Creationist students find little support from LSU

By Educate Truth Staff

Christopher Olmo, Nayeli Lemus, and Carlos Cerna, former students of La Sierra University, spoke recently with Educate Truth about their experiences with LSU biology professors. During their talk with Educate Truth they related one experience that occurred after a Breakout Worship on LSU campus in 2009.

“Sean Pitman came to school a week before breakout, showing evidence for creation. The biology department was always saying there’s no evidence for creation. Lee Greer would say things like, ‘There’s more evidence coming out everyday to support evolution’ or ‘there’s no evidence for creation,'” Olmo said.

Feb. 26, 2009, LSU students Louie Bishop, Cerna, Olmo, and Lemus attended one of these Breakout Worships led by Lee Greer, a self-professed evolutionary biologist.

Olmo said the talk was specifically focused on “debunking” Sean Pitman’s presentation, which had just occurred the previous Friday. According to Olmo, Greer and some other biology professors were present at Pitman’s presentation, but waited until the following week to rebut Pitman’s arguments, when he wasn’t there to defend his position.

Within the first half of Greer’s talk, Cerna remembered him saying, “[Sean Pitman] and people like him try to tell you, you can’t believe in the Bible and evolution. How dare they, how dare they, how dare they tell you that!”

There was supposed to be time for students to question Greer, but Olmo said Greer went over his time by about five minutes, so students were leaving and the next class coming in when they were finally able to ask questions.

Cerna said he was the first to ask a question, “Basically, my question was ‘if scientists have been wrong so many times throughout the past, could it be possible that scientists are wrong about evolution?’ I gave two or three examples of things that have changed over time. This is when Lee Grismer jumped into the conversation. You could tell he was already upset with what I was saying. He said, ‘Ya, ya, that is true! We could be wrong, but we’re going off of what we know now. All the evidence is pointing to billions of years.'”

Grismer’s tone escalated into what Olmo and Lemus described as yelling. According to Cerna, it was Bishop that really got Grismer riled up. Bishop quoted Matthew 19:4 to Greer, asking how he reconciled what the Bible said about human origins with evolution. According to Olmo and Lemus, Grismer said, “You’re stupid and ignorant. You don’t know enough to say anything. Your kind of thinking drives planes into buildings.”

Olmo said, “I should feel comfortable at an SDA school using Scripture to support science. But they were making it seem like we couldn’t use the Bible. I felt betrayed, because I couldn’t even ask a question without being called ignorant.”

According to Lemus and Olmo, they felt the professors were attempting to paint them as anti-science. They even received questions after the incident from other students asking why they were against science. Olmo told the students he does believe in science, just not evolution.

“How are you supposed to learn in that kind of environment?” Olmo said.

According to these creationist students, the professors separate religion and science. Olmo said one professor said, “If you have a problem with the science, go to the religion department and they’ll straighten you out.” Olmo said the religion and science department are in agreement, and that if the science department is bad, the religion department is worse. Lemus said professor Wonil Kim in the religion department teaches that God is female and the Bible is not God’s Word. As a new convert to Adventism from Catholicism, Lemus said this type of theology at an Adventist university really disturbed her.

Lemus and Olmo said they did find a couple professors who gave them hope. They would often talk to these professors, trying to work through the problems they were encountering with the biology professors. Olmo and Lemus said these two professors said, “There is nothing we can do about it. We’ll just have to play their game.”

When asked why more students were not speaking up about this, Olmo said, “Because the professors make them look stupid. The students aren’t grounded in their faith. Favoritism. You look better if you agree with the professor. Professors are considered to be an authority. They went to school all these years, so I’m sure they know more than you.”

Cerna said there is a fear amongst some students they won’t be able to get good letters of recommendation from these professors. While the professors have not made any such threats, the fear is very real for some students. No one knows better about LSU’s scare tactics than Bishop, who has been put on student probation and has been pressured socially and academically by administration for making public what LSU professors have been promoting.

When asked to write about her experience at LSU, one former student told Educate Truth in August 2009 that she didn’t want her name published. “I might have to write it anonymously though as I worked for most of the professors for the biology department and my boss at —- —-* is really close friends with ———* and friends with most of the biology professors there,” she said.

So students continue to play the game. However, it appears whenever a student decides not to play the game, a letter of censure is issued, registration is held for weeks, and all information that is related to classes in question is sequestered.

To date, La Sierra University has done absolutely nothing to address the concerns with the biology department. Even in public statements they consistently fail to give assurance that anything is being done or that the accusations are false. In a short meeting with Randal Wisbey in Nov. 2009, Shane Hilde offered to make any corrections or retract any false information that had been published. Wisbey did not ask for one correction in regard to what had been said about the biology department. His only complaint was that he felt he had been misquoted in an article Hilde had written.

The biology chair, James Wilson, said in the Recorder, “The La Sierra biology faculty have faith that God is their Creator and Sustainer.” Not once has the biology department or the LSU administration gone on record as endorsing a special creation that occurred in six days in the recent past.

Larry Becker cites the new General Biology Seminar (BIOL 111A) as a wonderful course to help freshman biology students navigate issues between faith and science. What are the facts about this new one-unit course? Here is a list of the professors and guest speakers that participated in the fall class of 2009, which was coordinated by Greer and Wilson: Warren Trenchard, Fritz Guy, Gary Bradley, Lee Grismer, Ben Clausen, John Webster, Warren Johns, and Lee Greer.

Greer, Grismer, and Bradley are all self-professed evolutionary biologists. Trenchard’s beliefs are unknown, though according to a source he never addressed or endorsed the church’s position in his one lecture on Sept. 22, 2009. Guy has rejected the church’s position. Webster, Dean of the School of Religion, does not endorse the church’s position. Johns teaches what is called Temple Theology. He believes the six-day creation is literal, but vast amounts of time transpired on earth before “creation” week. This leaves Clausen, who works for the Geoscience Research Institute. According to sources who are familiar with his beliefs, he does endorse the church’s position, but feels he cannot reconcile it with science. In other words, he is a weak advocate for creationism, if he doesn’t believe science and the Bible can be reconciled. In short, there is virtually no representation for creationism in that one-unit class.

There appears to be no support for creationist students at LSU, although there are a couple sympathetic professors, who are hushed into silence by “the game.” Creationist classes aren’t offered by the biology department. Any support a student might get from the religion department will depend on what professor they talk to, because not all believe the Bible is God’s Word, much less endorse Biblical creation. Creationist students have resorted to creating a creationist club, so they can invite outside speakers.

How ironic a Seventh-day Adventist university has failed to create an academic environment that is supportive of creationist students. Shame on the La Sierra administration for letting this happen to even one student.

*The student has not given permission to use the institution’s name, or the professor her boss knows.

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99 thoughts on “Creationist students find little support from LSU

  1. Makes one wonder why an additional freshman class, “an introduction to science/religion”, was needed as yet another platform for LSU professors to challenge the fundamental SDA doctrine on a literal creation week…

    Why should the SDA Church spend good money to support a school where any of the teachers, much less a significant majority of professors in any particular department, are openly deriding some of the most cherished pillars of the Adventist faith?

    No wonder there is such lack of transparency at LSU and a determined effort to keep what is really being taught from being clearly presented to parents, potential students, and the Church membership at large. No wonder LSU puts the feet of those like Louie Bishop and others who stand for Church doctrines and increased transparency at LSU to the fire. If LSU is so proud of its curriculum, why all of the efforts to sequester what is being presented in LSU science classrooms? – with threats, insults, and censure of students who wish more openness and support of SDA ideals at a “SDA school”? Why all the slick PR advertisements and campaigns that consistently dodge very direct questions as to what our young people are being taught as the gospel truth by their science professors?

    Don’t kid yourself. These professors are not simply teaching “about” the theory of evolution. They are actively promoting it as the obvious truth to their students. They are proselytizing for their own personal religion within our schools on the Church’s dime. It’s fine if they want to win converts to their personal views of reality. I’m all for that sort of thing. But, not on the Church’s dime. Taking money from any employer while doing contrary to what that employer is paying you to do, directly undermining the employer’s clearly stated goals and ideals, is robbery of that employer’s time and money. There’s simply no other word for it.

    At the very least we all have a right to know what we are all paying for in the training and education of our young people. Surely we deserve open and honest transparency from LSU – at the very least. Yet, as it currently stands, I have yet to see LSU openly admit to anything that is really taking place within its “science” classrooms… much less admit to any sort of actual error or shortfall on their own part regarding their lack of support for and decided undermining of the stated fundamental ideals of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  2. Sean is on target. What is needed is an apology by the LSU administration for not dealing with the teaching of evolution as fact on the university campus and then dealing with it. Nothing else is going to re-establish the faith of the Adventist community in the school and in the conference. Denying what has been going on, (there’s too much documentation of it), or putting students that uphold the Bible under censure is just making the situation worse.




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  3. Shane, are you sure about Warren Johns and “Temple Theology”?? You say that Johns “believes the six day creation is literal, but vast amounts of time transpired on earth before ‘creation’ week.” This sounds like some version of the “gap theory,” a very common device for trying to accommodate the Genesis narrative to long-ages geology.

    By contrast, “Temple Theology” is something promoted by Margaret Barker, that, frankly, sounds quite unorthodox. It would surprise me if an Adventist theologian became a disciple of Margaret Barker. But please understand, I’m not saying you’re wrong, and I have no information one way or another, I’m just suggesting that you double check.




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  4. I’ve heard him speak about this. I can’t say whether his temple theology is the same as Margaret Barker. I don’t know anything about her.

    Basically he was suggesting that the 7 day week in Genesis was a temple commemoration of God’s temple, the universe or whatever. It was all very strange. I had never heard anything like it before.

    So, he does believe Genesis is depicting 7 literal days, but he takes them completely out of context.




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  5. Re. Warren Johns, a name that always comes up in such discussions, as it just has above, there are two men with this name, holding significantly different views. Warren L johns believes devoutly in the lateral 6-day creation, and was an early champion of Creation on the web, long before this site and before Sean Pitman’s, personally funding several sites. The current one is http://www.genesisfile.com/. He has written and published two books on the Creationism and against Evo. Now in his 80s and retired to Tennessee, that Warren Johns is a lawyer and represented the General Conference for many decades. The other is Warren Harvey Johns, middle aged, variously a professor at Andrews and currently working in the LLU Heritage library, both a theologian and an MA in geology, a new sort of SDA “long chronology” academic, and coauthor of the now well known book on Adventism and Creationism, principal author Brian Bull. Be careful which Warren Johns you are talking about.




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  6. I would like to think that the OP for this thread – is something that the PUC board and Larry Blackmer take seriously. They should be asking themselves why they are just now finding out about it. Why did they not know at the start and put and end to such nonsense?

    Why allow the school even one more second to pursue legal action against whistle blowers?? Even the non-Christian world does not support such antics.

    We can do better.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  7. David Read says:
    April 7, 2010 Shane, are you sure about Warren Johns and “Temple Theology”?? You say that Johns “believes the six day creation is literal, but vast amounts of time transpired on earth before ‘creation’ week.” This sounds like some version of the “gap theory,” a very common device for trying to accommodate the Genesis narrative to long-ages geology.

    I have also heard Warren H. Johns explain his “temple” theory of creation. In short, he believes that living things existed and evolved on this planet, with Divine guidance of course, over hundreds of millions of years, until finally some pinnacle of progress was achieved. At this point, there was a “week of commemoration” to celebrate all the “creation” that had taken place over the previous eons of time.

    Johns also believes that the time periods mentioned in the Bible are largely symbolic, artificially divided up in the cyclic patterns of years that are divisable by 7 – i.e., 490 years, 70 years, 7 years, etc.

    In this way, while having a literal component of some sort, the biblical time periods and events mentioned are still largely symbolic in John’s understanding… not to be understood as they are seemingly represented by the authors or how the authors themselves understood them.

    Any way you look at it though, John’s ideas are directly opposed to the clearly stated SDA position on origins and the nature of the literal creation week. Yet he, along with almost all of the other speakers for the new LSU freshman introduction to science/religion class are asked to present their ideas that are known to undermine the Church’s stated fundamental doctrinal positions. No one has presented anything in direct support of the SDA version of a literal creation week in that freshman class or in any other of the science classrooms at LSU. How can they? How can a department that consists almost exclusively of theistic evolutionists present anything else, in a compelling manner, besides mainstream evolutionary doctrine with a theistic twist at the end to make it seem more palatable? How can anyone hope to suggest that theistic evolutionists can be counted on to “bring our young people home at the end of the day”? – home to the clearly stated fundamental SDA position on origins (as Pres. Jan Paulson put it)?

    Such a hope is more than wishful thinking…

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  8. The narrative above is a good example of what happens to those who don’t go along with “mainstream” ideas – in this case evolutionary science. An atmosphere of tyranny and oppression is created instead of congeniality and liberty of conscience! This is what is being fostered on the LSU campus – Sad to say, by my own brother-in-law. 🙁 Right, his title is “evolutionary biology professor”, what does that tell you? Is he really going to be concerned that students thoroughly understand Creationism?

    These professors don’t believe that Jesus is Divine or that the Bible is God’s Revelation to man. Anger was kindled in the one professor when a Bible text was quoted – no wonder! The Bible is not an authority to be consulted in matters of origins. The student is belittled and looked upon as stupid and one of a simple mind, unlearned! Tyranny and oppression! On the other hand, Christianity – belief in Jesus Christ as the Divine Son of God and His Word as His Revelation to man, having relevance in all aspects of life – fosters an atmosphere of liberty, justice and freedom!

    Blessings to all this preparation day for Sabbath!
    Carol Daul




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  9. This reminds me so much of the battles many of us were constrained to fight back in the early 1980s, when a number of our campuses were confronting the heresies of Desmond Ford. Professors and school administrators who dutifully mouth the term “academic freedom” use all sorts of intimdating tactics to hush their youthful (and not so youthful) criticis into silence. They accuse the church and its classic theology of “legalism” of “claiming to have all the truth,” yet as self-styled “intellectuals” they give every evidence of believing they are the ones with all the answers.

    It is like that bumper sticker I saw years ago: “People who think they know it all are very annoying to those of us who do.”

    What La Sierra needs is more godly students willing to stand up and brave the attacks from peers and professors, and to thus let the church know that its rising generation is prepared to reclaim its Biblical heritage and lead their church in a recovery of doctrinal and moral integrity. The GYC movement and its growing constellation of satellites is starting the shake the foundations in many places. May it happen at La Sierra and on every other Adventist campus, is my prayer!

    God bless!

    Pastor Kevin Paulson




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  10. Interesting. Why didn’t AToday publish any of the information in this article, in the interest of fair investigative reporting?

    AToday did have a piece on Sean’s presentation which came across to me as if it was skewed in favor of evolution, and so I wrote Erv Taylor expressing my concern about it, since he as the author.

    I do not recall ever reading before that the professors later had a meeting in which they tried to debunk Sean’s presentation, or that there were LSU students that agreed with Sean and didn’t agree with the professors. That doesn’t sound fair or right or Adventist of AToday to only report a pro-evolution perspective when there were students at LSU who oppose what is going on.




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  11. Dear Bob:

    What you’re stumbling onto is something that most so-called “progressive” Adventists have the hardest time acknowledging–that there actually are young people within the church (intelligent ones at that) who support fundamental Adventism. This is a major paradigm-shattering reality for them, and one they still haven’t fully programmed into their system. It is one reason the GYC movement has thrown many of them for a loop!

    Emotionaly at least, they can handle older church members who oppose so-called “progressive” ideas, even if they can’t refute these older ones with God’s Word. But they can console themsleves into believing these old die-hards are set in their ways and will live by them all their lives. But once the young, whom they seek so assiduously to indoctrinate, grow up and take over, the church will presumably change.

    Liberal Adventists have been trying this strategy for years. Some of it has succeeded, but far less than what they have desired, since most of the young they successfully indoctrinate end up leaving the church, rather than staying in and changing it from the inside. And the rise of a new, powerful movement of conservative young people totally freaks them out, as this means the struggle for the soul of Adventism is nowhere near over. Or if it is close to over, it will be settled in a manner they won’t at all like.

    May the Lord give strength to the striving faithful among the church’s rising generation, and cause their endeavors to speed on and triumph!

    God bless!

    Pastor Kevin Paulson




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  12. WHERE ARE OUR LEADERS IN ALL OF THIS MESS???

    Surely some of the “higher-ups” MUST have been aware that these things have been going on for years so why wasn’t something done about it when it first started–or at least shortly thereafter? Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop! It appears to me that we need a good “house-cleaning” starting at the very top and going all the way down!

    Where are the “…men who will not be bought or sold; men who in their inmost souls are true and honest; men who do not fear to call sin by its right name; men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole; men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall”?.–Education, p. 57. (1903)

    Where are these men who will not be “bought or sold” ??? Some honest ones are appearing now but, sadly, they do not seem to be among our leadership. That group (the leadership) seem to be the ones who are “strangely silent” in this great crisis. It is true the laity has been mostly silent also–but the laity has been very much in the dark about this until now–and some apparently still know virtually nothing about it (believe it or not a LOT of our people do NOT have COMPUTERS! –and when they do hear about it are surprised (and somewhat disbelieving) that this is really the case.

    My generation grew up being taught that our ministers and leaders were “God’s anointed” and should be respected and supported at all times. I’m sure this mind-set is still widely the case among Adventists–especially seniors. We simply have a very hard time dealing with the idea that “this ‘ain’t’ necessarily so”!

    But, thankfully, there are those among us who are willing to stand up and call sin by it’s right name and I, for one, am very grateful that I ran across this web-site. I sincerely hope this will be dealt with at the upcoming GC. I realize it is considered by some as “a North American problem” but from what I have read and heard this is not really the case. Apparently there are similar problems in other parts of our world church organization. Will someone please tell me WHY our leadership has been–and seems to still be–so slow to respond? (And are they really “responding” in a meaningful way even now? If so, I haven’t heard much to indicate it.) I did appreciate the Review editorial and give them a real “pat on the back” for it. But where are the GC, the Unions, and the Conferences in all of this? They, too, seem “strangely silent.”

    I sincerely hope this issue will be firmly met and dealt with at the upcoming GC in Atlanta.

    And PLEASE, Dear Delegates, DON’T JUST APPOINT ANOTHER COMMITTEE TO “STUDY THIS” UNLESS YOU GIVE THEM THE POWER TO TAKE WHATEVER SIGNIFICANT ACTIONS ARE NECESSARY TO CORRECT THE SITUATION. OTHERWISE THAT IS ONLY ANOTHER SMOKE SCREEN TO AVOID ANY REAL CHANGE)

    I have a distinct feeling that this issue may be at least the beginning of the “great shaking” Ellen White foresaw taking place before the “final movements” in the great conflict. (And we are told that the “final movements will be rapid ones.”) Surely we are approaching that time–and the greater part of those who now call themselves. SDA’s will leave and become our greatest enemies.. No one says it will be easy but we have the assurance that God will take care of His own. We need to earnestly pray that God will give each of us the faith and courage we will need in the fearful times ahead.




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  13. Lydian, I sympathize with your frustration at the leadership. There are a couple of factors which I think go a long way toward explaining their seeming fecklessness on this issue.

    First, church employees, including the paid clergy, are far more likely to hold unorthodox views than the average member in the pew, and hence to be in sympathy with LaSierra, or at least in sympathy with the need for a “diversity” of viewpoints on origins. I don’t think this is a big factor in the LaSierra situation, but it is a factor.

    Second, the leadership at the higher levels–conference and union officers–are all fairly adept politicians who are practiced at keeping the peace and keeping everything running quietly. They are more likely to see their role as putting out fires, tamping down controversy, rather than taking a strong stand on issues. We see in this in the women’s ordination issue, with the leadership just trying to keep the peace, rather than trying to reach a doctrinal consensus.

    In order to take on the situation at LaSierra, the leadership would have to be willing to alienate most of the faculty and the administration, as well as a significant liberal faction in the Southern and Southeastern California conferences. It goes without saying that alienating any sizable constituency goes against every fiber of a politician’s being. They’re naturally going to view the group calling attention to the problem with more suspicion than they do the LaSierra faculty. The LaSierra faculty is not asking them to do anything, not making their lives more complicated. We are.

    Moreover, LaSierra and its apologists constantly muddy the waters by claiming that they are just teaching “about” evolution, rather than evolution as truth. Since no one has a problem with teaching about evolution, this argument causes some real and justified hesitation. First, the leadership has to be convinced that LaSierra really is teaching evolution as truth, and not just “about” evolution, and then they have to summon the intestinal fortitude to take on the institutionally entrenched Darwinists. I’m not making excuses for the leadership, I’m just pointing out that we are asking for extraordinary leadership with a strong backbone, a strong will, and no fear of a fight. This kind of leadership is rare.




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  14. @David Read:

    I’ve suspected as much but hoped it wasn’t that way. As I stated earlier, I truly believe this issue may well bring on the “shaking time” that EGW says will come to the church just prior to Christ’s return. A church so divided on an issue as important as this must be “cleaned up” before Jesus can come and take His people home. We are heading for some really hard times–but we have been told they would come and we must be ready, with God’s help, to meet them.




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  15. @David Read: Just finished looking at the Erskine College issue and (I hate to say this David,) but it seems to me that their leaders have more “intestinal fortitude” that most of our leaders (hopefully, not all) appear to have. (I’m not going to win any “popular person” contest over this but I couldn’t care less! There is just too much at stake here to not take a stand.)




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  16. Thoughts to Ponder

    “The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the {superficial, conservative class}, {whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work}, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, {doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them.} This day is just before us. The members of the church will individually be tested and proved. They will be placed in circumstances where they will be forced to bear witness for the truth. Many will be called to speak before councils and in courts of justice, perhaps separately and alone. The experience which would have helped them in this emergency they have neglected to obtain, and their souls are burdened with remorse for wasted opportunities and neglected privileges.” Testimonies For the Church, Vol. 5, 463.

    Ellen White — Chapter IX. – Disguised Infidelity
    ‘I was then carried back to the creation and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created.” God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days. {3SG 90.1}

    “When God spake his law with an audible voice from Sinai, he introduced the Sabbath by saying, “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.” He then declares definitely what shall be done on the six days, and what shall not be done on the seventh. He then, in giving the reason for thus observing the week, points them back to his example on the first seven days of time. “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.” This reason appears beautiful and forcible when we understand the record of creation to mean literal days. The first six days of each week are given to man in which to labor, because God employed the same period of the first week in the work of creation. The seventh day God has reserved as a day of rest, in commemoration of his rest during the same period of time after he had performed the work of creation in six days. {3SG 90.2}

    “But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom. {3SG 91.1}

    “Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves of difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God’s rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God’s holy law. Some eagerly receive this position, for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. …{3SG 91.2}

    “Since His ascension Christ has carried forward His work on the earth by chosen ambassadors, through whom He speaks to the children of men and ministers to their needs. The great Head of the church superintends His work through the instrumentality of men ordained by God to act as His representatives.—AA 360.1

    “Christ’s ministers are the spiritual guardians of the people entrusted to their care. Their work has been likened to that of watchmen. In ancient times sentinels were often stationed on the walls of cities, where, from points of vantage, they could overlook important posts to be guarded, and give warning of the approach of an enemy. Upon their faithfulness depended the safety of all within.— AA 360.3

    “The church will rarely take a higher stand than is taken by her ministers. We need a converted ministry and a converted people. Shepherds who watch for souls as they that must give account will lead the flock on in paths of peace and holiness. Their success in this work will be in proportion to their own growth in grace and knowledge of the truth.—5T 227.3

    “It is seldom that a people rise higher than the minister.— RH, July 30, 1901 par. 6

    “We must have a converted ministry, and then we shall see the light of God and His power aiding all our efforts.—4T 402.1
    “At the eleventh hour the Lord will gather a company out of the world to serve Him. There will be a converted ministry. Those who have had privileges and opportunities to become intelligent in regard to the truth, and yet who continue to counter work the work God would have accomplished, will be purged out, for God accepts the service of no man whose interest is divided. He accepts the whole heart, or none.—20MR 320.1




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  17. Im sure many have thought it but has anyone said it?………all this evolution nonsense at LSU all these professors that are saying these things, all this smells like JESUIT INFILTRATION into the remnant church. If we read the Great Controversy and if we read the Jesuit oath and if we believe what the Spirit of Prophecy says about Rome being the right arm of satans power on earth then lets call this for what it really is…..JESUITS are in control of LSU….period. Its time to look up because our redemtion draws nigh




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  18. Lydian, there’s no question where Ellen White stood on this issue, and how strongly she felt about it. And to me, that is a large part of what is so troubling about the idea of a “Seventh-day Darwinian”: In order to get there, you have to have rejected the straightforward way of reading the Bible that Adventists have always accepted and you have to have rejected the prophetic authority of Ellen White. Seriously, what kind of Adventist is that?




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  19. The latest from Adventist Today
    Re: Educate Truth: Perhaps An Elaborate Spoof Turned Ugly?
    On April 10th, 2010 Nathan Schilt says:

    Wow! Thanks for the postings ProfessorNotKent. Having only briefly perused educatetruth on one occasion, I have to admit that I was not aware of the looniness which they apparently welcome in their club. At least it’s nice to know that they don’t hide who they are.

    You are taking a lot of people’s selected quotes from the general comments posted on Educate Truth that are not endorsed by Educate Truth. Regarding the treatment of Geanna in particular, why didn’t ProfNotKent post the comments from Shane or I? Shane specifically begged Geanna to reconsider who frustration with some of the difficult posters who frequent EdTruth noting that such represent a tiny fraction of the overall SDA Church. I also explained to Geanna that the debate over creationism within the SDA Church has nothing inherently to do with salvation. One doesn’t need to be a Seventh-day Adventist to be loved by God or to be saved. In fact, the vast majority of those saved will not have been SDAs – shocking I know.

    Also, as I’ve explained in previous attempted posts to this thread (all blocked by Atoday thus far even though this thread specifically addresses EdTruth and one would think they would want some sort of response published from EdTruth…) the claims of Larry Becker that EdTruth blocks posts in support of LSU are simply untrue. The only posts blocked are those that use swear words, are of excessive length, spam posts, and posts that have specifically been requested by the author to be removed.

    It is simply unfair to characterize the opinions of the management of EdTruth with those who frequent the blog maintained by Edtruth just as it would be unfair to characterize the opinions of Atoday by selectively quoting comments submitted on its discussion threads. To be honest I am personally appalled by many of the posted comments on EdTruth in supposed support of our efforts. Shane Hilde feels the same way. Yet, we allow freedom in posting comments with which we personally take strong exception for the same reason that Atoday usually allows the same range of postings with which it fundamentally disagrees…

    In short, I think you’d better withhold judgment on the position and efforts of EdTruth until you do a bit more of your own personal investigation instead of simply relying on the reports of those who are so passionately opposed to what we are really doing that they deliberately distort our efforts and present them in the most unfavorable and unrepresentative light possible.

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  20. From Advestist Today Blog
    On April 5th, 2010 nicsamojluk says:

    Erv,

    I wonder how long it took you to fish those extreme comments from the Educate Truth website. Did you find many other similar postings from readers? To they represent the views of either Shane Hilde or Sean Pitman, the main individuals behind the Educate Truth project?

    The short answer to that question is no, the comments posted by Erv and others do not represent my views or the views of Shane Hilde and do not reflect the position or goals of EdTruth.

    Also, as Erv very well knows, the goals of EdTruth have been very clear and simple from the very beginning – the production of increased transparency as to what is really being taught at LSU. Despite the suggestion of Erv and others that LSU is only teaching “about” the theory of evolution, Erv very well knows that this is a lie. The LSU science department is in full support of the truth of the modern mainstream evolutionary view on origins and is vigorously proselytizing for this philosophical position. This effort is in direct opposition to the stated fundamental ideals and goals of the SDA Church and is thus a robbery of the Church’s time and money by the LSU “science” professors.

    Reporting on this truth of this situation has always been the goal of EdTruth and Erv knows it…

    Also, Erv know that the accusation of Larry Becker that EdTruth blocks comments in support of LSU is untrue since Erv himself is a fairly regular poster to EdTruth’s blog pages and several extensive comments from Becker himself have been posted.

    The only comments blocked are the ones usually moderated by automation, like those that contain swear words, are of excessive length, spam, or those which the author has specifically requested to be removed…

    Sean Pitman

    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  21. I have had some of my own posts caught by the filter simply because they contained to many links *usually links to other comments on Educate Truth”.

    I can imagine how a pro-evolutionist coming to this site might “imagine” that someone deliberately omitted his/her post in such cases. But it would be best to verify it before going to AToday simply to engage in their ongoing smear campaign.

    It is interesting that “in theory” AToday markets itself as an open minded watch dog publication – yet it is soooo skewed that it feels obligated to “go after” Educate Truth – with a stack of half-truths and unreported scenarios when some of its own biases are questioned on a site such as this one.

    How transparent to the observer.

    How “instructive” to the unbiased objective reader.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  22. @Bob Pickle:

    Interesting. Why didn’t AToday publish any of the information in this article, in the interest of fair investigative reporting?

    AToday did have a piece on Sean’s presentation which came across to me as if it was skewed in favor of evolution, and so I wrote Erv Taylor expressing my concern about it, since he as the author.

    I do not recall ever reading before that the professors later had a meeting in which they tried to debunk Sean’s presentation, or that there were LSU students that agreed with Sean and didn’t agree with the professors. That doesn’t sound fair or right or Adventist of AToday to only report a pro-evolution perspective when there were students at LSU who oppose what is going on

    So just to recap –

    When the balancing facts are brought out – into the light of day – the all-for-evolutionism happy face that AToday painted is not “correct”??

    Kind of the way Obsorn’s pig’s tooth was supposedly “irrefutable” evidence of Nebraska man until he was fully exposed for using junk-science to make his case.

    Not unlike Enrst Haeckle’s comment when put on trial for his own fraudulent promotion of evolutionism ” I should feel utterly condemned and annihilated by the admission, were it not that hundreds of the best observers and biologists lie under the same charge” (Ernst Haeckle).

    When evolutionists begin storytelling – you have to wait for all the details to come into the full light of day if you are really interested in an accurate conclusion. The full light of day is the enemy of the methods, practices and doctrines found in evolutionism.

    No wonder atheist evolutionist Colin Patterson was so open about lamenting “stories easy enough to make up … but they are not science” regarding the methods of evolutionist who argue from the fossil record that one thing came from another.

    Yet – you dont’ find these full truths being allowed into the light of day at LSU. In fact when Bradley addresses the outright junk-science malpractice engaged in by Osborne in his public debate with William Jennings Bryan – he treats it with a dismissive “mistake quickly found by other evolutionists” statement in his lecture notes instead of the more insightful and highly instructive “junk-science methods used to prop up evolutionism in the public eye”.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  23. @David Read:

    Obviously not an “Adventist” at all, David. Our sacrificing, God-fearing, “Bible only” pioneers would be heart broken over this. Thankfully, “the dead know not anything”!!

    But where do WE go from here? Satan is not going to let go without a very fierce battle! Our leaders have apparently been asleep at the wheel for a long, long time. I’m sure there are some of them who are absolutely sick over this whole mess but have been helpless to do anything about it. I cannot imagine ALL of them being guilty.

    It brings to mind something that happened many years ago. We had a minister who was one of the most godly men I have ever known. When most of the ministers I knew drove new, fairly expensive shiny black cars (and I’m nor criticizing them for that) he drove an older one that was nice and neat–but it was obvious it wasn’t brand new. I asked him “why?” one day. He smiled and replied, “Sister, this car is still presentable and it still runs well. I drive it because I know first hand how many of our people–and those we are seeking to win–are struggling to even eat.” (Near the end of the Great Depression years.) “I cannot in good conscious drive an expensive, new car. By driving this I have a little money to help others.”

    However, he had two sons who were anything but self-sacrificing–and one was studying for the ministry! I asked him “why?” one day since he did not seem the least bit religious. He grinned and said, “Because if you play it right–that’s where the power is!” I notice he is now one of our influential ministers and up the chain of command quite a ways. Who knows how many of our leaders are where they are for this same reason? (Hopefully, he had a change of heart along the way–but who knows? However, it is not mine to judge him or anyone else–but we can plainly see that there must be a lot of “Achan’s” in the camp or we wouldn’t be in this mess.)

    Surely we are living in the very end of time! Prayer is our only real option. God is the only One who can take care of this situation–and He will, in His own good time. But we still have the responsibility to take what action we can to push back the tide of evil as best we can, for as long as we can. I have a great deal of admiration for those who have shown us what is going on and given us a platform on which to make our voices heard. I’m sure it hasn’t made their lives any easier–but who ever said that the Christian walk was going to be easy?




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  24. The comments about the other presenters seem fairly accurate to me. However, I am not sure that Warren (H.) Johns has been fairly characterized. Warren has written various articles in the past, it is true, that have argued for long-age positions. One of them made it into Understanding Genesis: Contemporary Adventist Perspectives.

    But Johns also presented Temple Theology in my Sabbath School, with the implication, as I understand it, that the presence of the elements of Creation in the Temple furniture supported the historicity of the Genesis account. His talks are recorded and may be watched at http://secondlookseminar.blip.tv/file/2562787 and http://secondlookseminar.blip.tv/file/2595952 . His views have been inconstant at times, but the last ones he expressed to me were conservative ones on this issue. It will be interesting to find out from (hopefully) himself and others exactly what views he expressed to the biology class in question, but condemnations of what he taught should be reserved for when we know exactly what he taught.




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  25. I say it is time for students to sue the college if they are not teaching SDA belief. That would get the attention needed. I know from my standpoint I am making sure that none of my money makes it that way. I do not want to support that kind of behaviour in any way.




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  26. If these professors can not toe the church line, they should be fired. Cut their paychecks and see how long they hang around. The end result of the church not doing the right thing will likely be a major major decline in enrollment and serious damage done to the school and the SDA Church. It will be very difficult for me to continue to return tithe to a church which will not do the right thing.




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  27. Academic Freedom doesn’t allow for gross betrayal. As in many cases, a simple case for and case against is just not forthcoming. Those capable of controlling content balance it in favor of their preferred view. For instance fairness is not available on ABC, or Fox News. Both view themselves as fair and balanced. I am fairly sure that Professor Greer probably feels that he is personally under attack, and that he is just pursuing “his understanding of truth” in a hostile atmosphere. Tragically like so many progressives, he attempts to respond to criticism by playing a role of the “honest professor” merely trying to deal with ignorance, and dark age thinking. He probably believes that he is fighting for truth, justice and the American way.

    It certainly isn’t the “Seventh-day Adventist Belief” that lies at the crux of the problem. Professor Greer does not believe in the Seventh-day Adventist Church’s positions on origins. He therefore has disqualified himself as a teacher for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Tragically he has the support of the University President and University Board and “The Adventist Review” all three of which have issued a plethora of double speak designed to calm the natives pour oil on the waters and basically attempt to take the focus off of the real problem in this situation. The problem is supposedly “Adventist” professors who have betrayed the parents, students and the church organization that pays their salaries. Teaching material that is not just different but patently contrary to Seventh-day Adventist beliefs. This is betrayal of the highest order.

    When confronted they take the path of derision and mockery. “According to Cerna, it was Bishop that really got Grismer riled up. Bishop quoted Matthew 19:4 to Greer, asking how he reconciled what the Bible said about human origins with evolution. According to Olmo and Lemus, Grismer said, “You’re stupid and ignorant. You don’t know enough to say anything. Your kind of thinking drives planes into buildings.”
    The Adventist Review tried to isolate the problem to a retired professor who occasionally taught at the University. What a Crock! Greer is no where near retirement, the Review has become complicit with the Administration in defending the un-defendable. I call on Professor Greer to be intellectually honest and resign as a teacher/professor in a Seventh-day Adventist College/University, and seek employment in a institution that advocates publicly his position.

    Grismer’s remark about Louie Bishop who has already graduated with a Bachelor’s degree in business from the University of California at Davis. Is typical of someone who’s personal academic skills fail him, and so he resorts to saying Mr. Bishop is ignorant or stupid Such a statement calls into question the objectivity of the one making such a derisive remark. It seems as if Mr. Grismer’s argument can’t stand scrutiny and inquiry so He resorts to intimidation, insult, and name calling. What an un-academic response.




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  28. Any wonder we have so many young people leave the SDA Church after attending our colleges if they are not grounded in truth! I am afraid of our institutions and what is happening to our youth! A change is needed and it is urgent that this happens, the sooner the better. I hope that at this next General Conference Session will deal with this issue. It is interesting that there are seven major verses in the Qur’an which speaks of a six day creation. Interesting that we as SDA’s have this in common. This is a big issue today.




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  29. My spell check was unnusually bad on names in that post — so I feel constrained to re-post… 😉

    @BobRyan:

    When the balancing facts are brought out – into the light of day – the all-for-evolutionism happy face that AToday painted is not “correct”??

    Kind of the way Osborn’s pig’s tooth argument was supposedly “irrefutable” evidence of Nebraska man until he was fully exposed for using junk-science to make his case.

    Not unlike Ernst Haeckle’s comment when put on trial for his own fraudulent promotion of evolutionism ” I should feel utterly condemned and annihilated by the admission, were it not that hundreds of the best observers and biologists lie under the same charge” (Ernst Haeckle).

    When evolutionists begin storytelling – you have to wait for all the details to come into the full light of day if you are really interested in an accurate conclusion. The full light of day is the enemy of the methods, practices and doctrines found in evolutionism.

    ahh – that feels better! 😉

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  30. I wonder if Professor Grismer who called Louie Bishop either ignorant or stupid is aware that he not only graduated from the University of California Davis with a Bachelor’s degree in Business but was awarded “Student/Athlete of the Year” his Senior year. He was a standout both academically and athletically his entire four years at Davis.

    He is neither stupid or ignorant.

    How sad to treat young people in this manner.




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  31. Gen 1:2 says: “DARKNESS was over the surface of the deep”.
    I have always wondered what this means. Darkness is a symbol for sin. Could it mean than after Satan was expelled from heaven, that he came to earth and claimed it as his own. He then set about to make his own creation.

    1. In his 1st eon he set off some explosions and caused volcaneos to errupt to make some land.
    2. In his next eon he used his knowledge of chemistry to create an atmosphere.
    3. In his next eon he brought plant and animal life from other planets in his spaceship. Violent creatures like dinosaurs were the result.

    Then God came down to redeem His planet. He came to a watery area and brought up land in one day. He created a better atmospehere in one day. He created plants, animals and mankind in one day. He had to protect his creation so he put a wall around it with a gate. Satan could roam the entire earth, but could only go to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When he suceeded in causing mankind to sin, they had to leave this perfect garden. He placed angels with flaming swords to prevent them from returning.

    EGW tells us that the reason Lucifer became jealous was that the Trinity went into a private Earth planning session and he was not invited. He wanted to prove his creative abilities so the Trinity put their plans on hold and let Lucifer/Satan do his rebellious thing on earth for eons. Thus the DARKNESS of evil covered the earth. Then it was time to show the universe a comparison of the Devil’s ideas and God’s creation.

    This explanation has helped me reconcile science and the Bible. It’s not quite the temple idea I read about above. Does this work for anyone???




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  32. @Beth Bishop:

    I wonder if Professor Grismer who called Louie Bishop either ignorant or stupid is awarethat he not only graduated from the University of California Davis with a Bachelor’s degree in Business but was awarded “Student/Athlete of the Year” his Senior year. He was a standout both academically and athletically his entire four years at Davis.He is neither stupid or ignorant.How sad to treat young people in this manner.  

    You wouldn’t happen to be related to Louie would you? If so, you must be very proud of him. He has done and is doing something very special here…

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  33. What is so sad about this is that conservative Sunday keeping evangelicals would not tolerate this hog wash in their institutions, but we who advocate the Creator’s day of Rest must endure scripture denying pseudo-intellectuals who step on the scriptures while claiming faith in Jesus. How bad must it get? Does some one need to read the opening chapter of Patriarch and Prophets and ask these men to resign if they cannot accept what was written there? The fact that our institutions hire and protect these false teachers who deny the authority of Jesus Christ as a creator makes one very sick to the stomach. Parent and students come to our schools with the hope that they would receive and education distinctive from the world and instead they get an education that is one with it. Disgusting. I pray that our young men and women on those campuses continue to raise cain until the Lord swallows the campus up or the faculty repents.




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  34. Ellen White makes it plain that God was not dependent on pre-existing matter to make the earth–He laid the foundations and created everything in 6 literal days. I have posted this quotation elsewhere on this EducateTruth site. So, no, we can’t compromise the truth with the error about eons of time passing while things evolved with or without God…no matter which way you try to explain it.

    Why do we try so hard to make the foolishness of man coincide with the unfathomable wisdom of God? We need to accept the creation account as written. If God could create an adult person, why couldn’t He create things in whatever condition or age He wanted to? When Adam and Eve were “born” they were already full grown.

    As far as I am concerned our comparative pea-brains are not able to fathom the wisdom or creative power of God, and to stand up and say, “God lied and we have proof” is ludicrous indeed. I don’t care how much education these professors have had, they know nothing if they don’t know and accept the truth–the Biblical truth. They are big nobodies compared to the God of the Universe. And they have a lot of gaul setting themselves up as smarter than He is. Those are my opinions.

    Faith




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  35. Would it ever be appropriate for a local church to withhold offerings that were known to be helping fund LSU? Perhaps it could serve to add greater urgency to the matter. Money does talk, you know.




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  36. I know of one in leadership who has spoken out against the changes in
    our beloved church, and that is Samuel Pipim…he has had the courage
    to do this, and the Lord will bless him…also, our beloved Conf.
    President, Robert Pierson, had warned our church of the apostasies and
    false doctrine that were creeping into the church…so we still have
    some Calebs and Joshuas among us, though only a remnant…As Mrs. White
    said, “There will be few great men involved in the final work”…
    Many of our shining lights are dimming out; that’s why we can’t look
    to our leadership; we need to be rooted in the Scriptures and the
    Spirit of Prophecy that nothing well sway us from the truth…sealed
    by God’s Holy Spirit…




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  37. Im sure many have thought it but has anyone said it?………all this evolution nonsense at LSU all these professors that are saying these things, all this smells like JESUIT INFILTRATION into the remnant church. If we read the Great Controversy and if we read the Jesuit oath and if we believe what the Spirit of Prophecy says about Rome being the right arm of satans power on earth then lets call this for what it really is…..JESUITS are in control of LSU….period. Its time to look up because our redemtion draws nigh  

    I’m afraid Satan doesn’t need Jesuits in order accomplish his work. Let’s be careful what we say and assume lest we make ourselves out to look foolish. Making broad, sweeping assertions that have no real factual foundation will only hurt the cause of truth.




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  38. I think this story is a good example of how coersion distorts the search for truth. As demonstrated above, it is very difficult to have a civilized, rational and convincing discussion when differeing parties are under threat.
    I don’t know about the student, but certainly that attitudes demonstrated on this web site drive planes into buildings.




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  39. I have been following the issue for some time, about the teaching of evolution at LSU. I am very sorry that on such an obviously plain “thus saith the Lord” Biblically factual issue there is even a debate. But I want to remind everyone of what happened at the 1995 General Conference with the womens’ ordination issue.The real issue there, as a number in the denomination realized, was the authority of the word of God, or do we do what we want regardless of God’s revelation. Although the delegates voted 2 to 1 to abide by the scripture directive and not ordain women, in a slight of hand politically successful move, that vote was compromised so that everyone could do as they wished and not go against church teaching. As I remember, there was no outcry or even criticism from any leaders of the SDA denominational leadership. I believe that was a very significant final turning point for the Israel of today in turning our back on God and His word. As the very next year 1996 came on, it was very apparent at least to me that God has left the leadership of our church to their own devisings. I will not go into details here of the evidences that led to that conclusion, but my point is that in these revelations from LSU we see a little bit of the results of that fateful GC session.I might add that now we see the eminent complete withdrawal of God’s Spirit from the earth. What manner of persons aught we to be. God help us.
    Brother John K.




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  40. I am an Adventist who was away from the church for twenty years, and have only recently returned. What a change! The local church is relatively Godless. Electric guitar music screaming out in between Sabbath School and the service, with secular images projected above the rostrum. Charismatic songs in the kids Sabbath School. They use the word, “contemporary” to justify this, automatically resigning you to “old fashioned” if you disapprove. Hardly a hymn is sung from our hymnal. I choose to travel to another town to attend an excellent little church. The local minister doesn’t believe in Ellen White’s ministry, and is empty of spirituality. He preaches technically good sermons, but always avoids our unique beliefs. The local church attendance is high, but it’s dead if you attend seeking to be in the presence of Jesus.

    Why am I saying all this? I see the issues at this university as coming from the same source. A symptom of where we are in history. But in the same way no-one would listen to me if I were to phone the local conference to complain about the local church, I believe few will listen or care enough about this issue to take any action. I don’t know if it’s the Jesuits. But we certainly have many enemies in the camp. We can’t uproot the tares, but we can uproot teachers on the payroll. The church is very lax in responding to this outrage. It is my church, and I will not leave. But the leaders who are doing nothing should be ashamed of the influence they, via these evil teachers, are having on the young people in this church. And they ought to contemplate the truth that they will answer for all of this.

    The solution is not complicated. Sack or suspend the teachers involved, or close the school and start again. Seasons of prayer are needed.




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  41. I wonder if Professor Grismer who called Louie Bishop either ignorant or stupid is awarethat he not only graduated from the University of California Davis with a Bachelor’s degree in Business but was awarded “Student/Athlete of the Year” his Senior year. He was a standout both academically and athletically his entire four years at Davis.He is neither stupid or ignorant.How sad to treat young people in this manner.  

    Beth,

    Even more impressive is the young man’s courage and his determination to follow God – the Truth – wherever He leads, and at whatever cost. We can all learn from his example, and that of the other students who have brought this issue out into the open, and I ask you, if you do know him or are related to him, that you let him know that he is not alone, and that there are a lot of Adventists who agree with him and support him in the stand he has taken for truth.

    Regards
    Denver




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  42. I find this report very very disturbing. I wonder why the GC has not stepped in as yet. It seems as the university needs a complete turnover of staff, or closed down. It is a shame to our name that this university exists. I would like to send Grismer an email, does anyone have his address.
    May God bless those that are running this website, I have sent your newsletters to all that I know over here in Norway and England. We must stand up to this heresy until it is blotted out completely.




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  43. It will be very difficult for me to continue to return tithe to a church which will not do the right thing.  

    I hear what you are saying, but if this is your attitude about tithing, I would ask you to consider your motives? I pay my tithes to God, in the form of His church. I will pay them regardless of how the church uses them, because they are His.

    This attitude will drive one right out of God’s church if we are not careful. It’s easy to “justifiably” find fault with people and in doing so excuse our own behavior. But it’s not fair to God if we withhold from Him what He has required of us because others fail to do the right thing.

    We all need to get on our knees for our Church and for those in important positions. They need our prayers!




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  44. It is clearly evident that the leadership of the church has become totally direlict in their responsibility in supporting and upholding the pure faith. I pray that those faithful students will rise up from the grass roots and accomplish that which a leadership that has utterly failed to do. They are in denial the faith. If this were not true, those promoting error in our institutions would be immediately relieved of their post. May God have mercy on our church.




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  45. I am not sure if everyone is aware, but the colleges and universities are not accountable to any of the local conference administrations. While the presidents of those conferences sit on the board, they are answerable only to the “Board of Trustees” and the Union Conference President, who is elected not by the grass roots members, but by a selection of “Union Conference Delegates” We need to find out who our delegates are, and preasure them to elect administrators that will deal with problem forthrightly. I like Ricardo Grahm and Ron Wisby, but the responsibility ultimately lies on their desks, not the desk of the General Conference. There is a chain of command here that must put blame where it belongs. The education departments have long defended curriculums that inclde literature, and science that Ellen White would find offensive, and inappropriate. Why is it that you think that she has been shelved by so many pastors. It cuts across their path, and it is easier to nuetralize her than it is ask God’s Holy Spirit for strength and resolve to conform with what she has written. The vitriol expressed by some who also write on Atoday is evidence that the church has more “progressives” in control than they have Joshuas and Calebs.




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  46. Simply put, evolution is theology, a faith, not science.
    Jude gives us a lot of encouraging warning and instruction for just this type of situation! First we are to “earnestly contend for the faith,” because there are people coming in among us without our being aware “turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (v 3, 4) We, as Christ, “dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’” These people will gain a following (v 16) and then go out from us (v 19). Our job is to build ourselves and others “up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keeping yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.” (v 20-21) Keeping ever in mind Who only “is able to keep us from stumbling, and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.” (v 24-25)




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  47. T. R. Perenich:

    What is so sad about this is that conservative Sunday keeping evangelicals would not tolerate this hog wash in their institutions, but we who advocate the Creator’s day of Rest must endure scripture denying pseudo-intellectuals who step on the scriptures while claiming faith in Jesus.

    Be careful with sweeping generalizations. While we do have our troubles, and not just at La Sierra, conservative Sunday-keeping evangelicals have their own difficulties in this area. First, there was the conservative-liberal split itself, where most other Protestant churches became liberal, and conservatives had to leave and found their own churches. Then many of the conservative churches have their own troubles in this area. For every Brian College, there are multiple Wheaton Colleges. The ICR recently lamented that there were only 6 Christian colleges where short-age creationism was being taught. Their numbers may be slightly inaccurate, but if you think of all the colleges around run by other Protestants, that’s not an encouraging number. The ratio of (biologically) conservative colleges to the total is much better in Adventism.

    This is not to say that we are perfect, or that our colleges, especially at La Sierra, shouldn’t be improved. But it is to say that the idea that Sunday keepers do a much better job on this issue is simply not based in fact.




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  48. But Conference leadership have what is called “influence.” One word from them can change everything. And if those in Leadership think they don’t have this power, then they need to step down from office.




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  49. “I hear what you are saying, but if this is your attitude about tithing, I would ask you to consider your motives? I pay my tithes to God, in the form of His church. I will pay them regardless of how the church uses them, because they are His.”

    That’s like saying if the “church” decides to pay pedophiles to further their work you would support it. How ludicrous. We are responsible for knowing how those funds are being used. God’s church is not just the SCC, or even the NAD. There are many facets to God’s church. If someone sees a grave open sin or rebellion among them in one part of our global church then he/she should feel free to send his tithe to another part of the church that is not in open sin or rebellion. Too many people have this false idea that they just send tithes in to their local church no matter what. That’s not responsible stewardship – to further the cause of evil – and expect God to bless you because you sent it in without doing your homework to see how its being used. I believe God will overlook a person that UNknowingly sends their tithe somewhere they believe is using it properly, but you have no excuse if you know its being used wrongly. Yes, you should always pay tithes to God but He expects you to make sure they go to His cause and not Satans.




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  50. We need to also remember that God has those who have NOT bowed the knee to Baal. As a graduate student who has taken classes from LSU, I must say that there are those who are holding the lines of truth at LSU. Lets be careful that we don’t destroy a whole institution because of one rotten apple so to speak. I currently am taking a class at Andrews from an LSU professor who has shared with me some of the things she teaches in her worldview class at LSU. It is powerful the influence that she has there for the Biblical view of how things came to be. It is amazing how there are students there who make statements like, “I am not sure if God created the world or if it came to be in a way which is closer to a Darwinian point of view.” This professor is helping these students to come to a conviction about the beginnings of our world.




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  51. @Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.:

    Gen 1:2 says: “DARKNESS was over the surface of the deep”.I have always wondered what this means. Darkness is a symbol for sin. Could it mean than after Satan was expelled from heaven, that he came to earth and claimed it as his own. He then set about to make his own creation. 1. In his 1st eon he set off some explosions and caused volcaneos to errupt to make some land.2. In his next eon he used his knowledge of chemistry to create an atmosphere.3. In his next eon he brought plant and animal life from other planets in his spaceship. Violent creatures like dinosaurs were the result.Then God came down to redeem His planet. He came to a watery area and brought up land in one day. He created a better atmospehere in one day. He created plants, animals and mankind in one day. He had to protect his creation so he put a wall around it with a gate. Satan could roam the entire earth, but could only go to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When he suceeded in causing mankind to sin, they had to leave this perfect garden. He placed angels with flaming swords to prevent them from returning. EGW tells us that the reason Lucifer became jealous was that the Trinity went into a private Earth planning session and he was not invited. He wanted to prove his creative abilities so the Trinity put their plans on hold and let Lucifer/Satan do his rebellious thing on earth for eons. Thus the DARKNESS of evil covered the earth. Then it was time to show the universe a comparison of the Devil’s ideas and God’s creation.

    There are many problems with that.

    1. It assumes that when Satan lost the war in heaven – he lost heaven but then gained the entire universe so that he can do what he wishes with earth and can even go to other sinless planets where God has created life – and steal from God – transporting helpless life forms to his chaotic earth “experiment”.

    2. The second problem with that – is that there is nothing at all from Ellen White or the Bible supporting the idea that God wanted Satan to create life, or format a planet according to his own design.

    3. The third problem is that the Bible is clear in Romans 5 and Romans 8 that the disease death and decay seen on this earth is due to Adam’s sin.

    4. Matt 4 and 2Cor 4 both describe Satan as now being “the god of this world” – a position that he took after the fall of mankind.

    What actually happend is that Lucifer lost the war in heaven and then had no home at all. Not earth – not anywhere. He and his angels simply wandered the universe looking for some open door – some territory they could claim as their own by gaining accomplises among those whose domain was their own world – as in the case of Adam and Eve given this earth. God does not tell Adam to subdue the garden — God states explicitly that Adam is to (own and operate so to speak) “the earth” in Genesis 1. Gen 1:29-30 everything that grows “on the surface of the earth” and everything that “moves on the earth” was given to mankind. For God literally formed the living creatures of this earth from the dust of the ground – and then God had Adam name them. All of God’s creation were “vegetarian” according to Gen 1:30.

    This explanation has helped me reconcile science and the Bible. It’s not quite the temple idea I read about above.

    Your example serves to illustrates the point that there is no way to marry the Bible to evolutionism.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  52. The confrontation between Grismer and Bishop in this article reminds me of something I read about a few years ago and saved in my files. Here it is;

    On Nov. 24, 2008, Los Angeles City College speech professor John Matteson interrupted and ended Jonathan Lopez’s presentation mid-speech, calling him a “fascist” for speaking about his faith, which included reading the dictionary definition of marriage and reciting two Bible verses. Matteson told the other students they could leave if they were offended. When no one left, Matteson dismissed the class. Refusing to grade the assigned speech, Matteson wrote on Lopez’s evaluation, “Ask God what your grade is.” — Jennifer Mesko, CitizenLink.com, 02/12/09

    Do you see any difference? Quote a bible text and the faculty member flies into a blind rage. I don’t see a difference, and it is typcal of liberals and other losers. When they know that they cannot win a fair debate, they resort to condescending remarks to make it look like their opponents remarks are not worth responding to, when in fact they have no rational response to the challenge without having to admit they have been wrong. This is classic elitism and it should not be tolerated at all on any SDA campus of any kind anywhere. It is opposite of the biblical humilty that should be modeled by teachers at all levels of our educational system.

    If a SDA student can be exposed to the same condescension at a secular campus for his beliefs, why not attend there and save a ton of money?




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  53. I have found it so unbelievable that a Seventh-day Adventist University with all the evidence that Adventist scientists have on hand,(Gentry about granite, etc) let alone the Bible, would try to teach evolution as the origin of man. May God have mercy on us!! I pray that the situation will change soon.




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  54. Dale, “Liberals and other losers” is a fantastic description of the leadership we have at LSU and in the Pacific Union Conference. Take a look at what we’ve got–a whole bunch of both liberals AND losers! And who’s losing the most? The rest of the bible-believing SDA Church. These guys can’t stand God’s Truth, which is all you need to put them in their proper place, which should be done with a “big boot” out the door!




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  55. The more I read about this situation, the more I say ‘Shame on us’ as a church/parents/supporters/believers/brothers/sisters, for not putting an end to this blatant disregard for our young peoples spiritual well being. As brother Dale just said:

    If a SDA student can be exposed to the same condescension at a secular campus for his beliefs, why not attend there and save a ton of money?

    We need to be heard, we need to contact the GC in support of a literal 6-day creation, as the Oroville, CA church has done, request fundamental belief #6 reflect that. Get on the phone, call the GC, if enough of us call with our concerns something will be done. As the old saying goes, ‘The squeeky wheel gets the oil’. We shall be heard. May God pour out His Spirit upon His remnant church that we will stand for what is right & true, may we stand in the gap for our young people the world over.
    God bless!!!!
    Maranatha,
    Gwen




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  56. @Cindy Lou: Cindy is making it sound as though “WE” are the ones who can destroy the entire institution. We are only trying to protect our young people from those who ‘WOULD’ destroy the Institution. This is the “Let’s protect the Villain and prosecute the victims” attitude.Pastor Dan




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  57. I will not be deterred by the demonic attack on God and His Truth….nor will I be deteerd by my own Conference pushing a change in church structure by a Baptist pastor in defiance of the SDA Church …..however…..our young people and inexperienced members are being preyed upon.

    This is a betrayal to God and all He is…..it is a betrayal of the trust His has placed in the powers at be.

    I pray people will think long and hard before sending their precious children into the “fire.”

    I am grateful for this site that all of us out here know what to pray for…..

    These students are worth the blood of Christ…..they should be protected from this apostasy…………however, God will use this to His advantage.

    Prayerfully, the families will use this as a teaching tool for their children….that it will help them to never be thrown off their guard as to the movements of a demonic enemy out to destroy their view of their precious Savior.

    Those allowing this are either traitors to Christ, or they are not smart enough to have the positions they have.

    This is a confrontation between Christ and Satan.

    God Keep Our Children Safe,
    Deborah




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  58. @Pastor Dan Shafer: @ Pastor Dan, Lets just be careful not to become an accuser of the brethren. Bitterness destroys people pastor Dan. If you allow yourself to be all worked up by this and don’t have the Spirit of Christ in it, it does little good.




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  59. I think everyone can agree that we need to show a loving, kind, Christian spirit when dealing with what Ellen White calls “the worst form of infidelity” 3SG 90-91.

    Revelation 3:19
    As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent

    Those who are reproved by the Spirit of God should not rise up against the humble instrument. It is God, and not an erring mortal, who has spoken to save them from ruin. Those who despise the warning will be left in blindness to become self-deceived. But those who heed it, and zealously go about the work of separating their sins from them in order to have the needed graces, will be opening the door of their hearts that the dear Saviour may come in and dwell with them. This class you will ever find in perfect harmony with the testimony of the Spirit of God. {3T 257.1}

    Ministers who are preaching present truth should not neglect the solemn message to the Laodiceans. The testimony of the True Witness is not a smooth message. The Lord does not say to them, You are about right; you have borne chastisement and reproof that you never deserved; you have been unnecessarily discouraged by severity; you are not guilty of the wrongs and sins for which you have been reproved. {3T 257.2}

    The True Witness declares that when you suppose you are really in a good condition of prosperity you are in need of everything. It is not enough for ministers to present theoretical subjects; they should also present those subjects which are practical. They need to study the practical lessons that Christ gave His disciples and make a close application of the same to their own souls and to the people. Because Christ bears this rebuking testimony, shall we suppose that He is destitute of tender love to His people? Oh, no! He who died to redeem man from death, loves with a divine love, and those whom He loves He rebukes. “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.” But many will not receive the message that Heaven in mercy sends them. They cannot endure to be told of their neglect of duty and of their wrongs, their selfishness, their pride and love of the world. {3T 257.3}

    This idea of taking a strong stand for truth even though some will not accept it – is found in many places.

    “If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime, and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God” (3T 281) {3T280.3} .

    To secure peace and unity they were ready to make any concession consistent with fidelity to God; but they felt that even peace would be too dearly purchased at the sacrifice of principle. If unity could be secured only by the compromise of truth and righteousness, then let there be difference, and even war. Well would it be for the church and the world if the principles that actuated those steadfast souls were revived in the hearts of God’s professed people.” GC 45, 46.

    I have been shown that God here (the sin of Achan) illustrates how He regards sin among those who profess to be His commandment-keeping people. Those whom He has specially honored with witnessing the remarkable exhibitions of His power, as did ancient Israel, and who will even then venture to disregard His express directions, will be subjects of His wrath. He would teach His people that disobedience and sin are exceedingly offensive to Him and are not to be lightly regarded. He shows us that when His people are found in sin they should at once take decided measures to put that sin from them, that His frown may not rest upon them all. But if the sins of the people are passed over by those in responsible positions, His frown will be upon them, and the people of God, as a body, will be held responsible for those sins. In His dealings with His people in the past the Lord shows the necessity of purifying the church from wrongs. One sinner may diffuse darkness that will exclude the light of God from the entire congregation. When the people realize that darkness is settling upon them, and they do not know the cause, they should seek God earnestly, in great humility and self-abasement, until the wrongs which grieve His Spirit are searched out and put away.
    {3T 265.1}

    Too many to list here – but you get the idea.

    If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Ps 11:3

    If we lose the 3 Angels messages and the Sanctuary, the Sabbath, the sealing, the Close of Probation present truth – we become Christians that have lost Adventism altogether.

    If we lose the Creation Origins doctrine – we lose both Adventism and Christianity.

    Satan is now doing, through individuals like Thomas Paine, what he has been trying to do since his fall. He is, through his power and lying wonders, tearing away the foundation of the Christian’s hope and putting out the sun that is to light the narrow way to heaven. He is making the world believe that the Bible is uninspired, no better than a storybook,.. {EW 265.1}

    May God spare this denomination from making such mistakes.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  60. Let the truth come out – even though it contains sharp severity.

    Let action be taken promptly – as opposed to decades of delay while the “worst form of infidelity” takes root.

    No hesitation – no delay in action:

    “I have been shown that the most signal victories and the most fearful defeats have been on the turn of minutes. God requires promptness of action. Delays, doubtings, hesitation, and indecision frequently give the enemy every advantage. My brother, you need to reform. The timing of things may tell much in favor of truth. Victories are frequently lost through delays. There will be crises in this cause. Prompt and decisive action at the right time will gain glorious triumphs, while delay and neglect will result in great failures and positive dishonor to God. Rapid movements at the critical moment often disarm the enemy, and he is disappointed and vanquished, for he had expected time to lay plans and work by artifice.”
    {3T 497.4}

    Shake off your spiritual lethargy. Work with all your might to save your own souls and the souls of others. It is no time now to cry, “Peace and safety.” It is not silver-tongued orators that are needed to give this message. The truth in all its pointed severity must be spoken. Men of action are needed –men who will labor with earnest, ceaseless energy for the purifying of the church and the warning of the world. {5T 187.3}

    A great work is to be accomplished; broader plans must be laid; a voice must go forth to arouse the nations. Men whose faith is weak and wavering are not the ones to carry forward the work at this important crisis. We need the courage of heroes and the faith of martyrs. {5T 187.4}

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  61. @Pastor Dan Shafer: Pastor Dan, When you start lumping all professors of LSU together and other leaders, it isn’t fair to those who ARE trying to hold the lines of truth. Yes, we need to speak out, however, it is apparant that there is a wrong spirit on this forum and that bitterness is strong. Whatever our spirit and attitude toward others, it shows what is our spirit and attitude toward God. That is something worth considering.




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  62. Cindy Lou, There’s more than ONE “rotten apple” lingering at LSU. The root problem is that the “rotten apples” are RUNNING the institution!




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  63. @Ron:

    I don’t know about the student, but certainly that attitudes demonstrated on this web site drive planes into buildings. Ron(Quote)

    Very funny! 😉

    That is the kind of paranoid rhetoric that evolutionists share with each other as a funny kind of “balance” to the fact that Ellen White calls theistic evolutionism “the worst kind of infidelity”.

    So then we have creationists on the one hand reading an inspired text that tells us just how serious the cancer of evolutionism is to Christianity itself – and on the other hand we have evolutionists “telling each other stories” about creationists flying planes into buildings!!

    😉

    Very funny if it were not so sad that the evolutionists feel inclined to resort to such mythical thinking. Kind of lends credence to the statement by Patterson about evolutionism being a form of “antiknowledge”.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  64. @Cindy Lou:

    @Pastor Dan Shafer: Pastor Dan, When you start lumping all professors of LSU together and other leaders, it isn’t fair to those who ARE trying to hold the lines of truth. Yes, we need to speak out, however, it is apparant that there is a wrong spirit on this forum and that bitterness is strong. Whatever our spirit and attitude toward others, it shows what is our spirit and attitude toward God. That is something worth considering. Cindy Lou(Quote)

    I agree – no “lumping”. After all – there surely must be both facutly and Staff at LSU that are aware, and have been active in trying to stop what Ellen White calls “the worst kind of infidelity” that is being promoted at LSU in the religion and biology departments. Clearly those brave souls need to be strongly upheld and affirmed.

    In keeping with that – all of the critical posts I have noticed so far from Bible believing creationists – seem to be directed at exposing the work of the actual evolutionists, and those that form a wall of protection around them.

    So where do we see lumping that you are referencing above?

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  65. Cyndy Lou, The “spirit” on this website is to get rid of the “rot” infiltrating our SDA Church and its institutions. If you want to see the rot continue, then say and do nothing! That’s what most are doing, as will probably continue to do.




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  66. Those professors and LSU faculty who have sat around on their rear ends and done nothing for years are a part of the problem too. Let’s hear from them as to why they are not active in this endeavor. Probably because they either don’t CARE of actually believe it (evolution as fact) themselves!




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  67. Bob, Who are these faculty members who you say have been “trying?” I’d like to know who they are, IF there are ANY! Do you have an accurate list? Just wondering.




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  68. Kirk, How about paying our tithes to ordained SDA pastors who endorse “gay marriage” and marriage between anyone who is “human?” Pastor Tim Mitchell and the other 8 pastors who were deleted when I posted their names teach this. Should we be “supporting ” them with our tithe money?




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  69. Debbie, I agree with you about these characters “stepping down” but they will NOT! They gotta be led out the door with some work, which is what most SDA members, at least in the Pacific Union Conference don’t want to do. Even most pastors I’ve spoken with are “afraid” to say or do anything.




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  70. I applaud the professors at LLU for giving students the scientific knowledge they need in order to function in the real world. Conservative Christians may not like it, but need to understand that evolution is accepted as fact by the rest of the world – and many Creationists (including myself) do not see why evolution could not have been God’s means to create. I happen to know several LSU students who in the past were NOT taught about evolution, and after leaving school and being confronted with the overwhelming scientific evidence for it, they felt they had been deliberately deceived and betrayed by the school and by the church, and actually lost their faith in God as a result. How sad that we have forced students to choose between faith in God and scientific fact!

    Creation vs. evolution is NOT a salvation issue. One would think from some of the hate-filled comments on this site that many here believe it is. You might want to spend some more time reading what the Bible says about taking the log from your own eye before trying to remove the speck from someone else’s.




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  71. @Pastor Randy Brehms:

    I am not sure if everyone is aware, but the colleges and universities are not accountable to any of the local conference administrations. While the presidents of those conferences sit on the board, they are answerable only to the “Board of Trustees” and the Union Conference President, who is elected not by the grass roots members, but by a selection of “Union Conference Delegates” We need to find out who our delegates are, and preasure them to elect administrators that will deal with problem forthrightly. I like Ricardo Grahm and Ron Wisby, but the responsibility ultimately lies on their desks, not the desk of the General Conference. There is a chain of command here that must put blame where it belongs.

    Point taken. And if you will notice – almost all of the posts on this site have been directed towards Wisbey and Graham and the Pacific Union. To a much lesser degree you will find some posts directed toward the GC Education VP Larry Blackmer – based on comments and public positions he has taken on this issue. (Some of his statements have been helpful even though by far his efforts to criticise are directed at no one but EducateTruth).

    However the SECC is the “backyard” in which all of this is playing out – and they have almost all of the same ability to voice their displeasure with the “worst kind of infidelity” being taught there – as they do with their complaints about Amazing Facts. (See the list of action items on the SECC thread).

    BTW – it would be nice to know who those union conference delegates are – and how we might inform them as to the seriousness of the issues at stake for the upcoming PUC constituency meeting.

    The education departments have long defended curriculums that inclde literature, and science that Ellen White would find offensive, and inappropriate. Why is it that you think that she has been shelved by so many pastors. It cuts across their path, and it is easier to nuetralize her than it is ask God’s Holy Spirit for strength and resolve to conform with what she has written. The vitriol expressed by some who also write on Atoday is evidence that the church has more “progressives” in control than they have Joshuas and Calebs.

    Also a very good point. The problem that we face with evolutionism at LSU is really a symptom of a much broader problem that goes far beyond LSU. The advantage that we have with LSU is that the problem has names associated with it, and a well documented history, as well as clear lines of delineation as compared to our doctrines such that even Fritz Guy has admitted that our doctrines would need to change to actually accomodate evolutionism.

    It represents an extreme case of error – that nobody has a credible excuse for ignoring.

    As I have pointed out in previous posts – when compared to the relatively minor example of Kellogg’s “Living Temple” evolution is 1000 times the problem.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  72. @Ron Stone M.D.:

    Bob, Who are these faculty members who you say have been “trying?” I’d like to know who they are, IF there are ANY! Do you have an accurate list? Just wondering.

    Ron – I have no list. However Larry Blackmer and a few others here keep arguing that we are painting with too broad a brush – and that some faculty and Staff at LSU that promote the literal 7 day creation week less than 10,000 years ago are being overrun or put in a false light.

    But in almost every critique of LSU that is done here – the biology and in a few cases the religion department are mentioned as being the problem. No other departments aside from top administrators are getting that kind of focus. I would hope that many in those other areas are in fact Bible believing Christians who affirm our 28 Fundamental Beliefs, and who actively oppose “evolutionism at the gate” so to speak – just as Larry Blackmer seems to state.

    But what we have seen here is the view of some evolutionists who either think evolution should be promoted at all costs, or tolerated at all costs. We have also seen some self-proclaimed creationists that think that evolution is wrong but should not be so efficiently exposed and condemned as “the worst kind of infidelity” – and that things should basically continue as they are at LSU until that institution “just so happens” to want to do something different.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  73. @Lorelei:

    I applaud the professors at LLU for giving students the scientific knowledge they need in order to function in the real world. Conservative Christians may not like it, but need to understand that evolution is accepted as fact by the rest of the world – and many Creationists (including myself) do not see why evolution could not have been God’s means to create.

    1. By definition – that is “not a creationist”.

    2. Your suggestion is that evolution as a solution for the doctrine on origins – could just as well be married to the bible as creation – is demonstratably not workable.

    3. Any Bible believing Creationist would have a hard time rationalizing the material listed in the courses as being a simple dispassionate statement on the blunder, junk-science and myth of evolutionism on a pure FYI factual basis. In direct contrast the course work is seen to be just as biased and wrong-headed as professor Bradley self-proclaimed it to be.

    I happen to know several LSU students who in the past were NOT taught about evolution, and after leaving school and being confronted with the overwhelming scientific evidence for it, they felt they had been deliberately deceived and betrayed by the school and by the church, and actually lost their faith in God as a result.

    And just to think — they could have lost faith at LSU instead of waiting to do it some place else. I guess you have a point there – get rid of the bible-believing students “as soon as possible” — with a “why wait” program?

    Again – evolutionism lacks a certain degree of “logic”. 😉

    How sad that we have forced students to choose between faith in God and scientific fact!

    Again the mythology that evolutionism is “science fact” is a good story being told by evolutionists – but it is not creationism by any stretch of the imagination — nor is it science as it turns out.

    But should our schools be contrasting science fact with evolutionism? Oh yes! Absolutely!

    Creation vs. evolution is NOT a salvation issue.

    so does this mean you actually have not taken the 5 minutes to read Ex 20:8-11 and 3SG 90-91??

    If that is the case – I highly recommend spending the time there – it is well worth it.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  74. Bob, If “only” the Biology and Religion Departments are involved, I say that’s WAY TOO MUCH! So, are the other departments too scared to speak up for God’s Truth? Still wondering.




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  75. Lorelei, Speaking up and defending God’s Word by naming names is not “hate.” If you want to believe in evolution, go ahead. But, do NOT expect the majority of SDA’s to let you start teaching it “as fact” in our schools! You represent what Sam Pipim describes in his books as people who “turn around” the problem–The ones who stand for God’s Truth are the “troublemakers” NOT the actual people we see here and named on this website as BEING the problem.




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  76. “I happen to know several LSU students who in the past were NOT taught about evolution, and after leaving school and being confronted with the overwhelming scientific evidence for it, they felt they had been deliberately deceived and betrayed by the school and by the church, and actually lost their faith in God as a result.”

    And just to think — they could have lost faith at LSU instead of waiting to do it some place else. I guess you have a point there – get rid of the bible-believing students “as soon as possible” — with a “why wait” program?

    Again – evolutionism lacks a certain degree of “logic”.

    Bob, this is too funny. A friend of mine emailed this to me and I laughed out loud. This person, it appears, wasn’t paying too much attention to what she wrote before posting. That was great!




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  77. Dear Lorelei,

    You wrote that “I do not see why … etc”.

    Can you appreciate why people who can see why would not be able to agree with you that God’s means of creating the world ought to be held captive to your personal inability to see?

    Can you appreciate how inappropriate that is to a people who serve an almighty creator who is the express embodiment of love and of life?

    Regards
    Denver




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  78. @Lorelei:

    I applaud the professors at LLU for giving students the scientific knowledge they need in order to function in the real world. Conservative Christians may not like it, but need to understand that evolution is accepted as fact by the rest of the world

    It is unclear to me how Loma Linda (LLU) is getting mixed in with a discussion on LSU – (unless perhaps that was simply a typo — I know I am one with a lot of typo’s so not complaining in that case).

    But if it is intended to be LLU – then is the assumption there that LLU and LSU are offering mirror programs promoting evolution as “the right answer on the doctrine of origins”??

    If so – this is the first time I have heard of it.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  79. While it may be true “I happen to know several LSU students who in the past were NOT taught about evolution, and after leaving school and being confronted with the overwhelming scientific evidence for it, they felt they had been deliberately deceived and betrayed by the school and by the church, and actually lost their faith in God as a result.” The statement “overwhelming evidence” tells this person is an evolutionist. The evidence ISN’T OVERWHELMING” it is merely evidence for which there is contradictory evidence that is just as valid, and universally dismissed, and ignored by Evolutionary Scientists (so called. Teaching an adequate knowledge of what is out there is far different from teaching “It” as the preferred world view. That is betrayal of the highest form. A question that most evolutionists don’t want to tackle is; where did the matter come from that constituted the big bank? at that point most evolutionists wax mystical. Evolution it does not explain origin of the matter that was involed in the Big Bank (so called), it merely is man’s attempt at explaing what already exists, and at some point they can’t go back any further, thus the linear accelerator over in Switzerland. The reason for constructing that accelerator was to try and duplicate the same circumstances that created the “Big Bang” where did the original colliding atoms come from? I prefer the big bang where God said it, and bang it came into being! Creationism and Evolution are mutually exclusionary. what about that, do the progressives not understand? One is the truth, the other is a lie, you can’t straddle the fence. Deistic Evolution just tries to describe a powerless God.




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  80. @Pastor Randy Brehms: “Evolutionists” in the strict sense are usually biologists who have nothing to say about the Big Bang(!) – and why should (the theory of biological) evolution explain where matter came from in the first place? The problem is: there IS overwhelming evidence that the earth is *way* older than 6000 years and (to my knowledge) no serious evidence to the contrary. Ironically the widely (not universally to my knowledge) accepted model of primordial nucleosynthesis (“where did the early heavy atomic nuclei come from?”) indicates that the very fabric physics (and the universe) is made of was woven by a designer.
    Besides, the accelerator in Switzerland is not a linear one.
    The reason why it was built was to look a little deeper into the aforementioned fabric. Besides I like the idea of spending some billions of dollars/euros for a multi-national and completely peaceful project.

    Mark




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  81. Pastor Brehms asked “where did the matter come from that constituted the big bank?” Attend a tea party convention and you’ll find out all about it! 🙂




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  82. Of course I know Pastor Brehms meant “bang” rather than “bank”–and it’s actually a very good question, but it’s more than a matter of matter: where did all the matter AND energy in the universe come from? According to the physical laws (not mere theories or hypotheses) of conservation of matter and conservation of energy, neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed. Did they always exist, or did they create themselves? No atheist, not even a prestigious scientist with a Nobel Prize, can provide a naturalistic answer for that question! And even if one could, would it be any more “scientific” than the simple words of Genesis 1:1?




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  83. @Eddie: Most scientists’ answer “to where did all the matter and energy come from?” is “I don’t know”. Science is not so much about knowing but about trying to figure out more and more. And Genesis 1:1 does not really give too many details about the early universe.

    Mark




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  84. “The law of gravitation that emerged from the work of Newton and his predecessors works well enough to describe the motions of bodies in our own back yard of the Solar System at the present time. Its success was so great that early astronomers were confident that they had discovered principles that could be extended indefinitely and universally. But when attempts were made to explain some of the phenomena revealed by more recent observations, such as the way galaxies as a whole rotate, or motions and events occurring at the largest scales of existence, the amount of matter in the universe – and hence the gravitational effects that it was capable of producing – turned out to be woefully inadequate. But the commitment to a gravity-only model had become so ingrained that the response, instead of a willingness to re-examine the theory, has been to postulate the presence of invisible “dark matter” to make up the difference – later extended to the notion of “dark energy” to account for enormous forces evidently at work that the observed amount of matter can’t account for. Things have now reached the bizarre point where, according to the prevailing belief system, no less than 96 percent of the universe has to be there in forms unseen in order to explain the behavior of the 4 percent that is seen.

    Inventing unobservables to explain away failed predictions is almost always the sign of a theory that’s in trouble.”

    From James P Hogan: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/hogan5.1.1.html

    “Inventing Unobservables”, indeed … should we start a list?

    1. Missing Links
    2. Dark Matter
    3. Dark Energy
    4. Oort Cloud
    5. Vestigial Organs
    6. Junk DNA
    7. …

    It’s endless fun, but one wonders what it has to do with trying to figure out what’s going on around us?




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  85. @Bob:

    You are right – I made a typo – I meant to type “LSU” rather than “LLU.” I apologize for the confusion.

    Wikipedia defines creationism this way: “Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural agency.” Therefore, if I believe that God used evolution as a means to create life, I am by this definition a creationist. However, if you define a creationist as one who believes in a literal interpretation of the Genesis account, then you’re right – I’m not a creationist. It all depends on your definition of the word.

    Similarly, in interpreting the Bible, it comes down to your hermeneutic. If you try to interpret everything in the Bible literally, you will run into trouble very quickly. In my opinion, the key to interpretation is to seek to understand the intent of the author. I believe that the intent of the creation story is to convey that we were purposed and designed by one all-powerful God, who saw what He had made and declared it good. Whether He created the world in 6 days or over billions of years doesn’t change the beauty of that message – that He exists, that He created us, that He delights in us. But if you insist on a literal interpretation, Genesis 2:4 states “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,” – why did the author use the word “generations” if he was speaking of literal days?

    If you are willing to take 5 minutes to read something yourself, go to: http://www.theisticevolution.org/lit_genre.html and read the very interesting and enlightening article there.

    I am curious – have you ever rigorously researched the evidence for evolution? You casually refer to it as “blunder, junk science and myth” – but can you prove it to be so? Evolution is provable by science; creation is not. By completely discounting established scientific fact as rubbish, you betray that your head is entirely buried in sand.

    It is ridiculous to assert that by teaching students evolution that they will thereby lose their faith in God – unless you force them to make a choice between believing in scientific fact and believing in God. If the professors you and others have labeled (and in many cases, libeled) are indeed evolutionists and are also Christians (as all of them are), then it’s obvious that belief in evolution and faith in God are not wholly incompatible.

    I am completely baffled as to how the texts you cited establish that creationism vs. evolution is a salvation issue. The fourth commandment does not mention salvation, and neither does the passage in Spiritual Gifts. Can you provide any Biblical evidence that my salvation is somehow threatened by my belief in a God-designed and God-driven evolution? My interpretation of the Bible leads me to believe that I am saved by Christ – not by what I believe about how long it might have taken God to create the earth.

    @Denver

    The difference between you and I is that I am comfortable allowing you to believe what you wish to believe about creation/evolution without implying that you are by the very act of expressing your opinion somehow being inconsiderate to those who disagree with you. I am simply trying to suggest that we not “hold captive” our students by withholding information from them (even if it competes with the traditional stance of our church) – but that we instead give them the very best information available within a supportive Christian environment, and allow them the freedom to make up their own minds about what to believe. I believe that this is what LSU has done, and I appreciate that they respect the intellect and faith of their students enough to entrust them with this information. I fear that if our schools do not teach evolution at all, more and more young people will leave the church as they become disillusioned when faced with the overwhelming evidence in support of evolution.

    @Ron

    The tone of nearly every one of your comments is spiteful. The majority of the comments on this site are derisive and mean-spirited towards the professors and administrators of LSU. I don’t see any evidence of constructive criticism being offered in a spirit of humility and love – I see a bunch of pharisees plumped up with self-righteousness crying “Crucify him! Crucify him!” If that’s not hate, I don’t know what is.




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  86. @Lorelei:

    I fear that if our schools do not teach evolution at all, more and more young people will leave the church as they become disillusioned when faced with the overwhelming evidence in support of evolution.

    No one is suggesting that our schools not teach about the theory of evolution. Our schools should teach the very best that the theory of evolution has to offer. However, if this is the very best that a professor in one of our universities has to offer, it isn’t enough. A professor in an SDA university must be able to go beyond to show the students why the stated SDA position on origins is more scientifically consistent with the available facts than is the modern theory of evolution.

    You may think this an impossible task, but that’s where you’re mistaken. It isn’t impossible. It is very possible. There happens to be a great weight of evidence favoring intelligent design theory as well as the young-life position and a catastrophic formation of the geologic column and fossil records – consistent with the SDA interpretation of the Genesis account and the intent of the author(s) of Genesis.

    For more information on such evidence see: DetectingDesign.com

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  87. Lorelei, you post was a breath of fresh air. Don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here, though, particularly Bob’s.

    Sean, the problem with your position is that you are mistaken when you write “A professor in an SDA university must be able to go beyond to show the students why the stated SDA position on origins is more scientifically consistent with the available facts than is the modern theory of evolution.” This may be your position and that of many individuals here who have a poor understanding- not to mention an extreme fear- of what evolution is and how it works, but as honest Christians like those at Geoscience Research Institute are willing to admit, the available facts pose very difficult probelms for the SDA position.

    Forget the facts. It all comes down to faith no matter how you cut it.




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  88. @Lorelei:

    @Bob:

    You are right – I made a typo – I meant to type “LSU” rather than “LLU.” I apologize for the confusion.

    Wikipedia defines creationism this way: “Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural agency.” Therefore, if I believe that God used evolution as a means to create life, I am by this definition a creationist. However, if you define a creationist as one who believes in a literal interpretation of the Genesis account, then you’re right – I’m not a creationist. It all depends on your definition of the word.

    Very often we have debates between creationists and evolutionists. Richard Dawkins is familiar with the concept and so also AIG, and ICR and various other Bible-believing creationist organizations.

    For the sake of clarity – we need to address the issue that we actually see debated using the same meaning for terms that everyone else is actually using.

    Turns out – Moses was not a darwinist – not an evolutionist.

    Similarly, in interpreting the Bible, it comes down to your hermeneutic. If you try to interpret everything in the Bible literally, you will run into trouble very quickly.

    Turns out Adventists solved that problem many decades ago – we are historicist – we take the bible as it reads and we accept cases where obvious symbols are used such as the great dragon of Rev 12 – but we do not “insert symbols” into the text just because evolutionism “needs it”.

    Also we apply something called “exegesis” to determine the cases.

    Perhaps you have heard of it.

    In my opinion, the key to interpretation is to seek to understand the intent of the author. I believe that the intent of the creation story is to convey that we were purposed and designed by one all-powerful God, who saw what He had made and declared it good.

    That is called the “least principle” where you try to draw out the lowest most general principle and ignore all the details that do not fit your bias.

    We can do the same thing with the life of Christ – reducing it all down to “God is trying to tell us that He loved us – so don’t worry about the virgin birth, or sinless life, or vicarious substiutionary death, or resurrection – the only principle you need is – God loves you. All other details are fiction”.

    But such methods are nothing at all close to actual exegesis in studying the text and letting the Bible speak “instead” of bias.

    Whether He created the world in 6 days or over billions of years doesn’t change the beauty of that message

    Sure it does. As every atheist knows – having a story that simply “plays itself” over 6 billion years is very different from “God spoke and suddenly it was”.

    It is like saying “whether I actually dug that ditch with my bare hands – or the creek eroded it over thousands of years – does not matter – it all still says that I am very industrious”.

    Actually – it matters a great deal. It “matters” whether it was 6 billion years or 6 days. It matters whether it was an actual virgin birth for Christ or not. It matters whether He lived a sinless life or not. It matters whether He died for our sins – in our place or not. It matters whether or not He was resurrected.

    The idea that it does not matter whether the Bible is true – is an argument “necessary” if one is going to insert bias into the text and try to bend it to th usages of evolutionism. We call that “eisegesis”. But if you don’t start out with that “need” then the bending and wrenching of the text is not necessary.

    – that He exists, that He created us, that He delights in us. But if you insist on a literal interpretation, Genesis 2:4 states “These are the generations

    Because each day God “generated” or “created” some new aspect of this living planet.

    Literal days are seen in “evening and morning were the first day” – a formula that is never used in all of scripture for anything but a day.

    Literal days are also seen in Ex 20:8-11 that links directly to Gen 1-2:3 “SIX days you shall labor…for in SIX DAYS the Lord made”.

    Impossible to get out of that iron clad linkage as it turns out.

    Thus the existence of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

    If you are willing to take 5 minutes to read something yourself, go to: http://www.theisticevolution.org/lit_genre.html and read the very interesting and enlightening article there.

    I am curious – have you ever rigorously researched the evidence for evolution?

    Turns out – I have. And I have concluded that Darwin was right – so also is Richard Dawkins when they state that there is no possibility of marrying the “birds came from reptiles” 5 billion year story of evolutionism to “SIX days you shall labor…for in SIX days the Lord made”.

    It is clear as day.

    No rocket science necessary to see that point. We all see it.

    You casually refer to it as “blunder, junk science and myth” – but can you prove it to be so?

    It is well documented. Even atheist evolutionists themselve lament the 50 year long fraud (actually more like 100 year long) that we call “Simpsons horse series” that was in fact Othaniel Marshes “contrived sequence” – a seuqence that atheist evolutionists themselves admit “never happened in nature”.

    A sequence touted for decades by evolutionists as “the best evidence for evolution”.

    Then of course there is Osborns tooth fairy.

    And there is the 30 year fraud that Ernst Haekle passed off on the public. And more recently the 30 year Neanderthal fraud was just exposed.

    The fraud and junk-science used to prop-up evolutionism decade after decade is well documented as it turns out.

    Evolution is provable by science

    As it turns out – nothing of the sort has been proven. In fact we have atheist evolutionists themselves lamenting the case about those who invent stories from the fossil record “about how one thing came from another…stories easy enough to make up but they are not science”. (Colin Patterson – British Museum of Natural Hist).

    By completely discounting established scientific fact as rubbish, you betray that your head is entirely buried in sand.

    On the contrary – by employing even a modest amount of critical thinking and noticing the fraud history and junk-science methods of evolutionists – instead of merely sweeping the data under the rug – we end up with much evidence in support of the conclusion that junk-science is the core methodology behind the dogma in the false religion we know as evolutionism.

    It is ridiculous to assert that by teaching students evolution that they will thereby lose their faith in God

    Again your method is a bit too transparent as you seek to sweep the existing documented evidence to the contrary under the rug. Darwin, Dawkins, Provine, P.Z Meyers et al – admit publically that evolutionism did the very thing TO THEM that you claim it does not do.

    Furthermore – we have had testimony after testimony on this very web site about cases where it happened at LSU in the same way.

    And now we have documented case studies of both Europe and the US showing that high acceptance of evolutionism by the population is directly linked to loss of religious beliefs.

    – unless you force them to make a choice between believing in scientific fact and believing in God.

    Not necessary. All we have to do is help them develop the critical thinking skills NOT to sweep the examples of documented fraud so central to evolutionism under the rug so that they can tell the difference between science and junk science.

    Much easier than you might have at first imagined – as it turns out.

    If the professors you and others have labeled (and in many cases, libeled) are indeed evolutionists and are also Christians (as all of them are), then it’s obvious that belief in evolution and faith in God are not wholly incompatible.

    Wrong – again.

    If we were to argue that BECAUSE someone holds a self conflicted position – the position must not in fact BE self-conflicted “no matter what the details to the contrary” we do so at the expense of logic and even a modest degree of critical thinking.

    Surely you are not suggesting that we abandon all reason and leap off such a cliff.

    I am completely baffled as to how the texts you cited establish that creationism vs. evolution is a salvation issue.

    Did you read Ex 20:8-11 because if you had you might have noticed the handy way it ties into 1Cor 7:19 and James 2 and then Rev 12:17.

    James says that we are to live and act as those who are judged by the Law of Liberty in that case.

    The fourth commandment does not mention salvation,

    Did you notice the “inconvenient detail” that the gospel of John begins with Christ’s role as “Creator”? John 1.

    Did you notice the detail where worship to God – in Rev 14:6-7 is directly connected to the language of the 4th commandment? It is one of the few places in the NT where the 4th commandment is actually being quoted.

    and neither does the passage in Spiritual Gifts.

    Is it your argument that “the worst kind of infidelity” is a form of “salvation”??

    If so – I would be facinated to hear how that idea works out. Some details if you happen to have them.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  89. Ron Stone M.D. says:
    April 14, 2010
    Did these morons also start believing in worshiping on Sunday because of the “overwhelming evidence” the “world” showed them?

    “Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.” Colossians 4:5-6

    “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:” 1 Peter 3:15

    “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” 2 Timothy 2:24-26

    One of the pioneers of the Advent movement, William Miller was a sunday-keeper thus, “moron” does not justifiably represent a patriarch of our faith or the many intelligent and true Christians who mistakenly believe like that father in Israel contrary to Scripture.
    God bless,

    Rich




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  90. What kind of logic is this? “And there is the 30 year fraud that Ernst Haekle passed off on the public. And more recently the 30 year Neanderthal fraud was just exposed. The fraud and junk-science used to prop-up evolutionism decade after decade is well documented as it turns out.” (Bog Ryan)

    Should we conclude that Biblical archeology and the “truth” it supports is nothing but fraud because of people like Ron Wyatt, who we all recognize as a fraud? Creationism has every bit as much if not more storytelling as evolutionism. We all know about the active imaginations and untruths perpetuated by Kent Hovind, Carl Baugh, Tom Willis, Duane Gish, Walter Veith, and others. All easily Googled (for example “creationist frauds”).. Creationists have gone so far as to carve “man tracks” alongside dinosaur tracks to “prove” that humans existed alongside dionsaurs!

    Of course claims of fraud serve propaganda purposes vrey well.. Give it up Bob! Show some intellectual honesty.




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  91. Here’s but one amusing story about Duane Gish’s fraudulent stories about chicken lysozymes and bombardier beetle chemicals. Deliberate misrepresentations of truth.

    http://www.skepticfiles.org/evolut/bfrog2.htm

    So you see It’s easy to turn Bob’s statement the other direction: “The fraud and junk-science used to prop-up CREATIONISM decade after decade is well documented as it turns out.”




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  92. Bob, it’s clear to all open-minded readers that your reasoning is solid, rational, scientific — the posts of Geanna and Lorelei are an unfortunate [edit]. Thank you for consistently, patiently helping them to see their errors.




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  93. As I see it, this whole controversy boils down to one simple thing as far as I am concerned: Do we believe that the Bible is the living, life changing, Word of the God of the universe or do we not? Do we believe that this God is the all-powerful, all knowing Being He claims to be or don’t we? Believing in creation, as such, will never save anyone. It is in knowing, and believing in the all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful God of creation that will.

    I am not against studying ABOUT evolution in our schools. Our young people are bound to be met with it someday, somewhere–but that study MUST be done in the light of “thus saith the Lord” which ALWAYS should be center-front regardless of what we are studying. When we once start “reasoning” outside of the Bible we are on very dangerous ground. Mankind, led by the arch-deceiver, can always find a reason to doubt, to question, to turn his back on a “thus saith the Lord.” It happened to Eve in the Garden and it has been happening to Eve’s descendants ever since. But it always ends in destruction in one form or another. Always! If any theory does not agree with Scripture it is always wrong and the work of the arch deceiver. Always!!!

    Please, let’s stop our bickering and unite on the one sure foundation of “thus saith the Lord.” It is the only “sure thing” in this world and to venture off of that foundation will only end in suffering the second and final death. It is simply to big a risk to take.

    I firmly believe that we are living in the very “toenails” of the image of Daniel 2 and that King Jesus will soon burst through the starry skies to gather His faithful people and take them Home. This is not the time to be led astray by the many winds of false doctrine that are going to grow more and more powerful as time goes on. We must return to being the “people of the Book,” as Adventists were once called, if we want to be among the faithful ones who, with rapture, will exclaim “This is our God–we have waited for Him and He will save us. This is the Lord–we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation!”




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