[6/17/11 UPDATE] Two administrators, one biology professor, and one board member resign

Educate Truth shares the following article from Spectrum as a service to readers.

“Two administrators, one professor, and one board member were asked to resign on Friday,” according to Spectrum blog editor Alexander Carpenter.

The president and the provost of La Sierra University regret to announce the resignations of four members of our university family.

On Friday, June 10, Board Chair Ricardo Graham requested the resignations of Dr. Jeff Kaatz from his position as Vice President for University Advancement, Dr. Jim Beach from his position as Dean of the College of Arts & Sciences, Dr. Gary Bradley from his part-time faculty position in the Biology Department, and Mr. Lenny Darnell from the Board of Trustees.

These resignations have been accepted and are effective immediately. Campus administration is unable, at this time, to offer any additional details regarding the decisions of these individuals. Further information will be made available as appropriate.

We invite you to keep our campus in your prayers as we move through this difficult time for the university.

UPDATE 6/13/11: It’s been confirmed from multiple sources that these resignations have nothing to do with the biology department. LSU has not yet given a reason for the resignations.

UPDATE 6/17/11: Beach and Kaatz are both still employed at La Sierra University as tenured faculty. Bradley, Beach, and Kaatz were all at-will employees in the positions they resigned from.

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466 thoughts on “[6/17/11 UPDATE] Two administrators, one biology professor, and one board member resign

  1. @BobRyan:

    The problem for any believer is to decide who has the authority to say certain Biblical regulations are now outdated. Is it now OK to eat pork since pig meat has a lower saturated fat content than beef?

    Ultitmately any believer who wishes to approach the Bible with reason and faith must decide if he is competent to extract truth or if he must rely on someone else. In either case the believer stands alone in choosing.

    The thousands of Godly caring Christians who study the Bible carefully and differ in their understanding have to be comfortable with their choice of authority. Those of course, who have never read a “Harmony of the Gospels” may never have to wonder why these “Inspired” books tell the story so differently.

    We Adventists have largely decided to let the “church’ be that authority relinquishing the advice of EGW to be individual diligence students of the WORD.

    EGW had no reluctance ot change her views based on better eviden so in my view (colored by my mother’s stories of conversations with Sr White’s long time secretary) She was a great progressive. Unfortunately we have too many leaders whose brains are hardwired to reject new beliefs even when sound evidence is provided.

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  2. Adventist&#032kid: @BobRyan: I’ve got news for you: parents don’t decide which college their kids go to. Our of my graduating class of roughly 60 students from an Adventist college, I don’t know of a single student who didn’t make his or her own choice on where to go to college. Parents are irrelevant, its the student who decides whether to go to an Adventist college or not, and which specific college to go to. Nice try though.

    Oh really? Then please explain why every SDA parent I know has tens of thousands of dollars “invested” in their kids education at SDA schools.

    I am also told that they (parents) has a lot to say where their kids go. And, with LSU being what it is, I think a lot of SDA parents will have some “second thoughts” about such a place, as far as getting a real SDA education.

    If mom and pop’s pursestrings are tied up, kiddo may NOT be going to whatever school they want.

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  3. BobRyan: David Bee, you are arguing the case about not really accepting what the Bible says in places – on this thread about the 4 resignations at LSU. Is it your claim that if we discount enough of the Bible then those resignations would not have been necessary?What is your connection between these two topics.in Christ,Bob

    Although not a direct connection, the progresive belief that some of the bible is not as “inspired” as others, or it really isn’t “inspired” has a lot to with why LSU has the problems that it has now.

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  4. @Ron Stone M.D.:

    I am sure none of our Old Testament scholars believe the pentatuch as we have it is the original work of Moses. Ezra clearly states he edited the work and internal literary evidence points to a most careful arrangement to create a truly literary result. The great commentary “The Anchor Bible” has much info.

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  5. David&#032Bee: @Ron Stone M.D.: Sad indeed that we hae lost our understanding of how “Inslpiration” works. I believe we do still officially oppose the notion that the words of the Bible were inspired. Good thing too when we discovered that the writer of Daniel did not say what was in the manuscript the King James translators had at hand. Finding older more reliable texts is exciting but sometimes disturbing. Consider haw many years the actual manuscripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls were kept secret. Someone powerful thught they were dangerous.

    Since you’re such an expert, please inform us of how “inspiration” actually works!

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  6. David&#032Bee: @BobRyan:
    What christian loving way shuld I use to kill my daughter who chose to leave the Adventist chruch? Or is that Leviticus instruction only for Jews?
    I trust you folllow the menstrual purity laws carefully then?

    You said Ellen White rejects the book of Leviticus. I point to several chapters in that book where it is undeniable that she accepted it fully – then you “switch” to the issue of civil laws that existed under a Theocracy.

    Each time we mention Lev 11 or the Sabbath to our non-SDA friends they immediately come back with the issue you mention above – regarding the civil laws in Israel that were unique under a theocracy.

    When those non-SDAs do that we usually point out that obvious fact that civil laws applicable under a theocracy – are not necessarily applicable outside of a theocracy which is one obvious reason that we accept the OT restrictions enforcing observance of the Sabbath – but oppose those same restrictions today as a violation of the separation of Church and state.

    They are only allowed under a theocracy and we won’t have one of those again – until the 2nd coming.

    ok – so that is just the already-solved part that we have been sharing with non-SDAs for over a century.

    My question for you is what are you thinking as an SDA here? I presume that you found a problem with the solution already found for that problem in our classic SDA-to-nonSDA discussions.

    What is it?

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  7. David&#032Bee: @Ron Stone M.D.: I am sure none of our Old Testament scholars believe the pentatuch as we have it is the original work of Moses. Ezra clearly states he edited the work .

    Missed the art where Ezra claims to have changed something Moses wrote.

    Text please.

    Deuteronomy 34 with the account of Moses’ death is clearly “added” but it is not a case of editing the text that Moses wrote.

    you seem to be “reaching”.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  8. David&#032Bee: @BobRyan: The problem for any believer is to decide who has the authority to say certain Biblical regulations are now outdated. Is it now OK to eat pork since pig meat has a lower saturated fat content than beef?

    That all depends on what the original authority and argument for the Lev 11 command was.

    Does Lev 11 in your Bible ever say “as long as pork has a higher fat content than beef it is unlcean for you”? Mine doesn’t.

    When I look at the actual fundamental belief dealing with unclean meat – there is no mention in the statement itself “eat whatever has lower fat content” in my copy of the 28FB. Does yours have that in it?

    If none of that is working for your suggestion above – then where in the world does it come from?

    Remember we cannot resort to an “any ol excuse will do” solution for dodging the Fundamental Beliefs.

    Here we are just appealing to some objective critical thinking to notice that you have yet to give a reason for ignoring Lev 11 that has anything to do with the initial reason we listened to Lev 11 to start with.

    David&#032Bee:
    Ultitmately any believer who wishes to approach the Bible with reason and faith must decide if he is competent to extract truth or if he must rely on someone else.

    We get that all the time from our Catholic friends – I thought we got past that part when we decided to be “Protestant”. What did I miss?

    David&#032Bee:

    In either case the believer stands alone in choosing.The thousands of Godly caring Christians who study the Bible carefully and differ in their understanding have to be comfortable with their choice of authority.

    True – but here again you have the Protestant “sola scriptura” principle for testing doctrine as opposed to “soal whatever preference you happen to have”.

    I thought we covered that ground when we decided that the Millerite 1844 date was correct and then that the IJ doctrine was correct no matter popular opinion to the contrary.

    Again – what part have I missed? We are you circling back to questions that were solved long ago?

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  9. @Ron Stone M.D.:

    Sad indeed that we hae lost our understanding of how “Inslpiration” works. I believe we do still officially oppose the notion that the words of the Bible were inspired. Good thing too when we discovered that the writer of Daniel did not say what was in the manuscript the King James translators had at hand. Finding older more reliable texts is exciting but sometimes disturbing. Consider haw many years the actual manuscripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls were kept secret. Someone powerful thught they were dangerous.

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  10. BobRyan: Interesting but it misses the point for Moses. Moses DID know what a day was and he did know what a year was. (Apparently even the Sumerians before him were well acquanted with that concept.)The “problem” with the Bible account of creation as compared to blind faith in evolutionism is NOT in the Bible’s presentation of “DNA” the problem is in its presentation of “What a DAY is”.Once we all agree to the obvious point that both Moses and the Sumerians before him knew exactly what a day and a year were – the problem for marrying the Bible to evolutionism is clear as day!No need to wander off into DNA-land before the contradiction between those two religions becomes apparent.in Christ,Bob

    Great post, Bob. The idea that bible characters were a bunch of idiotic backwaters who were clueless about the world is a standard mantra of progressives, who, of course, place themselves as examples of sophisticated, educated, wise “lords” over the bible and over us peons and serfs.

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  11. David&#032Bee: @BobRyan:
    My problem lies in turning over the decision as to which of the pre-christian rules we should keep to “church” authorities.
    As a community we decided to make drinking alcohol “bad” even though the scripture never says so, merely warning against misuse.
    [/quote]

    “Do not even LOOK at wine” is a reference to “abuse”??

    How did you manage that spin?

    The SDA community has clearly done this with regard to caffiene, cheese and spices since we no longer believe these foods lead to excessive libido and the resultant early demise Kellog thought excessive sexuality produced.
    AS individuals, we may differ with the commuinity and the SDA church has been traditionally very considerate of these variations.

    Our stand on health is abased on clear teaching in 1Corinthians. The specific health issues sighted are based on divine revelation given through the gift of prophecy. The 28 FB being as they are – I don’t see that changing any time soon.

    Hence many committed SDA do in fact disbelieve in a 6 day creation and a recent world wide flood because

    Hence? “Cheese and sugar… hence many committed SDAs do in fact disbelieve in a 6 day creation “??

    That is a nonsequitter.

    they value science over myths

    All of our atheist friends make that claim.

    We keep pointing out to them that the Bible is not myth.

    That we base (and test) our doctrines “sola scriptura”.

    That bending the bible to meet the dictats of atheist evolutionist doctrines on origins is a resort to eisegesis that Bible students are not inclined to take.

    That birds do not in fact come from reptiles.

    That there is no science at all saying that an all powerful God did not create the world in 6 days – such notions are beyond science’s ability to prove or disprove.

    That as 3SG 90-94 states the Theistic Evolutionist POV is the worst form of infidelity – because it is infidelity in disguise.

    Hint: at no point has SDA doctrine insisted that Scripture is nothing more than myth.

    But Dawkins asserts that point all the time.

    To each his own.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  12. Adventist&#032kid: @Ron Stone M.D.: Fair enough. Care to explain why most of the sites to help select colleges are aimed at students, not parents? Do parents go set up profiles at Zinch or any of the other sites?I just graduated from high school, got courted by a huge number of colleges thanks to scoring in the top 3% on the SAT, a great GPA and extensive extracurriculars. Note that they courted me not parents.

    They may be “courting” you, but SDA (not necessarily public schools) also know that parents should be comfortable with the reputation of the school.

    LSU knows that these embarrassing events are going to be more important to “explain” to adult parents, alumni, and others.

    Don’t think so. Then listen to the tape!

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  13. David&#032Bee: I would be much more comforted by the notion of sola scriptura if I had any defensible reason to know exactly which words in which manuscript by which authors were “inspired”. I should also need to know if the inspiration was verbal as in the decalogue of Exodus 20 or did “the spirit of the Lord came upon me” type of inspiration.

    I thank you for being so transparent about your confusion on that point.

    I believe it is the logical point to which the TE position will eventually lead Christians that choose to go down that road.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  14. @BobRyan:

    You appear to be accepting the belief (one which absolves you from any responsibility) that what ever version of the Bible the SDA chrch endorses is by definition “inspired” and contradictions with the King James are resolved by the (Non SDA transltors) of later versions. Or should we discard all versions except the New Andrews study bible?

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  15. @BobRyan:

    I guess we must find the will to trust that the Bishops in Alexadria 1600 years ago were not motivated by any political considerations and that a majority vote is adequate to ensure the authority of the books chosen for the canon. Unfortunate then that many of the books they ordered burned were discovered in the 20th century. At least we can now read some of the gospels they rejected.

    I am just not able to let those ancient Bishops define truth for me.

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  16. David Bee’s example above is to demonstrate the “surrender first” solution of Bible interpretation and acceptance.

    But the SDA pastor and doctoral student I mentioned in that previous post – demonstrates the “stand and be counted” solution that seeks to refute the empty guesswork and hollow accusations of people like Ehrman – with actual fact.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  17. Bob&#032Orrick: I can not understand how any thinking and knowledgeable person could believe that evolution is a science. It is a religion and this may be shown in five short sentences.

    Good points Bob Orrick – !

    Atheist evolutionist Collin Patterson – British Museum of Natural History. Giving a talk at the American Museum of Natural hist –

    Patterson said:
    “…Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you’ve experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that’s true of me, and I think it’s true of a good many of you in here…

    “… Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to convey anti-knowledge , apparent knowledge which is actually harmful to systematics…”

    That some “SDAS” now want to claim to be “more in the dark” on this point than an atheist evolutionist – is beyond me…

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  18. David Bee: “How do you suppose grape juice was protected from fermentation in Bible times? If it spent more than a couple of days in the wineskin it began to ferment, you can be sure.”

    Drying fruit was a way to do it. Drying out grapes and rehydrating the raisins made fresh wine.
    God bless,

    Rich

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  19. I can not understand how any thinking and knowledgeable person could believe that evolution is a science. It is a religion and this may be shown in five short sentences.
    1. It is known that DNA contains coded information.
    2. There is no known naturalistic mechanism for the origination of information.
    3. The evolutionist must believe by faith that such a mechanism exists or has existed.
    4. Now faith is a religious concept.
    5. Therefore the belief in evolution is a religious belief.

    But we do know one way by which information is originated. Information is originated by intelligent beings.

    For David Bee: I own and have read Richard Dawkins’ book “The Blind Watchmaker” along with several similar books by other evolutionists. Their arguments are pathetic, they tell imaginary stores about how evolution works, and they avoid the the tough issues, such as irreducible complexity and that evolution occurs in the genotype, but survival occurs in the phenotype, etc.

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  20. David&#032Bee: @BobRyan:
    Were the purity and menstruation laws applicable only in a theocracy. Orthodox Jews today still observe them as they wait for Messiah.

    What is your point? That you want to toss out Lev 11? Lev 18? Lev 19:18?

    That you found something in Ellen White’s writings that suggest your argument above is valid excuse for ignoring scripture?

    At some point accepting the text of scripture goes beyond preference.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  21. David&#032Bee: DANIEL’S PROPHEICES PROVEN TRUE? SEEMS IF THAT WERE SO, ALL BIBLE STUDENTS MIGHT AGREE ON THEIR MEANING.

    We get that a lot from our non-SDA friends when we point out that the Bible specifies clearly that the 7th day is the Sabbath – not the first day.

    “Well if that was true then everyone would be keeping the 7th day Sabbath instead of the first” say some.

    Your arguments appear to be some of the oldest debunked versions that we have.

    Surely you have found that to be so.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  22. @BobRyan:

    BobRyanJuly 9, 2011 at 7:14 pm

    “And finally there is the case where the ice-core theory was “tested” in Greenland by real life measurement against known data.

    It was in this area, 17 miles off the east coast of Greenland, that Bob Cardin and other members of his squadron had to ditch their six P-38’s and two B-17’s when they ran out of gas in 1942 – the height of WWII. Many years later, in 1981, several members of this original squad decided to see if they could recover their aircraft.

    They flew back to the spot in Greenland where they thought they would find their planes buried under a few feet of snow. To their surprise, there was nothing there. Not even metal detectors found anything. After many years of searching, with better detection equipment, they finally found the airplanes in 1988 three miles from their original location and under approximately 260 feet of ice! They went on to actually recovered one of them (“Glacier Girl” – a P38), which was eventually restored to her former glory.

    What is most interesting about this story, at least for the purposes of this discussion, is the depth at which the planes were found (as well as the speed which the glacier moved). It took only 46 years to bury the planes in over 260 feet (~80 meters) of ice and move them some 3 miles from their original location. This translates into a little over 5 ½ feet (~1.7 meters) of ice or around 17 feet (~5 meters) of compact snow per year and about 100 meters of movement per year.

    In a telephone interview, Bob Cardin was asked how many layers of ice were above the recovered airplane. He responded by saying, “Oh, there were many hundreds of layers of ice above the airplane.” When told that each layer was supposed to represent one year of time, Bob said, “That is impossible! Each of those layers is a different warm spell – warm, cold, warm, cold, warm, cold.”

    Also, the planes did not sink in the ice over time as some have suggested. Their density was less than the ice or snow since they were not filled with the snow, but remained hollow. They were in fact buried by the annual snowfall over the course of almost 50 years.”

    *********
    This is really amazing! I wish I had this information a few weeks ago when the Ice Cores topic was discussed in Sabbath School. Since you did not reference this information, I took the time to Google this and was able to verify the authenticity of it. I found several sources confirming this. Here is one of them:

    http://evolutionfacts.com/New-material/frozen_planes.htm

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  23. Deciphering ice ring layers becomes a problem after the first clearly distinguishable layers disappear under pressure. The layers in the upper area of a core can be counted – and in some cases it can be shown at the upper levels that there is one layer in a year. But when you go deeper down into the core, the layers will thin out as a result of high pressure and ice flow, making countable layers impossible.

    It is not only possible but also likely for various large snowstorms and/or snowdrifts to lay down multiple layers in a given year. Very short-term oscillations representing as little as a day or two do show up as variables in the layers of ice. Storms can vary in their temperature patterns. They can also last a few hours to several days, weeks, or even months. Of course, these storms and other anomalous weather patterns might present a bit of a problem for the uniformitarian paradigm.

    And finally there is the case where the ice-core theory was “tested” in Greenland by real life measurement against known data.

    It was in this area, 17 miles off the east coast of Greenland, that Bob Cardin and other members of his squadron had to ditch their six P-38’s and two B-17’s when they ran out of gas in 1942 – the height of WWII. Many years later, in 1981, several members of this original squad decided to see if they could recover their aircraft. They flew back to the spot in Greenland where they thought they would find their planes buried under a few feet of snow. To their surprise, there was nothing there. Not even metal detectors found anything. After many years of searching, with better detection equipment, they finally found the airplanes in 1988 three miles from their original location and under approximately 260 feet of ice! They went on to actually recovered one of them (“Glacier Girl” – a P38), which was eventually restored to her former glory.

    What is most interesting about this story, at least for the purposes of this discussion, is the depth at which the planes were found (as well as the speed which the glacier moved). It took only 46 years to bury the planes in over 260 feet (~80 meters) of ice and move them some 3 miles from their original location. This translates into a little over 5 ½ feet (~1.7 meters) of ice or around 17 feet (~5 meters) of compact snow per year and about 100 meters of movement per year. In a telephone interview, Bob Cardin was asked how many layers of ice were above the recovered airplane. He responded by saying, “Oh, there were many hundreds of layers of ice above the airplane.” When told that each layer was supposed to represent one year of time, Bob said, “That is impossible! Each of those layers is a different warm spell – warm, cold, warm, cold, warm, cold.”

    Also, the planes did not sink in the ice over time as some have suggested. Their density was less than the ice or snow since they were not filled with the snow, but remained hollow. They were in fact buried by the annual snowfall over the course of almost 50 years.

    As is normally the case with evolutionist storytelling (as in the case of Darwin’s “protoplasm” making up the inner working of the cell) – the less they know – the more certain they are of the realiability in their simplistic schemes of guesswork.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  24. Re the Greenland planes. How quick the pseudo SDAs are to find an explanation that defends the evolutionary view, yet how quickly they belittle real SDAs that find explanations that defend the Bible view.

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  25. It’s amazing how otherwise educated adults give in to, and actually believe in the false promises and other BS they are fed at church and through these websites. A pure fabrication.
    Has anyone here attempted verification of any of these religious claims? It’s very amusing how deep the discussions can go, investigating only inside the beliefs and referring to the bible and other supporting documents ONLY. The only thing proven here is that it’s a prime example of religious dogma at work.
    Constantly searching for answers to and through fabricated beliefs. Pathetic.

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  26. Nic&#032Samojluk: In a telephone interview, Bob Cardin was asked how many layers of ice were above the recovered airplane. He responded by saying, “Oh, there were many hundreds of layers of ice above the airplane.” When told that each layer was supposed to represent one year of time, Bob said, “That is impossible! Each of those layers is a different warm spell – warm, cold, warm, cold, warm, cold.”
    Also, the planes did not sink in the ice over time as some have suggested. Their density was less than the ice or snow since they were not filled with the snow, but remained hollow. They were in fact buried by the annual snowfall over the course of almost 50 years.”
    *********
    This is really amazing! I wish I had this information a few weeks ago when the Ice Cores topic was discussed in Sabbath School. Since you did not reference this information, I took the time to Google this and was able to verify the authenticity of it. I found several sources confirming this. Here is one of them:
    http://evolutionfacts.com/New-material/frozen_planes.htm

    Sadly some of our evol-promoters have no end of data that they are willing to ignore when it comes to putting the theory to the test.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  27. Ervin&#032Taylor: Some myths never die, they just are posted permanently on young earth/young life creationist web sites.
    The “Greenland-Snow-Over-the-Airplanes Myth” conveniently ignores the fact that the airplanes landed near the Greenland coast at a location on a very active glacier where it is well-known that during the summer, the surface gets repeatedly melted. These “ice layers” reported are not the same type as found at the locations in the interior of Greenland where ice cores are taken.

    The surrender-first evol myths conveniently ignore the high degree of volcanic activity that would have been present at and after the flood over a period of a 1000 years and the fact that the ice age reduced the habbitable part of the earth to a much more narrow band near the equator than we have today.

    Oh well – when was it ever the case that the T.E. “evol-first” solution in terms of atheist views on orgins as well as the “surrend-first” thinking when it comes to creation as God describes it – was open to all the apparent facts and observations in history?

    It is precisely because the evols will not allow them to “follow the data where it leads” that some of them reject the glaringly obvious I.D. element observed in nature.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  28. @BobRyan:

    DANIEL’S PROPHEICES PROVEN TRUE? SEEMS IF THAT WERE SO, ALL BIBLE STUDENTS MIGHT AGREE ON THEIR MEANING. FOR SOME REASON ADVENTIST TEACHINGS SEEM TO BE DIFFICULT TO “SELL” TO MOST SCHOLARS. (Sorry, didn’t notice I was in all caps, didn’t mean to shout.)

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  29. Some myths never die, they just are posted permanently on young earth/young life creationist web sites.

    The “Greenland-Snow-Over-the-Airplanes Myth” conveniently ignores the fact that the airplanes landed near the Greenland coast at a location on a very active glacier where it is well-known that during the summer, the surface gets repeatedly melted. These “ice layers” reported are not the same type as found at the locations in the interior of Greenland where ice cores are taken. Annual layers are identified and counted by looking at a number of proxy indicators that show that they are annual such as visible dust layers and differing electrical conductivity.

    If one wishes to read the facts about the evidence that cores record tens of thousands of years of snow accumulation and in some locations back more than 100,000 years, there are a number of reputable sources to consult.

    Young earth/Young life creationism sites are the last place to look for scientifically credible information.

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  30. David&#032Bee:
    @Rich Constantinescu:

    However, Jesus spoke of bursting wineskins not rehydrations.

    The new wineskins were sealed strong with pitch to resist fermentation. The fermentation’s explosive power would have burst the new skin as easily as the old skin. The old simply would have let in the yeast spores and caused an explosion. The expansive pressure of fermentation would burst new skins as easily as old skins. Raisins was “a way to do it”. Other methods of preserving juice besides raisins are documented such as sulfur or water extraction making syrup. (Prov. 20:1).
    God bless,

    Rich

    “It is said, “The new skin-bottles of the ancients allowed the clastic gases of the fermenting liquid to expand them, and therefore they did not burst and spill the wine.”

    “This is a delusion, for the strongest hide of hog or ox, formed into a bottle and filled with grape-juice that had begun to ferment, would, if closed up, be burst asunder as with imprisoned steam ; and if not closed, then the old bottle would run no risk of rending.* A cubic inch of sugar, transformed into carbonic acid gas, occupies a space of probably forty times as much.”

    “* ‘The force of fermenting wine is very great, being able, if closely stopped up, to burst through the strongest cask.” (Chambers’s Cyclopedia, art. * Wine/ 1750.) … See further, Works of Dr Lees, ii. p. 158, and elsewhere.’
    Temperance Bible Commentary, Lees and Burns

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  31. This commentary posted at Spectrum reflects the Christianity and Spirit of Christ that motivates me:

    Patti Cottrell Grant – Wed, 06/15/2011 – 09:44

    Once again it appears that vengeful and short-sighted GC leadership has carelessly squandered a priceless opportunity to present to the world a true picture of how God deals lovingly with his all-too-human children. Instead of offering these men the opportunity for forgiveness and redemption they were blindsided and backed into a corner and threatened with shame if they did not resign immediately. No chance to repent, no chance to learn from this Kafkaesque play, no chance to salvage decades of sacrificial service lovingly given to the gospel of Christ. Just Wham! Off With Their Heads! Is this what Jesus would do?

    What incalculable damage has been done to the Gospel of Christ. Not by the four friends who were inadvertently recorded and exposed against their will but by men in positions of power who chose to execute those dedicated servants with the harshest, most draconian punishment available.

    What possible glimpse of the Savior does this slap down present to the world?” Where is the invitation to others to seek forgiveness and redemption, and inclusion in the family of God? The summary execution of these men has done incalculable damage to a church that ironically claims to be chosen of God but that offered no opportunity whatsoever for change and growth.

    It is time for truly courageous GC leadership–there must be some somewhere–to begin to repair the very public damage to the world church that it has wrought. Work with these men, extend to them the forgiveness and opportunity for redemption that God has promised each of us, and allow them to go back to the work they love. It is never too late to do the Right Thing.

    Patti Cottrell Grant

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  32. Shane&#032Hilde: the reality is these men broke their contract and said some things they shouldn’t have.

    I didn’t hear anything having to do with an academic contract I’ve ever seen–and I’ve signed my fair share.

    Shane&#032Hilde: these men were clearly undermining the church’s beliefs and probably more if the recording sees the light of day.

    I didn’t hear any of this, either. The conversation was largely about the comments made by and positions held by various people and accrediting organizations, including those they agreed with and those they disagreed with. Unfortunately, they made light of a few individuals, just as happens right here at Educate Truth.

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  33. @Jeff: It’s job! The sanctimonious tone I hear from most at Spectrum is unnecessary. All of us can point at others who have been un-Christian, but the reality is these men broke their contract and said some things they shouldn’t have.

    It’s terrible thing to lose one’s job, especially these days, but these men were clearly undermining the church’s beliefs and probably more if the recording sees the light of day.

    Alcohol is a big deal. Most who think its trivial that they were fired over it obviously don’t have a problem with drinking alcohol.

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  34. Professor&#032Kent: The most objectionable material in the recording was some negative comments about certain individuals–but these were no more malicious than many of the comments posted here by Educate Truth supporters.

    If professor kent is correct (I cannot know with certainty) then it seems to me the conversation was used as a threat to force the resignations and, the alcohol rather than the conversation provided the substance for the firings. This is consistent with what Spectrum is reporting.

    I also read this from someone at Spectrum:

    Jesus drank wine, said a few things that offended others, and certainly criticised administrators. He was not even a vegetarian! But was never asked to “resign”…

    Someone then responded to this by pointing out that Jesus was killed instead of being asked to resign.

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  35. I don’t recall hearing anything remotely resembling something akin to “we are going to believe in and teach theistic evolution no matter what the Church has to say.” In fact, I don’t think I could tell you, from the conversation, what the position was on this issue for ANY of the conversants.

    You guys are WAY too deep into gossip. It’s unseemly and ungodly.

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  36. David Bee, you are arguing the case about not really accepting what the Bible says in places – on this thread about the 4 resignations at LSU. Is it your claim that if we discount enough of the Bible then those resignations would not have been necessary?

    What is your connection between these two topics.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  37. David&#032Bee: @Shayne Vincent: I am not capable of imagining that Ezra and his editors were capable of formulating modern knowledge of astronomy and geography in ways valuable to his readers 2600 years ago.Not sure how he would have expailned DNA, genetics, bacteria to an Israel of 600 BC, even one exposed to the unversity of Bablyon’s pofessors.

    Interesting but it misses the point for Moses.

    Moses DID know what a day was and he did know what a year was. (Apparently even the Sumerians before him were well acquanted with that concept.)

    The “problem” with the Bible account of creation as compared to blind faith in evolutionism is NOT in the Bible’s presentation of “DNA” the problem is in its presentation of “What a DAY is”.

    Once we all agree to the obvious point that both Moses and the Sumerians before him knew exactly what a day and a year were – the problem for marrying the Bible to evolutionism is clear as day!

    No need to wander off into DNA-land before the contradiction between those two religions becomes apparent.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  38. Ron&#032Stone&#032M&#046D&#046: The progressive mantra that nothing is salvational is also a way Bradley could get off. Since nothing really matters, who cares about teaching “evolution as fact” boozing it up, and discussing a “mutiny” against the SDA Church by LSU.

    I note that some people over at the “big left tent” are in effect arguing that to be employed at LSU is to be saved – and to resign is to be “lost”. It is as if every saved person has the right to be employed at LSU and denying them that right is to claim that they are lost.

    I find that entire line of reasoning rather odd.

    But more to the point – Bonnie Dweyer’s article over there casts a lot of doubt on whether any SDA parent would want their student taught by, or a school managed by such character.

    I believe that some of our “progressive” friends are so bent on compromise with the world that they have totally missed the point of view that most SDA parents are considering when deciding where to send their students. Hopefully those progressives will get a clue pretty soon before they run LSU entirely in the ground all the while imagining that they are supporting LSU.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  39. @Ron Stone M.D.:

    Amazing that you would beliee I thought Ezra and com;any were uninformed. In fact I made it clear they had likely been exposed to the learning of or perhaps even trained at the U of Babylon.

    Surely he had access to the best scientific minds available. It is just that truth can’t proceed beyond the ability of the hearer to understand. I believe Paul spoke of this.

    What was science to Ezra and his editors was no longer all true in Christ’s day as knowledge continued to increase. Paul had access to the more advanced science of the first century being able to read both Greek and Latin as well as the languages of Israel. Not that the Babylonians didn’t also have great astronomic knowledge.

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  40. So, these 4 got together and were discussing whether LSU should “secede” from SDA control?

    If so, given the positions these guys were in, it sounds like a great idea they were “fired.”

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  41. David&#032Read: The reason for the firings has come out at Spectrum: the four were secretly taped having a conversation to the effect (according to one 4th hand report) that LSU would be better off separated from the SDA Church. Bradley was having an alcoholic beverage during this conversation.

    Dave, Since when is advocating “separation” from the ideas of the SDA Church and “boozing it up” a reason for firing someone from the SDA Church?!

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  42. This is not an issue about Bradley crusading for alcohol and suggesting that LSU leave the SDA fold if a more progressive stand on drinking is not adopted. Drinking was not the issue it was the convenient side issue. It is a technicality. Bob

    You’re probably right, Bob. However, this would be an ironic ending to Bradley, if it were true. Getting a guy canned because of a “light” Brewskie or “small” tonic and gin instead of the actual issue he’s being accused of would indeed be a major accomplishment, similar to Capone’s conviction for “tax evasion” or OJ getting convicted for what he did in Las Vegas to try to get his “stuff” back!

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  43. David&#032Bee: Isn’t the recordimg of a private coversation without documented permissin a felony under federal law?

    So, who’s gonna sue? And, who are they gonna sue? If it goes to a trial, more information will be forthcoming about how, when, where, and maybe why the conversation happened.

    Maybe those involved won’t want to “sue” anybody?

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  44. Penalties under federal law for recording conversation without consent
    by Lewis Gainor on November 23, 2010

    Secretly recording a conversation can constitute a criminal offense under federal law. Under Title 18, Section 2511 of the United States Code, it is a felony to record a conversation unless at least one party to the conversation consents. The crime is called eavesdropping, and a person found guilty can be sentenced to 5 years in prison and fined $250,000.

    The statute reaches beyond conversations. It is against the law to use any device to intercept wire, oral, or electronic communications, as well. For example, recording a phone conversation or copying computer data such as email is eavesdropping, and subject to criminal penalties.

    18 USC 2511 applies to face-to-face conversations, telephone conversations (including cell phones), email, instant messaging, text messages, phone records, voicemail, data saved on a server, and any other electronic communication.

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  45. BTW, Ervin Taylor at AToday is reporting that they have a copy of the recording and are having it transcribed. but he’s indicating that they will report on what the church officials said, not on what the resigning staff and board member said.

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  46. Shane&#032Hilde: All this legal talk etc. is a bunch of hot air. I will be extremely surprised if anything legal comes of this.

    I agree with you Shane. Lots of hot air and no real substance. My bet is nothing is actually done and nobody goes to the “big house.”

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  47. David&#032Bee: A federal judge would likely intervene if firing wasbased on a feloniously obtain recording.

    So. let’s see if any “federal judge” intervenes and if anyone is arrested, prosecuted, and convicted. My guess is a big NO! But, I’m not a lawyer.

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  48. If the church could come to agreement on what is Bible truth this controversy could go away. If they had not removed the introductory statements about the doctrine of inspiration to the first edition of Great Controversy (available on the White estate website) we would still be able to study the Bible using the historical and literary tools I was given as a ministerial student at AU in 1957. Maybe if we had elected a GC president with actual training in Biblical studies it would have helped.

    Until we can let our prophet speak to her age and her message grow along with the evidence as she hoped we are doomed to the fundametalism of Aimie Semple McPherson.

    No religion faculty (my major field) member that I knew in 1961 believed in either a literal creation week or a <10,000 year old earth. What a pity that Robert Pierson (a fine Godly man) was so afraid of scholarly research.

    Incidentally those of you who would like to read deeply spiritual commentaries on evolution as the finest and truest expressin of God&#039s loving nature, try Profesor John Haught&#039s writings.

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  49. @Shane Hilde:

    Here is a summary of the law

    California Wiretapping Law
    California’s wiretapping law is a “two-party consent” law. California makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation. See Cal. Penal Code § 632. The statute applies to “confidential communications” — i.e., conversations in which one of the parties has an objectively reasonable expectation that no one is listening in or overhearing the conversation. See Flanagan v. Flanagan, 41 P.3d 575, 576-77, 578-82 (Cal. 2002). A California appellate court has ruled that this statute applies to the use of hidden video cameras to record conversations as well. See California v. Gibbons, 215 Cal. App. 3d 1204 (Cal Ct. App. 1989).

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  50. I predicted there would be some “fall guys” taking the blame. So, we now have some “fall guys” gone, but when are the real culprits going to get the boot–Wisbey, Graham, te actual Biol. Profs,etc?

    My guess is never!

    Did Graham say WHY these people were shouldering the blame?

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  51. Spectrum is claiming that LSU is claiming that the resignations have nothiing to do with the biology conflict. This is an email that was allegedly sent to all the faculty at LSU:

    Last night you received notification of the resignations of four campus leaders. Already we have heard reports of a great deal of speculation taking place on campus and on the internet.

    Please understand these resignations have no connection to the biology controversy. There is also no connection with students.

    La Sierra University’s President and Provost learned of the situation Friday afternoon. Since then, the administration continues to deal with the matter fully in accordance with internal University policies and our commitments as a Seventh-day Adventist University.

    Further information will be made available as appropriate.

    University administration requests that as you speak with students, you communicate the above information. Please note, too, that university policies are being carefully followed. The university is committed to ensuring that students have a successful final week and an outstanding graduation weekend.

    We encourage each of you to keep our campus family and our students in your prayers.

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  52. I have now listened to the tape and I was absolutely stunned. The conversation was, on the whole, remarkably benign; I can’t figure out how the men were manipulated to resign.

    The SPECTRUM article summarized the conversation accurately: there were a few scatological terms, I picked up one very general reference to wine (perhaps I missed something), and there was a faint smattering of derogatory comments about specific individuals (mostly directed toward one Church official). I didn’t hear any talk of moving LSU away from the SDA Church. Virtually all of the conversation dealt with the preceding Blackmer-Jackson meeting with LSU faculty and the heavy-handed measures the Church has taken toward LSU in light of the evolution controversy (measures which some folks here continue to deny have been taken, which in turn prompts unending ad hominen attacks on individual LSU and Church administrators).

    I socialize with many SDAs, non-SDA Christians, and non-Christians, and I have to say the conversation closely resembled a very normal conversation among very ordinary (albeit frustrated) SDAs. The vulgar language I hear so much of from my non-Christian friends and colleagues was almost completely lacking from this particular conversation. In all fairness to this foursome, someone needs to make this clear.

    There is no question in my mind that the requested resignations had everything to do with the creation-evolution controversy stirred up by Educate Truth. I was hoping otherwise, but no one listening to the conversation is likely to conclude any differently. If these men do not take legal action against their employer and/or the Union for being forced to resign with the threat of releasing the recording of a private conversation against their will, I suspect it would only be in a good will effort to stem the war that has spun completely out of control (thank you, Educate Truth).

    This war needs to stop. Both sides need to end the rhetoric and let things settle down. This is a victory only for Satan’s cause.

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  53. No religion faculty (my major field) member that I knew in 1961 believed in either a literal creation week or a <10,000 year old earth.

    So, where did you graduate from? Who were these guys and gals? Care to name some and where they are from or where they are now?

    I started attending the SDA Church is 1960. From that time until now, virtually all the members and clergy have seemed to promote a “literal” creation story.

    How about others?

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  54. Shayne&#032Vincent: If you want to believe in evolution, then go to a State university. This is a very simple issue and has nothing to do with ignorance and everything to do with integrity.

    I’m not sure what “believing” in evolution has to do with this. It is important for biology students to know the particulars of evolutionary theory in their own field. Whether they believe in it or not, is another matter altogether.

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  55. Casey:
    That’s garbage and you know it Shane. Although I don’t expect someone with your lack of integrity to admit it. I know for a fact that there is NO reason to fire Gary Bradley other than his support of science being attacked by ignorant people like you who made waves in the church and at LSU. They are willing to lose their WASC accreditation before they lose their SDA accreditation so they responded to the likes of you and your cult. PERIOD.

    Please realize that it is entirely impossible for you to “know for a fact” that there is no other reason, unless you have direct evidence demonstrating what the reason actually is.

    If you do have such evidence, please present it to us, or explain why you can’t.

    If you do not have or have not seen such evidence, then your choice to believe that there could not possibly be any other reason is illogical.

    We must be careful not to let our emotions drive our analysis of situations, circumstances, and personalities.

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  56. David&#032Read: BTW, Ervin Taylor at AToday is reporting that they have a copy of the recording and are having it transcribed. but he’s indicating that they will report on what the church officials said, not on what the resigning staff and board member said.

    Is Erv willing to negotiate? I’ve been saving up my pennies.

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  57. David&#032Read: New story up at Spectrum says that one of the four recorded a meeting with his cell phone, then left the recorder running at a private after-meeting at someone’s house where alcohol was served. The conversation included foul language, derogatory comments, and jokes about drinking.

    Does anyone actually have the recording? Where can we get a copy?

    You know it’s got to be very embarrassing, otherwise they would not have “resigned” but would have fought these charges.

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  58. Professor&#032Kent: I have listened to the “evidence” so I am presenting it to you right now. The most objectionable material in the recording was some negative comments about certain individuals–but these were no more malicious than many of the comments posted here by Educate Truth supporters. If it’s okay for the defenders of conservative Adventism to make negative comments about others here, in a very public format, then why should employees be fired for doing so in the privacy of their own home.Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy.

    How about all of us listening to it and forming our own opinion bad it is?

    If it’s not so bad, why not? Hypocrisy, hypocrisy, hypocrisy!

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  59. Marilyn&#032Bauer:
    I stand in support of Educate Truth and its efforts to maintain integrity on an SDA campus of higher education. “Once to every man and nation (university) comes the moment to decide, in the strife of truth and falsehood, for the good or evil side.”Our church history shows that we have had to watch church institutions (Battle Creek San and Hospital) leave the sisterhood of institutions due to false teachings by its leadership. We should not be surprised if the cost of fidelity to truth has a price. Politically, we know that freedom has a price. Spiritually, fidelity to truth has a price.

    I regret that Shane is coming under attack for having the courage to keep the light burning for doctrinal truth in Adventist education. We have long purported the idea of integration of faith and learning. Why would we want to excuse a science department who moves away from the “faith” aspect of its discipline?

    All those who decide to live a Biblically faithful life shall suffer persecution.

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  60. By the way, does anyone know whether Beach and Kaatz are still employed at LSU as faculty (teaching)? They each had administrative positions at La Sierra. Beach was a Dean, at-will employee, and Kaatz was VP, an at-will employee, but both of them them were tenured faculty. Beach teaches math and Kaatz teaches music, so if that’s all true they’re still employed at LSU as faculty and they lost their administrative positions and probably a pay dock.

    So really the only person who lost his job was Bradley, and he was also an at-will employee planning to retire any year now. He still has his pension etc. I’m guessing.

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  61. BobRyan: I note that some people over at the “big left tent” are in effect arguing that to be employed at LSU is to be saved – and to resign is to be “lost”. It is as if every saved person has the right to be employed at LSU and denying them that right is to claim that they are lost.in Christ,Bob

    That type of reasoning is very common at Spectrum and AT. “Oh, my! Look at what the big, bad, SDA Church did to so-and so! Now they’re kicked out of heaven.”

    As if, as you stated, people have some sort of “right” to employment by the SDA Church, especially those tearing down our bible-based beliefs.

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  62. David&#032Bee: @BobRyan: Of course the Romman Catholic church fouond no difficulty with the Bible and evolution, officaily proclaiming that evolution was how God created the universe. I believe this teaching became official around 1996 or so.

    I agree the RCC does embrace evolution – and praying to the dead.

    What is your point on that?

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  63. Shane&#032Hilde: By the way, does anyone know whether Beach and Kaatz are still employed at LSU as faculty (teaching)? They each had administrative positions at La Sierra. Beach was a Dean, at-will employee, and Kaatz was VP, an at-will employee, but both of them them were tenured faculty. Beach teaches math and Kaatz teaches music, so if that’s all true they’re still employed at LSU as faculty and they lost their administrative positions and probably a pay dock.So really the only person who lost his job was Bradley, and he was also an at-will employee planning to retire any year now. He still has his pension etc. I’m guessing.

    Beach and Kaatz are not listed on the faculty roster, just on the administrative list. If that means anything.

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  64. @ David Bee

    Reference: “ice rings”.

    I have no doubt that “ice rings” may be fairly accurately counted. But how is it known that one “ice ring” represents one year? Just because there seems to be one “ring” currently deposited per year, does that justify the belief that the current rate has been consistent for 400,000 years? Could one imagine conditions that would deposit multiple “rings” per year? I certainly can.

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  65. David Read

    In my comment on DNA containing information, I had wished to restrict my point to the “origination” of information, not to the copying, addition to, deletion from, rearranging, or other manipulation of existing information.

    Also I would submit the we have “information” only if it is possible to read (or decoded) it, otherwise it is noise or random “characters”. As you pointed out, having “meaning ” is the key.

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  66. @BobRyan:

    My problem lies in turning over the decision as to which of the pre-christian rules we should keep to “church” authorities.

    As a community we decided to make drinking alcohol “bad” even though the scripture never says so, merely warning against misuse.

    This is a valid role of church as community. Of course the community can change such rules at will. Hopefully based on adequate evidence. The SDA community has clearly done this with regard to caffiene, cheese and spices since we no longer believe these foods lead to excessive libido and the resultant early demise Kellog thought excessive sexuality produced.

    AS individuals, we may differ with the commuinity and the SDA church has been traditionally very considerate of these variations. Hence many committed SDA do in fact disbelieve in a 6 day cration and a recent world wide flood because they value science over myths that go back to dawn of writing. Even though the glorious Genesis stories (myths) of creation and the fall inform of God’s love in a particularly powerful way.

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  67. @Faith:

    Happily I am not a minister. I completed the SDA ministerial course in a time (late 50’s) when we were taught that the days of Genesis 1 were long eons not literal days. I found that my real interest in ministry was the high I got from arousing an emotional response in the congregation. Realizing this was an invalid reason, I never became a church employee.

    Since our church and EGW deny officially that the Bible we have is “verbally inspired”, I am puzzled by your seeming insistence on just that belief.

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  68. @BobRyan:

    Just dealing with the issue of EGW’s understanding of inspiration. SDA church clearly teaches that the words of the Bible are not inspired. This avoids the uproar of trying to decide which manuscript or translation is closest to the original “word”. Because language and useage (consider how few uf us speak in the language of the KJV) change over time, scholars can determin approximately when a particular manuscript was written or edited. When EZRA and compnay edited the Bible they used current literary styles and carefully arranged the stories. For example, the first ten books of the Hebrew Bible each have one but only one story of the breaking of one of he ten commandments.

    The stories follow the order of the commandments. Actually I think there are only 9 stories as one commandments is left out for reasons I no longer recall.

    Some of Moses’ original words may well be in the pentatech. Comparisons of the Bible manuscripts available with contemporary literature helps to determine how ancient the literary style and language is. This is where archeology and language studies are so helpful.

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  69. Shane&#032Hilde: @Ron Stone M.D.: That’s what my understanding.

    If that is true, and I having listened to the recordings and made notes, I think the recording should be made public, so the SDA Church, the LSU constituency, including parents of students, and all others be made aware of what kind of characters we have running LSU and teaching our students.

    The statements on this recording are definitely not “benign” or “harmless” in any way!

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  70. Shane&#032Hilde: I don’t think they would have changed the website listings that fast. Their resignation was only from their administrative positions.

    Are you telling me they are still going to teach at LSU?! Has this been addressed by LSU or anyone else?

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  71. @Ron Stone M.D.:
    Continue to believe that if you want. Not a scientific sample to say the least, but I just asked roughly 80 high school graduates from this year whether they chose which school they were going to or if their parents did. I didn’t even get ten who said their parents limited their choices or prevented them from going to their first choice.

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