Comment on A “Christian Agnostic”? by Ken.
Hello Pauluc
Thank you for very much for your insightful comments.
Some on this site think I disparage faith. i do not. I find much to be admired in Adventism especially the advocation of a healthy lifestyle. In a world of obesity and addiction. Also I am a great admirer of the Christian faith regarding the espousal of unselfish love for one’s fellow man. In a predator/ prey world that principle militates against our biological nature and, when practiced, gives us grace.
The ‘problem’ with any philosophy, system of thought, is that it is going to be challenged. I happen to think that is healthy and leads to positive change.
Religion is especially interesting because change often comes through charismatics – messengers or prophets. Each religion jealously guards its own. Religion and free will clash becuase the indoctrination, vs the
objective inquiry of same, happens at a young age. I remember, and do not resent, my Sunday school days very well! The cultural pressures on a child to accept the religious beliefs of their parents at a young age are enormous. I remember how my Catholic buddies all went to seperate schools ( in Canada) while the rest of us of myriad faiths or non faith were lumped into the public school system.
That is why when it comes to Adventism,or any system of belief, I am so interested in a person’s background, especially their childhood, because it sets the stage for everything a person believes thereafter. That is why, at Dr. Kime’s prompting, I shared my own childhood and religious experiences so you can analyse likewise. No doubt being raised in a liberal household where I was encouragred to challenge belief and read voraciously set the tone for my burgeoning agnosticism. That is why I was fascinated to read about Dr. Kime’s childhood and big tent moment at a young age. Once a belief is in place, just like my agnosticism!, it is very, very difficult to change. With respect, I suspect that if Dr. Pitman was raised by a pastor that experience is likelynthe chief formative one in his life. Pauluc, I don’t know if you were raised as an Adventist or not and if so whether you were raised with fundamenatal or progressive theology. I’m interested though if you cafe to share.
So when it comes to then investigation of empirical reality where does that leave all us childhood relativists as free thinkers? With the objective scapel of Science which cuts away relatavism and pre existing beliefs.
This is why I asked Dr. Kime the question, and i put it respestfully to yourself as well: when you examine reality which has leads the way: Faith or Science? And in fairness to our friends on Educate Truth, is Adventism that allows for theistic evolution a new faith impossible tomreconcile with exisitng doctrine?
Your agnostic friend
Ken
So where does that leave all us ‘relative’ folks
Table of Contents
Ken Also Commented
A “Christian Agnostic”?
Re Bob’s Quote
“But we can “observe” that the making of complex systems (and books, and works of art and science) is done by “creators” every day – observable, repeatable, testable. A mechanism proven to work.”
Hi Bob
Thanks for your comments.
This may surprise you but I’m actually intrigued by the design argument. My Dad is a Deist although I’m not of that bent, at least not yet! The laws of nature, i.e. gravity, that even allow the universe to exist are pretty marvelous. Did they arise as a result of a random quantum fluctuation or was their Grand Designer behind it all. If so what is or was the nature of such designer based on what we empirically observe about our universe?
The problem I have with intelligent design within our universe and especially regarding life on earth is theodicy. I do understand how the concept of original biblical sin accounts for the loss of perfection, but I have a very tough time understanding why a God would cause such destruction of his creation based on the disobedience of the literal eating of an apple. I just can’t rationally fathom how the eventual and natural demise of our solar system can be based on Man’s fall. Empirically, through science we can now view the death, and birth, of stars. Was this all caused by eating forbidden fruit?
Thus one must ask: why would a good, compassionate God create a Universe, and sentient life, that suffers and dies? Age old problem, that in my estimation has been allegorically resolved through the Genesis narrative.
Let’s move on to evolution. Micro evolution does not seem to be a problem for anyone. Life does adapt to its environment through genetic change. In my mind the issue becomes what happens over billions of years. After considering everything I have read to date I cannot honestly see an overwhelming case for a young earth. Moreover I have not read or heard anything yet that such a view can be scientifically supported by anyone without a biblical creationist bias. Given enough time great change will occur as evidenced by the vast diversity of life spread over every niche of our planet. Were there kangaroos on the Ark, or did they evolve in an isolated part of the world from whence they could not spread?
I don’t think evolution is a fraud or a hoax. Too many educated people of faith believe and accept it for it to be an atheist conspiracy. Have their been mistakes made and will they continue to be made? Are there dishonest scientists? Certainly. They are fallible humans, just like you and I, after all. But the issue is what does the weight of all the multidisciplinary evidence indicate?
Hope that helps
Your agnostic friend
Ken
A “Christian Agnostic”?
Re Sean’s Quote
“So, while it might superfiecially seem reasonable that given enough time, “microevolution” will simply add up to produce “macroevolution”, this simply isn’t true when one stops to consider the statistical probabilities involved at higher and higher levels of functional complexity – again, its an exponentially increasing problem for RM/NS.”
Could you please direct us to the links towards these studies? I’m interested in whether they contemplated modular vs. linear molecular evolution.
Thanks
Your agnostic friend
Ken
A “Christian Agnostic”?
Hi Wes
Could you please answer my previous inquiry? Thiis goes towards the issue of whether the perception of design is empirical or influenced by faith. I want to understand why your view of the Kebs Cycle as a sacrosanct design influences your faith in Genesis 1. As I said to you earlier the quid pro quo is that I will answer any of your questions pertaining to my agnosticism.
“Wes, in light of Sean’s comments I’m interested in yours as to whether
the Krebs Cycle is irreducibly complex or may have evolved from a series of enzymatic cascades?”
Thanks
Your agnostic friend
Ken
Thanks
Your agnostic Ken
Recent Comments by Ken
Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case
Hi Bob
I asked once before and I’ll ask again: what is your background and expertise in biology?
Your agnostic friend
Ken
Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Re: What every human being on the planet believes?
Empirically, as i don’t have blind faith I could know this, perhaps it could only be a divine being that could do so. 🙂
Always open to correction though to those that know the absolute truth,
I remain,
Your agnostic friend
Ken
Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote
“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”
Hello Sean
First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.
Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!
However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.
I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. 🙁 .
However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.
Good luck in your pursuit of God.
Goodbye
Your agnostic friend
Ken
Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote
“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”
Hi Sean
The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?
Conviction requires courage period.
Your agnostic friend
Ken
An apology to PUC
Dear Sean and Shane
Why has the SDA Church not published a scientific text on origins, compliant with FB# 6, to be taught at all Adventist Institutions? Can you really blame the institutions if such texts are not available? Or if they are why are you not promoting them as standardized texts.
Sean, as a leading advocate for overwhelming evidence supporting six day day recent creation, why don’t you simply write and publish a textbook and submit it to the GC for approval? After all you constantly refer to your website as containing such source material.
Just a thought.
Cheers
Ken
