This is a video clip from the GYC 2009 “Unashamed” conference, which took place in Louisville, Kentucky from Wednesday, December 30, 2009 – Sunday, January 3, 2010. Sabbath morning, GYC president, Justin McNeilus, moderated a question and answer session (begins at 00:52:30) with Ted Wilson, Don Schneider, Mike Ryan, Paul Ratsara, Mark Finley, Ella Simons, and Bill Knott.
Near the beginning of the Q&A session, McNeilus asks the panel the following question:
Some, not all of our colleges and universities, continue to hire and protect professors who do not believe in our core beliefs such as creation. Many youth have lost their faith under such teachers. How can this be stopped?
Watch the discussion at 01:02:58.
I thought the black sister tried too hard to be political in her answers. A recognition of Biblical roles was bereft in her answer about women. Where is the affirmation that heaven reserves for the mother in the home? It is lost in the feminist hoopla.
Where are the men who stand for the right though the heavens fall? Where is the courage of our organic church to say of evolution & homosexuality “This is non-negotiable. If you cannot abide by plain Biblical teachings, then you must go. Go in peace, but go you must.”
It also appears that some (drawing on elder Ryan’s comment) mis-interpret Jesus’ patience with Judas as a model for the church. In contrast, Paul met the Corinthian heresies directly, stating that such action itself was redemptive. The sinner was rebuked for the sin, and the flock were protected/assured by that accountability.
I very much appreciate Elder Finley’s acknowledgement of pride on both sides. This is absolute truth. Let us humble ourselves before God and pray for one another.
Blessings,
Gcw
View CommentIt appears that Mark Finley is a little more determined that we meet this problem “head on” than some of the other GC participants.
As for letting things have time to develope – it would appear that the past 20 years has “developed” a massive erosion in our stand against evolutionism in at least one of our universities. (The term “evolutionism” is meant to highlight the religious nature of the evolutionist argument)
And one of the participants did not seem very plugged in to the fact that the discussion context is specifically about so-called SDA professors preaching an overt pro-evolution agenda.
in Christ,
Bob
View CommentWhat is not clear at all – is whether the VP’s at the General Conference (and even the Division Presidents) have any say at all about what the Unions are allowing within our Universities.
View Comment@ Gerald
View CommentThe “black” sister has a name, it is Ella Simmons. It is found at the end of the introductory paragragh. (Unless of course you were demostrating just how politically incorrect you aspire to be.)
It was interesting how Don Schneider moved the entire conversation from reveling in condemnation of others to treating them like fellow humans. Good for Don!
View CommentI disagree. How long has this been going on? Is this love or weak sentimentalism? How many students may be turned away from the Bible by doctrines of devils while the conference sits on its collective hands and talks around the problem instead of doing something about it.
Is evolution heresy? How long do we bear with heretics in our midst?
Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sins, being condemned of himself.
View CommentAm I the only one that, while not disagreeing with Elder Schneider’s pastoral approach on dealing with all these “people,†was wondering what prevents him from actually paying the folks in question a visit to ask them if they need “help finding something else?”
The evolutionists and the supporters of the homosexual agenda have been vocally and publicly expressing their views for too long so it should not be difficult for Elder Schneider to find out who they are and what they believe in. Surprisingly, these people have been in direct opposition to the teachings of the Bible and the Church while being on the Church’s payroll.
This may sound harsh but I believe that there is a time when the leadership of our church will have to act and remove these people rather than wait to see if they will be intellectually honest to voluntarily resign…
View CommentWow, the GC Prez practices motivational interviewing to deal with sticky issues! I’m impressed!
View CommentI believe that
Ella Simmons did a very good job answering the question posed to her. I’ve seen both men and women manipulating for position and others who are simply following the leading of the Holy Spirit. How sad to think that God does not have work for women in and out of the home. God has used women throughout time in varied leadership positions outside of the home yet without a Women’s Lib. type of spirit. Ellen G. White is certainly a perfect example.
View CommentElla Simmons’ answer to the initial question at hand (regarding evolution) was very clear and I agree with it; in short, if our Adventist schools (at any level) are NOT teaching our beliefs then we have no use for them. As a tithe/offering paying member of the SDA church, I do not want my money used to teach a message that runs contrary to our church beliefs – that is the core reason I help to support these institutions, to further the Adventist message. I will not contribute to the paycheck of any professor who teaches something antagonistic to the very reason I contribute monies to them. Such creates a divided house that cannot stand.
I especially enjoyed Mark Finley’s point (at approx. 01:10.55) in reference to “academic freedomâ€; that being that when a professor voluntarily agrees to work & teach at a particular institution they give up their academic freedom in order to support/teach the views of that institution. To paraphrase; “since the tuition monies are paid to an Adventist institution by Adventist parents who want their children to get an Adventist education then they should get what they pay forâ€. Otherwise, we might as well send our young people to a secular institution.
Don Schneider (Pres. N. American Div.), in talking about the question of homosexual (monogamous) relationships, was ‘squishy’ in his reply. He never addressed the question directly, in my opinion. I believe the answer is fairly simple: If the employee is in the station of being in a role-model position (such as a professor, pastor, elder, GYC President, any church leadership role) then their personal conduct does/should come under scrutiny due to the influence they would possess. (1Tim 3:10 “And let these also FIRST BE PROVED; THEN [note: after they have been proved] let them use the office of a deacon, being FOUND [past tense] blameless.†(emphasis mine)) What this verse tells me is that there is a test, a standard that must be met BEFORE someone can assume a position of authority and influence in our church & institutions. I believe someone who continues & actively lives a homosexual lifestyle has barred themselves from attaining such positions.
However, if the employee is in a more ‘rudimentary’ position (janitor, office secretary, accountant, librarian, truck driver, etc.) then there is much more flexibility in how the homosexual question can be addressed. The Bible’s position on homosexuality is abundantly clear & there is no question that such a situation must be dealt with in a meaningful & Christ-like manner. We must give everyone a chance to hear the truth, receive the Word of God, and be provided TIME to deeply consider how the Truth affects their life/conduct. If, after being provided the truth (in a loving manner, of course) and given adequate time, that person rejects the counsel of God then they have disqualified themselves from receiving the fruits of the church. Obviously, many factors need to be considered in this process including the questions of 1) how much influence does the person in question have on younger or weaker (spiritually speaking) members of our church, and 2) how much time is appropriate? Let’s be sure to distinguish “love” from “sentimentality”.
In Christ’s Service,
View CommentAustin
At 1:18:55 Mike Ryan insinuates that Jesus put up with Judas sin, “Christ went YEAR AFTER YEAR and didn’t take care of it”.
There is a big misunderstanding when it comes to dealing with the brethren who are living in KNOWN SIN There are CLEARLY biblical passages that deal with HOW TO DEAL with sin DEPENDING ON whether the SIN IS OPEN, or secret. Was Judas sin KNOWN BY THE DISCIPLES? (If I’m correct) it was not, only Jesus knew of his weakness for covetousness, this is why you NEVER READ that his problem was made public OR OPEN to the disciples. Therefore Jesus dealing with Judas was according to the fact that his SIN WAS SECRET, therefore He dealt with Him for years in a secret, or shall we say DISCREET MANNER. Even up to the last supper, and the washing of feet we know JESUS WAS DEALING with the issue, seeking to WIN HIS HEART BY LOVE, and compassion, but Judas continually REFUSED the appeals of reformation and hardened his heart. Let me say that Jesus LOVE FOR HIM was a REBUKE TO HIS EVIL INTENTIONS FOR JESUS. Sometimes we have the idea that Loving one another doesn’t mean SHARP rebuke when NEEDED, God Himself who is declared to BE “LOVE” (1 JOHN 4:8) SAID “I REBUKE and chasten THOSE WHOM I LOVE”
When dealing with OPEN SIN, IN THIS CASE AN open profession of UNBELIEF AND BLATANT DENIAL of biblical morals, by signing your name in support of EMPLOYING known practicing homosexuals, the BIBLE DOES NOT teach to PUT UP WITH IT, this would be CONDONING THE SIN, and worst still leaving a brother or sister in a position that eventually if they don’t repent will cause them to be lost. Scripture parallels our sin to A DISEASE, that ONLY CHRIST can heal, which is why Jesus used the example of Himself being a Physician. I ask, if any one of our family members was diagnosed with a TERMINALLY ILL DISEASE, would we take the same DISCREET, SIT BACK, DISCUSS, ATTITUDE SOME of our leaders have? Or would we be proactive seeking to help them, and convince them they NEED A CURE? A lot of the times we are too worried about the possible repercussions of correcting erring brethren which is why IT SEEMS nothing is REALLY BEING DONE.
True Love for one another would NOT PERMIT one more second of ALL THESE HERESIES to be taught at ANY OF OUR INSTITUTIONS bearing the name SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST.
To openly have SDA’s profess their support in this manner, and then to say we SHOULD SIT BACK and BE QUITE, or do nothing, because Jesus did so WITH JUDAS, its quite a huge misunderstanding I BELIEVE. They are not SECRET ABOUT THEIR SINS, but we have to be secret with THE TRUTH? The bible teaches OPEN SIN needs to be DEALT WITH OPENLY (read 1 Tim 5:20;1 Cor 5:11) . Therefore you might know a homosexual SDA in church, but you only know they are a practicing Homosexual, then Matthew 18 comes into play, and THIS method Jesus says is to WIN THEM BACK (read verse 15 “thou hast GAINED thy brother…” if they listen to you)
COL p.g 72 “Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church..”
View CommentThe church has several options in dealing with this chronic and seemingly intractable problem. Here are some of them:
1. Require that the LSU stop presenting the theory of evolution as the only credible explanation of origins and balance it with the creation alternative, including the presentation of the serious weaknesses which beset the Darwinian views.
2. Abandon our Adventist fundamental belief in a literal six days creation as a credible explanation for origins, and replace it with a naturalistic view of what happened at the beginning.
3. Cut our financial and denominational connection with La Sierra University and transform it into an independent ministry similar to 3ABN and The Quiet Hour. This will allow LSU to do their own thing without any interference from those who believe in the story of creation found in Genesis.
I vote for either solution # 1 or # 3. Actually, I am more inclined towards the last solution. The problem is rather chronic and probably hopeless. The roots of the Darwinian deception are rather deep, and this cancer has spread to even the religious department of the school.
There is no known treatment able to eradicate this type of cancer; not even a proton cure will be able to produce a miraculous cure! Any effort to solve the problem will serve only to prolong the agony. If LSU is interested in supporting any other facet of the church’s work, let it do so as an independent ministry.
View CommentLucian, are you Pierre? Our Pierre? Sacrebleu? Either way, it appears Finley is on board with your assessment but, alas, the board is composed of more than Finley. Christ’s ambassadors are we (and all ‘true men’–Wycliffe), we must pray for the men on the boards. And pray that Finley’s spirit of wise urgency will compel the rest to act positively in support of the doctrine delivered to the 19th century Adventist saints!
View Comment@Nic Samojluk:
View CommentWhy would we want to recognize them as an independent ministry of the Adventist Church? 3ABN and Quiet Hour are recognized as supporting ministries of the church because they promote the Adventist Biblical message thoroughly and accurately, great blessings to our work. This cannot be said of LSU. LSU needs to be cleaned up (given time first to get it right in all departments) or denounced as heretical.
I believe that problems like teaching evolution must be met head-on. I also agree with what Austin said about the homosexual problem, that higher ups must be treated differently than plain church goers. When I think back of Moses and Joshua, even Paul and Jesus, there is no room to countenance such things. Jesus speaks to such problems through all the authors of Bible books. There are numerous lists of sins which cannot be part of God’s church. After time to confess (before God) and repent, they either change and be saved or they are on their own. While sins are in all of us, we make now daily committments to overcome and be changed into the likeness of Jesus Christ. The times we live in admit to no delaying to get us ready for Jesus to come again. We shall pray, but someone must take action.
JohnnyZ
View CommentThe panel session was almost a joke. The GC top dawgs were presented with some VERY IMPORTANT questions and most of them came up with fluffy answers and never really answered the questions. When it comes to Church leaders (local churches, schools, medical facilities, conferences, etc.) we should have a 1, 2, 3 strike your out approach. Our Church leaders are to present Christ as Christ presented Himself. The disciples were still in training and can not be compared to our current Church leaders. If a pastor, teacher, etc. is teaching non-Adventist (unBiblical) information, they should be warned once, twice, third strike your out of the position of leadership. This doesn’t mean they can’t retain their church membership and sit in the pew to learn the truth from those truly committed to God’s wonderful truth. Lord help us!
View CommentUntil we as a people realize that the beginnings of this is at the start of our children’s life instead of the late teens years and on. Our kids do not attend our schools at and early age. My view would be that more than 50% of the children attend public school in our denomination. So long story short if we are not sending our kids to our schools, what do we expect. It has to start early to teach, not when they get into college. Isn’t this being taught in public school curriculum at a very early time in their school life?
What do we expect when we neglect what we have been taught in our Bibles and Spirit of Prophecy. Our schools are indeed under attack and we are misguided if we don’t address that area along with the college age young men and women.
View CommentJH Kellogg promoting his pantheistic theories was much more subtle than this attack on the truth. It did take years before many understood where he was going. This attack on creation is much more blatant. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to know that these teachings are contrary to the Bible.
So, do you wait more years to deal with the problem? After all, this has been going on for years already. What is the acceptable collateral damage in all of this? How many students do we allow to become confused and potentially loose their salvation?
We need to act. The corporate church will appear to be giving sanction to these false ideas if it doesn’t act soon. The only way that I can see to stop the collateral damage is to take out the source!
Danny Whatley
View CommentIf the “influence” of a person or the social importance of the job in the church is the criterion for dealing with sexual or creatioon/evolution issues then it must have been a larger piece of fruit that Eve ate. If she would take a small one, it would have not been significant. Sin and/or disobedience is never relative or small. I am so amazed that we expect competence from our surgeon, but just love and the exhibition compassion to all those who suffer from the effects of sin, and of Satan’s power. Real men and women love and obey God’s will. Strong men and women stand up against evil. David has my final comment: Who is that uncircumsized Pilistine, that he should mock the God of heaven, and causes Israel to fear?”
View Comment@Nic Samojluk:
ATTENTION ALL Seventh-day Darwinians!!
Perhaps the school AND the teachers as well as the students can be saved?
Here is a portion of the testimony of a converted evolutionist. THIS IS A MUST READ FOR EVERYONE!!
Though raised on evolution, I one day found myself a born-again Christian who saw, immediately, an impossible conundrum between what I was taught my whole life and my new worldview. Within the first few days someone gave me the book The Genesis Flood, by Henry Morris, and for the first time I realized that the “proof” I was dogmatically given for evolution wasn’t as solid as I had been led to believe from grade school through college. Over time, and after more reading, I was soon purged of all macroevolutionary presuppositions. In fact, if (heaven forbid) I ever lost my faith, I could never go back to evolution. Alien seeding or the Babylonian creation story seems more plausible than the standard scientific paradigm of origins.
Two paragraphs down.
Now, it used to be that, for Adventists, evolutionary theory was a threat from without; as unbelievable as it seems, some among us have now accepted theistic evolution–the idea that God used the process of evolution, over millions of years, to create humanity. These folks, though, don’t worship the God of the Bible, for that God didn’t use a long, protracted, and vicious dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest paradigm–one that goes against everything He has taught us about love and self-sacrifice–and then lie to us about it by claiming He created life here in six days when He didn’t. Plus, that God didn’t ask us to keep the seventh day as a memorial, not to the six days of Creation as He explicitly told us in His Word, but to a brutal, hateful, merciless process that took millions of years.
To read the entire story, go to http://www.adventistreview.org/2003/story4.html
Sincerely, Your Brother in Christ,
Wayne Matlock
ps: Hey, those of you who believe and teach evolution, you are loved much in spite of what may seem hasty to you. Note the date on the article. This issue has been going on a long time. I’m just now finding out about it. You have had plenty of time already. It’s time to move on – or perhaps, try and give God a chance like the person in the story above? I promise you , you will not be sorry if you find that He wants you to believe the Bible as written. After all, if it isn’t all true – how can we believe any of it?
Once again – I am a friend you haven’t met yet,
Sincerely,
Wayne Matlock
View Comment@B. Gene:
As I commented earlier,we need to start teaching these things in our own church schools! When a senior in one of our Adventist academys (who had attended one of our church schools since grade 1)was taking a course in Daniel and was amazed to learn that that the story of Daniel in the lions den really happened and was a not a fairy tale like Cinderella we have a real problem that goes a lot deeper than something presented in college.
View CommentYes, we need to trim the “branches” on our educational tree but we, even more, need to work on the “roots” of that tree! We need to bring back some of those old Bible books like “God’s Great Plan” which were used when I was in church school MANY years ago. Yes, adding color and using some of our modern beautiful Bible pictures would be a great idea and some of the language could be updated a bit but the general theme and message of that wonderful book–which still plays a role in my life at 85+ years–should be not only kept but emphasized!
Dear Bill,
It was not my intention to attempt to address the ‘severity’ of the sin (sexual or evolutionary) in my post – sin is sin and ultimately leads to the same Judgment. What I intended to point out was how we ‘deal’ with it in our institutions. I do not advocate that those whose positions/jobs are less influencial somehow get a “pass” or that we shouldn’t deal with it; absolutely not. As a church we must address everyone who is being paid by our tithes & offerings as to what is acceptable and what is not.
If I have misunderstood your post please accept my apology and clarify what you meant.
Peace,
View CommentAustin
@Michael Dantzie: I agree with Micheal D. that Judus had not been a negative influence on the rest of the dieciples whereas these professors are leading our youg people down a wrong path. So I to think they should be told to leave.
View CommentAs a retired university administrator, I was deeply interested in what these church leaders had to say about a variety of difficult issues. I have several comments on the conference and the comments of interested observers in this forum.
1. First, and foremost, I am greatly encouraged by the dedication of the young people of GYC. Their strong commitment to ministry for God and the church is one of the most hopeful of signs for the completion of the task God has assigned to this church.
2. I found Dr. Simmon’s comments to be well-balanced and Bible-based. Gerald’s reference above to “feminist hoopla” overlooks the fact that early in its development, the Adventist church accepted that the ministry of men and women in the church is defined in accordance with Biblical teachings regarding Spiritual gifts, rather than culturally perceived norms. Were this not true, Ellen White could never have wielded such a strong influence in the church’s formation and growth. I am glad that in many parts of the world in recent years the Adventist church has become more open to the Spirit-driven ministry of all segments of its membership. This is true even in those regions where the role of women has traditionally been rather limited. For example, throughout the years that I taught a class at Solusi University in principles of church growth to our ministerial students, at least 80 to 90 percent of those students expressed strong support for the concept of women pastors.
3. I believe that most of us–Nic Samojluk included–would reject as totally untenable the second alternative suggested above by him. In suggesting that alternative #3 is probably his preferred solution, Nic used the analogy of eradication of cancer, referring specifically to proton therapy. As one whose prostate cancer has been completely eradicated at the Loma Linda University Proton Center, I appreciate the fact that protons can be aimed very directly at the cancer without damage to neighboring tissue. Applying this analogy to Adventist universities and colleges, I am confident that most faculty members–both teachers and administrators–at each of our tertiary institutions are strongly committed to upholding all the tenets of the Seventh-day Adventist church. It seems increasingly clear, however, that there are a few faculty members at one (and perhaps more) of our tertiary institutions, who have a different agenda and intractably insist on using their position and their influence to undermine the Bible-based teachings of the Adventist church through active promotion and teaching of contradictory ideas and theories. Wherever such “cancer” exists, the relevant Boards have the serious God-given responsibility to use a “proton therapy approach” to eradicate such life-destroying cancer. Far from “reveling in condemnation of others” (see Martin Schratt comment), such action on the part of the relevant Board is an essential act of “tough love”, having the potential to be redemptive to both the institution and the individual faculty members.
4. Constituents of all denominationally-funded institutions have the right to expect the governing Boards to ensure that all our institutions of learning are safe havens for our young people as they prepare for a lifetime of service. If the relevant Board is reluctant to carry out this God-given responsibility, the constituents need to follow the advice of the panel and deluge the members of the Board with letters calling for appropriate action. Similarly, church leadership at higher levels of administration need to lean the full weight of their influence and authority on recalcitrant Boards who are less concerned about doing the right thing than about being perceived as politically correct.
5. While I support in principle Don Schneider’s comments regarding a pastoral approach, I concur wholeheartedly with Lucian’s conclusion that there is a time for decisive action. From my perspective it appears that further delay in addressing the issue of intractable faculty members will only lead to the loss of many of our youth and the disillusionment of many of our faithful supporters. Certainly it is high time for each of our leaders to “call sin by its right name” and “stand for the right though the heavens fall” (Ed 57)!
6. The apostle Paul declared that all Christians are called to be Christ’s ambassadors, entrusted to reach out to the world with the ministry of reconciliation. Speaking of this “Ambassadorial Assignment” to the 2009 Annual Council, General Conference President Jan Paulsen spoke of “cynics and scoffers” for whom the “only reality they will accept is that which can be tested.” “The problem with the scoffers,” Paulsen observes, “is that they sometimes put on soft clothing, come into the church, and mix with the believers. They cause uneasiness among believers by appearing to be intellectuals, well read, and ever so clever. They demand intellectual respectability of that which is to be believed. They will then often intimidate the believers. Peter says that the problem with these scoffers is that ‘they deliberately forget’–in fact they choose to deny–the Almightiness of the Creator who caused the earth to be formed. But, says Peter, you, my dear friends, are not to forget (2 Peter 3:5,8). The deliberateness of their forgetting simply signals the fact that it is a choice they have made. Freedom gives men that option, and God has no answer to it except to hold them accountable in the judgment.”
“Faith,” Paulsen concludes, “cannot be suspended until it has gained respectability. Faith accepts the truth as it comes to us from the Scriptures. Faith disappears the moment it has to qualify itself by criteria that are basically and purely intellectual. Faith receives the Word of God and accepts it without qualification.” (Ministry, January 2010, page 13). It is only as we exercise this kind of faith that we are true ambassadors of Christ.
7. Let us unite in praying that God will protect all of our classrooms and our pulpits from the skeptics and the scoffers, and that our pastors and teachers will perceive, embrace, and impart to their classes and congregations the Spirit-inspired truths of Scripture, regardless of whether those truths are widely admired or are the object of ridicule and scorn by the majority.
View CommentDr. Wisbey suggested in something he wrote early last year, (which I believe is posted on this website)that the Adventist Church should consider a more “mature” approach to scripture given the “evidence” of the age of the earth derived from radio metric dating. I am glad that he publically made his views known. At least it is in the open. However I believe this statement of his support for evolution has undermined his credibility to the point that I don’t see how he can be expected to lead effectively. He should be asked to resign along with the professors.
Teaching evolution is worse than Desmond Ford’s apostasy. By undermining the sanctuary teaching many understood that the 1844 and the cleansing of the Sanctuary was actually the basis of our existing as a denomination. When they bought into Ford’s teaching they didn’t nesessarily give up their belief in God, they just left the church.
Undermining the Bible account of creation in favor of evolution undermines Belief in God, or replaces the God of the Bible with a god of nature.
View CommentThank God for GYC and their motto “Unashamed.†The healthy happy life-style of loyal Adventists is nothing to be ashamed of. The evangelistic outreach programs of the church needs no apology. The Ellen White book “Happiness Digest†(Steps to Christ) is still the best read little book in the world. My wife and I pass it out to people everywhere. When people ask to what church we belong I say something like this, “I don’t want to sound like I am bragging but I am proud to say that I am a Seventh-day Adventist and this little book tells you why we Christians are so happy.â€
View CommentIt is a shame that some teachers and pastors are ashamed of our progressive stand against Pantheism, Arianism, Theistic Evolution, Feminism, and now the New Age Spiritualism with Homosexualism. It is a shame I say that compromising leaders have allowed these heretical ideas to creep into some of our conferences, and schools.
The Bible foretold these worldly conditions and also gave the Three Angels Messages to “counteract the counterfeit†as Danny Shelton keeps telling us. Let us all join the GYC revival in evangelizing the world by preaching unashamedly the Sabbath more fully. The Devil’s lying wall of evolution will crumble into dust.
Talk is cheap. Let’s see some action, NOW!
View CommentWhile I wholeheartedly agree with those who feel any situation where our core beliefs are compromised should be dealt with quickly and decisively, I still maintain that the problem is deeper and more dangerous than just at LSC. The ground work is laid in our church schools and academies and until that is taken care of “triming the bad brances” at the top of the tree, though necessary, will not cure the problem. Give our grade schools and academies genuine Bible based text books that teach our core beliefs from the bottom up as we did when I was growing up. Rightly taught, our younger children can and will understand far more than we give them credit for.
And our homes must follow through with the proper home training. God had warned Israel that unless they reformed and started following His commands and trained their childeren as He had inatructed them Jerusalem would be destroyed and their children taken captive by other nations. Fortunately some of the parents took that advice seriously and fillowed God’s instructions. And Daniel and his friends are examples of how that training paid off. There were other Hebrew youth taken captive at the same time but they had not been so trained and they apparently “compromised” when taken captives.
View CommentWe simply cannot neglect the early training of our children and then expect them to stand in the last great conflict. And we cannot expect dedicated,Biblicaly correct adults to faithfully carry the torch of truth if no one gave it to them earlier.
I think we need people on the same page as those who are teaching at our schools to talk to these people. We can all exchange pleasantries with anyone, but we need to be on a similar educational plane to talk with others about certain issues. With a diverse academically trained membership this is increasingly difficult, but all of us need to be involved with other members at whatever level we find ourselves.
View CommentI found Simmons’ remarks about women to be blatant feminism and the men just sat there with no responsible comments. What does EGW say about those women who strive to positions that God has never intended for them? Seldom do you hear her statement about that anymore.
Ryan was, in my view, totally not correct when he implied that we go along with error for year after year which he characterized as Jesus reaction to Judas.
Sadly, the NAD President did not impress me; he holds a very responsible job.
View CommentThis issue is so black and white there should be no debate. Rev. 22:15 tells that the “sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie” will be outside the Holy City – in plain words they are among the “Lost!”
Evolultion is a lie. Homosexuality is a sin (immoral). Seventh-day Adventist beliefs are clear and those who teach in our schools must teach those beliefs or go somewhere else. Those living in sin must repent and experience the cleansing power of Jesus Blood which is free and availble to all. Jesus can give victory!
What is so hard to understand about this?
View Comment@Wayne Matlock:
View CommentGood appeal Wayne. We do not hate evolutionists, just their message and its damning effects.
Action is required, not just words.
At the same time we can praise the Lord that the General Conference is not a papacy which asserts control over every entity in the church. We don’t want that and can’t have that. The fewer you have in control the more easily, it seems, that Satan can get the whole movement off track by deceiving just those few.
Still, there is much that the brethren above can do even if they have limited control.
I seem to recall that when Uriah Smith allowed an article to be published in the Review about the law in Galatians being the ceremonial law, long after 1888, and thus resurrecting an old, dead controversy, leaders were in an uproar and threatened to cut ties with the Review. I seem to remember that particular threatening coming from Iowa. Can you imagine that kind of reaction today?
It used to be that our tithe-paid ministers were primarily evangelists. Evangelists tend to develop certain traits. They tell it like it is. They confront issues. They call people to decision, now. Otherwise, they don’t have results.
So how would a leader molded by years of front-line, pioneering evangelistic work deal with the current crisis?
But we’ve departed from using our ministers primarily in this way, a departure Ellen White counseled against. Nowadays our tithe-paid ministers serve sort of as head elders of our churches. And in doing this they have to quite naturally operate a bit differently. They have to keep people working together, not clawing at one another.
Of course, evangelists need to do that too among the church members aiding the effort, but the proportion of time spent on keeping people happy would be much less than a minister assigned to pastor a church in the way that elders used to do.
So, I think that today, because of the shift in the way we use our tithe-paid ministers, we have a greater tendency to develop leaders who are more tempted to be politicians than in the olden days. And succumbing to such temptations is not what we need at a time like this.
View CommentI posted the above after reading the above comments and before watching the video. Interesting how the evangelist Mark Finley had an easier time coming down firm than maybe some of the others regarding evolution.
I think that students who are taught evolution as fact in an Adventist school could and perhaps should seek a refund. Doing so would get attention.
View CommentMark Finley is echoing what Cliff Goldstein has said: If you are a Darwinist, have some integrity and go teach at a public university where Darwinism is the norm. But we know these folks won’t do that. First, it has taken them years to get a foothold in our system, to get control of a biology department in an Adventist university. It took years of maneuvering and conspiring, under the guiding hand of Larry Geraty, to accomplish this, and you can be certain that they won’t just walk away.
Moreover, they believe what they believe as strongly as we believe what we believe. They believe that Darwinism is rather obviously the true history of life on this planet, and that it is damaging to our young people to allow them to take literally the Genesis narrative, which to them is very obviously not to be taken literally. They believe they know the truth, and, as Randal Wisbey has stated, that they will be doing a service to the SDA church by helping it to incorporate this new scientific truth—evolution of life forms over the course of hundreds of millions of years—into Adventist theology and doctrine.
So Mark Finley and Cliff Goldstein can fantasize all they want to about these people having intellectual integrity, and resigning, but it is not going to happen. First, they worked, planned, and schemed very hard to get where they are. Second, they believe that disabusing our young people of an untenable “fundamentalist” understanding of Genesis is a great service, and absolutely the right thing to do. So, no, these people will not resign. They are going to have to be fired, terminated, canned, sacked, etc.
Likewise, Don Schneider’s approach isn’t going to work either. He says that he can sit down and talk privately with people and convince that they aren’t having fun in church employment because they don’t support the mission of the church. Then they voluntarily agree to find something else where they will have more fun, thus relieving Schneider of the need to take any formal action. Well think about it. If I were teaching creationism in a biology, geology, or paleontology class at a major public university, I would be having the time of my life. I can’t imagine anything that would be more gratifying than holding the Charleses (Lyell and Darwin) up to public ridicule in a hostile environment. Now put the shoe on the other foot, and remember that they believe what they believe as strongly as we believe what we believe. Don’t you think those guys at LaSierra are having a blast spreading the gospel of Darwinism to a crop of young kids unprepared to face that assault in an SDA setting, and probably unequipped to counter the arguments of their professor? I think they’re having a great time. So, no, Don Schneider, you’re not going to be able to convince these folks that they aren’t having fun. Again, these people are going to have to be fired, terminated, canned, sacked, given the heave ho, etc. and looking at this crop of administrators, I don’t see any of them, with the possible exception of Ted Wilson, who have the intestinal fortitude necessary for that distasteful duty.
View CommentMoney talks. Stop the flow of it to them, and they will acquire intestinal fortitude rather quickly I think.
View CommentSteve, I didn’t actually see this segment. I tried to watch it but did not get far enough. However, criticizing leadership and fellow believers is my pet peeve. I feel very strongly that before anyone makes a strong statement against another, the person should first have a conversation with the accused.
The older I get, the more I can relate to people not quite expressing exactly what they wanted to the first time. Now our incomplete communications get recorded and broadcast in the blink of an eye! (After a long day in ministry I often try to sleep when incomplete fragments of thoughts from the day’s conversations begin to float into my consciousness. To my dismay I realize I cannot edit! I make notes to clarify later, but often the opportunities are gone and I must leave these to God!)
I feel very strongly that Don and Marty Schneider are strongly committed Seventh-day Adventists and far from being slackers! As a pastor’s wife myself, I have been exposed to how easily one statement can be carried around like the Olympic torch–for years. However, by the time it goes just a little way off, the torch has become an inferno or large bonfire–and soon a forest fire devouring the landscape!
Please forgive me if I feel the need to put the fire out! If one has not personally given Don a chance to clarify his statement, then the topic should be dropped until he has that chance.
One thing I’ve learned in some of the struggles my husband and I just emerged from is that leadership in our church cannot impose any discipline without the help of the constituency–and there are other factors. (Despite our Adventism, we were raised in the 20th century and think things should be resolved quickly. Fast food. Fast resolution.) In the case of LSU, I imagine it is more complex than in the case of a little church.
For us, I remember feeling very frustrated that the conference leadership would not do what we wanted them to do when we wanted them to do it. Our suffering seemed to have no end. (It was extremely intense and affected many people in our church.) However, in the end we realized that the time that passed was necessary for God to unravel some circumstances to His glory! Had the conference leadership moved as quickly as we would have liked at the time, some of the wonderful outcomes probably would not have happened. Some precious individuals might have been swept out with the tide. Some individuals might not have been able to see things clearly and would have continued to be deceived. Some details might not have become more clear.
I have even more respect for our leadership than I had in the beginning. They came into the trenches with us when the time was right. I will always be thankful for their gentle intervention in our church. They began by assuming the best motives on everyone’s part. But when they personally came face to face with the evil once it was fully manifest, they directly dealt with it.
I am not advocating that we just sit by and do or say nothing. When we were going through the difficult trial, we continued to communicate with our leadership about events as they unfolded. We continued to make requests for help and discuss the issues. We did not criticize but continued to have respectful face to face meetings and email communication with the individuals we thought could help. This was done along with the necessary visitations with suffering or confused members. The three years were excruciatingly painful and exhausting.
Giving all individuals the respect that a human being that Christ has died to save should have in the process will ensure that decisive action does not do any unecessary damage, nor cause any students or evangelistic interests to stumble. We will also be modeling Christlike patience and love in the process. Something that is unfortunately rare among us.
I will pray for Don Schneider and his wife Marty, and will pray for all of the leadership who might be able to do something. (I will also continue to pray for discernment to know what I can do.) Since I personally know of the Schneider’s strong committment, I will assume the best–that they are praying to know what they can do, or that they are already acting. Won’t you join in praying for the leadership rather than (excuse the cliche) having them for dinner?
View Comment@Christiane Marshall: Thank you for you perspective. I’ve been a disappointed with some comments that have been made about our leaders.
View CommentJust a note about prevention. A better approach might be for us to not get there to begin with. Perhaps what is needed is a slower and more thoughtful process of promotion of individuals to positions of responsibility within church membership and in other of our institutions. That would be better than getting to the point you discuss here. The Adventist collective ‘umpire’ is often so visciously unkind that the member would likely be turned away forever. At times this collective umpire is really just an unthinking, responding mob.
Again, please don’t misunderstand. I am not against decisive action. But I know for a fact that human nature’s need to point the finger and ‘punish’ seems often to be out of control in our church. It’s a result of our own sin problem and our misunderstanding of what Christ can do for us. Our fears of seeing our own sin clearly can prevent more self-reflection, creating a need to find a worse villain. The enemy then uses our fears to destroy what God is trying to do in a situation. I’m not saying that you meant to imply something this onerous, but that the possibility of things getting out of hand is always there. How others perceive our statements is important too.
I wish I hadn’t started this comment as now I’m trying to explain myself more clearly and I fear I am just making mud!
p.s. I wonder if there’s a biblical reference for three strikes you’re out? : )
View CommentLydian, Exactly! I think this is a crucial point! The roots of the tree are the most important!
I’m not familiar with the publication you mentioned as I was not raised in the church. I’d like to see it. However, I think there might be more stuff available to us now (knowledge has increased)! Maybe some of that might be gathered together into some new publications we can use. Here are two resources we can use with children in our churches and schools: Answers in Genesis http://www.answersingenesis.org/, and http://www.thegrandexperiment.com/ (My husband just found this today so I haven’t looked that closely at it yet.)
I also think it’s important not to neglect those children who are not in our schools!
View CommentVery interesting idea!
View CommentGood point, David. However, dealing with the problem does require words as well as actions. And such rhetoric is extremely helpful in getting people’s attention and letting them know that the teachers involved lack intellectual integrity.
Perhaps Larry Geraty could respond to your statement. I heard years ago from a denominational worker either that Larry did not believe that the first 11 chapters of Genesis had actually happened, or that Larry believed that life had been on earth for millions of years, or both. There were two statements made by two different church workers at two different times, and one named Geraty and the other referred to a college president, as I recall it.
I wondered afterwards if that really was true why Larry was president of one of our colleges. His involvement with Spectrum certainly did nothing to dispel the possibility.
So it would be really helpful if Larry Geraty could come on here and make it crystal clear that he does believe that God created the world in 6 days about 6000 years ago, just like the Bible says, and that he does believe that God destroyed the world by a worldwide flood about 4350 years ago, just like the Bible says. And that he did not knowingly put professors in the LSU science department who he knew to be infidels.
View CommentIt was very disheartening to me how those on the panel skirted direct
View Commentanswers to certain crucial questions; as for the liberals within and
the independents without…we have much more to fear from the liberals
within than the independents without…the liberals have overtaken our
beloved church; we are in the time of the omega; as Mrs. White said,
more frightening than the alpha…may God give us strength to endure
to the end!
Was Larry Garaty the president of AUC as well, or was that another Garaty?
Seems like there was a Garaty there in the middle-to-late 80’s.
If it is the same one, then the problem is likely much deeper than just LSU.
Also worth noting is that Charles Scriven (of Spectrum magazine) is provost of KCMA. Makes one go “hmmmmm……”
Christiane Marshall, I wanted to say thanks for your thoughts and perspectives. We all do well to have balance to our positions, which I feel you offer quite effectively.
As I recall reading, God brought together Luther and Melancthon. Luther needed the calming effect of Melancthon, while Melancthon needed the energy of Luther. God’s cause would not have gone forward like it should have without that teamwork.
View CommentPerhaps we too need the zeal of those who wish to push forward with this issue at the same time we need the balance and calming effect of those that call us to prayer. Together they (the reformers), were more than just the sum of their individual gifts.
Perhaps a renewed call to prayer for our leaders like you have suggested is the right thing to do, to allow the Holy Spirit to work in ways that He hasn’t been able to until now.
This situation reminds me of the time ouyr church was struggling with the book by Kellog–The Living Temple. Ellen White lingered a while before speaking out against this book. Then God gave her a vision which we would do well to think about in this situation. Below I quote some of what she wrote concerning the vision God gave her. I think the principle can safely be understood and followed in our situation.
***************************************************
“Few can discern the result of entertaining the sophistries advocated by some at this time. But the Lord has lifted the curtain, and has shown me the result that would follow. The spiritualistic theories regarding the personality of God, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John to give to His people. They teach that the scenes just before us are not of sufficient importance to be given special attention. They make of no effect the truth of heavenly origin, and rob the people of God of their past experience, giving them instead a false science. {1SM 203.4}
In a vision of the night I was shown distinctly that these sentiments have been looked upon by some as the grand truths that are to be brought in and made prominent at the present time. I was shown a platform, braced by solid timbers–the truths of the Word of God. Someone high in responsibility in the medical work was directing this man and that man to loosen the timbers supporting this platform. Then I heard a voice saying, “Where are the watchmen that ought to be standing on the walls of Zion? Are they asleep? This foundation was built by the Master Worker, and will stand storm and tempest. Will they permit this man to present doctrines that deny the past experience of the people of God? The time has come to take decided action.” {1SM 204.1}
The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2}
Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {1SM 205.1}
I hesitated and delayed about the sending out of that which the Spirit of the Lord impelled me to write. I did not want to be compelled to present the misleading influence of these sophistries. But in the providence of God, the errors that have been coming in must be met. {1SM 205.2}
An Iceberg! “Meet It”
Shortly before I sent out the testimonies regarding the efforts of the enemy to undermine the foundation of our faith through the dissemination of seductive theories, I had read an incident about a ship in a fog meeting an iceberg. For several nights I slept but little. I seemed to be bowed down as a cart beneath sheaves. One night a scene was clearly presented before me. A vessel was upon the waters, in a heavy fog. Suddenly the lookout cried, “Iceberg just ahead!” There, towering high above the ship, was a gigantic iceberg. An authoritative voice cried out, “Meet it!” There was not a moment’s hesitation. It was a time for instant action. The engineer put on full steam, and the man at the wheel steered the ship straight into the iceberg. With a crash she struck the ice. There was a fearful shock, and the iceberg broke into many pieces, falling with a noise like thunder to the deck. The passengers were violently shaken by the force of the collisions, but no lives were lost. The vessel was injured, but not beyond repair. She rebounded from the contact, trembling from stem to stern, like a living creature. Then she moved forward on her way. {1SM 205.3}
Well I knew the meaning of this representation. I had my orders. I had heard the words, like a voice from our Captain, “Meet it!” I knew what my duty was, and that there was not a moment to lose. The time for decided action had come. I must without delay obey the command, “Meet it!”. {1SM 206.1}
That night I was up at one o’clock, writing as fast as my hand could pass over the paper. For the next few days I worked early and late, preparing for our people the instruction given me regarding the errors that were coming in among us. {1SM 206.2}
I have been hoping that there would be a thorough reformation, and that the principles for which we fought in the early days, and which were brought out in the power of the Holy Spirit, would be maintained. {1SM 206.3}
************************
Friends, we have another “iceberg” facing us–one that will destroy our God-given messasge and cause the loss of many souls if it is allowed to continue festering. The time has come to “Meet It!” It is not a pleasant situation or duty–but meet it we must as soon and as decisively as we can. With the help of the Holy Spirit the “ship” can once again “meet the iceberg” and the ship, though mightily “shaken” will survive and our wonderful message continue to spread to the world and Jesus can soon return!
View Comment@Bob Pickle:
So Geraty either would have to admit to his behind-the-scenes undermining of the SDA denomination at LSU — or he would have to admit that he was clueless about the overt evolutionist evangelism going on in his own Biology department as parent after parent came to him with complaints over a period of more than 10 years?
I am curious as to which solution he would choose.
View Comment@Christiane Marshall: Sister Christiane, regarding your question of a Biblical reference for the “one, two, three and you’re out” viewpoint, we might consider
View CommentAmos1:l,3,6,9,11,13.
That was the same Larry Geraty.
View CommentI attended an Adventist college in Mid-America where I came across anti-Adventist ideas brought about by two full-time professors.
One professor (English) taught that God has female breast and male genitals… that when He created male and female, He gave man the genitals and woman the breast. This same professor also taught that the flood was an isolated event.
The second professor (Theology) taught the JEDP Theory. “In brief, the JEDP theory states that the first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, were not written entirely by Moses, who died in 1451 B.C., but also by different authors/compliers after Moses.†This THEORY is dangerous if taught to young minds that are not grounded in truth. The professor also had other anti-Adventist ides he presented. I made 2-3 trips to the Academic Dean’s office in one year and the problem was never taken care of. After years of teaching at this college… poisoning many young minds, the professor studied himself right out of the church (did his Ph D studies at a Catholic university). He is now a minister at a first-day church.
I also attended an Adventist college on the West Coast where the Psychology professor promoted the homosexual agenda in class. This professor has been allowed to teach in our school full-time for many years.
How long will we allow the devil to poison our young people? I don’t know about you, but I believe we need zero to very little tolerance when it comes to theological poison. Our schools should be spiritually safe for my kids and your kids. If we don’t want to hurt our school (and church) leader’s feelings, then we had better do a better job screening each and everyone before we hire them and follow-up with regular evaluations. There is HOPE!!!
View Commentnow is the time to stand on the ‘thus saith the Lord’ Preach and teach truth we need men who are firm and resolute in what we believe we need some James White and men with poineer spirit to stand for truth. We should not compromise God is depending on us all Darwinism affects the basis the three angels meesage so it should be dealt with, with URGENCY. Act NOW.
View Comment@Bob Pickle: At this time, chrystal clarity is not to the advantage of the Seventh-day Darwinian party. Expect more avoidance and obfuscation. It is to their advantage to soft-pedal their Darwinism and continue to promote the idea that things are not so bad, and that the people like Shane and Sean are irresponsible wingnuts with a far right-wing agenda. The truth is that things are worse than most people know. The problem is not limited to LaSierra. The Darwinist party is active at several institutions. But it is currently only at LaSierra that the Darwinist party is in complete control, deeply intrenched, and has been for several years.
View CommentBob, Mighty strong condemnations there I see! Doesn’t sound like baseball though. The reasons for the condemnations are pretty fierce–threshing Gilead with threshing instruments of iron; carrying away the whole captivity; for not remembering the brotherly covenant; because of pursuing a brother with the sword and not showing mercy and for staying angry; for ripping up the women with child!
I know the issue at hand is a serious one and that decisive action is necessary, but I don’t think these verses describe the sins at LSU!
View Comment“The heart of the pastorâ€
Don Schneider’s reference to the “heart of the pastor†missed a very important principle of service. (Evidently he was primarily interested in “the heart of the pastor†towards leaders in our institutions.)
The educational institutions of the church have, as their primary responsibility, the spiritual and intellectual welfare of their students — not primarily that of the faculty and staff. (That is not meant to imply that the welfare of the faculty and staff should be ignored.)Thus the first responsibility of the leadership, both in terms of administration and pastoral care, must be the welfare of the students, not professors and administrators who are out of harmony with the fundamental teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
Consider the actions of Jesus in a parallel situation. The Pharisees (the religious elite of the day) were misleading the common people, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. To the Pharisees Jesus gave his strongest reprimands, comparing them to white-washed graves containing dead men’s bones and calling them “serpents†and “a generation of vipers.†This must have been utterly shocking to the common people accustomed to venerate the Pharisees as having a degree of sanctification that they could scarcely hope for.
Ella Simons gave a good assessment of the educators’ responsibility to the students, but her counsel to students demonstrated a lack of understanding the impact of the usual teacher-student relationship in an Adventist institution. She used her own classroom experience in a secular university as though it were parallel to an Adventist student in an Adventist classroom. She seems unable to appreciate the reality of it being far more difficult for an Adventist student to disagree with an Adventist teacher in an Adventist classroom in matters of conscience than for an Adventist student to disagree with a non-believing teacher in a secular university on matters of conscience. Adventist teachers are assumed to be teaching the truth; that’s why Adventist parents send their children there. Thus it is often easier for students to keep their faith in a secular university than in an Adventist classroom where a teacher claims to believe but teaches principles that undermine faith.
That said, any student attending an Adventist school should feel free to question a teacher’s presentation if it is not clearly understandable or appears to be contrary to Adventist beliefs. However, this assumes a degree of maturity and a boldness that few students possess when they arrive at our colleges. Parents send them there to *develop* such maturity and boldness.
If Adventist students encounter professors whose teachings are out of harmony with Adventist fundamental beliefs, they should present the matter to the administration, and the admnistiration should be quick to respond with action to remedy the situation in a matter of days, rather than decades. However, is that what really happens in such a scenario?
Ellen White’s response to the Kellogg situation was used as an example of how to wait for the right time to act. However, there were notable differences. John Harvey Kellogg was not an employee paid by church funds. He was the chief admnistrator of a sanitarium, and he was in a position to take the sanitarium right out of the church’s control. He was a man of powerful influence in the church and the world, widely admired for the spectacular success of the sanitarium. (His position was more analagous to the leader of an independent ministry in our day.)
By contrast, professors at LSU are employees. Discipline of employees is a relatively simple matter — especially if they do not have tenure, as is the case for those who most blatantly teach evolution as the factual answer to the question of origins.
Ellen White had special ties to John Harvey Kellog, regarding him almost as a son, and she naturally wanted to do all she could to win him back. But in time, she had a dream of the ship of the church meeting an iceberg, with the Captain’s command to “meet it!†After that she threw her influence behind those who believed it was time to act. That part of the story should have been included in the reference to White and Kellogg.
Of course, even in meeting obstinate error, we should always act in the spirit of Christ. But it takes wisdom only the Holy Spirit can give to know just what that means in specific situations. In Kellogg’s time, students and staff who worked under him had trouble distancing themselves from his errors. The church suffered from the fall-out right up into the 1960’s, when I was a young man.
We had a similar situation in the Desmond Ford crisis. Instead of giving him a bigger platform and more students to influence by calling him to PUC, church administrators should have dealt with him in Australia. Concerns of “pastoral compassion†caused a delay which proved costly in terms loss of confidence in fundamental Adventist beliefs throughout the world, but particularly in North America. The aftershocks are still shaking the Adventist world.
Ted Wilson’s emphatic emphasis to “work through the channels†of church administration were misleading at best. Most students are not aware of the “channels.†And it shouldn’t be the students’ job to start working through the “channels.†Unfortunately the Adventist church is no better than the government in dealing with immediate issues. Administrators prefer to avoid the issues by setting up “study committees.†This avoidance of issues is a breach of responsibility to the students who are at the university because it presumably upholds the teachings of the Adventist church.
If administrators of an institution are unprepared or unwilling to meet the issues, they should resign or be removed by the larger constituency. If the compromise with error is so wide-spread that even that is not feasible, a church that is committed to upholding the pillars of Adventism should be willing to sever ties with the institution and let the local constituency support it, if they wish. That way the tithe dollars of the wider Adventist body do not contribute to the salaries of teachers who teach contrary to their values.
Wilson’s remarks seemed calculated to cast aspersion on the efforts of the sponsors website. Wilson has the reputation as a “conservative,†and he is widely seen as a candidate for the next GC president. Is that the kind of “conservatism†church members want? A conservatism that insists on formality while souls are lost? Does Wilson know of all the efforts to “work through channels†made through the last couple decades? How long are people to “work through channels†while impressionable minds are misled?
Perhaps we need to consider again the experience of Joshua at Jericho. If there is an Achan (or several) in the camp, deal with him. That was instruction directly from God.
View CommentB. Gene, I’m trying to gather people together to brainstorm about how we can encourage more school groups to start up, and existing schools to remain afloat. specialeducator@earthlink.net
View CommentJust HOW did this drival answer her question ????!!!!!
View CommentI have been following the comments on this issue for some time now and, for the most part, feel most are pretty much well taken and to the point.
One thing really bothers me, however, and that is that it is just talk, TALK–and MORE TALK with, as far as I can tell, NO ACTION on the part of the ones who are in a position to DO SOMETHING about it. Would someone please tell me what the problem is. Why are we not seeing some action?
I talked with a teacher from one of our colleges last Sabbath and he just shook his head and said–“This has been going on for around 30 years and is in far more places than LSU.”–(although they are apparently the most blatant and outspoken in their rebellion–and that is exactly what it is–rebellion.) How long does it take to see a problem and act on it? I don’t mean to be critical but can’t help wondering what is wrong with the “powers that be???”
I was reared an SDA and, for the most part, received my education in Adventist schools–and was Dean of Girls and taught in one of our academies for one year (stayed home and raised our five children, helped my husband in his business and took care of his parents for 0ver 20 years after that.)
I have always had the highest respect for all of our teachers and leaders for I was taught they were “God’s anointed.†They were human and not always “perfect†but the ones at whose feet I sat both in church and school were dedicated Christian leaders who were not afraid to call sin by it’s right name. I loved and respected them all. But, I must confess, all of this delay and soft pedaling instead of acting has made me wonder about some (not all) of the leaders and administrators we have today. Where do we go from here????
View CommentLydian — the “problem” is that the Unions control the universities AND the unions nominate the GC officers. (Notice how “quiet” the Union officers are on this subject?)
The members of the SDA church need to be holding their Union officers accountable for their management practices when those practices are in gross error.
in Christ,
Bob
View CommentIt saddens me to know that this and any other teaching that is not founded upon an ‘It is Written’ and ‘Thus saith the Lord’ is tolerated at all in our church institutions. To think that my tithe dollars support teachers that don’t teach what we believe in our schools is troubling. Tithes paid in may decrease when people realize that this is where their money is going. I already check my church bulletin each Sabbath for where the offering is going to make sure that it will not be funding “programs” contrary to the Bible.
A Anderson’s statement about severing ties is appropriate. Ellen White wrote that we are not to send our children to schools that are not teaching Bible truths and that we are not even to associate with other Adventists if their influence is away from Christ in order to protect our children.
To the Law and Testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is NO light in them. To tolerate this, to not address this, with 30 years in progress is a shame. Do not send your treasure to any institution that will cause it to continue in a path that leads away from God. Your most valuable treasure is not silver and gold but the children God has blessed you with and of whom you must give account in the day of the Lord.
God will rebuke His people for tolerating that wicked woman Jezebel to remain in our midst. Now is the day. Harden not your hearts. Watchmen give a certain sound else you be found with blood upon your hands.
May God have mercy upon us all for being unfaithful servants.
View Comment@BobRyan:
Dear Bob,
View CommentHow do we get rid of those in the union who continue to support this sort of thing? I haven’t noticed that that the “peons in the pew” have a lot of influence on “who gets where” in the union or any where else. It seems to me that something needs to change somewhere before we lose any more of our young people to this heresy. And heresy–tho called by any other name–is still heresy!
Those in the pews may not have “power” as we understand it in a worldly sense but we do have the power of prayer! With pen and voice we can give warning and encouragement. May the Lord’s will be done.
There was a fire not long ago at one of our institutions in Washington State. There was a fire in EG White’s day at the Battle Creek location; this was a rebuke for not following God’s will in dispersing the work to many locations. Will God again use fire and other means of rebuke to make His voice be heard?
If the servants will not do their duty, then the Lord of the vineyard will miserably destroy those husbandmen and put others into their place of responsibility for God has already sent servants and then His Son to receive of His own. If we are not faithful in our tasks but say in our heart that the Lord delays His coming and begin to strike and beat our fellow servants then woe to us when the Master returns.
Do not lose faith for there are many who have not bowed the knee to Baal but have kept the faith. The tribe of Levi stood forth at Sinai and did the will of God and were zealous of His honor and there are ones who will be again zealous of God’s honor. And was not the tribe of Levi blessed for it’s faithfulness? May our prayers be in support of God’s work and for His faithful leaders that stand weary through the battle. May we hold up their hands that the battle be won and the victory be God’s.
View CommentIf we believe modern theory of origins over Genesis’, the fire, “at the Battle Creek location” was perhaps not also a literal event. Metaphorically, the account of the, “Battle Creek fire” may only have been to warn us of some illusive catastrophe, for the interpretation of which we must resort to infidel scientists doubting a, “Thus saith the LORD.” (cf. Genesis 1:31; Exodus 20:11; Isaiah 8:20)
God bless,
Rich
View Comment@Lydian Belknap:
View CommentAccording to the Adventist year book – Ricardo Graham was appointed as Secretary of the Pacific Union in 2006 and is now President of the Pacific Union.
http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/YB/YB2006.pdf#view=fit
The prior president of the Pacific Union – Thomas J. Mostert Jr. has served in that role much longer than Ricardo Graham has been an officer of the Pacific Union Conference. To a large degree then – Graham has newly inhereted the mess created under Mostert’s administration. (Though Graham was in the admin since 2006 so presumably he saw what was going on).
The point is that in addition to writing directly to Pacific Union officers to let your concerns be known – informed SDA members should also be contacting those officers that elect the Union officers for each 5 year term.
in Christ,
Bob
View Comment@BobRyan: Yes, in personal conversation with Ricardo Graham I know that he just recently became aware of this issue. Surprisingly, many people in leadership were unaware of what was going on. LSU had been working under cloak of darkness for so many years, but now that is impossible for everything they do is now out in the open.
View CommentTo Rose Durant:
You are right, Rose, we do have an all powerful God and He is ultimately in charge of His church. And we all need to be much in prayer over this (and other such) situations. But He still expects His people to go forth and fight the battles against the devil and his agencies. We still have a responsibility to “fight the good fight of faith†with all the power we have and He has promised to give us all the power we need when we have a problem to face and help us rise to the challenge.
I think it is a good thing that this situation has come to light. I, for one, knew absolutely nothing about it until it was brought to light by someone who did know about it. Thank God, we do have individuals who are willing to endanger their reputation and comfortable “peace†in order to make it known to the rest of us. We need to remember them in our prayers also for I’m sure this has been hard for them and their families.
We have been clearly told that Satan is furious with the people who have been called to truly preach the gospel and he will do everything in his power to counteract everything we have been called to preach. We must all be diligent in prayer and ask God’s help–not only to meet the foe–but to be sure that in some way we might not also be guilty of our own little “heresies.†Are we strict about how we keep the Sabbath? Is our diet one that heaven will approve? Is our dress one that truly represents what we say we believe? Are our children–from birth to maturity–being instructed in God’s plan for their lives? Do the textbooks–especially the ones that claim to be teaching our core beliefs–truly lay a solid Biblical foundation for them to build on as they progress from childhood to maturity? How can we expect them to “carry the torch of TRUTH “ if nobody gave it to them in their youth? This situation may well be of our own making if we have–as parents and as educators–failed to instruct our children in the way that they should go. (And I lay no claim to having been a model parent!)
I find it somewhat ironic that many of our leading evangelists (Doug Batchelor and Shawn Boonstra, for example) are men who were not reared “Adventist!†Truly, we have “met the enemy–and he is US!â€
View Comment@Shane Hilde:
Shane when we look at the problems at LSU that depended on the long tenures of men like Fritz Guy, and Thomas J. Mostert to help make it the mess it is today – I can’t help suspecting that there was a kind of lax “let them stay until they retire” attitude going on in the declining years — as problems became more and more obvious to people who should have known better – and yet they simply chose silence — chose to let it fester until retirement took people out of their leadership roles. Let it be “somebody elses problem”.
The problem in that downward spiral – is that when the new guys step in — they are either the wrong person for that job – or they are woefully under prepared for the firefight it would take to reverse course so late in the game.
in Christ,
Bob
View CommentAre you talking about Auburn Adventist Academy? What did they do wrong or are you asserting that God is just torching our church’s assets at random?
View Commentmartin,
View CommentIt wasn’t a fire at a school but an administrative site I was referring to. As far as the academy fire it is sad just as the other fire was at the administrative site but if God is trying to tell us something we need to listen. God does use His creation as a tool to rebuke…the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Egyptian plagues to name a few. Was God being reckless in flooding, torching, and plaguing?
God is merciful and not willing that any should perish but there will come the day when He will declare Judgment has come. In the meantime may our eyes be open to the methods of rebuke He chooses and take it to heart and be in accordance with His Word and His will.
I think, by referring to a “Darwinist party,” you are alleging a level of organization and focus that simply does not exist at LSU. I am unsure of your meaning of “complete control” as well, though it certainly does sound sinister. If you mean control over the curriculum and instruction throughout the campus, that is incorrect. I think we are forgetting that at university-level institutions, even one as small as La Sierra, departments are largely autonomous in the day-to-day applications of their disciplines. This is as it should be; I would certainly not tolerate a physics professor dictating my method of teaching or the content of my music theory classes, nor would he or she be qualified to do so. We are professionals and experts in our own fields, which is why we were hired, and we focus primarily on instruction. We do not even typically communicate well enough among ourselves, which any student, staff or faculty member could confirm.
David Kendall
View CommentAdjunct Professor of Music
La Sierra University
I understand that this statement is conjectural, but I feel the need to address it. I can not speak for Thomas Mostert, not having been in any meaningful professional contact with him. But anyone who knows Fritz Guy will deny that he is in any sort of decline, physically or professionally. I typically walk around campus with my briefcase at a high rate of speed, but Dr. Guy passes me despite being at least 50 years older. He is highly respected on campus at all levels, and while that may give some fodder for accusations that he exercises some level of “control,” there is no indication that anyone is “waiting for him to retire.”
David Kendall
View CommentAdjunct Professor of Music
La Sierra University
David – I did not mean to imply that Fritz Guy was no longer influential at LSU. Just that historically the problem at LSU was being underwritten by Fritz Guy in the theology department as well as those who have been named here in the Biology department.
And I believe that the administration was reluctant to do anything other than “wait and see”. Thus “retirement” appears to have been the “solution” they were opting for –
in Christ,
Bob
View Comment@David Kendall, BMus, MA:
Point well made.
“evolutionists taking over” a university should not be thought of as “evolution taking over music theory” or evolution taking over computer science, or graphic arts, or Calculus or geometry etc.
in Christ,
Bob
View CommentTo me, it all boils down to ONE THING: Who do I trust?
To start with, Who and what Books have been around the longest and have stood the test of time? I don’t think anyone can question the fact that the Bible has been around for centuries longer than any other book. It has been burned, hidden, reviled and scoffed at for centuries but so far nothing has been able to destroy it or successfully contradict what it says. Men have devised many plans to destroy it, or dispute its message. There is no other Book on planet earth that has gone through so many attacks, so many disasters, so much ridicule as has the Bible. At the same time, no other book has been so loved, so trusted, so died for than the Bible. There is just something about this Book that defies mans’ every attempt to destroy it.
What other book has lasted this long–and done this much good in the world? Whether you love it or hate it you have to admit that there is something supernatural about it–it has a kind of “protection†no other book in the history of mankind can claim. And not another one can even approach it’s “staying power.†And it’s messages have never changed or been equaled. Every place it goes people’s lives are changed for the better.
That says something profound about it’s real Author! Yes, it was actually written by human beings–but all attest to the fact that they were only able to “write†what a Being called God had given them. It was written over centuries of time by men–many of whom who lived centuries apart, in different parts of the world and never knew each other–yet never contradict each other. There is “something about this Book†that no other book in the history of mankind has ever even come close to being it’s equal.
Millions of books have been written by human authors–the vast majority of which are no longer around–and many that are still around have been discredited by other authors who came along later. And the vast majority were written by someone whose names no one even recognizes today.
The Bible never “corrects†itself . It’s message today about how our world came to be is just as it was centuries ago while even among today’s most brilliant scientists there is no completely agreed upon understanding of every detail of how our world came to be. Even Darwin’s ideas have been ‘tweaked’ a bit here and there over the years. This has never been done with the Bible. Yes, additional details have been added here and there but they all agree with the Genesis account –and none have ever been contradicted by other Biblical writers.
And there is no way modern scientists can read into the Genesis account vast amounts of time for each “day.†And the weekly cycle–established by God during creation week–is still with us. The moons determine the monthly cycle, the sun determines the length of days, but only the Genesis account gives us the seven-day week–still recognized around the world!
And “academic freedom†as is being tossed around so freely by many –and sounds so noble–in this debate I believe is seen by God as “Treason against the Most High.†We are living closer to the end of time than any previous generation and I, for one, believe that event is approaching far more rapidly than we have any concept of. The most important question any of us can ask ourselves is, “Am I ready for Jesus to come?†At that time the wheat and tares will forever be separated. “Which side will I be on?†is the paramount question we should be asking ourselves today. And the choices we are making TODAY on this and other questions will determine whether we will be among the “wheat†or among the “tares†when Jesus comes. “Choose you THIS DAY whom you will serve!†After all, Tomorrow may well be too late because none of us have the assurance of a “tomorrow!â€
View CommentPingback: Educate Truth - Evolution vs Creation at La Sierra University
It is interesting that at the 1:03:00 Q&A on Evolution taught at places like LSU – Ella Simmons’ answer indicates that she thinks this must be something that non-SDA faculty are doing. She is apparentl not aware of what is going on at LSU – and so this is/was not a well known topic at the GC level (to some extent).
Hopefully there is more information generally available to them by this time.
At the 1:11:15 Mark Finley gives his “no academic freedom” response when it comes to teaching non-SDA doctrines such as evolutionism at an SDA school.
At the 1:20:52 point – Mark Finley addresses the need to “meet it head on” when it comes to issues like the Living Temple and evolutionism taught in SDA schools.
And at the 1:13:30 point – Don Schneider expresses is primary concern which is that there be no trials, no uncomforable circumstances for the teachers – but rather that they be asked “are you happy doing what you are doing”. In his view those people that report to him in some fashion who have been teaching non-SDA doctrines from whatever those positions were – were not really happy in their jobs and would be happier in some other area, working someplace else.
Very interesting video segment.
in Christ,
Bob
View CommentMark Finley seems to have the guts to actually stand for something. Unfortunately, Don Schneider doesn’t!
View CommentLydian, The enemy is us is absolutely true! We have much more to fear regarding those within our SDA Church than for those outside.
View Comment@Andrew Anderson:
Ellen White’s response to the Kellogg situation was used as an example of how to wait for the right time to act. However, there were notable differences. John Harvey Kellogg was not an employee paid by church funds. He was the chief admnistrator of a sanitarium, and he was in a position to take the sanitarium right out of the church’s control. He was a man of powerful influence in the church and the world, widely admired for the spectacular success of the sanitarium. (His position was more analagous to the leader of an independent ministry in our day.)
By contrast, professors at LSU are employees. Discipline of employees is a relatively simple matter — especially if they do not have tenure, as is the case for those who most blatantly teach evolution as the factual answer to the question of origins.
Ellen White had special ties to John Harvey Kellog, regarding him almost as a son, and she naturally wanted to do all she could to win him back. But in time, she had a dream of the ship of the church meeting an iceberg, with the Captain’s command to “meet it!†After that she threw her influence behind those who believed it was time to act. That part of the story should have been included in the reference to White and Kellogg.
Actually Mark Finley did include the followup fact that Ellen White was told by God in a dream to “meet it” to face it head on when it came to Kellogg’s errors in “Living Temple”, as can be seen on that video.
One guess is that Finley was trying to “allow the point” made by Don to as much a degree as was possible – but was trying to add the balancing fact that action is still required and you cannot excuse yourself from taking decisive action decade after decade with the old “I am just being pastoral” argument. Finley was just being tactful in pointing out “there is a limit”.
As Ellen White said – lack of timely decisive action on the part of church administrators yields the church itself no end of grief. In a time of crisis we need men of prayer, students of history, men of vision – who are known for letting their actions speak for them.
But a note of interest – comparing Ford to the LSU problem. Even the “fix” for evolutionism still has the SDA church universities teaching evolutionism in science courses so that students can be informed about the particulars in that junk-science religion as it is practiced in the secular world today.
Now suppose in the case of Kellogg, that the Adventist church had to “continue teaching” Kellogg’s ideas in all of our schools – because those ideas were in fact “the religion of the land” outside of our schools.
The problem with Kellogg would have been 1000 fold greater.
in Christ,
Bob
View Comment4-16-10
I just read Nic Samojulk’s article of 1-7-10 (which some others may not have read.) I will quote the entire article before giving my response:
——–
“The church has several options in dealing with this chronic and seemingly intractable problem. Here are some of them:
1. Require that the LSU stop presenting the theory of evolution as the only credible explanation of origins and balance it with the creation alternative, including the presentation of the serious weaknesses which beset the Darwinian views.
2. Abandon our Adventist fundamental belief in a literal six days creation as a credible explanation for origins, and replace it with a naturalistic view of what happened at the beginning.
3. Cut our financial and denominational connection with La Sierra University and transform it into an independent ministry similar to 3ABN and The Quiet Hour. This will allow LSU to do their own thing without any interference from those who believe in the story of creation found in Genesis.
I vote for either solution # 1 or # 3. Actually, I am more inclined towards the last solution. The problem is rather chronic and probably hopeless. The roots of the Darwinian deception are rather deep, and this cancer has spread to even the religious department of the school.
There is no known treatment able to eradicate this type of cancer; not even a proton cure will be able to produce a miraculous cure! Any effort to solve the problem will serve only to prolong the agony. If LSU is interested in supporting any other facet of the church’s work, let it do so as an independent ministry.â€
**********************
I respectfully disagree with both points 2 and – especially – 3.
As I see it, there is simply no way to make LSU “an independent ministry similar to 3ABN and The Quiet Hour.†These ministries stand 100% staunchly for Adventist beliefs and teachings. Evolution is NOT “just another option” for us. With all due respect to the people involved, the “beliefs†they are teaching are diametrically opposed to our most fundamental belief–that God created our world in six literal days. Remove THAT PILLAR from our message and everything else we believe evaporates–the Sabbath, prophecy, the second coming–in fact, the whole Bible crumbles. God either did what he said he did in the opening statements of the Bible or he is a liar and we just throw the whole Bible out the window. If the very first words of the Bible are untrue, how can anyone put any confidence in any of it?
Also, as I see it, the only solution is to either clean up the science AND the religion departments–as well as any other places this poison is hiding or else completely break all ties to LSU and let it survive as best it can as an independent institution (not an “independent ministryâ€of the church) without the slightest ties to the Adventist church body. Our pioneers certainly did not make Kellogg’s theory an “independent ministry†(nor did we make Des Ford one) they completely broke ties with him and his “theology.†Regardless of the very real consequences–and there will be many–we can do no less with LSU and it’s teachers if we want to remain true to our God-given message.
View CommentLydian, I agree that both the Biology AND the Religion Department (at both LSU and LLU) need to be “cleaned up. I’ve addressed this previously, so I won’t repeat why.
View Comment4-16-10
I THOUGHT I had kept up with all of the entries posted on this web site since I first discovered it., but apparently that wasn’t the case because I just ran across this one (quoted below in case someone else hasn’t read it either.) My questions follows the copy.
_______________________________________
Ken Lytle says: (entered 1-10-10):
“I attended an Adventist college in Mid-America where I came across anti-Adventist ideas brought about by two full-time professors.
One professor (English) taught that God has female breast and male genitals… that when He created male and female, He gave man the genitals and woman the breast. This same professor also taught that the flood was an isolated event.
The second professor (Theology) taught the JEDP Theory. “In brief, the JEDP theory states that the first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, were not written entirely by Moses, who died in 1451 B.C., but also by different authors/compilers after Moses.†This THEORY is dangerous if taught to young minds that are not grounded in truth. The professor also had other anti-Adventist ideas he presented. I made 2-3 trips to the Academic Dean’s office in one year and the problem was never taken care of. After years of teaching at this college… poisoning many young minds, the professor studied himself right out of the church (did his Ph D studies at a Catholic university). He is now a minister at a first-day church.
I also attended an Adventist college on the West Coast where the Psychology professor promoted the homosexual agenda in class. This professor has been allowed to teach in our school full-time for many years.
How long will we allow the devil to poison our young people? I don’t know about you, but I believe we need zero to very little tolerance when it comes to theological poison. Our schools should be spiritually safe for my kids and your kids. If we don’t want to hurt our school (and church) leader’s feelings, then we had better do a better job screening each and everyone before we hire them and follow-up with regular evaluations. There is HOPE!!!
________________________
My question is this:
HOW DO THESE PEOPLE GET INTO OUR EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE? IS THERE NO “SCREENING BODY†AROUND ANYWHERE THAT DECIDES WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE IS QUALIFIED TO TEACH OUR YOUNG PEOPLE?
There are just too many of instances such as this now coming to light for it to be “accidental.†Either we don’t have such a screening process, the people who do the screening are terribly inept or else nobody “screened†them before putting them in that position. Either the “screeners “ weren’t screened in the first place or the folks that “screened†them didn’t do a very good job. How far up the chain of command does this responsibility go? Is it a case of “too many foxes guarding the chicken coop?â€
And where do we go now in getting things really cleaned up (or have things gone so far that it is now about impossible for humans to correct the situation) ??? I don’t mean to be critical or unbelieving but sometimes I truly wonder if that is the case. It sort of makes me feel that “home schooling†is the only option for parents who truly want their children to grow up genuine Adventists.
I am cheered, howver, to see so many of our youth standing up for the truth as demonstrated by the GYC 2009 “Unashamed†conference and those who have had the courage to stand up against their teachers who are teaching heresy in our class rooms. Also for some of our laity and ministers who are making their influence felt at this time. (God does still have some “Daniel and his three friends†among us and I am thankful for that!)
My only remaining question (at this point) is what can the rest of us do to help the situation–except pray? Surely there must be something and some way we can help besides just voicing our concerns on this website–as much as I am grateful to be able to do this.
And how do we go about “doing a better job screening each and everyone before we hire them and follow-up with regular evaluations.†Frankly, (and I really hate to say this) I’ve pretty much lost my confidence in “studies†and “committees to study…†set up by the folks in the leadership positions (with the exception of a very few–but thank God for the “few!â€) May their tribe increase at the coming GC in Atlanta! (I don’t know much about Wilson–who is said to be “in line†for the job of president of the GC but my choice at this point would be Findley (sp?).
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