind faith.




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  82. @BobRyan: @BobRyan: BobRyan says:
    February 23, 2010

    “….still we need some formal set of statements (Fundamental Beliefs) making it clear just where we stand in our understanding of God’s Word at this point in time.”

    Bob,

    I was not for one moment suggesting that we did not need a statement of our “Fundamental Beliefs” because we do–otherwise we would end up in utter confusion. My point–which must have been badly made–was that this was not only against what we believe as a people but but against the plain Words of God–which we as a people solidly support. (I may have made bad matters worse by what I just said but you must accept the fact that I AM a “very old lady” and I mean well!)

    I’d like to add here that I am really grateful to Shane Hilde, Sean Pitman and David Asscherick for having the courage to make this situation public and giving “very old ladies” like me a chance to (hopeully) lend some support to what they are trying to do. And I hope I haven’t “muddied the waters” too much!

    Lydian




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  83. Shane, I am puzzled by your challenge –

    “I challenge anyone who does not believe in the historicity of the Bible, yet believes God is love to show what evidence they have to believe God is love. More often than not they will come up short and claim a blind faith.”

    I believe in the historicity of the Bible but I would have difficulty proving that God is love. I dont see anything wrong with blind faith. So why dont you help us out offer proof that God is love. What is the physical reality for this?




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  84. @Geanna Dane: My was that spiritual truths necessitate physical realities. These truths must be based directly or indirectly from physical evidence. The only reason you believe God is love is because of the historicity of the Bible. In other words, you believe the Bible to be an accurate record of God’s interactions with humans, which enables you to make judgments about God’s character.

    I don’t believe you can prove anything, but I do believe God gives ample evidence with which to base our faith on. Read what Hebrews 11:1 says: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

    I submit that there is not one example in the entire Bible of blind faith. If our faith in God was based on blind faith, than what reason would we have for thinking He is a personal and loving God? Why would Christianity be any more true than Mormonism?

    Does that help explain it more?

    It’s just like what I said about the Sabbath. You can keep the Sabbath, and you can even come up with good reasons for keeping a Sabbath. But there is absolutely no rationale for keeping the seventh-day Sabbath if it’s stated rationale is not true. It’s blind faith to believe that you must keep the seventh-day Sabbath, if you don’t believe the reason for it’s existence–a literal six day creation.




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  85. Geanna Dane:I dont see anything wrong with blind faith.

    The Bible does not support a “blind faith.” The following quotes view blind faith negatively.

    “In the parables which Christ had spoken, it was His purpose both to warn the rulers and to instruct the people who were willing to be taught. But there was need to speak yet more plainly. Through their reverence for tradition and their BLIND FAITH in a corrupt priesthood, the people were enslaved. These chains Christ must break. The character of the priests, rulers, and Pharisees must be more fully exposed.” Desire of Ages 612-613.

    “Rome had misrepresented the character of God, and perverted his requirements, and now men rejected both the Bible and its Author. She had required a BLIND FAITH in her dogmas, under the pretended sanction of the Scriptures.” Great Controversy, page 282.




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  86. Ironically, as Stephen Vicaro points out Ellen White described examples of “blind faith” (clearly misplaced) in the Bible, which of course contradicts the claim that there is no “blind faith” in the Bible. So without doubt she established that blind faith IS a reality in the Bible. So the question then is weather blind faith in God exists and I dont see why it would not.

    The “blind faith” that Ellen White described was based solely on the word of MISINFORMED men. If Paul and others truly converted many Gentiles, how was there faith any diffrent other than being based on word of INFORMED men? Did the converts have anything to read (“evidence”) before their conversion? I dont think so. They simply listened and believed and their “blind faith” just happened to be in the right place. Lucky them!

    By the way what did Jesus mean by becoming “born again” other than to discard all of ones preconceived notions and experiences (ie. evidence?)?

    Sorry but I dont get the point of any of this or how it has any bearing what soever on La Sierra. We are saved by grace through faith and why should we belief that grace is extended only to “evidentiary” faith.




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  87. Hebrews 11

    Verse 1: Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (Clearly faith is independent of what we see! You can’t argue against this, so faith according to the Bible IS blind. Unless of course one is arguing that “blind” means something other than being unable to see something.)

    Verse 4: By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. (Almost surely Abel lacked a Bible as evidence yet he still believed. I assume he believed that God was love without scriptural evdence.)

    Again I don’t understand the basic premise or why “blind faith” is such a bad thing or unscripturel. Forgive my posts.




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  88. @Lydian Belknap:

    Bob,

    I was not for one moment suggesting that we did not need a statement of our “Fundamental Beliefs” because we do–otherwise we would end up in utter confusion. My point–which must have been badly made–was that this was not only against what we believe as a people but but against the plain Words of God–which we as a people solidly support. (I may have made bad matters worse by what I just said but you must accept the fact that I AM a “very old lady” and I mean well!)

    Lydian – many thanks for clarifying that point.

    The reason for my response is that historically (beginning in the 19th century) there has been a lot of push back on the idea that Adventists might have anything “but the Bible” to define our doctrines. But as Ellen White also noted – without a specific set of beliefs – spelled out so no one can be in doubt as to our positions – it opens a very wide door to false teachers traveling about claiming to be proclaiming Adventist doctrine when really it is littel more than their own imagination.

    Even on this web site we have had a few posts objecting to the 27 (now 28) fundamental beliefs being used as a litmus test to see If something is really an Adventist doctrine or not.

    In any case – I thought you made very good points in your post.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  89. Geanna Dane: If Paul’s conversion did not involve “blind” faith then I’ll eat my shorts.

    Geanna,

    Though Paul may have been struck with blindness, his “faith” was not blind. He knew the history of the cross and the impact that Jesus was having on the world. He also experienced the manifestation of the Lord Himself. He was taught the Gospel by Jesus Himself (Galatians 1:12). Then God sent His faithful disciple Ananias to heal Paul as a representative of Christ. This is the same Gospel that Paul would later declare is the only Gospel in Galatians 1:9.

    Christian faith is not a blind faith. It is a faith based on what God has said in His Word, the Bible. It is the testimony of Jesus Christ. Any gospel that that is outside of what Jesus and His disciples taught is a false gospel.

    “When, in the midst of his blind error and prejudice, Saul was given a revelation of the Christ whom he was persecuting, he was placed in direct communication with the church, which is the light of the world. In this case Ananias represents Christ, and also represents Christ’s ministers upon the earth, who are appointed to act in His stead. In Christ’s stead Ananias touches the eyes of Saul, that they may receive sight. In Christ’s stead he places his hands upon him, and, as he prays in Christ’s name, Saul receives the Holy Ghost. All is done in the name and by the authority of Christ. Christ is the fountain; the church is the channel of communication.” Acts of the Apostles, page 123

    Let me know how eating your shorts works out for you.

    God bless.




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  90. Geanna Dane: Again I don’t understand the basic premise or why “blind faith” is such a bad thing or unscripturel.

    Geanna,

    “Blind faith” is one without premise. Faith is not believing something when there is no basis. Faith is believing what God has said.

    Jesus said in Matthew 15:14 that the leaders of Israel were blind. This was because their ideas were not based upon God’s Word. Equally so, evolution is not based on God’s Word. Therefore proponents of it would also be “blind leaders of the blind.” Jesus did not declare himself to be blind, nor His followers. On the contrary He was the Light of the world (John 1:4, John 1:9), and so are His followers (Matthew 5:14). Luke 4:18 declares that when Jesus preached the gospel it brought sight to the blind.

    Again, blind faith is a negative concept in Scripture and in the Spirit of Prophecy. See also Matthew 6:22, Matthew 6:23

    When we are lead by God’s Word we are not blind. “Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto by path.” (Psalm 119:105)




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  91. Geanna Dane: Ironically, as Stephen Vicaro points out Ellen White described examples of “blind faith” (clearly misplaced) in the Bible, which of course contradicts the claim that there is no “blind faith” in the Bible. So without doubt she established that blind faith IS a reality in the Bible. So the question then is weather blind faith in God exists and I dont see why it would not.

    Hi again Geanna.

    Are we easily distracted? Of course, I meant that there is no endorsement of blind faith in the Bible. Thank you so much for helping me to make my point more clear.

    Geanna Dane: If Paul and others truly converted many Gentiles, how was there faith any diffrent other than being based on word of INFORMED men?

    Ah, now we have some clarity as to your view of Scripture. It appears that you are saying that Paul’s divine ispiration from the Holy Spirit is on equal ground with people like the science professors at LSU. But if I am not mistaken, those professors do not believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible, nor do they claim to be prophets. Peter declared Paul’s writings to be Scripture in 2 Peter 3:15, and 2 Peter 3:16. This all confirms the point that God’s Word is the guiding factor. Again, our faith is not blind if God is guiding us through His established Word. Do you believe that the whole Bible is divinely inspired and trustworthy?

    Geanna Dane: By the way what did Jesus mean by becoming “born again” other than to discard all of ones preconceived notions and experiences (ie. evidence?)?

    You should really study this passage before you apply it in this way.

    Geanna Dane: Sorry but I dont get the point of any of this or how it has any bearing what soever on La Sierra. We are saved by grace through faith and why should we belief that grace is extended only to “evidentiary” faith.

    I am sorry, but I don’t understand your question. When did I state that grace is only extended to “evidentiary” faith? I think you may be at the end of your argument. Forgive me please, I am not trying to offend you. But these are serious matters. We do not have the luxery of being anything other than strait forward.

    If you believe that you are saved by grace, what do you base that on? If you base it on Scripture then you must believe that it has authority. Unless you believe that only certain parts of Scripture have authority. In which case you make yourself the judge of God’s Word. So, we should all follow you, or the professors at LSU, instead of following God’s Word. I doubt it!

    How are we saved if you believe that the creation story is not literally true, just as the Bible states it, in six 24-hour days? Don’t you think it matters? There is nothing more relevant. If the creation story is not true, then all of the Christian faith is a lie.

    Faith is based on God’s Word, not on “evidentiary” science. If the science contradicts God’s Word, it is false, and “blind.”

    “To recognize God in his works, is true science.” The Present Truth, November 4, 1886, EGW

    “We shall have to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. Because finite men do not comprehend the power and greatness of God, science, falsely so-called, and religion will be placed in opposition to each other, and “of your ownselves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” There will be among us those who will so blind their eyes that they will fail to perceive the most wonderful and important truths for this time. Truths which are essential to the safety and salvation of men will be set aside, while ideas that are in comparison to the truth as the merest atoms, will be dwelt upon, and magnified by the power of Satan, so that they will appear of the utmost importance. The moral sight of those who forsake truth has become dim; and yet they do not feel their need of the heavenly anointing, that they may discern spiritual things. They think themselves too wise to err. But those who have not a daily experience in the things of God will not move wisely.” The Review and Herald, January 31, 1893 “Seek First the Kingdom of God,” EGW




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  92. Thank you, Stephen. I will believe in creation because God said it is so and the scriptures said it is so. Physical evidence beyond that is not required. I think you have made clear that faith requires only believing in what God has said.

    But I do hope ee you are not suggesting that bacteria cannot evolve antibiotic resistance because it is not based on God’s word (which IS evolution of course). That would be preposterous andn a misuse of God’s word. The Bible says very little about how organisms can change over time, though Jacob apparetnly had a knack for artificial selection when it came to managing his fathr-in-laws flocks.




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  93. Geanna,

    Thank you for your comment. I agree with you on this point.

    Of course I believe that creatures can change. For instance, there are lizards what have lost their legs. There are trout in Arkansas caves that in the last 60 years have become blind, when their were no trout at all in the caves before that. The changes in species that we are able to observe have always resulted in a more specialized version of the original, which makes them more vulnerable to changes in their environment. Hence, they become weaker, not stronger.

    When bacteria mutate, they do so in order to adapt to their evironment. The ones that survive the pretator (antibiotics) will then multiply and become specialized to survive in that situation. But when the predator (antibiotics) is not present any longer, and the mutated bacteria is placed back in an environment with it’s original parent strain, the original parent strain soon overpowers the specialized, weaker mutated strain until there are none left except the original parent strain. In the same way, of you place those legless lizards outside of the environment they adapted to, an environment where being legless would be a hindrance and an obstacle, they would be unable to survive. Blind trout have no adaptable advantage outside of the caves they dwell in.

    Bacteria will never mutate into anything other than a bacteria. A legless lizard will never be the snake that it resembles at first glance. A trout will never evolve into anything other than a more specialized trout.

    When reading Darwin’s “Origin of Species” in Grad-school I realized that his theory was developed not by scientific evidence he had found in the natural world, but by his observations in breeding domesticated pigeons. When he visitied the Galapagos Islands he had preconceived notions of what he saw in the present, not the past. God designed that their would be great variety in his creation, so that no creature would be exactly the same. This speaks of our individuality, and of God’s intimate love for his creation. Each creature is special.

    Thank you for bringing out this fascinating point.

    God bless.




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