The idea of forcing someone to do what they don’t want to do is generally viewed as something inherently unAmerican and even unChristian. Personal individual liberty is highly valued in Christianity and has historically been one of the foundational building blocks of the government of the United States. After all, the famous phrase of “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. There is also the famous 1775 declaration from Patrick Henry, “Give me liberty or give me death!” – a motto that was shared among all of the Founding Fathers of the United States.
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Table of Contents
- 1 Christian Anarchy?
- 2 Limits of Personal Freedom in a Civil Society:
- 3 The Golden Rule:
- 4 Christian Basis of Civil Law:
- 5 Government Vaccine Mandates vs. Religious Exemption:
- 5.1 Three Groups of People:
- 5.2 Inconsistency:
- 5.2.1 Non-zero personal risk:
- 5.2.2 No Significant Benefit for Others:
- 5.2.3 The Injection of Fetal Cells:
- 5.2.4 Testing with Fetal Cell Lines:
- 5.2.5 The mRNA Vaccines are too New and Untested regarding Long-term Dangers:
- 5.2.6 The Spike Protein produced by the Vaccine is Poisonous:
- 5.2.7 God Never Used Vaccines:
- 5.2.8 All Government Mandates on Vaccines are Morally Wrong:
- 6 Obeying the Government Despite Objection:
- 7 Updates (12/5/2021):
- 8 Bio of Dr. Sean Pitman
Christian Anarchy?
Does this mean, then, that the United States of America, and Christianity in general, stands for complete individual autonomy? – that there is no place for government or the enforcement of civil laws upon those who think themselves “free” to disregard any and all laws and governments with which they do not personally agree? Well, no. The United States does not stand for complete anarchy, and neither does Christianity – a situation where “everyone does what is right in his own eyes” (Judges 17:6). Where then is the balance between personal freedom and the general enforcement of civil laws in a well-governed society?
Limits of Personal Freedom in a Civil Society:
It seems that a well-governed society recognizes the truism that personal liberties end where those of another begin. Borrowing from an earlier speech by John B. Finch, Rev. Dixon illustrated this concept as follows:
A drunken man was going down the street in Baltimore flinging his hands right and left, when one of his arms came across the nose of a passer-by. The passer-by instinctively clenched his fist and sent the intruder sprawling to the ground. He got up, rubbing the place where he was hit, and said, “I would like to know if this is not a land of liberty.” “It is,” said the other fellow; “but I want you to understand that your liberty ends just where my nose begins.” (1894 – At a temperance campaigner named Rev. A. C. Dixon at the “Thirteenth International Christian Endeavor Convention”)
The Golden Rule:
This very same principle also has a basis in the Bible – in the formation of governments and laws set up by God Himself. All of these Biblical laws that govern civil society appear to be based on the basic principle of “loving one’s neighbor as one’s self” (Matthew 22:29 and Leviticus 19:18) and “Do to others as you would have them do to you.” (Luke 6:31). In fact, this concept seems so basic and so self-evident that it is, essentially, a “truism” – something so self-evident that it is hardly worth mentioning.
Christian Basis of Civil Law:
So, the real question here is not if civil governments should exist or if they should enforce civil laws that protect the personal rights and basic liberties of all. Clearly, such governments, along with their ability to enforce civil laws, are set up by God Himself (Romans 13:4). The real question is where to draw the line between allowing personal liberties and protecting the noses of others from those liberties?
Government Vaccine Mandates vs. Religious Exemption:
Of course, the current issue at hand in this regard is over the issue of government mandates regarding the vaccines against COVID-19. Should these mandates be resisted by Christians, in particular? And, should Christians claim a “religious exception” as a reason to disregard these government mandates?
Three Groups of People:
There are at least three groups of people, who oppose the current vaccine mandates, to consider here.
- There are those who believe that the vaccines against COVID-19 are very beneficial in the fight against the pandemic, but who oppose government mandates because of their infringement on personal liberty.
- There are those who believe that the vaccines against COVID-19 are very beneficial in the fight against the pandemic, but who are not in favor of government mandates because they are seen as counterproductive – that there are better ways to promote the general use of the vaccines.
- There are those who believe that the vaccines against COVID-19 are dangerous and poisonous – potentially more risky than the disease itself, and therefore the mandates to take such dangerous vaccines should be opposed on the basis of the concept of one’s personal body being the “Temple of God” (1 Corinthians 6:19). Therefore, no order to defile one’s temple can ever be valid for the Christian. Those in this group of people usually also believe that vaccines don’t prevent or even significantly reduce the transmission of the virus to others and therefore don’t fall under the guidance of the Golden Rule.
Personally, I find myself in the second group rather than the first or the third group. While I personally see the evidence that is currently in hand as being overwhelmingly in favor of the vaccines when it comes to significantly reducing the risk of serious COVID-19 infections, and even the spread of COVID-19, I don’t see the current government mandates, for the general population (with the exception of those working with those who are most at risk of infection – such as hospital or nursing home workers), as being the best and most effective approach. I just see the current use of vaccine mandates as too heavy-handed, resulting in a natural backlash against vaccines for those who are not very very familiar with the basic science as to how these vaccines work, their high level of effectiveness, and their high level of relative safety. Still, I see a big difference between disagreeing with the government and actively disregarding government laws or mandates – or citing religious exemptions when one’s concerns are often really nothing more than personal preferences that are inconsistently applied to various situations.
Inconsistency:
But what about those who believe that the vaccines will actually poison their bodies? – or in some other way defile the “Temple of God”? Shouldn’t such people be given religious exceptions? It would seem as those the answer to this question is a clear-cut and unequivocal yes. However, even here there are shades of gray that involve many and probably most Christians. For example, many who are currently citing a “religious exemption” are not being consistent in their reasons for such a religious exemption – as follows:
Non-zero personal risk:
There are those who argue that even though the risk of the vaccines may be very small, that it’s not zero. Even if there is just a very remote possibility of serious personal injury and death from the vaccines, that it should be up to the individual, not the government, if such a risk should be taken – regardless of the benefit it may have for others or for the society at large.
This is an inconsistent argument because such people generally have no problem with other government mandates that also pose a small personal risk in exchange for the much greater benefit to society that is realized. Examples of such mandates include the wearing of seatbelts or the use of airbags in vehicles. While very rare, airbags and seatbelts are not entirely risk-free. There are numerous examples of people being seriously injured and even killed by airbags and seatbelts. Yet, since the benefits to society at large are so great in comparison, very few complain about such government mandates, much less claim religious exemptions to avoid complying with such mandates.
No Significant Benefit for Others:
There are those who argue that even if the vaccines might offer some personal benefit, that the vaccines offer no significant benefit for others since they do not prevent the virus from spreading to others.
The problem here is that the vaccines, while not 100% effective at preventing viral transmission by any means, do actually significantly reduce the spread of the COVID-19 virus to others (Link). The same is true for the wearing of masks (Link, Link).
This argument is also inconsistent even if only the individual risk were improved by vaccines since reducing the severity of disease for the individual also ends up reducing the number of those who require hospitalization and ICU-levels of care. This ends up reducing the burden on hospitals that have often been stretched beyond the limit during this pandemic.
Again, the claim that a person’s actions during this pandemic, regarding one’s choice to get vaccinated or not, or to mask up in public places or not, don’t significantly affect other people is simply mistaken. Those who live in society don’t live as islands. The Golden Rule therefore always applies since someone else is almost always affected by one’s actions or inactions.
And, even if it were true that it’s vaccination and/or mask-wearing offer nothing more than a perception of safety, that alone should be enough for the Christian – to act in such a way that gives others the impression that their lives and health are important enough to me for me to suffer a bit of risk or inconvenience for their sake alone. That is, after all, what being a Christian is all about since this is exactly what Jesus did for all of us.
The Injection of Fetal Cells:
There are those who believe that the COVID-19 vaccines are created with the use of fetal cell lines, making them immoral for the Christan to use.
The problem here is that the mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 (i.e., the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines) are entirely synthetically produced. They do not require the use of any living cell culture to produce. They also require no adjuvants to enhance the human immune response nor do they require the addition of any preservatives. They only consist of an mRNA sequence, some salts, and some lipids. That’s it. They are, in fact, the “cleanest” vaccines ever produced.
Testing with Fetal Cell Lines:
There are those who argue that because the vaccines against COVID-19 were initially tested on immortal fetal cell lines that were started many decades ago, that it would be immoral for them, as Christians, to take these vaccines as well.
Yet, many of these same Christians use other vaccines or medications, on a regular basis, that were also tested on these very same fetal cell lines. Some of these common over-the-counter medications include Tylenol, Ibuprofen/Motrin, Aspirin, Pepto Bismol, Tums, Lipitor, Senokot, Maalox, Ex-Lax, Benadryl, Sudafed, Preparation H, Claritin, Prilosec, and Zoloft – and numerous others (Link, Link). So, if this argument is to be viewed as consistent, much of modern medicine would be off-limits to such Christians.
Consider also a bit of history behind one of the most popular fetal cell lines in use today – the HEK293 cell line. The original cells for the HEK293 fetal cell line were transformed and immortalized in January 1973 by a young Canadian postdoc by the name of Frank Graham, who was working at the time in Leiden (in the Netherlands) in the laboratory of Professor Alex van der Eb. Normally, a cell can only divide a limited number of times. However, Graham managed to modify these particular cells so that they could divide indefinitely – creating an “immortal” cell line. This was his 293rd experiment, hence the name of the line (HEK stands for “human embryonic kidney cells”). Now, consider that elective abortion was illegal in the Netherlands until 1984 – except to save the life of the mother. Consequently, many researchers now consider it likely that the HEK cell line produced by the Graham was probably originally derived from a spontaneous miscarriage, not an elective abortion (Link).
Either way, getting rid of this cell line at this point and never using it again to expand medical knowledge would seem to be a serious mistake.
The problem is that the use of many such medications and other therapies to treat many diseases is, in fact, based on fetal cell line studies. If one refused to use any knowledge based on such research, if one were to be consistent, any such research could not be used to treat a great many diseases.
In this light, I would suggest, given the potential importance of such information to help a great many people, that this knowledge not be discarded or left unused because of its basis in the use of immortal fetal cell lines that were established many decades ago, probably with the use of a spontaneous miscarriage. Rather, I would suggest that laws be made that make it illegal to use deliberately aborted fetal tissues in the future.
The mRNA Vaccines are too New and Untested regarding Long-term Dangers:
There are those who argue that even though they are not personally against vaccines in general, having used vaccines themselves, that the mRNA vaccine technology is “too new” and that the long-term effects of these vaccines remain unknown.
The problem here is that the mRNA vaccine technology is not new or untested in the long term. It has been around and extensively tested for over 30 years (Link). It has also been extensively used in the clinical setting for many years to treat other diseases with good success and a very good safety record (Link).
The Spike Protein produced by the Vaccine is Poisonous:
There are those who claim that the spike protein is “poisonous” to the body and therefore should not be taken since it would harm the Temple of God.
While there are risks to the modern vaccines against COVID-19, serious risks are very rare – similar to the risks associated with having airbags in cars or wearing seatbelts. These risks are well-known now since the extensive double-blinded placebo-controlled trials and since the use of these vaccines by hundreds of millions of people (Link). So, as previously noted, the refusal to take on a tiny risk, despite the benefits to others and to society as a whole, just comes across as inconsistency for those who have no problem with taking on other very similar risks that also benefit society.
God Never Used Vaccines:
There are those who cite the Levitical laws in the Bible dealing with what to do with those who come down with some kind of sickness or infection, noting that God never commanded the use of anything like vaccines to treat the healthy or any kind of quarantine for those who were healthy – only for those who were already sick.
Levitical Laws:
It is interesting to note here that the Levitical laws listed in the Bible dealing with those who were infected or sick put serious restrictions on the personal liberties of these people for the sake of protecting the community as a whole. Again, the basic moral principle of personal liberties ending with the beginning of another person’s nose is illustrated here – in the Bible.
Of course, the Bible didn’t cover all possible advances in medical knowledge or medical care. For example, God didn’t explain anything regarding the existence of infectious bacteria or viruses as the underlying cause of various diseases. He just gave some basic rules of thumb on how best to limit disease within a community – without providing all of the biological details behind these rules. God didn’t give information on the development or use of antibiotics here either. Yet, most Christians have no problem with the use of antibiotics when it comes to treating serious bacterial infections. God also didn’t explain the biochemistry of the innate or adaptive human immune systems. Yet few Christians have a problem with the concept that modern scientific advances have greatly benefited mankind when to comes to fighting infections by bacteria, viruses, and various other parasites that have long plagued humanity. Some who wouldn’t think of getting vaccinated have no problem with off-label uses of anti-paracytic drugs like ivermectin to treat viral diseases like COVID-19 infections (despite the lack of scientific evidence) – which seems rather inconsistent. God didn’t even explain, within the Levitical Laws at least, the use of many of the health messages given to Mrs. White – to include hot/cold fomentations, activated charcoal, or a vegan diet (which would have been impractical throughout most of Biblical history after the Flood – until the invention of refrigeration).
Ellen White on Useful Medical Advances:
For Seventh-day Adventists, in particular, Ellen White was a strong promoter of the best advances of modern medicine in her day – to include the use of medications like quinine to treat malaria (despite calling quinine a “poison” when it came to general frivolous uses of her day). Beyond this, she recognized the advantages of anesthesia during surgery and the use of medicines to relieve the intense pain and suffering of the injured or sick (Link). She recommended blood transfusions when needed, despite the risks involved (Link) – and even had radiation therapy to resolve a skin lesion on her face (Link). And yes, she even approved of the smallpox vaccine for her son, William White, and his staff and was vaccinated against smallpox herself according to her personal secretary (Link).
Tim Perenich:
It seems particularly inconsistent, then, for Seventh-day Adventist Christians to argue that if some medical concept wasn’t specifically described by the Bible, that Christians shouldn’t take advantage of it or that any such treatments or mandates should be actively opposed with exemptions claimed “on Biblical grounds”. Still, there are a number of outspoken SDA Christians who are doing this very thing. Tim Perenich for example, a chiropractor who is fairly popular among SDAs who are opposed to vaccines on supposedly Biblical grounds, has recently promoted such arguments in a 4.5-hour panel discussion with Drs. Margaret Song and Roger Seheult (Link).
Scott Ritsema and Dr. Lela Lewis:
Other fairly well-known voices who are opposed to vaccines and particularly to vaccine mandates, like the evangelist Scott Ritsema and Dr. Lela Lewis, for example, are urging the SDA Church, as an organization, to make a public statement against government vaccine mandates. They write:
“It is time for our Church to speak clearly in defending liberty of conscience on this matter, and the appeal below is offered in a spirit of Christian concern. Our Church has an obligation to lead in this crisis, not only for ourselves, but for millions of others around the world who are looking for hope. We must provide it. You are invited to add your voice by signing the appeal.” (Liberty and Health Alliance)
Response of the Seventh-day Adventist Church:
While the legal counsel of the SDA Church does provide options for individuals to seek religious exemptions, it would be inconsistent for the SDA Church itself, as an organization, to come out against government mandates regarding COVID-19 vaccines, in particular, while not also speaking out against the numerous other long-standing government mandates regarding various other types of vaccines and medical laws in general. It simply is not the place of the church, as an organization, to oppose the government along such lines since these mandates do not specifically undermine any direct command of God given to us in the Bible. In fact, the SDA Church has come out in favor of the use of vaccines during this pandemic (Link). At least part of the reason for this decision involves the action of Mrs. White when, as previously mentioned, she approved of her own son, William White, along with his staff, getting vaccinated against smallpox – and was, according to her long-time personal secretary, personally vaccinated against smallpox as well (Link).
For such reasons, the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church summarizes its position on this topic as follows (quoted in part – October 25, 2021):
The current position of the Church on immunization and vaccines, including COVID-19, builds on the insights of the comprehensive health message Seventh-day Adventists have endorsed early on with ample support in Scripture and the writings of Ellen G. White that refer to the importance of disease prevention. As a denomination, we have advocated the synergy of a healthy lifestyle and responsible immunization for more than one hundred years. In the light of the global magnitude of the pandemic, the deaths, disability, and long-term COVID-19 effects that are emerging in all age groups, we encourage our members to consider responsible immunization and the promotion and facilitation of the development of what is commonly termed herd immunity (pre-existing community immunity of approximately 80 percent of the population or more as a result of previous infection and/or vaccination)…
Public health practices have been mandated from the time of Moses and, probably, earlier. More recent examples of mandated public health practices include the banning of smoking on aircraft, and the use of safety belts as a general requirement for all motor vehicles. Over the past 120 years, mandated smallpox vaccination has been implemented in the United States general population and in countries around the world, resulting in a smallpox-free world at present. Numerous other infectious diseases have been brought under control by vaccinations and have also been subject to mandates (e.g. polio, measles, diphtheria). Seventh-day Adventist missionaries in the 1930s were instructed by the Church, as their employer, to receive the smallpox and typhoid immunizations. These requirements have been shared widely over the years in the Church’s official publications and acceptance of this requirement by Church members has been positive overall. The requirements for missionaries to be appropriately and responsibly vaccinated continue today. Ellen White did not comment on the issue of religious liberty in connection with vaccination mandates in her lifetime. She clearly understood the wholistic health message entrusted to the Church better than most…
The Seventh-day Adventist Church is not opposed to public safety and government health mandates. Submission to government authorities is a biblical principle unless it conflicts with obedience to God (Matthew 22:21; Romans 13:1-7). In many cases the Seventh-day Adventist Church has supported government mandates in support of health and safety issues. When it comes to COVID-19 vaccinations, we believe individuals have the right to state and defend their conviction whether to be vaccinated or not. Mandates usually allow exemptions for individual religious convictions or health conditions. With widespread personal testing available, individuals may choose instead to submit to regular testing if required…
We recognize that at times our members will have personal concerns and even conscientious convictions that go beyond the teachings and positions of the Church. In these cases, the Church’s religious liberty leaders will do what they can to provide support and counsel on a personal basis, not as a Church position, even at times assisting members in writing their own personal accommodation requests to employers and others. To avoid confusion, however, about the Church’s own positions, it will often be the case that in such circumstances the Church will not wish its support or advocacy for the member to be reflected in public correspondence or communications. It is important that the Church preserve its ability to speak to issues that are central to its system of beliefs and identity, and that its influence not be diluted by pursuing personal convictions and agendas that are not central to its Gospel and prophetic concerns.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church, in consultation with the Health Ministries and Public Affairs and Religious Liberty departments of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, is convinced that the vaccination programs that are generally being carried out are important for the safety and health of our members and the larger community. Therefore, claims of religious liberty are not used appropriately in objecting to government mandates or employer programs designed to protect the health and safety of their communities.
This has generally been the position of the Church for the last century, since the modern vaccine program was developed. If we use our religious liberty resources in such personal decision advocacy efforts, we believe that we will weaken our religious liberty stance in the eyes of the government and the public. Such efforts would make it less likely that these arguments will be heard and appreciated when they are used for matters of worship and religious practice. We understand that some of our members view things differently, and we respect those convictions. They may at times have rights that can be pursued under the law, and we will point them towards materials and resources for doing so but cannot directly undertake this personal effort for them.
GENERAL CONFERENCE: Reaffirming the Seventh-day Adventist Church’s Response to COVID-19
This document has been produced by the General Conference Administration, Biblical Research Institute, General Conference Health Ministries, Public Affairs and Religious Liberty Department, General Conference Office of General Counsel, and Loma Linda University Health. It builds on the immunization statement voted in April 2015 and affirms both this latter statement, and the information on the COVID-19 vaccines shared on December 22, 2020.
Regarding vaccines for COVID-19, the North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists also writes:
In line with this commitment, the NAD fully supports the Seventh-day Adventist Church’s statement encouraging “responsible immunization/vaccination,” and as such has “no religious or faith-based reason not to encourage [its] adherents to responsibly participate in protective and preventive immunization programs.”
While the Church’s statement recognizes it is “not the conscience of the individual church member, and recognize[s] individual choices,” the choice not to be vaccinated is not based on Seventh-day Adventist Church teachings or doctrine. For this reason, the Adventist church in North America does not provide Church-endorsed vaccine exemption request letters.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church respects convictions of conscience. While the NAD cannot endorse that vaccine refusal represents Adventist teachings, your local Union Public Affairs and Religious Liberty ministry is available to advise you in writing your own letter if you choose to pursue an individual vaccine exemption. (Link)
All Government Mandates on Vaccines are Morally Wrong:
There are those who think that anything that goes into one’s body is strictly a personal choice – that no government can ethically mandate what one does or doesn’t put into one’s body.
The problem here is that many of these same people haven’t had any problem with historical government vaccine mandates regarding situations like working in a hospital or attending a school. Vaccine mandates are nothing new. Many states have long required healthcare workers to have various vaccinations (Link). Many states have also long required various vaccinations for child care, pre-K, and K-12 school attendance (Link). So, if one is to be consistent here, one should oppose all such mandates. Of course, there are some who do homeschool their children and who do not work in public healthcare jobs for this very reason. Anything else would seem to be inconsistent when it comes to the claim of “religious exemption” status.
Obeying the Government Despite Objection:
What if I just disagree with the government, but my disagreement isn’t clearly a moral disagreement regarding a direct command of God?
Going the Second Mile:
Consider, for example, the situation of a Jewish man during the time of the Roman occupation during the time of Jesus. The was a Roman law, a mandate if you will, that a Roman soldier could order, at will, any Jewish man to carry his equipment for one mile. Such Roman laws were absolutely hated by the Jews. Yet, what did Jesus advise one to do if such a command were given?
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. – Matthew 5:38-42
Paul also says basically the same thing here:
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. – Romans 13:1
This is true even if one feels that one must give up some rightful personal liberty or that one’s personal liberties are being taken away.
The Golden Image:
As another example of this, consider what happened to Daniel and his three friends. Their city was destroyed and their parents were likely killed by a foreign government – a government who then forcibly marched them over 1600 miles to Babylon and then castrated them. They had every reason to be angry and rebellious against anything having to do with such a government. Yet, how did they respond when given the high privilege of eating food from the king’s table? – something that they knew would injure their own health? Did they respond to what was intended as a generous offer from their enemies with a rebellious and belligerent spirit? Not at all. Rather, they respectfully and very tactfully approached the commander explaining their situation and asking that he scientifically test the claims of “his servants” for “ten days”? – to see for himself if they were telling the truth or not? (Daniel 1:12).
The same thing happened when they were called, by the king, to the Plain of Dura where a golden statue had been set up. They obeyed this command despite knowing, full well, its purpose. They obeyed as far as they could without directly violating a clear command of God. It wasn’t until the command to actually worship the golden image was given that they disobeyed the law of the land – in favor of the Law of God. Even at this time, note, however, that they continued to address the king in the most respectful tone possible.
“King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us from Your Majesty’s hand. But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” (Daniel 3:16-18)
This is also what we should be striving for today, in relation to the mandates of modern governments.
Ellen White on Government Mandates:
As Ellen White put it:
“In cases where we are brought before the courts, we are to give up our rights, unless it brings us in collision with God. It is not our rights we are pleading for, but God’s right to our service.” (Ellen White, Manuscript Releases 5:69 – 1895)
“The time will come when unguarded expressions of a denunciatory character, that have been carelessly spoken or written by our brethren, will be used by our enemies to condemn us. These will not be used merely to condemn those who made the statements, but will be charged upon the whole body of Adventists. Our accusers will say that on such and such a day one of our responsible men said thus and so against the administration of the laws of this government. Many will be astonished to see how many things have been cherished and remembered that will give point to the arguments of our adversaries. Many will be surprised to hear their own words strained into a meaning that they did not intend them to have. Then let our workers be careful to speak guardedly at all times and under all circumstances. Let all beware lest by reckless expressions they bring on a time of trouble before the great crisis which is to try men’s souls.” (Ellen White, Counsels for the Church, p. 317)
Regarding National Sunday Laws: “The Sabbath must be taught in a decided manner, but be cautious how you deal with the idol Sunday. A word to the wise is sufficient…. Refraining from work on Sunday is not receiving the mark of the beast; and where this will advance the interests of the work, it should be done. We should not go out of our way to work on Sunday… After the Sabbath has been carefully observed, in places where the opposition is so strong as to arouse persecution if work is done on Sunday, let our brethren make that day an occasion to do genuine missionary work. Let them visit the sick and the poor, ministering to their wants, and they will find favorable opportunities to open the scriptures to individuals and to families. (Ellen White, Maranatha, p. 177 and Letters and Manuscripts, Vol. 10 (1895), par. 18)
Note here that A. T. Jones, one of the founding fathers of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and strong proponent of righteousness by faith, never accepted Mrs. White’s advice regarding how to deal with national Sunday laws. He felt that any government law commanding Sunday observance should be actively and very openly resisted – by working on Sunday in direct conflict with the law. In fact, in response to Mrs. White’s advice to avoid actively breaking any national Sunday law, Jones wrote a pamphlet in 1909 entitled, “The Ten Commandments for Sunday Observance” in which he flatly accuse Ellen White of advocating that Adventists accept the Mark of the Beast. (Link)
Such disagreements with Mrs. White wouldn’t end here, and would eventually lead to Jones leaving the SDA Church and actively fighting against it. He began, along with Kellogg, to insinuate that not all of Ellen White’s testimonies were inspired by God and that she was being manipulated by her son and the General Conference leaders. (Link)
Individual Rights Not the Main Issue:
Our individual rights, while certainly very nice while they last, just aren’t the main issue for the Christian. The main issue for the Christian is how best to represent God and His Law and His Grace and the Gospel Message that He has given us for these Last Days of Earth’s history.
So, even if a Christian may personally disagree with this or that government mandate, to include the current government mandates regarding vaccines against COVID-19, such disagreements, despite how strongly they may be held or how right they may be, are not the basis for open disregard of the actual mandate itself – as long as the mandate doesn’t directly violate a very clear command of God Himself where the Christian is called to be entirely consistent. In other words, the Christian can tactfully and respectfully disagree with the government and still obey the government and its laws and mandates at the same time – as long as they do not directly conflict with a clear command of God. In this way, it will make acceptance of our Gospel Message to the world that much easier to accept by those who are open to the call of the Spirit of God and that much harder for the enemies of God to refute.
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Updates (12/5/2021):
Southwestern Union Response to NAD Memorandum on OSHA ETS:
In a November 11 letter addressed to the NAD Secretariat, the Southwestern Union wrote, “In light of prophetic understanding, we formally request the [NAD] and the Office of General Counsel review the OSHA Emergency Temporary Standard and consider the conflicts it presents with the beliefs and practices of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.”
The subject line of the letter reads: “Southwestern Union Response to NAD Memorandum on OSHA ETS.”
However, according to the NAD, there was no memorandum. Instead, the division sent an email to the unions and conferences asking if they had received “inquiries” or “questions” about the new OSHA guidelines.
The Southwestern Union’s letter does not detail the ETS guidance, instead stating, “It is our belief that the church should not be the enforcer of government policy, as we believe in the steadfast adherence to the Seventh-day Adventist Church principle of separation of church and state.” OSHA experts have stated that the ETS is not a vaccine mandate as it allows testing and mask-wearing as a workplace alternative.
The union’s letter says that it speaks on behalf of all its constituent conferences as well as Southwestern Adventist University, stating that these entities “are prepared to present this issue to their executive committees for authorization to disregard” the OSHA ETS. Calling the regulations “government overreach and violation of church-state separation,” the union concludes: “We ask that the [NAD], and the office of General Counsel provide counsel, advice, and defense against penalties for such actions.”
In a statement to Spectrum on December 3, the division responded with the following:
The North American Division (NAD) is aware that there are multiple legal challenges to the OSHA Emergency Temporary Standard (ETS) regarding mandatory vaccinations and that the whole question is presently in a state of flux. We are also aware of the differing individual and institutional points of view on the subject.
As a denomination, we respect an individual’s right and freedom of choice to make responsible decisions regarding their own health. We also encourage each of our church entities to make decisions that are best suited to their particular circumstances and reflect the spirit of community love and caring, which we are compelled to practice. The NAD has no intention to mandate that Adventist organizations adopt or comply with these OSHA regulations, but will provide guidance and resources to assist our organizations in their decision making.
Currently, no other unions appear to have publicly joined the Southwestern leadership by citing a “prophetic understanding” in opposing regulatory efforts to minimize the risk of viral transmission in the workplace.
Interview with Steve Allred, Esq:
Christians and Freedom: Vaccine Mandates and Personal Exemptions
Stephen Allred is a Seventh-day Adventist pastor and also an attorney who serves as Of Counsel to the Church State Council. He received a bachelor’s degree from Hartland College in 1998, a Master of Divinity from Andrews University in 2005, and a Juris Doctor from the University of the Pacific, McGeorge School of Law in 2012.
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Bio of Dr. Sean Pitman
Dr. Sean Pitman is a pathologist, with subspecialties in anatomic, clinical, and hematopathology, currently working in N. California. He’s also a life-long Seventh-day Adventist, the son of a retired SDA minister, and is very active in his local church.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan
Interesting article from Vanity Fair. (Not exactly a conservative source.)
The whole COVID19 saga stinks in my humble opinion.
If you look at the whole picture I can certainly understand why people are reluctant to go along with government mandates. Myself included.
Don E Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentIt should be no surprise to anyone familiar with governments or militaries around the world that “gain of function” bioweapon research is taking place. All governments that are able are doing this type of research – and have been for a long time. Does government denial along these lines cause distrust? Of course it does, but this shouldn’t be the deciding factor when it comes to taking the vaccine or not.
The fact is that we are now in a pandemic that is a real pandemic – regardless of how it started. The vaccines work and they are far FAR safer and less risky than getting infected by the COVID-19 virus itself. That’s based on very good independent scientific evidence from multiple very good and very reliable independent sources – not generated by the government or by “big pharma”.
As far as mandates are concerned, as noted in my article, I think that general population mandates regarding vaccines against COVID-19 will end up being less effective than other actions that could have been taken instead. Regardless, the question is if we as Christians should cite “religious exemption” other otherwise try to disobey the law here? I personally think not. I think that such efforts against the government will also end up being counterproductive to our mission to spread the Gospel – as noted in more detail in my article.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentI find your comments interesting, illuminating, and disturbing.
It’s like you are saying: “Meh, the US government was funding research at the CCP’s Wuhan Viral Institute. Something happened, get over it and deal with the pandemic. Take the vaccine.”
I’m not even sure what my further response to this is at this time. But I am certainly going to do more independent reading and research into the origin of COVID19 and the US government’s (and my tax dollars) involvement.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentI’m just saying that it should surprise no one that all governments who are capable have long studied how to produce biological weapons. Ever heard of weaponized anthrax, for instance? When I was in the army working in S. Korea over 20 years ago, I was given five vaccines against anthrax for this very reason – because N. Korea had this technology.
Our own government studies such technology because, if we didn’t, we wouldn’t be as effective against enemies who have also studied and have produced biological weapons. You might think that this is a serious evil, but that’s the nature of war and of military secrets. As many have said, “War is Hell”. I wish this world weren’t this way, but this is, in fact, the way it is.
Regardless, the current situation is what it is as well. Regardless of its origin, the COVID-19 pandemic is real and it is serious. And, the vaccines against COVID-19 clearly work. They are amazingly effective and have a very high degree of safety. It’s just foolish to be so upset that governments research biological weapons (while denying that they do it) that one also refuses to get vaccinated – despite the overwhelming independent science in support of the mRNA vaccines.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentAspirin was developed and used long before aborted fetal tissue testing methods began. So it is incorrect to include it in the list of meds claimed to have been dependent on this controversial issue.
Franz(Quote)
View CommentWhile it is true that aspirin was developed in 1897 (before modern fetal cell lines were produced), it is not true that aspirin hasn’t been tested since this time on fetal cell lines to determine the mechanism(s) of action as a potential treatment for various diseases – treatments that go well beyond its original use to treat fevers, headaches, and the like.
The problem is that the use of aspirin to treat such diseases is, in fact, based on fetal cell line studies. This would mean that, if one were to be consistent, that aspirin could not be used to treat such diseases since this knowledge was gained via research that used fetal cell lines.
In this light, I would suggest, given the potential importance of such information to help a great many people, that this knowledge not be discarded or left unused because of its basis in the use of immortal fetal cell lines that were established many decades ago. Rather, I would suggest that laws be made that make it illegal to use deliberately aborted fetal tissues in this manner in the future.
Consider also a bit of history behind one of the most popular fetal cell lines in use today – the HEK293 cell line. The original cells for the HEK293 fetal cell line were transformed and immortalized in January 1973 by a young Canadian postdoc by the name of Frank Graham, who was working at the time in Leiden (in the Netherlands) in the laboratory of Professor Alex van der Eb. Normally, a cell can only divide a limited number of times. However, Graham managed to modify these particular cells so that they could divide indefinitely – creating an “immortal” cell line. This was his 293rd experiment, hence the name of the line (HEK stands for “human embryonic kidney cells”). Now, consider that elective abortion was illegal in the Netherlands until 1984 – except to save the life of the mother. Consequently, many researchers now consider it likely that the HEK cell line produced by the Graham was probably originally derived from a spontaneous miscarriage, not an elective abortion (Link).
Either way, getting rid of this cell line at this point and never using it again to expand medical knowledge would seem to be a serious mistake.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentI see COVID19 patient’s on a regular basis, in the clinic and ER, at this small hospital where I work in Montana. In the past month I have seen 5 patients with COVID19 who previously had the complete Moderna vaccines earlier in the year. Four of these patients were seen in the ER and had to be admitted to the hospital. One was an RN who had undergone employee testing and only had mild symptoms.
So it has become obvious to me that these “break through” infections are fairly common, at least with the Moderna vaccine. It does seem that the vaccine lowers the intubation rate in very sick patients.
But I still have serious questions and reservations about this “vaccinate everyone” approach. Only time and epidemiologic data will eventually answer these questions.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentMild breakthrough infections for the fully vaccinated are quite common because the antibodies produced in response to the mRNA vaccines are largely blood-based. They provide less protection when it comes to mucosal nasopharyngeal infections, especially over time as antibody levels decrease. However, the vaccine does result in significant protection against serious infections and death because the immunity produced is largely able to prevent the spread of the virus from the nasopharynx into the bloodstream to the rest of the body – even over the long term due to the generation of memory B- and T-cells. Booster shots after 6-8 months are particularly helpful for those over the age of 65 and those with compromised immune systems where vaccine-based antibody levels decline more rapidly over time (memory B- and T-cells still remain longer-term). While serious infections and even deaths do occasionally happen in the fully vaccinated, this happens far less commonly than for those who are not vaccinated.
The “vaccinate everyone approach” is helpful when it comes to achieving “herd immunity” more quickly. It also is much safer and less risky for every age category, including children, compared to the risk of going through a natural COVID-19 infection. There simply is no reasonable biological mechanism whereby exposing the body to a small modified piece of the COVID-19 virus would somehow be more risky than exposing the body to a full-blown infection by a huge number of live fully-intact COVID-19 viruses. How does that make any sense to anyone?
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentSean, you sound like you have drank someone’s Koolaid. Seriously.
“……How does that make any sense to anyone?” Every single thing you said here is debatable and not nearly as clear cut as you are trying to make it.
The “break through” infections that I have seen with the Moderna vaccine are not “mild infections”. Some had covid pneumonia and severe hypoxia, and required hospitalization.
Have you listened to Dr Robert Malone’s discussion about the pros and cons of the “vaccinate everyone” approach. Again, this is not nearly as clear cut as you are trying to make it.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentAs already mentioned, while there are certainly some serious breakthrough infections and even deaths for those who are fully vaccinated, these are far less common than mild breakthrough infections and are certainly far less common than serious infections and deaths for those who have not been vaccinated (within a given age category), by a ratio of more than 11:1. You probably personally see the more serious breakthrough cases because you primarily see those who actually end up coming to the hospital.
Dr. Robert Malone is very conspiratorial in this thinking and has made many claims regarding COVID-19 and the mRNA vaccines that simply aren’t true. He’s just not a reliable source of information as far as I’ve been able to tell.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentChildren Shouldn’t Get COVID-19 Vaccines, Harvard Professor Says
Thank God that there are still some physicians thinking clearly about COVID19.
Harvard Epidemiologist Martin Kulldorff on the COVID ‘Public Health Fiasco’
Video, COVID-19, Healthcare & Welfare, Peter HolleSeptember 2, 2021 (Link)
“Those who are pushing these vaccine mandates and vaccine passports … they’re doing so much more damage to vaccine confidence than anybody else,” says Dr. Martin Kulldorff, one of the world’s leading epidemiologists.
This video interview with Kulldorf is an interesting deep dive on COVID-19 immunity, vaccines, the Delta variant, and his observation that the global COVID response has been the “biggest public health fiasco in history.”
Dr. Martin Kulldorff is a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School and a biostatistician and epidemiologist at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital. He helped develop the CDC’s current system for monitoring potential vaccine risks, and he is also one of the co-authors of the Great Barrington Declaration, which argued for “focused protection” of the most vulnerable, instead of lockdowns.
THERE ARE OTHER PERSPECTIVES TO THIS THAN THE ONE THAT YOU ARE PROMOTING SEAN
Regarding your comments above about Dr Robert Malone. I honestly can not believe that you posted a link to the liberal hit piece in the Atlantic. You are putting your own credibility in jeopardy Sean.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentWhile vaccinating children is certainly more of a gray area as compared to vaccinating adults and those with pre-existing medical conditions, there are benefits to vaccinating children that Dr. Martin Kulldorff failed to mention – such as injuries that happen even if a child doesn’t die. These injuries and longer-term problems aren’t exactly rare either – as described in my article on this topic (Link). There is also the issue of children spreading the virus to others who are more susceptible.
Even death, while relatively uncommon among children compared to older adults, is still a problem. Almost 700 children have died from COVID-19 in the US so far. While this might seem to be similar to a normal flu season where between 34-200 children die during a given year, keep in mind that these numbers are affected by flu vaccinations that are given to children every year. Flu shots are widely available to all kids, while no COVID vaccines have been authorized for children under 12. More than half of children, around 60%, get their flu shot each year. This significantly reduces the death rate for children who are vaccinated since the vast majority (~90%) of kids who die from the flu each year are unvaccinated. That means, if you compare apples to apples, the flu death rate for children would be much higher without the annual flu vaccine – which is the reason why a flu vaccine for children has been made available. Why then should we not make a COVID vaccine available for children as well?
As far as the known risks of vaccines for children, these risks are still far less than the risks of getting infected by the live virus – for every significant risk one can list.
It is for this reason that the FDA advisory panel unanimously voted, yesterday, to approve the reduced dose Pfizer vaccine for children ages 5-11 (Link).
Regarding Dr. Malone, I’ve read his arguments and have personally found him to be very sensational in his claims regarding COVID-19 and the mRNA vaccines – and often completely mistaken. He certainly hasn’t offered up any credible reason for his claims regarding the supposed dangers of the vaccines. He hasn’t presented any credible biological mechanism whereby an mRNA vaccine would likely cause more damage than a COVID-19 infection. Do you know of any such mechanism that hasn’t already been very carefully investigated? I don’t. And, I fail to see where Dr. Malone has come up with some such tenable argument either. For example, Dr. Malone has presented the argument that COVID-19 vaccines will make SARS-CoV-2 more dangerous due to a mechanism called antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). The problem here is that this claim isn’t backed up by any evidence. The question of ADE was forefront in the minds of those working on the mRNA vaccines and the spike protein was modified specifically to avoid this risk (Link, Link). And, there simply hasn’t been any evidence of ADE since the vaccine has been given to hundreds of millions of people (Link). Clearly, Dr. Malone was mistaken here. Then you have the claim of Dr. Malone that the mRNA vaccines would create an evolutionary “arms race”, leading to the accelerated generation of vaccine-resistant COVID-19 variants. Well, this claim is based on a mistaken assumption that vaccines work in the same way antibiotics work against bacteria. This assumption simply isn’t true. Unlike the imprudent use of antibiotics, which act in a very targeted way against very specific antigens so that resistance can be gained via very minor antigen modifications, vaccines don’t enhance the production of resistant viral strains since vaccines educate the human immune system to attack a broader range of foreign antigens. The resulting effect is just the opposite of what Dr. Malone has claimed. Resistant COVID-19 strains arise at a much greater rate in areas where there is little immune resistance to the virus. Indeed, of the four existing variants of concern to date, all four emerged in 2020, long before the start of public vaccination campaigns. In particular, the Delta variant, which has been making headlines around the world, was first detected in October 2020. This observation demonstrates that halting vaccination efforts won’t stop the emergence of virus variants—after all, variants are entirely capable of emerging in the absence of vaccination. Natural immunity following infection would simply offer no significant advantage in this regard. Again, Dr. Malone got it wrong. What then, of any real concern, did he get right?
Now, if you think this is a mistaken view of Dr. Malone, and that the article I cited was an unfair “hit piece” against a very reasonable man, by all means, do explain to me why you think he’s correct in his claims against the mRNA vaccines. Explain to me the mechanism by which these mRNA vaccines are more dangerous to the body compared to an actual COVID-19 infection…
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentPeople can read Dr Martin Kulldorff’s and Dr Robert Malone’s, and others, articles for themselves and decide.
I still find it perplexing and disturbing that you are standing by a liberal hit piece in the Atlantic. Like I said, you are putting your own credibility on the line, in my opinion.
This will be my last post here on COVID19. I don’t think that anything more will be productive or helpful.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentCertainly, people can indeed read all of these things for themselves. That’s the whole point of having a comment section.
For my part, I’ve explained in some detail my reasoning for my various positions, in response to some of your arguments that I personally find less than convincing – including my problems with many of the claims of Dr. Malone.
You, on the other hand, don’t seem interested in actually explaining why you think his arguments, or the arguments of a handful of others, against the mRNA vaccines are correct. Yet again I ask you, by what mechanism? Where’s the actual evidence?
I don’t care who you are. I don’t care if you’re from Harvard or Yale or have a Nobel Prize. Without good evidence to back you up, arguments from authority alone, or personal anecdotal stories, just aren’t helpful or credible if the weight of generally-available scientific evidence is pointing in another direction. So, you see, just a few details based on the weight of actual evidence would be helpful here… and not just for me! 😉
But yes, listing off more of the same types of unsupported claims, without any substantive response or detailed explanations to the counter-evidence presented, really isn’t productive or helpful here… and never was.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentSean
I’m not sure where you are coming from sometimes. I almost detect hostility in your tone here.
“You, on the other hand, don’t seem interested in actually explaining why you think his arguments, or the arguments of a handful of others, against the mRNA vaccines are correct. Yet again I ask you, by what mechanism? Where’s the actual evidence?”
I don’t pretend to be an epidemiologist or infectious disease specialist, like you do. I work in a primary care clinic, ER, and a small rural hospital taking care of inpatients and nursing home patients. I have seen and treated quite a few covid patients over the last 2 years. Many of our nursing patients died of covid before the vaccine was availabe. The vaccine has decreased the mortality in nursing home patients. (Just curious, how many covid patients have you actually seen and treated Sean?)
I don’t believe a fellow like Dr Martin Kildorff is speaking without evidence. In fact, if you actually read that article, he talks about the data from Sweden regarding covid and children.
“Dr. Martin Kulldorff is a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School and a biostatistician and epidemiologist at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital. He helped develop the CDC’s current system for monitoring potential vaccine risks, and he is also one of the co-authors of the Great Barrington Declaration, which argued for “focused protection” of the most vulnerable, instead of lockdowns.”
So if a person with Dr Kulldorff’s credentials as an epidemiologist and CDC advisor recommends no vaccine for children, I take note. And I would probably go with his recommendation over yours (you being a pathologist in California).
I don’t care who YOU are either Sean. I will do my own research and draw my own conclusions. I was AOA class of 1983 at Loma Linda. I do have a functioning brain also.
Regarding Dr Robert Malone. I find some of his arguments cogent. But I don’t have the time or desire to try and defend every comment of his with “evidence” like you seem to want. People can listen to him for themselves and draw their own conclusions.
But again Sean. Please please don’t resort to liberal hit pieces like the one in Vanity Fair to support your positions. It really really does not look good and is not helpful.
Best regards
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentLook, I’ve read all of the articles that you’ve presented to me. Then, I presented some counter evidence that made good sense to me. You didn’t respond in kind. That’s fine, but don’t expect to simply cite the arguments of those who hold a very minority position within the scientific/medical community and expect no push back or challenge – especially when it comes to some of the arguments that have been forwarded by those such as Dr. Malone that are clearly false and/or misleading. He just loses credibility when he makes some of the outlandish claims that he has made. And, Tom Bartlett (of The Atlantic) is by no means the only one to point this out – even though I think he was pretty even-handed in his article (interesting that you start off the discussion with a Vanity Fair article that you found “interesting”, but jump all over me when I cite an Atlantic article back to you). Many scientists and prominent doctors have come out against the claims forwarded by Dr. Malone. What do you do with their arguments? Do you just dismiss them out of hand?
There are very good reasons why the vaccines are strongly supported by the significant majority of scientists and physicians around the world, to include the significant majority of epidemiologists. Interestingly, contrary to the claims of Dr. Malone, 88% of epidemiologists think that persistent low vaccine coverage in many countries would make it more likely for vaccine-resistant mutations to appear (Link). This only makes biological sense given that the immune system doesn’t work in the same way as antibiotics work (Dr. Malone seems to be confused here). Most epidemiologists also think that health care providers should be required to be vaccinated against COVID-19:
Sure, as previously mentioned, the decision to vaccinate children is not as clear-cut as it is for vaccinating adults. However, this also doesn’t mean that the decision to do so is without good evidence or that Dr. Kulldorff knows something that no one else knows. That’s just not true. The evidence that he mentions is limited in that he fails to address quite a bit of evidence that seems to work against him. That’s the problem. He simply doesn’t seem to effectively address the totality of evidence that is currently available on this question.
As far as me being “hostile” toward you, what have I said that you interpret as hostility? – beyond a simple disagreement? You’re the one saying that you find my position “disturbing” and that I’m the one who “drank someone’s Koolaid” and occasionally respond in ALL CAPS like you’re shouting at me. Where have I responded to you in such a “hostile” manner?
I’m not questioning your intelligence. Graduating AOA is wonderful. The fact remains, however, that this simply isn’t helpful to me or to anyone else who might question your position on this topic. While I don’t treat patients, as a pathologist, I work in the hospitals around here on a daily basis – particularly dealing with the hospital labs. I see the COVID patients in the ICUs. I see their lab results deteriorate over time. I know when they die and why they die. We lost 10 people over the last couple of days to COVID – to include three less than 50 years old. My brother-in-law, the well-known pulmonologist Dr. Roger Seheult who works in S. Cal and runs an ICU there also graduated AOA. He directly treats COVID patients and personally holds their hands as they die – the vast majority of whom are unvaccinated. This includes young otherwise healthy people as well. Roger is begging people to get vaccinated – for very good reason. He sees the devastation that COVID is causing firsthand. He’s seen his ICUs filled well beyond capacity with the unvaccinated. Rationing care has been a real problem. This is a real pandemic that has fast become a pandemic of the unvaccinated due to the influence of those like Dr. Malone and the misinformation about vaccines that he, and a handful of others like him, have been spreading around.
The risks associated with the vaccines are minimal in comparison to the risks of getting infected by COVID-19 – they truly are. This is apparently true even for young otherwise healthy people – particularly when one considers the damage that a COVID-19 infection can do to otherwise young healthy people who don’t end up dying, but end up with long-term injuries instead. So, if you still think otherwise, please do explain the mechanism to me – because Dr. Malone certainly doesn’t do so in any way that makes any sense. If you can do better, I’m all ears.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentI have nothing more to add.
The readers can decide for themselves.
Time well eventually tell more about this whole covid saga.
Don E Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentIndeed…
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentStructure of SARS-CoV-2 spike protein
Current Opinion in Virology, October 2021
https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S1879625721000973?token=37910ED204DE3D7F493DA5A6F47D5D1C013231E32D034D9BCDD8F7556778EAEC11D07A564998607A4BA279ACAF4FD947&originRegion=us-east-1&originCreation=20211030164337
Your persistent challenge to “show me the mechanism” has actually stimulated me to do further reading and study about COVID19. Here is a recent article about the S protein.
The complexity of the biology at the molecular level is “mind boggling”, but interesting nevertheless.
My undergraduate degree is a BS in Engineering. So, believe it or not, I have great interest in pure science and “mechanisms of action”, etc.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThe structure of the spike protein has been known for some time. It is also known that the structure of the spike protein used in the mRNA vaccines has been modified so that it is limited to its “prefusion” conformation by two proline mutations. This limits its biological activity since it cannot take on the fusion conformation or shape that it adopts naturally when it binds to the ACE2 receptors. So that should cut down even more on the ability of the spike protein produced by the mRNA vaccines to produce adverse biological activity in the human body (Derek Lowe, May 4, 2021).
So, again, by what mechanism do you suggest that the vaccine, where the vast majority of the spike proteins produce remain local at the site of injection, could, even theoretically, produce more harm to the body as compared to an infection by the live COVID-19 virus that replicates itself in large numbers throughout the entire body?
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentFurther reading has revealed to me that there are protein based COVID19 vaccines coming.
Do you know if any of these are available for general use?
I would not hesitate to have one of these myself.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentYes, Novavax should be available by early 2022 (Link). However, there is no fundamental difference regarding the antigen being used here. Novavax is also based on the COVID-19 spike protein (produced by moth cells) combined with an adjuvant (soapbark tree extract).
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.chemistryworld.com/news/protein-based-covid-19-vaccines-could-overshadow-rivals/4012450.article
I have been reading some the articles by Dr Peter Hotez at Baylor and have found them helpful and educational.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentIf some people are more comfortable with Novavax (a more standard protein-based vaccine) that’s great! However, truly, the Novavax vaccine works the very same way that the mRNA vaccines work. They are all based on presenting the COVID-19 spike protein to the human immune system. There just is no fundamental difference here.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm
Open AccessArticle
SARS–CoV–2 Spike Impairs DNA Damage Repair and Inhibits V(D)J Recombination In Vitro
Viruses, October 13, 2021
Interesting article which may have implications for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
“The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines produce the full-length spike protein.”
(It’s going to be interesting to see if you post this. It is your website, so I understand how things work.)
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThis was an in vitro study published in an “Open Access” journal that is not peer-reviewed. When open access papers (aka Pay to Publish) just aren’t as reliable and often present basic mistakes and less than credible theories. That’s what seems to have happened here in this paper.
In real life, the modified spike proteins produced by the vaccines are limited to the surfaces of postmitotic muscle cells. They are then taken up by macrophages and are broken down before fragmented antigen pieces of the spike protein are presented to T- and B-cells to educate the adaptive immune system. The authors themselves, in this paper you cite, note that the SARS-CoV-2 virus is not known to infect B- or T-cells – and neither does the lone spike protein produced by the mRNA vaccines. That’s just not what happens. Rather, in this in vitro study, the authors artificially transfected their study cells with plasmids that produced the proteins artificially inside their study cells. That’s just not what happens in real life when it comes to B- and T-cells. The suggested theory of the exosomal transfer of genetic material from a cell that is producing a spike protein via the vaccine, to T- or B-cells is a very very unlikely scenario when it comes to producing any significant real-life effect.
In comparison, any concern regarding this sort of mechanism would be far FAR more likely for an actual live SARS-CoV-2 infection…
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentYou state “This was an in vitro study published in an “Open Access” journal that is not peer-reviewed. When open access papers (aka Pay to Publish) just aren’t as reliable and often present basic mistakes and less than credible theories. That’s what seems to have happened here in this paper.”
From the article “Viruses is a peer-reviewed, open access journal of virology, published monthly online by MDPI. The American Society for Virology (ASV), the Spanish Society for Virology (SEV), the Canadian Society for Virology (CSV), the Italian Society for Virology (SIV-ISV), the Australasian Virology Society (AVS) and more societies are affiliated with Viruses and their members receive a discount on the article processing charges.”
Apparently Sean you are incorrect in saying this is not a peer reviewed article. I find it quite interesting that you, a pathologist in California, always seem to know more than, or disparage, researchers at other institutions, if they happen to disagree with you.
You also say “In real life, the modified spike proteins produced by the vaccines are limited to the surfaces of postmitotic muscle cells.” I am not sure this is accurate either. The mRNA (in the vaccine) enters muscle cells and is translated into the spike protein in the cytoplasm. So initially it is in the cytoplasm of the muscle cells.
See the article “mRNA vaccines for COVID-19: what, why and how”
International Journal of Biological Sciences, 4-10-2010
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8071766/pdf/ijbsv17p1446.pdf
“In real life, the modified spike proteins produced by the vaccines are limited to the surfaces of postmitotic muscle cells.” Also, do you have a reference please for this statement?
.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentYou’re talking about a mechanism here where the spike protein somehow harms the abilities of T- and B-cells, resulting in reduced adaptive immunity. The problem here is that the proposed mechanism to do this is very very unlikely to significantly affect T- or B-cells. The spike protein coded by the mRNA vaccines is produced within muscle cells, not T- or B-cells. The spike protein is then expressed on the surface of these muscles cells before being taken up by antigen-presenting cells and broken down into antigens that are then presented to T- and B-cells. Again, as already mentioned, The authors themselves, in this paper you cite, note that the SARS-CoV-2 virus is not known to infect B- or T-cells – and neither does the lone spike protein produced by the mRNA vaccines. That’s just not what happens. Rather, in this in vitro study, the authors artificially transfected their study cells with plasmids that produced the proteins artificially inside their study cells. That’s just not what happens in real life when it comes to B- and T-cells. The suggested theory of the exosomal transfer of genetic material from a cell that is producing a spike protein via the vaccine, to T- or B-cells is a very very unlikely scenario when it comes to producing any significant real-life effect.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentYou still have not adressed this issue:
************
You state “This was an in vitro study published in an “Open Access” journal that is not peer-reviewed. When open access papers (aka Pay to Publish) just aren’t as reliable and often present basic mistakes and less than credible theories. That’s what seems to have happened here in this paper.”
From the article “Viruses is a peer-reviewed, open access journal of virology, published monthly online by MDPI. The American Society for Virology (ASV), the Spanish Society for Virology (SEV), the Canadian Society for Virology (CSV), the Italian Society for Virology (SIV-ISV), the Australasian Virology Society (AVS) and more societies are affiliated with Viruses and their members receive a discount on the article processing charges.”
Apparently Sean you are incorrect in saying this is not a peer reviewed article. I find it quite interesting that you, a pathologist in California, always seem to know more than, or disparage, researchers at other institutions, if they happen to disagree with you.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThere’s “peer review” and then there’s peer review.
In July 2021, an article titled “Journal citation reports and the definition of a predatory journal: The case of the Multidisciplinary Digital Publishing Institute (MDPI)” was published in the academic journal Research Evaluation, written by María Ángeles Oviedo-García. Oviedo-García argued that MDPI used self-citation practices known as “citation cartels” to increase the apparent Impact Factor of MDPI journals, and that MDPI journals bear a number of hallmarks of predatory publishing. MDPI also released a public comment on the article on August 19th, 2021, claiming the article was predicated on the notion that MDPI was a predatory publisher, and that the article misrepresents MDPI business practice. In that comment, MDPI did confirm that its journals had some of the highest self-citation rates amongst academic publishers. The article in Research Evaluation later received an editorial “Expression of Concern,” and as of November 25th 2021, an investigation is ongoing.
Regardless of all of this, the main point that the authors of this paper make is not substantiated by their research. T-cells and B-cells simply are not affected by the mRNA vaccines to any significant degree. So, their arguments really are mute here. That’s the bottom line. You still have no mechanism behind your claims that the mRNA vaccines are more dangerous than they are beneficial or more risky than getting a live COVID-19 infection.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentAlso no reply to this request. I can’t find this in any recent articles.
*********
“In real life, the modified spike proteins produced by the vaccines are limited to the surfaces of postmitotic muscle cells.” Also, do you have a reference please for this statement?
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThe spike protein that is produced by the mRNA vaccines has an anchoring portion, a “transmembrane domain” that keeps it embedded in the membrane of the muscle cell that produced it.
“The end product in host cells expressing these mRNA vaccines is a surface-exposed, membrane-anchored, glycosylated, and trimerized Spike protein resembling the 3-D structure of the native viral Spike protein, to the extent that it interacts with its cognate receptor, hACE2.” (Link)
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentVaccines
Open AccessReview
Antigen Presentation of mRNA-Based and Virus-Vectored SARS-CoV-2 Vaccines
“Antigen Presentation of mRNA-Based and Virus-Vectored SARS-CoV-2 Vaccines”
Interesting that you have a link to Vaccines, an MDPI journal Sean. Like you said, there is “peer review” and then there is peer review.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentI thought you’d appreciate it – given the irony of it. After all, this is just basic science here. The authors here are not claiming something novel that has no mechanistic basis. There are many other places where you can read up on the mechanism of how the spike proteins are presented on the surfaces of the muscles cells where they are produced (Link, Link, Link, Link).
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Comment“Regardless of all of this, the main point that the authors of this paper make is not substantiated by their research.”
I am going to email the contacting author and see if they can respond to your comments about their paper.
The point that concerned me the most was that they state the spike proteins enter the nucleus and interfere with DNA repair mechanisms. I would like to know if this can happen in the muscle cells at the site of injection.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThat would be concerning if it actually occurred, to any significant degree, in white blood cells – like T-cells and B-cells. However, contrary to the suggestion of the authors, this just isn’t the case and there is no reasonable mechanism whereby this might be the case.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Comment“I thought you’d appreciate it – given the irony of it. After all, this is just basic science here. The authors here are not claiming something novel that has no mechanistic basis. There are many other places where you can read up on the mechanism of how the spike proteins are presented on the surfaces of the muscles cells where they are produced (Link, Link, Link, Link).”
SARS–CoV–2 Spike Impairs DNA Damage Repair and Inhibits V(D)J Recombination In Vitro
Viruses, October 13, 2021
You continue to disparage and discount this paper. I have forwarded all of your comments to the corresponding authors and am patiently waiting for their reply.
This is pretty much a pattern of yours. You claim to be an expert on “mechanisms” and discount or disparage research that doesn’t agree precisely with your own “vaccinate everyone” beliefs.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentAgain, this paper doesn’t present an actual mechanism for harming the human immune system as already explained to you. Let me know what the authors say – if they ever respond.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8412105/
Thrombotic events and COVID-19 vaccines
https://www.healio.com/news/primary-care/20211101/although-rare-more-data-link-jj-covid19-shot-to-cerebral-venous-sinus-thrombosis?utm_source=selligent&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news&M_BT=1972152615592
Although ‘rare,’ more data link J&J COVID-19 shot to cerebral venous sinus thrombosis
More potential thromboembolic “adverse events” from covid vaccines.
“The benefits outweigh the risks.” Of course, they always do.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThis is old news. The J&J viral-vector vaccine has been linked to a real, although rare, increase in cerebral venous sinus thrombosis – particularly in younger women. That’s why, if the option is available, I’ve consistently said that the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer or Moderna) are to be preferred.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentJust because it is “old news” doesn’t make it any less disturbing.
This is something I would not have known if I had not been digging around myself.
And it is something that I am certainly going to tell my patients about. Especially females in this age group who are taking birth control pills.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThat’s why I tell young women to take the mRNA vaccines… since there is actually a choice here.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentDr.Helland — Sean is never wrong. Sean has slippery arguments. Sean is a block wall with a website. Also Sean devalues and degrades any threat to ego. Not a credible person with which to have a discussion. Sean’s way or the highway . . . so let Sean walk down his highway to learn. He does not learn from discussions. You sound like a caring man who is being played by a narcissist on his playground.
Jody(Quote)
View CommentOuch! 😉
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentSean, this article from the BMJ, authored by a double-vaccinated writer, is of interest: “Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial” at https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635
The whistleblower was a clinical trial auditor, with a 20-year career in research. Her concerns about the conducting of the Pfizer trials weren’t addressed, the article states. It explains how the FDA doesn’t handle oversight issues in a timely manner, and gives examples. And all that calls into question the integrity of the Pfizer clinical trial data.
I found “How Fauci Fooled America” at https://www.newsweek.com/how-fauci-fooled-america-opinion-1643839 by professors from Harvard and Stanford also of interest. The observations made good sense.
I’m glad you aren’t in favor of vaccine mandates.
Bob(Quote)
View CommentThis was a contract company (Ventavia), not Pfizer itself, accounting for 1000 of the 44000+ participants in the phase 3 trials. While the procedures were sloppy in this particular company, they do not appear to have significantly affected the overall integrity of the data.
Another reason I say this is because billions of people around the globe have now been fully vaccinated, giving researchers plenty of real-world data that clearly shows the safety and efficacy of the vaccines. The Pfizer Phase III trial involved 44,000 people. This is not to excuse the very real problems that happened at Ventavia. However, these problems do not appear to have substantially compromised the data that was and now is currently available.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Comment“While the procedures were sloppy in this particular company, they do not appear to have significantly affected the overall integrity of the data.”
How do we know? a) How do we know that no other contractors were as sloppy? b) How do we know that “the overall integrity of the data” wasn’t “significantly affected”?
“Another reason I say this is because billions of people around the globe have now been fully vaccinated, giving researchers plenty of real-world data that clearly shows the safety and efficacy of the vaccines.”
Then why use randomized double-blinded trials at all if safety and efficacy can be clearly shown by just doling the real thing out to everyone?
Understand my question? The “real-world data” isn’t coming from something that is randomized and double blinded, and thus can never speak to the question of safety and efficacy like a randomized double-blinded trial can.
Bob(Quote)
View CommentRandomized double-blinded placebo-controlled trials are very important for science. While it is unfortunate that some small portion of the data appears to have been tainted, there is no good evidence that this was a trend among other testing sites. Also, real-world data is important to science as well – especially when hundreds of millions of people are involved.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentThe Newsweek article is interesting. Tenured professors at Harvard medical school and Stanford University school of medicine. They make sense to me too.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_breakingnews/senior-nih-doctor-pushes-back-on-covid-19-vaccine-mandates_4095305.html?utm_source=News&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-2021-11-09-3&mktids=60b96f2d0dda8a740f2d1d9a248b15e0&est=DRF0nFRsq8y0H3SRs9sQiUaoZavCqSk7W4zdbSvpC83wmVbMXGKAxpLOkHyNlctSoO0%3D
Looks like some doctors at the NIH don’t agree with you Sean.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentI don’t think you understand my article. I specifically said that I’m not personally in favor of vaccine mandates for COVID-19 in particular since I think that there are far more effective means of promoting the vaccines and that mandates are more likely to be counterproductive in this regard. However, when citing “religious exemptions”, many are being inconsistent – which can also backfire in the future when it comes to religious issues of even more importance.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/cdc-admits-crushing-rights-of-naturally
CDC Admits Crushing Rights of Naturally Immune Without Proof They Transmit the Virus
After formal demand, the CDC concedes it does not have proof of a single instance of a naturally immune individual spreading the virus.
When all this plays out in courts and lawsuits across the land, things may get real interesting. Hopefully neither side will be able to bluff or shoot from the hip in court.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThe CDC’s research team found that “unvaccinated people with a prior infection within 3 to 6 months were about 5-1/2 times more likely to have laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated within 3 to 6 months with the Pfizer or Moderna shots. They found similar results when looking at the months that the Delta variant was the dominant strain of the coronavirus.” (Link)
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentMy personal observations certainly don’t correlate with this.
I have seen many so called “break through infections” in people that have had the Monderna vaccine. Some are mild “break through” infections, and some required hospitalization.
I can’t recall any hospital employees that I work with, or patients, who have had covid, and then got reinfected a second time. (I am talking about people that have had no previous vaccination.)
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentYeah, well, your personal experience isn’t everyone’s experience. I wish it were, but it doesn’t seem to be. The results of a recent CDC study suggest that COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are around five times more effective at preventing hospitalization than a previous infection. (Link)
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2108120
“Severity of SARS-CoV-2 Reinfections as Compared with Primary Infections”
“Yeah, well” this study from NEJM does correlate with my own experience.
250,000+ patients that had covid disease, and no vaccine
“Low rate of reinfection”
“No critical patients or deaths in those with reinfection”
Which makes me question the need for a vaccine in those that have had covid infection.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentI’m not sure what’s going on in Qatar, but COVID-19 reinfection rates are not that uncommon here in the States – and there have been a fair number of deaths following reinfection. Again, several friends of mine have been reinfected and symptomatic. A cousin of mine was reinfected three times.
While the rates are certainly much lower compared to those who have had no exposure to COVID-19 antigens (via infection or via vaccine), at around 1%, it still seems as though the vaccines offer at least comparable immunity without the risks associated with an actual COVID-19 infection. It’s not that I do appreciate the protective advantages of natural immunity. I’m very hopeful that natural immunity will substantially contribute to eventual herd immunity around the world. However, given the option, getting the vaccine is much better than taking a chance with a COVID-19 infection.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Comment“The findings in this report are subject to at least seven limitations.”
From the report itself.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThat’s true. So, the question is if these limitations are substantial enough to reasonably overcome the conclusions of the authors. The fact remains that your own personal experience doesn’t seem to be the same as those published in papers like this one where there are actual reinfections for those who have previously had COVID-19. Several friends of mine have been reinfected and a cousin of mine has been reinfected three times…
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_breakingnews/fda-asks-court-for-55-years-to-fully-release-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-data_4110761.html?utm_source=News&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-2021-11-18-1&mktids=ac18077764210e342f54a0002ebb98cd&est=9XZe3RAwN9F8os9BkyhaC9pF96mbieEOtKQo5IHzVj8iTItKFWjKJvx6jPbA92xlkfY%3D
FDA Asks Court for 55 Years to Fully Release Pfizer COVID-19 Vaccine Data
“The FOIA request for the data was made by a group of doctors and scientists, including a professor of epidemiology at Yale School of Public Health”
Nothing to see here.
Just move along. Move along. MOVE ALONG I SAID.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThe FDA really should do better here. (Link)
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bayer-executive-mrna-shots-are-gene-therapy-marketed-as-vaccines-to-gain-public-trust/
Interesting comment. Gene therapy vs a “vaccine”.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThe mRNA vaccines are not “gene therapy” in any meaninful sense of the term since they do not affect the genetics of a person and the end result functions exactly as traditional vaccines function – via the presentation of protein antigens to the adaptive immune system to educate it against future infections.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentIDK.
Stefan Oelrich, president of Bayer’s Pharmaceuticals Division, seems to disagree with you.
You ALWAYS disagree with ANYTHING that doesn’t agree with your views.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentDon’t you also disagree, by definition, with anything that doesn’t agree with your views? Come on now. If I agreed, then there would be no disagreement. The real question is, who has the greater weight of evidence? Again, where is your evidence? Where is your mechanism that makes any sense?
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Comment“Bayer has responded noting that Stefan Oelrich was only talking about future applications of mRNA technology –”
Do you have a reference for this response from Bayer? When I google it nothing comes up.
(I guess it could also depend on how you define gene therapy. The DNA of a vaccine recipient may not get altered. But you are still using a modified viral gene mRNA. I wish there were more folks on this site to chime in and help clarify things. I don’t pretend to be a microbiologist, ID specialist, or molecular geneticist, etc.)
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentIf the DNA of a person does not get altered by the mRNA vaccines, then, by definition, these vaccines are not “gene therapy”. This is what was noted by Bayer itself in their response to the comments of Oelrich:
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Comment“Stefan Oelrich, president of Bayer’s Pharmaceuticals Division, made these comments at this year’s World Health Summit, which took place in Berlin from October 24-26 and hosted 6,000 people from 120 countries. Oelrich told his fellow international “experts” from academia, politics, and the private sector that the novel mRNA COVID “vaccines” are actually “cell and gene therapy” that would have otherwise been rejected by the public if not for a “pandemic” and favorable marketing.”
I think this could be debated. You are injecting a synthetic modified mRNA molecule, which contains the viral genetic information for the spike protein. You certainly are using viral genetic information. But of course the president of Bayer’s Pharmaceuticals Division has no idea what he is talking about.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentCome on now. The “viral genetic information” that is being used is limited to the production of the spike protein. That’s it. The mRNA sequence itself does not alter the DNA of a person – their actual genetic code. This vaccine is therefore NOT “gene therapy”. That claim is just nonsense in any meaningful sense of the term. And Stefan Oelrich never intended to suggest otherwise. He was only talking about future applications of the mRNA technology. He never claimed that the mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 function as gene-altering devices.
Bayer has responded noting that Stefan Oelrich was only talking about future applications of mRNA technology – not that the current mRNA vaccines alter the genetics of a person – which clearly doesn’t happen. The suggestion has been made that he misspoke regarding terms that he used, but that he never intended to suggest that the current mRNA-based vaccines modify the DNA of a person.
In any case, if you think otherwise, by all means, do share the mechanism by which this is likely to happen to any significant degree…
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985.pdf
“A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence”.
This is a rather interesting article from Nature 2015. It needs careful reading.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThat’s why it’s good to stay away from bats…
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.modernatx.com/ecosystem/strategic-collaborators/mrna-strategic-collaborators-government-organizations
DARPA – Advancing mRNA therapies and vaccines for biodefense
Moderna has been working with DARPA since 2013 on mRNA vaccines
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentAgain, biodefense efforts are nothing new for any government around the world.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/dire-warning-the-2a-is-the-only-one-we-have-left/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20211126_FridayDigest_358&utm_campaign=/digest/dire-warning-the-2a-is-the-only-one-we-have-left/
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Explains Gates and Fauci’s War on Freedom, ‘The 2A is the Only One We Have Left…’
Pretty interesting.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentRFK Jr? Come on. Regardless of the mistakes Fauci has made, and there have been a few, they are nothing compared to the misinformation and conspiratorial nonsense that is constantly spewing from RFK Jr. I’m sorry, but he has no credibility. He’s a true nutcase conspiracy theoriest.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentFortunately it is still a free country with a free press and freedom of thought.
People can listen to him and read his book and decide for themselves.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentExactly…
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab465/6279075
Circulating Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) Vaccine Antigen Detected in the Plasma of mRNA-1273 Vaccine Recipients
“Here we provide evidence that circulating SARS-CoV-2 proteins are present in the plasma of participants vaccinated with the mRNA-1273 vaccine.”
Interesting. The vaccine antigen is detected in the plasma of Moderna vaccine recipients. Doesn’t fit with your “basic science” statement that it is only found on the surface of the muscle cells.
The ongoing research into covid and the vaccines is voluminous.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentCome on now. The antigens were detected in very small amounts due to the “ultralow detection limits of the Simoa assays” that were used. Just because very small amounts of spike protein antigens end up in the plasma does not discount the “basic science” that the spike protein produced by the vaccines does in fact anchor itself, generally speaking, to the surfaces of the cells that produce it following vaccination.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Comment“Come on now.” I think you are missing the point.
You love mechanisms and “mechanisms of action”. What is the “mechanism of action” that causes increased thromboembolic events, myocarditis, etc, in covid patients and vaccinated patients? There is some evidence that these pathologic changes and “adverse events” are related to the spike protein in the plasma.
I know, I know. I already know what your reply is going to be. The risk of the vaccine is less than the disease.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThat’s right. The risk from the vaccines is far far less than the disease. I’ve never said that the mRNA vaccines are entirely risk free. There are always risks. It is just that these risks are truly minimal compared to an actual COVID-19 infection. It’s all about weighing relative risks vs. benefits.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm
Open AccessArticle
SARS–CoV–2 Spike Impairs DNA Damage Repair and Inhibits V(D)J Recombination In Vitro
Viruses, October 13, 2021
I have forwarded all your comments to the corresponding authors, and am patiently waiting for a reply.
(If you seriously think these viral researchers are incorrect, it seems like you would have a duty to publish a public response or rebuttal to their paper in a peer reviewed journal. Send me a copy of this, if you ever do.)
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View Commenthttps://www.theepochtimes.com/denial-of-natural-immunity-in-cms-vaccine-mandate-unprecedented-in-modern-history-scott-atlas_4214051.html?utm_source=mr_recommendation&utm_medium=left_sticky
The majority of the nurses and other employees at the small hospital that I work at have already had covid.
Should they be “forced” to have the covid vaccine or lose their job?
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentNaturally-acquired immunity that is gained from surviving a previous COVID-19 infection has been shown to be protective to a similar if not greater degree compared to vaccine-derived immunity – and therefore should count as having adequate immunity without having to get vaccinated.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentIntracellular Reverse Transcription of Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 In Vitro in Human Liver Cell Line
https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73/htm?s=09
Something I brought up in one of my first comments here. The research goes on.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentYeah, and just like before, this is an “in vitro” study. It doesn’t reflect any real problem in real life… for the reasons previously explained to you.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentOnce again, you try to disparage research done by others. “It doesn’t reflect any real problem in real life…”
(I’m actually beginning to question how rational your motives and thinking are.)
Time will tell if you are right about this.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentWhat I’m saying is that this research isn’t relevant to real life when it comes to the actual risk of the mRNA vaccines turning themselves into DNA and then integrating themselves into the human genome. That simply isn’t a valid concern for several rather obvious reasons.
First off, you have to understand how this research was done. They took hepatic cancer cells, not normal human cells, and exposed these highly atypical mutated cells to large amounts of Pfizer’s mRNA vaccine in vitro. Then, they detected that the mRNA sequences had been decoded and that spike proteins were being produced – as expected. No surprise here. Then, they demonstrated that some DNA copies had been made of the mRNA via the reverse transcriptase in the cancer cells – knowing that cancer cells often produced increased quantities of reverse transcriptase. That’s it. That’s all that they demonstrated. But how is this relevant to real life? – to any kind of real risk for the mRNA vaccines? I’m not making this up. What the authors did was to deliberately set up an experiment with a highly mutated cancer cell line that they knew, ahead of time, would produce an outcome that doesn’t reflect what happens in real life with normal human tissues.
Note that “Huh7 cells” specifically show “changes in gene expression of long interspersed nuclear element-1 (LINE-1)” – which is an endogenous reverse transcriptase. LINE-1 retrotransposons are necessarily active during embryogenesis are aberrantly active in tumorigenesis. cancer cell genomes substantially overexpress L1 (Link). L1 expression is directly related to the cell’s DNA damage response (Link). L1 levels are even being proposed as a biomarker to cancer screening (Link).
This is why these authors used these particular hepatic tumor cells. However, that is not enough, as reverse transcriptase does not integrate the DNA strands thus produced into the human genome. A second enzyme is needed – an integrase. Integrases insert the double-stranded DNA produced by reverse transcriptase into the host’s chromosomal DNA. And, this particular step was not demonstrated in this study since the required integrase enzyme wasn’t shown to be produced by these hepatic cancer cells (since integrase is produced by retroviruses, not human cells).
Clearly, then, what the authors of this paper did not demonstrate is that there is a real risk of any kind for actual humans in real life. In short, there is no significant risk of getting the mRNA vaccines to alter the human genome – given that the mRNA vaccines are injected into the deltoid muscle and locally taken up by these muscle cells, not cancer cells. These muscle cells, unlike the hepatocellular cancer cells, have no significant levels of reverse transcriptase or integrase production.
This is basically the same thing as with the last article you cited with concerns over the mRNA vaccines altering the human genome. Such concerns simply aren’t based on the weight of reasonable scientific evidence, which is abundant.
See also the interesting commentary about this by David H. Gorski, MD, PhD: Link
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentHere is a copy of the email I sent the corresponding author of this paper. If I get a response I will certainly forward it to you.
Hello Dr De Marinis
I am a family physician in Culbertson Montana, USA. I read with interest your paper, “Intracellular Reverse Transcription of Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 In Vitro in Human Liver Cell Line”.
I have had several reservations about the COVID19 mRNA vaccines since they were first introduced.
I had known previously that human pseudogenes were associated with the LINE-1 mechanism.
I have had an ongoing discussion with another physician (who is a pathologist) here in the USA who is very pro mRNA vaccine. I sent him your paper, and here was his statement in response:
“Yeah, and just like before, this is an “in vitro” study. It doesn’t reflect any real problem in real life… for the reasons previously explained to you.”
I would appreciate your comments and feedback about his statement. I would certainly think that the findings in your paper would potentially have some relevance to “real problems in real life”. (This physician tends to discount and disparage “in vitro” studies in general.)
This physician has his own public website called “Educate Truth”.
His name is Dr Sean Pitman. You can read his comment for yourself in the reply section of the article “Mandates vs. Religious Exemptions”.
I would very much appreciate your feedback. Thank you for your time.
Best regards,
Don E. Helland MD
Culbertson Montana USA
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentHere’s another explanation for you that seems pretty good:
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentInteresting links. This was a good discussion by Dr Gorski.
Personally, I am not “anti vaccine” or “pro vaccine”. I’m simply have some concerns (rightfully so I believe) and am looking for the scientific evidence and truth. I don’t like to discount or disparage scientific research papers just because they don’t agree with, or challenge, my biases, whatever those biases might be. This is what genuine scientific peer review is for.
Time will tell more as research continues on.
I finally got covid myself about 4 weeks ago. (I was not vaccinated.) I spent about one week in bed with flu like symptoms. Back to normal now thankfully.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentI’m sorry you got sick, but am glad that you’re doing Ok now and that you’re not experiencing long-term symptoms.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Commenthttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32042317/
Re-recognition of pseudogenes: From molecular to clinical applications
Another article from the peer reviewed scientific literature. (Not blog sites or personal websites.)
The fact remains that there are 8000 or more processesed pseudogenes in the human genome. These were mRNA transcripts that got back into the genome by retrotransposition.
[52] (Figure 1B). “A processed pseudogene is different
from the above two types because its main
mechanism of formation is the retrotransposon of
mRNA transcripts.”
Also, LINE1 elements do have a mechanism for integrating reverse transcribed mRNA into DNA. This also is “basic science”.
I am patiently waiting for these articles about mRNA vaccines to be discussed and debated in the peer reviewed scientific literature. (Not blog sites and personal websites.)
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentRetrotransposition mechanisms have long been known, but they aren’t a problem for normal non-cancerous cells in the human body. I’m really not sure what more you need discussed when the paper that you’ve presented is based on cancerous cell line? – known to produce higher levels of reverse transcription, but without the integrase enzyme. Either way, how does this make exposing one’s body to a natural COVID-19 infection any better? I mean, I’m glad that you survived your infection, but it would have been better for your body, and far less risky for you, to simply get vaccinated.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentFrom the paper:
“…..Nevertheless, many challenges remain, including monitoring for long-term safety and efficacy of the vaccine. This warrants further evaluation and investigations. The safety profile of BNT162b2 is currently only available from short-term clinical studies. Less common adverse effects of BNT162b2 have been reported, including pericarditis, arrhythmia, deep-vein thrombosis, pulmonary embolism, myocardial infarction, intracranial hemorrhage, and thrombocytopenia [4,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20]. There are also studies that report adverse effects observed in other types of vaccines [21,22,23,24]. To better understand mechanisms underlying vaccine-related adverse effects, clinical investigations as well as cellular and molecular analyses are needed.”
To me this is simply scientific research into the safety of these mRNA vaccines. Nothing more, nothing less.
You and others, seem to try very hard to discount and disparage this type of research, simply because it doesn’t agree with your personal pro vaccine views. We all have the right to express our opinions and thoughts on blog sites and websites like yours. (And I’m not saying this is bad. I am here myself.) But the final answers will come from further scientific research and peer reviewed papers.
Lastly, your statement: “Retrotransposition mechanisms have long been known, but they aren’t a problem for normal non-cancerous cells in the human body.” I think you should reconsider this. There is voluminous research into retrotransposons and their effect on the human body and human genome, apart from cancer. Effects including: gene inactivation, changes in gene regulation. changes in gene products, processed pseudogene formation, etc. This is “basic science”.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentTell me, how often, in a normal human body, not a tumor or a bunch of cancer cells in a petri dish, does RNA to DNA reverse transcriptase followed by genomic integration happen? – outside of infection by a retrovirus (like HIV for example) that has both of the necessary enzymes? – both reverse transcriptase and integrase?
I’m sorry, but if what you’re suggesting were at all common, it would make normal life for a human being impossible. Also, it doesn’t make the vaccine any more risky than exposing one’s self to a COVID-19 infection – which is the main point here.
You write:
Oh please. Just because I don’t agree with everything published in scientific journals, especially open access journals that have a questionable history, doesn’t mean that I’m opposed to good scientific research. Of course vaccines have risks. However, these risks have been proven to be minimal compared to the known risks of getting infected by COVID-19. The claim that “The safety profile of BNT162b2 is currently only available from short-term clinical studies” is also false. There are few vaccines or medications in general that have been more studied or that have more empirical evidence in support than the mRNA-based vaccines. The mRNA technology has been around and has been studied now for more than 30 years. The spike protein itself has been carefully modified to avoid known risks like antibody-dependent enhancement. And, the vaccine has now been given to hundreds of millions of people over an extended period of time with amazing clinical results and very high safety profile. The vast majority of those who have been getting very sick and dying in the ICUs around the world since the mRNA vaccines came out have not been those who are unvaccinated. The all-cause death rate is actually lower for those who are vaccinated as compared to those who are not.
Please, those like you who seem to demand absolute knowledge before you will accept advances in medical science end up ignoring the weight of evidence that has the potential to save many lives and reduce many needless long-term and permanent injuries. These mRNA vaccines are truly miraculous, gifts from God Himself that have dramatically reduced the suffering of those who have actually taken advantage of these gifts.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentWe are talking right past each other now.
It is obvious that your knowlege of retrotransposons is limited.
I certainly don’t demand absolute knowledge before accepting advances in medical science. That is rediculous.
I think that we are at the end of the road, at least for now, on this topic.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentI think everyone’s knowledge of retrotransposons is limited when it comes to how they might possibly pose any kind of real risk for the use of mRNA technology – for vaccines or any other use. If you think otherwise, by all means, do share with me how retrotransposons reasonably create such a risk? This paper from Sweden that you’ve most recently forwarded certainly does no such thing.
As far as what kind of “weight of evidence” it would take to change your mind about mRNA vaccines, you say that you don’t require “absolute knowledge”, but it certainly seems as though you’re raising the bar far far higher than is reasonable – to the point of preferring to get sick with a COVID-19 infection, putting yourself at a far higher risk of long-term injury and even death, rather than take an mRNA vaccine. Given the evidence that is currently in hand, I find that position to be rationally untenable – especially when it comes to trying to convince others to do the same thing during a time when those who are getting very sick and dying, still thousands every day, are almost all unvaccinated.
Now, I’m glad that you personally survived, but spreading misinformation like this has cost and is still costing many lives. I have a problem with that and I do not at all apologize for my strong recommendation that pretty much everyone who has access to the mRNA vaccines get vaccinated against COVID-19.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentPlease don’t accuse me of spreading misinformation. I tell other doctors, providers, and patients to look at ALL the research and data, the current CDC recommendations, etc. And then make up their own minds.
Those in certain risk groups I believe should get the covid vaccine, and I recommend this.
I think targeted vaccination is the best approach. Not vaccinate everyone that is alive and breathing. But again, I tell everyone to make up their own minds.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentWell, I’m glad you go at least this far… although I still think that the kinds of arguments you present here really do put people’s lives and health at increased risk. I know you don’t agree, but that’s how I see things from my own perspective.
Now, I’m fine with you, and those who think like you, having the ability to freely share your opinions – despite how mistaken and damaging I personally think these opinions may be. That’s just the nature of living in a free society – which I think is far more important than restricting the freedom of speech.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentJust in case you are wondering. I have been studying retroviruses and retrotransposons for years and years. But from a different angle. Evolutionists use these for phylogentic purposes to show common anscestry etc. As I am sure you are well aware, on the face of it, these seem to provide “rock solid” evidence for common anscestry of primates such as humans and chimpanzees, etc. This is a whole complex subject in itself.
Since I reject evolution and common anscestry for religious reasons, I have spent many years trying to come up with a creationist explanation for these findings. With limited success mind you. But I am still working on it.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentYes, I’ve been reviewing these particular evolutionary arguments for over 20 years myself: Link, Link
Again, however, when it comes to active retrotransposons in normal human cells, naturally, the expression of LINE sequences is repressed in most cell types. Its RNA is mainly heritable during early embryogenesis because of its enrichment and high retrotransposition activity in early embryos (Grow et al., 2015). That’s why the Swedish research team used a tumor cell line where LINE-1 sequences where more strongly expressed.
On the other hand, it does seem to be true that cells infected by live SARS-COV-2 viruses do show enhancement of expression of retrotransposons:
So, you see, if anything, infection by live SARS-COV-2 viruses puts a person at higher risk of cellular genetic modification compared to the mRNA vaccines. This only adds to the reasons to get vaccinated against COVID-19 rather than to gain “natural immunity” the hard way – i.e., via a live SARS-COV-2 infection. Yet again, the risks are simply far higher here for the natural infection vs. vaccination.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View Comment“Well, I’m glad you go at least this far… although I still think that the kinds of arguments you present here really do put people’s lives and health at increased risk. I know you don’t agree, but that’s how I see things from my own perspective.
Now, I’m fine with you, and those who think like you, having the ability to freely share your opinions – despite how mistaken and damaging I personally think these opinions may be. That’s just the nature of living in a free society – which I think is far more important than restricting the freedom of speech.”
I am growing very weary with this back and forth conversation. But you need to remember that you are talking to a primary care provider who works in a rural health clinic and hospital near an Indian reservation. I have been seeing covid patients (including high risk and nursing home patients) almost every single day that I work for the last 2 years. It is as routine as influenza or strep throat now. We have treatment protocols that the providers follow. All patients are offered the vaccine if they want it. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. (And no I am not there trying to talk them out of getting the vaccine, as you try to insinuate.)
To someone like myself who has been seeing and treating covid patients up close and in person for the last 2 years, your underlying tone sounds a little weird to be perfectly honest. You are very dramatic about “putting people’s lives and health at increased risk” etc, etc, etc, etc. Almost a little paranoid or something. I don’t know. Like I said, to someone like myself, you sound a little weird and overly dramatic.
And no I’m not trying to minimize covid. I have seen people die of covid, especially in the nursing home. But people die on a regular basis in a nursing home, as you already know. And all our nursing home patients are now vaccinated as per CDC protocol, etc, etc, etc.
I don’t know. I wound suggest that you actually talk to a primary care provider that sees covid patients on a daily basis.
I’m sure this wont change your thinking or attitude one iota. But I’m just saying, this is the way that you come across to someone like myself.
The discussions that I have on blogs like this are my personal thoughts and concerns. They don’t reflect the way that I actually practice primary care medicine on a daily basis.
This is my last comment here. Like I said, I am growing extremely weary of this conversation. Feel free to respond and have the last word. It’s your website.
(For what it’s worth, I do appreciate all the good work that you have done in the creation/science/evolution area over the years. And I would encourage you to continue this.)
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentThe difference between us is that I see people in the ICU, as does my brother-in-law Dr. Roger Seheult (a pulmonologist in S. Cal.). You might see the occasional person die from COVID-19, but those who work ICUs in larger medical centers see far too many people die from COVID-19 – to include young people (not just those in nursing homes). You might offer the vaccine to those whom you see, but if you present arguments to them like the ones you’ve presented here, such advice most certainly does result in increased injuries and even death. For me, that’s a big deal. You might call it “weird and overly dramatic” if you want, but for me the effort to save lives and reduce injuries is neither “weird” nor “overly dramatic”. I mean, that’s why I do what I do…
Now, you say, “The discussions that I have on blogs like this are my personal thoughts and concerns. They don’t reflect the way that I actually practice primary care medicine on a daily basis.”
That would be great if this were a private conversation, but it isn’t. It is a public conversation and your words have an impact on the hundreds who read this blog every day. I mean, in a very real sense, especially given that you include your title “MD” with your name, and often point out that you are a medical doctor when you post to this blog, you are, in fact, practicing medicine when you post public comments like you do. You cannot simply say, “I don’t actually follow my own advice that I post in blogs when I practice primary care medicine on a daily basis.” Your influence simply isn’t limited to what you do face-to-face with patients in your clinic. Your influence also extends to what you say and do in front of people outside of your daily medical practice.
Sean Pitman(Quote)
View CommentAs usual, you misunderstand and misconstrue what I am saying. You are incredibly good at twisting things around.
I send patients to ICU all the time, and get follow up on a daily basis.
I don’t present arguments like the ones presented here to patients. This is a blog site. They can look at any blog site they choose. In reality I talk to patients very little about vaccines. The nurses do most of the vaccine education etc. My job is to diagnose and treat. If a patient asks me about the vaccine, I tell them to look at all the science and data, current CDC recommendations, etc. And then make up their own minds. So please stop trying to pin “increased injuries and death” on me. I resent this very much.
I am not saying “I don’t actually follow my own advice that I post in blogs when I practice primary care medicine on a daily basis.” That’s not what I am saying at all. That is you twisting things around.
Now your point about this being a public conversation is understood. But it is still just a blog site.
The majority of what I have said and done here is point out papers that have been published in the peer reviewed scientific literature, and are available to the public. People can read these and make up their own minds. Nowhere have I specifically recommended that people get, or not get, the covid vaccine.
This has become a wearisome distasteful expericence. Which is why I spend very little time on blog sites in general.
Don Helland MD(Quote)
View CommentI’m just saying is that if you think that what you say on blog sites like this one doesn’t really affect people, especially when you present yourself as an MD, you’re mistaken. I know that people have been influenced against taking the mRNA vaccines by what you’ve said here in this forum. You’re not simply being neutral in what you’ve posted. You do, in fact, come across as being opposed to the mRNA vaccines – also noting that you didn’t get vaccinated yourself and chose to get infected by the live COVID-19 virus without pre-established vaccine-based immunity. You’ve also come across as being strongly against any response by me to the articles that you’ve referenced where I point out how these papers really do not actually undermine the efficacy and/or the relative safety of the mRNA vaccines. Clearly, you don’t come across as being neutral on the topic.
And, such comments have an effect on people – they really do. While that upsets me, again, it’s more important to me to allow for those who disagree with me to also post their comments rather than to only allow what I personally think is true to be posted.
Beyond this, no one is twisting your arm to post our comments here. You can post or not post as you wish. That’s entirely up to you. But, don’t expect that I won’t push back when you post comments that I think will increase the risk of those who read what you have to say…
Sean Pitman(Quote)
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