Comment on Creationist students find little support from LSU by Sean Pitman, M.D..
I wonder if Professor Grismer who called Louie Bishop either ignorant or stupid is awarethat he not only graduated from the University of California Davis with a Bachelorâ€™s degree in Business but was awarded â€œStudent/Athlete of the Yearâ€ his Senior year. He was a standout both academically and athletically his entire four years at Davis.He is neither stupid or ignorant.How sad to treat young people in this manner.
You wouldn’t happen to be related to Louie would you? If so, you must be very proud of him. He has done and is doing something very special here…
Table of Contents
Sean Pitman, M.D. Also Commented
I fear that if our schools do not teach evolution at all, more and more young people will leave the church as they become disillusioned when faced with the overwhelming evidence in support of evolution.
No one is suggesting that our schools not teach about the theory of evolution. Our schools should teach the very best that the theory of evolution has to offer. However, if this is the very best that a professor in one of our universities has to offer, it isn’t enough. A professor in an SDA university must be able to go beyond to show the students why the stated SDA position on origins is more scientifically consistent with the available facts than is the modern theory of evolution.
You may think this an impossible task, but that’s where you’re mistaken. It isn’t impossible. It is very possible. There happens to be a great weight of evidence favoring intelligent design theory as well as the young-life position and a catastrophic formation of the geologic column and fossil records – consistent with the SDA interpretation of the Genesis account and the intent of the author(s) of Genesis.
For more information on such evidence see: DetectingDesign.com
From Advestist Today Blog
On April 5th, 2010 nicsamojluk says:
I wonder how long it took you to fish those extreme comments from the Educate Truth website. Did you find many other similar postings from readers? To they represent the views of either Shane Hilde or Sean Pitman, the main individuals behind the Educate Truth project?
The short answer to that question is no, the comments posted by Erv and others do not represent my views or the views of Shane Hilde and do not reflect the position or goals of EdTruth.
Also, as Erv very well knows, the goals of EdTruth have been very clear and simple from the very beginning – the production of increased transparency as to what is really being taught at LSU. Despite the suggestion of Erv and others that LSU is only teaching “about” the theory of evolution, Erv very well knows that this is a lie. The LSU science department is in full support of the truth of the modern mainstream evolutionary view on origins and is vigorously proselytizing for this philosophical position. This effort is in direct opposition to the stated fundamental ideals and goals of the SDA Church and is thus a robbery of the Church’s time and money by the LSU “science” professors.
Reporting on this truth of this situation has always been the goal of EdTruth and Erv knows it…
Also, Erv know that the accusation of Larry Becker that EdTruth blocks comments in support of LSU is untrue since Erv himself is a fairly regular poster to EdTruth’s blog pages and several extensive comments from Becker himself have been posted.
The only comments blocked are the ones usually moderated by automation, like those that contain swear words, are of excessive length, spam, or those which the author has specifically requested to be removed…
The latest from Adventist Today
Re: Educate Truth: Perhaps An Elaborate Spoof Turned Ugly?
On April 10th, 2010 Nathan Schilt says:
Wow! Thanks for the postings ProfessorNotKent. Having only briefly perused educatetruth on one occasion, I have to admit that I was not aware of the looniness which they apparently welcome in their club. At least it’s nice to know that they don’t hide who they are.
You are taking a lot of people’s selected quotes from the general comments posted on Educate Truth that are not endorsed by Educate Truth. Regarding the treatment of Geanna in particular, why didn’t ProfNotKent post the comments from Shane or I? Shane specifically begged Geanna to reconsider who frustration with some of the difficult posters who frequent EdTruth noting that such represent a tiny fraction of the overall SDA Church. I also explained to Geanna that the debate over creationism within the SDA Church has nothing inherently to do with salvation. One doesn’t need to be a Seventh-day Adventist to be loved by God or to be saved. In fact, the vast majority of those saved will not have been SDAs – shocking I know.
Also, as I’ve explained in previous attempted posts to this thread (all blocked by Atoday thus far even though this thread specifically addresses EdTruth and one would think they would want some sort of response published from EdTruth…) the claims of Larry Becker that EdTruth blocks posts in support of LSU are simply untrue. The only posts blocked are those that use swear words, are of excessive length, spam posts, and posts that have specifically been requested by the author to be removed.
It is simply unfair to characterize the opinions of the management of EdTruth with those who frequent the blog maintained by Edtruth just as it would be unfair to characterize the opinions of Atoday by selectively quoting comments submitted on its discussion threads. To be honest I am personally appalled by many of the posted comments on EdTruth in supposed support of our efforts. Shane Hilde feels the same way. Yet, we allow freedom in posting comments with which we personally take strong exception for the same reason that Atoday usually allows the same range of postings with which it fundamentally disagrees…
In short, I think you’d better withhold judgment on the position and efforts of EdTruth until you do a bit more of your own personal investigation instead of simply relying on the reports of those who are so passionately opposed to what we are really doing that they deliberately distort our efforts and present them in the most unfavorable and unrepresentative light possible.
Recent Comments by Sean Pitman, M.D.
“Essentially all the administrators, staff and faculty on our campus, including the pastors on our campus already know where I stand. I have never kept any secrets. I have to laugh when I see you say that I am upset because you ‘blew my cover.’ There was no cover to blow.” – Bryan Ness
You’re not the main problem here. I’d have no problem with you personally and what you personally believe at all except that you are a professor in an Adventist school – Pacific Union College.
It’s this school who presents itself as being in line with the primary goals and ideals of the Adventist Church, when it really isn’t. I have friends of mine who have gone to PUC and talked to the leadership about sending their children to PUC. They’ve specifically asked about the situation at La Sierra University and asked the PUC leadership and heads of departments what their position is on teaching the theory of evolution as “the truth” – and if the teachers at PUC support the SDA position on origins and other issues? They were told that PUC does not condone what happened at LSU and that the professors at PUC are fully in line with the SDA position on origins and all of the other fundamental positions of the church.
Of course, you know and I know that this just isn’t true. You, for one, publically speak and teach against the church’s position on origins as well as human sexuality. This reality is not being presented by the leadership of PUC to the parents of potential PUC students. This reality simply isn’t being advertised to the general church membership at all. What PUC should be advertizing to parents and the church membership at large is,
“Yes, we do maintain professors who teach our students that the church’s position on various fundamental doctrinal issues is in fact wrong and should be changed to reflect the more popular secular position on these topics.”
That’s what it should be telling everyone, but this just isn’t what is being done.
I am attacking no one… Since when is a difference of views an attack on the church?
Since it was placed as one of the church’s “fundamental beliefs” by the church (Link). When you publically publish an article stating that the Church’s position is clearly mistaken and should be changed, that’s an attack on the church’s position.
And of all the issues facing the church, same-sex marriage hardly rises to the level of a “primary goal and ideal.”
The SDA Church has chosen to describe the definition of marriage as being between one man and one woman as one of the “fundamental” messages to spread to the world – as one of the fundamental reasons for its very existence…
Now, you call what you’re doing, not an “attack”, but a “plea for compassion”. However, your plea for compassion is presented as a clear statement that the church’s position is absolutely mistaken – that the church’s position is not at all “compassionate” or even biblical. Now, you may be very honest and sincere in your views here, but that doesn’t mean that you’re not attacking the church’s position in a very real and fundamental way. The fact is that you are making a very clear attack on the church’s position while accepting money from the church as a representative who is supposed to be supporting the church as a paid employee.
Why do you want to cause such people so much pain?
That’s not my goal. However, if a person wants to know what the Bible has to say about what they are doing, I’m not going to pretend that the Bible has nothing to say when the Bible does in fact have something to say. If what the Bible says “causes pain” to a person living in what the Bible says is a “sinful” lifestyle, that’s between them and God. The very same thing is true of me and my own sinful tendencies. If what the Bible says about what I’m doing causes me pain, I can either respond to that by ignoring what the Bible has to say, or I can ask God for help in changing my ways.
Jesus himself said that He did not come to bring peace to those who are living in rebellion against God’s ideals for humanity, but a “sword” (Matthew 10:34). The denial of self and what we naturally want to do given our fallen condition, in order to follow God and what He calls us to do, is often quite painful indeed. That doesn’t mean it’s not the best path to follow. There simply can be no peace between God and those who wish to hang onto what God has said to give up. God does not condemn the sinner for being born broken, but He does warn those who refuse to accept His offer of help to escape their broken condition that, eventually, such refusals of help will not end well for those who are determined to follow their own way.
Yet, these professors get very upset when their actions are made public – when they can no longer hide what they are doing from the church at large. – Sean Pitman
Uh, I have never hidden my support and affirmation for LGBTQ+ individuals, and any parent who wanted to know my views on the subject could easily look up what I’ve written, or they could just plain ask me. I openly acknowledge where I stand on these issues on social media too. Essentially all the administrators, staff and faculty on our campus, including the pastors on our campus already know where I stand. I have never kept any secrets. I have to laugh when I see you say that I am upset because you “blew my cover.” There was no cover to blow.
You have not simply let people know what I advocate, you have attacked me personally and impugned my motives and personal spiritual path. You are causing pain not just to me, but to the very people I am trying to comfort and encourage. Your words are not just being seen by the legalistic and judgmental people like yourself, but by parents of LGBTQ+ children and those LGBTQ+ individuals themselves, many of whom are likely already heavily weighed down with self revulsion and depression. And you are doing this for who’s good?
And you wonder why I might be angry and upset? As hard as it is for me to do, I have daily decided to pray for you and those like you that God would soften your heart and show you the grave wounds you are inflicting on God’s beloved. I pray God will help you find compassion and clearer spiritual insight.
Do you really think it’s a “little thing” when our own professors are attacking the primary goals and ideals of the church from the inside? – Sean Pitman
I am attacking no one. You act as if you have not even read my article. I did suggest in there that I think it is time for the church to change and affirm same-sex marriage, but that is not an attack, that is a plea for compassion, a plea that the church return and study this topic again, and I laid out the reasons I think it is fully warranted that we do so. Since when is a difference of views an attack on the church? And of all the issues facing the church, same-sex marriage hardly rises to the level of a “primary goal and ideal.” You are inflating the importance of this topic. the only place where same-sex marriage really rises to a high level of importance is when you are an LGBTQ+ person contemplating marriage, or are the parent, relative or friend of an LGBTQ+ person. Why do you want to cause such people so much pain?
The purpose of the H.E. is not to wall people off by modifying curriculum of every subject to fit dogma. The dogma itself has to be enhanced with broader understanding of how to relate various perspectives to these fields of human enterprise.
Certainly, Adventist schools should by no means isolate students from popular ideas that are prevalent within secular culture. If anything, students educated in our schools should have a much better understanding of ideas like neoDarwinism or homosexuality than students educated in secular institutions. However, the education of students within Adventist schools shouldn’t stop here. Adventist education should also give students a reasonable explanation as to why the Adventist perspective on these ideas is actually supported by the Church – by professors who actually personally hold to the Church’s positions on these topics (like the topics of origins or homosexuality, etc).
Again, it is simply counterproductive to have a church school if professors in that school teach that the church’s position is not only wrong, but downright ludicrous, outdated, and completely opposed to the overwhelming weight of “scientific evidence”. Such teaching, by professors that are respected by the students, will strongly influence most students to be naturally opposed to the church’s position on these topics. Clearly then, this would not be in the church’s best interest. It would be far better, from the church’s perspective, not to form church schools at all than to have professors within their own schools attack the church organization from the inside.
But there is world of difference between presenting it as fact that the teacher believes, and a theory with problems. – @ajshep (Allen Shepherd)
I’m in total agreement here. Again, it is one thing to teach about a particular concept that opposes the teachings of the church. It is a far far different thing to then support this particular concept as “true” as compared to showing the students why you, as their teacher, don’t find it convincing.
That is why a teacher, employed by the church, is actually stealing from the church when they attack the church’s position on a given topic from within their own classroom or via a public forum. Such activity simply goes against what a teacher is being paid to do by his/her employer.
Your presumption and hubris are exactly what Jesus pointed out to those who brought the women caught in adultery. Have you learned nothing from the examples of what it means to be a Christian that you would indulge in such harshness and judgemental words and pronouncements.
Consider that while Jesus most certainly was very kind and gentle and forgiving to the woman caught in adultery (certainly one of the most beautiful stories in the Bible), that He did in fact tell her to “go and sin no more”.
I would say that the very same action and recommendation should be given to all who find themselves part of the LBGTQ+ community. God loves sinners and came to save all of us who find ourselves caught in the web of fallen and sinful lives. He doesn’t condemn us for being broken, but He does offer us a way out and tells us to “go and sin no more”.
In light of this, my problem with the efforts of Dr. Ness is that he is making the claim that there is no brokenness or moral problem with committed monogamous homosexual lifestyles – that the Bible says absolutely nothing in this regard and therefore there is nothing for God to forgive here. There is simply no need to say, “I love you, now go and sin no more”.
I’m also not quite sure why Dr. Ness draws the line with monogamy since he doesn’t accept the Biblical statements, often within the same passages as those discussing monogamy, that speak against homosexual activities? This seems inconsistent to me since it seems quite reasonable, given the arguments presented by Dr. Ness, that polygamy could also be argued as being even more consistent with God’s will and natural genetic mutations that God Himself designed. Upon what “scientific” or “religious” or “philosophical” basis does Dr. Ness draw the line at monogamy as being the clear Biblical standard where God draws the line? – when many have very strong and very “natural” polygamous tendencies?
Of course, I also have a problem with a paid representative of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, who is responsible for teaching our youth in support of the primary goals and ideals of the Church, publicly arguing that these goals and ideals are completely wrong – on the church’s dime. Such activity, even if one is totally convinced as to the error of one’s employer, is unethical since it is a form of stealing from one’s employer.
At the very least, parents who are paying a great deal of money to send their children to one of our church schools should be very well informed as to what they can expect their children to be taught at our schools and what positions the teachers at the school are publicly promoting. Providing this information to such parents is my primary purpose in responding to Dr. Ness’s publicly published article in public forum.
Do you not understand what it is like in academia? Differences of opinion among scholars is not only tolerated, it is valued. I have nothing more to say concerning your accusations. Our church has no “official” stand on this issue, if by that you mean I am disavowing my membership in the church by simply believing that gays should allow ro get married to one another. That is not even how our church operates. I can point to many other church employees who openly disagree about certain issues of belief, including this one, and congregations that are fully affirming of same-sex marriage. They are a part of the SDA church just as I am.
My concern still is more about the tone and stance of your attacks. You are attacking fellow SDAs, some of them being the most vulnerable members of our church, and you seem to have no sense of the damage you are potentially doing to these individuals. By attacking me in the fashion you are you are also attacking all those for whom I am standing up. You may want to take Jesus’ words to heart:
But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea. Matt. 18:6
I know very well what it’s like to be involved in leadership positions within the church and within academia. My own father is a retired pastor and teacher. It’s one thing to publicly present and even promote various opinions that do not directly undermine the church or school one is working for. However, it is another thing entirely to directly attack the fundamental positions of the church while being a paid representative of the church. Such activity is not at all encouraged and is, in fact, unethical – a form of theft from your employer. Sure, there are many pastors and teachers who think to do such things anyway. That doesn’t make such activities morally right. It’s still wrong to do what you are doing.