[6/17/11 UPDATE] Two administrators, one biology professor, and one board member resign

Educate Truth shares the following article from Spectrum as a service to readers.

“Two administrators, one professor, and one board member were asked to resign on Friday,” according to Spectrum blog editor Alexander Carpenter.

The president and the provost of La Sierra University regret to announce the resignations of four members of our university family.

On Friday, June 10, Board Chair Ricardo Graham requested the resignations of Dr. Jeff Kaatz from his position as Vice President for University Advancement, Dr. Jim Beach from his position as Dean of the College of Arts & Sciences, Dr. Gary Bradley from his part-time faculty position in the Biology Department, and Mr. Lenny Darnell from the Board of Trustees.

These resignations have been accepted and are effective immediately. Campus administration is unable, at this time, to offer any additional details regarding the decisions of these individuals. Further information will be made available as appropriate.

We invite you to keep our campus in your prayers as we move through this difficult time for the university.

UPDATE 6/13/11: It’s been confirmed from multiple sources that these resignations have nothing to do with the biology department. LSU has not yet given a reason for the resignations.

UPDATE 6/17/11: Beach and Kaatz are both still employed at La Sierra University as tenured faculty. Bradley, Beach, and Kaatz were all at-will employees in the positions they resigned from.

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466 thoughts on “[6/17/11 UPDATE] Two administrators, one biology professor, and one board member resign

  1. @BobRyan:

    Really, The Bible is true because it says so? A circular argument cannot produce a valid result in any logical system.

    We had best value the Bible because of the kind of people following its’ teaching produces. Finding some way to discount the genocidal activites of Joshua, of course!

    Happily we now have access to some of the gospels the first century Christians valued. Discussed for lay readers nicely in Bart Ehrman’s little book “Lost Christianities”. These are the gospels the Bishops declined to include in the canon.

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  2. @BobRyan:

    Really, The Bible is true because it says so? A circular argument cannot produce a valid result in any logical system.

    We had best value the Bible because of the kind of people following its’ teaching produces. Finding some way to discount the genocidal activites of Joshua, of course!

    Happily we now have access to some of the gospels the first century Christians valued. Discussed for lay readers nicely in Bart Ehrman’s little book “Lost Christianities”. These are the gospels the Bishops declined to include in the canon.

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  3. @ David Bee

    Reference: “ice rings”.

    I have no doubt that “ice rings” may be fairly accurately counted. But how is it known that one “ice ring” represents one year? Just because there seems to be one “ring” currently deposited per year, does that justify the belief that the current rate has been consistent for 400,000 years? Could one imagine conditions that would deposit multiple “rings” per year? I certainly can.

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  4. Deciphering ice ring layers becomes a problem after the first clearly distinguishable layers disappear under pressure. The layers in the upper area of a core can be counted – and in some cases it can be shown at the upper levels that there is one layer in a year. But when you go deeper down into the core, the layers will thin out as a result of high pressure and ice flow, making countable layers impossible.

    It is not only possible but also likely for various large snowstorms and/or snowdrifts to lay down multiple layers in a given year. Very short-term oscillations representing as little as a day or two do show up as variables in the layers of ice. Storms can vary in their temperature patterns. They can also last a few hours to several days, weeks, or even months. Of course, these storms and other anomalous weather patterns might present a bit of a problem for the uniformitarian paradigm.

    And finally there is the case where the ice-core theory was “tested” in Greenland by real life measurement against known data.

    It was in this area, 17 miles off the east coast of Greenland, that Bob Cardin and other members of his squadron had to ditch their six P-38’s and two B-17’s when they ran out of gas in 1942 – the height of WWII. Many years later, in 1981, several members of this original squad decided to see if they could recover their aircraft. They flew back to the spot in Greenland where they thought they would find their planes buried under a few feet of snow. To their surprise, there was nothing there. Not even metal detectors found anything. After many years of searching, with better detection equipment, they finally found the airplanes in 1988 three miles from their original location and under approximately 260 feet of ice! They went on to actually recovered one of them (“Glacier Girl” – a P38), which was eventually restored to her former glory.

    What is most interesting about this story, at least for the purposes of this discussion, is the depth at which the planes were found (as well as the speed which the glacier moved). It took only 46 years to bury the planes in over 260 feet (~80 meters) of ice and move them some 3 miles from their original location. This translates into a little over 5 ½ feet (~1.7 meters) of ice or around 17 feet (~5 meters) of compact snow per year and about 100 meters of movement per year. In a telephone interview, Bob Cardin was asked how many layers of ice were above the recovered airplane. He responded by saying, “Oh, there were many hundreds of layers of ice above the airplane.” When told that each layer was supposed to represent one year of time, Bob said, “That is impossible! Each of those layers is a different warm spell – warm, cold, warm, cold, warm, cold.”

    Also, the planes did not sink in the ice over time as some have suggested. Their density was less than the ice or snow since they were not filled with the snow, but remained hollow. They were in fact buried by the annual snowfall over the course of almost 50 years.

    As is normally the case with evolutionist storytelling (as in the case of Darwin’s “protoplasm” making up the inner working of the cell) – the less they know – the more certain they are of the realiability in their simplistic schemes of guesswork.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  5. David Bee: @BobRyan:
    Really, The Bible is true because it says so? A circular argument cannot produce a valid result in any logical system.

    We get that from our atheist friends all the time. That is the point where we take them to Daniel 2, 7, 8 and 9 showing them a period of over 2000 years of predicted history.

    Atheists like Walter Veith will take an honest look at the data and eventually become Christians – as sad as that may seem to some of our departing Christian friends.

    David Bee said — Discussed for lay readers nicely in Bart Ehrman’s little book “Lost Christianities”. These are the gospels the Bishops declined to include in the canon.

    You are talking to someone who personally sat in on one of Bart Ehrman’s debates with an SDA Pastor and doctoral student on the historicity of the Bible.

    Ehrman’s arguments were simplistic and targetted to the uninformed.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  6. David Bee’s example above is to demonstrate the “surrender first” solution of Bible interpretation and acceptance.

    But the SDA pastor and doctoral student I mentioned in that previous post – demonstrates the “stand and be counted” solution that seeks to refute the empty guesswork and hollow accusations of people like Ehrman – with actual fact.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  7. David Bee: “How do you suppose grape juice was protected from fermentation in Bible times? If it spent more than a couple of days in the wineskin it began to ferment, you can be sure.”

    Drying fruit was a way to do it. Drying out grapes and rehydrating the raisins made fresh wine.
    God bless,

    Rich

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  8. @BobRyan:

    BobRyanJuly 9, 2011 at 7:14 pm

    “And finally there is the case where the ice-core theory was “tested” in Greenland by real life measurement against known data.

    It was in this area, 17 miles off the east coast of Greenland, that Bob Cardin and other members of his squadron had to ditch their six P-38’s and two B-17’s when they ran out of gas in 1942 – the height of WWII. Many years later, in 1981, several members of this original squad decided to see if they could recover their aircraft.

    They flew back to the spot in Greenland where they thought they would find their planes buried under a few feet of snow. To their surprise, there was nothing there. Not even metal detectors found anything. After many years of searching, with better detection equipment, they finally found the airplanes in 1988 three miles from their original location and under approximately 260 feet of ice! They went on to actually recovered one of them (“Glacier Girl” – a P38), which was eventually restored to her former glory.

    What is most interesting about this story, at least for the purposes of this discussion, is the depth at which the planes were found (as well as the speed which the glacier moved). It took only 46 years to bury the planes in over 260 feet (~80 meters) of ice and move them some 3 miles from their original location. This translates into a little over 5 ½ feet (~1.7 meters) of ice or around 17 feet (~5 meters) of compact snow per year and about 100 meters of movement per year.

    In a telephone interview, Bob Cardin was asked how many layers of ice were above the recovered airplane. He responded by saying, “Oh, there were many hundreds of layers of ice above the airplane.” When told that each layer was supposed to represent one year of time, Bob said, “That is impossible! Each of those layers is a different warm spell – warm, cold, warm, cold, warm, cold.”

    Also, the planes did not sink in the ice over time as some have suggested. Their density was less than the ice or snow since they were not filled with the snow, but remained hollow. They were in fact buried by the annual snowfall over the course of almost 50 years.”

    *********
    This is really amazing! I wish I had this information a few weeks ago when the Ice Cores topic was discussed in Sabbath School. Since you did not reference this information, I took the time to Google this and was able to verify the authenticity of it. I found several sources confirming this. Here is one of them:

    http://evolutionfacts.com/New-material/frozen_planes.htm

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  9. @BobRyan:

    DANIEL’S PROPHEICES PROVEN TRUE? SEEMS IF THAT WERE SO, ALL BIBLE STUDENTS MIGHT AGREE ON THEIR MEANING. FOR SOME REASON ADVENTIST TEACHINGS SEEM TO BE DIFFICULT TO “SELL” TO MOST SCHOLARS. (Sorry, didn’t notice I was in all caps, didn’t mean to shout.)

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  10. David Bee: DANIEL’S PROPHEICES PROVEN TRUE? SEEMS IF THAT WERE SO, ALL BIBLE STUDENTS MIGHT AGREE ON THEIR MEANING.

    We get that a lot from our non-SDA friends when we point out that the Bible specifies clearly that the 7th day is the Sabbath – not the first day.

    “Well if that was true then everyone would be keeping the 7th day Sabbath instead of the first” say some.

    Your arguments appear to be some of the oldest debunked versions that we have.

    Surely you have found that to be so.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  11. David Bee: HOW LIKELY IS IT THAT 100 TIMES A YEAR A DUST/HEAT/COOLING CYCLE OCCOURED IN THE 4000 OR SO YEARS SINCE A UNVERSAL FLOOD?

    How far down in the compressed layers of ice did you want to claim you had distinct separated rings??

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  12. Nic Samojluk: In a telephone interview, Bob Cardin was asked how many layers of ice were above the recovered airplane. He responded by saying, “Oh, there were many hundreds of layers of ice above the airplane.” When told that each layer was supposed to represent one year of time, Bob said, “That is impossible! Each of those layers is a different warm spell – warm, cold, warm, cold, warm, cold.”
    Also, the planes did not sink in the ice over time as some have suggested. Their density was less than the ice or snow since they were not filled with the snow, but remained hollow. They were in fact buried by the annual snowfall over the course of almost 50 years.”
    *********
    This is really amazing! I wish I had this information a few weeks ago when the Ice Cores topic was discussed in Sabbath School. Since you did not reference this information, I took the time to Google this and was able to verify the authenticity of it. I found several sources confirming this. Here is one of them:
    http://evolutionfacts.com/New-material/frozen_planes.htm

    Sadly some of our evol-promoters have no end of data that they are willing to ignore when it comes to putting the theory to the test.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  13. Some myths never die, they just are posted permanently on young earth/young life creationist web sites.

    The “Greenland-Snow-Over-the-Airplanes Myth” conveniently ignores the fact that the airplanes landed near the Greenland coast at a location on a very active glacier where it is well-known that during the summer, the surface gets repeatedly melted. These “ice layers” reported are not the same type as found at the locations in the interior of Greenland where ice cores are taken. Annual layers are identified and counted by looking at a number of proxy indicators that show that they are annual such as visible dust layers and differing electrical conductivity.

    If one wishes to read the facts about the evidence that cores record tens of thousands of years of snow accumulation and in some locations back more than 100,000 years, there are a number of reputable sources to consult.

    Young earth/Young life creationism sites are the last place to look for scientifically credible information.

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  14. David Bee:
    @Rich Constantinescu:

    However, Jesus spoke of bursting wineskins not rehydrations.

    The new wineskins were sealed strong with pitch to resist fermentation. The fermentation’s explosive power would have burst the new skin as easily as the old skin. The old simply would have let in the yeast spores and caused an explosion. The expansive pressure of fermentation would burst new skins as easily as old skins. Raisins was “a way to do it”. Other methods of preserving juice besides raisins are documented such as sulfur or water extraction making syrup. (Prov. 20:1).
    God bless,

    Rich

    “It is said, “The new skin-bottles of the ancients allowed the clastic gases of the fermenting liquid to expand them, and therefore they did not burst and spill the wine.”

    “This is a delusion, for the strongest hide of hog or ox, formed into a bottle and filled with grape-juice that had begun to ferment, would, if closed up, be burst asunder as with imprisoned steam ; and if not closed, then the old bottle would run no risk of rending.* A cubic inch of sugar, transformed into carbonic acid gas, occupies a space of probably forty times as much.”

    “* ‘The force of fermenting wine is very great, being able, if closely stopped up, to burst through the strongest cask.” (Chambers’s Cyclopedia, art. * Wine/ 1750.) … See further, Works of Dr Lees, ii. p. 158, and elsewhere.’
    Temperance Bible Commentary, Lees and Burns

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  15. Anyone interested in the subject of fermented vs unfermented wine in Bible times needs to read Samuele Bacchiocci’s (hope I spelled that correctly) book on Wine in the Bible. Absolutely marvelous! He makes it crystal clear that God disapproved of fermented wine and approved of unfermented wine (grapejuice). He demonstrates the Hebrew and Greek words used for each and correlates them to God’s judgment on each.

    A must read for all Christians–especially SDAs.

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  16. Re the Greenland planes. How quick the pseudo SDAs are to find an explanation that defends the evolutionary view, yet how quickly they belittle real SDAs that find explanations that defend the Bible view.

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  17. Ervin Taylor: Some myths never die, they just are posted permanently on young earth/young life creationist web sites.
    The “Greenland-Snow-Over-the-Airplanes Myth” conveniently ignores the fact that the airplanes landed near the Greenland coast at a location on a very active glacier where it is well-known that during the summer, the surface gets repeatedly melted. These “ice layers” reported are not the same type as found at the locations in the interior of Greenland where ice cores are taken.

    The surrender-first evol myths conveniently ignore the high degree of volcanic activity that would have been present at and after the flood over a period of a 1000 years and the fact that the ice age reduced the habbitable part of the earth to a much more narrow band near the equator than we have today.

    Oh well – when was it ever the case that the T.E. “evol-first” solution in terms of atheist views on orgins as well as the “surrend-first” thinking when it comes to creation as God describes it – was open to all the apparent facts and observations in history?

    It is precisely because the evols will not allow them to “follow the data where it leads” that some of them reject the glaringly obvious I.D. element observed in nature.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  18. Colin Maunder: Re the Greenland planes. How quick the pseudo SDAs are to find an explanation that defends the evolutionary view, yet how quickly they belittle real SDAs that find explanations that defend the Bible view.

    As Kent pointed out when asked about his own work in that regard — he had “no time” or interest in any effort thinking about answers in support of the Bible account.

    Oh well – at least he was transparent on that point.

    in

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  19. It’s amazing how otherwise educated adults give in to, and actually believe in the false promises and other BS they are fed at church and through these websites. A pure fabrication.
    Has anyone here attempted verification of any of these religious claims? It’s very amusing how deep the discussions can go, investigating only inside the beliefs and referring to the bible and other supporting documents ONLY. The only thing proven here is that it’s a prime example of religious dogma at work.
    Constantly searching for answers to and through fabricated beliefs. Pathetic.

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  20. david: It’s amazing how otherwise educated adults give in to, and actually believe in the false promises and other BS they are fed at church and through these websites. A pure fabrication.
    Has anyone here attempted verification of any of these religious claims?

    Lots of pulpit-pounding in your statement – but no actual fact is disproved or even mentioned in your post.

    At some point you need to say something – at the very least – quote something and then complain or affirm it.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  21. To read the entire text of the “terminated” La Sierra faculty lawsuit against the church leaders go to the website of the law firm.

    http://www.mccunewright.com

    The press release is there as well as the complete text of the filed complaint.

    I was unaware till I read it that they had formally withdrawn their resignations prior to the board meeting to discuss the “firings”.

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  22. Faith: Anyone interested in the subject of fermented vs unfermented wine in Bible times needs to read Samuele Bacchiocci’s (hope I spelled that correctly) book on Wine in the Bible. Absolutely marvelous! He makes it crystal clear that God disapproved of fermented wine and approved of unfermented wine (grapejuice). He demonstrates the Hebrew and Greek words used for each and correlates them to God’s judgment on each.A must read for all Christians–especially SDAs.

    Faith, Where can we buy this book? On Amazon? ABC store? Thank you!

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  23. Hi Holly

    The ABC used to sell it, but when Samuele died, his wife apparently took all his books off the market(from what I was told). It is such a shame as Samuele had authored several really good books. I haven’t read all of them, but the one on wine in the Bible and the one on The Christian and Rock Music (I think it was called) are both terrific! I think you may find them on the second hand SDA book site LNFbooks.com. If not, you just have to watch for anyone wanting to sell their copy or put an ad in your local SDA papers. I have been very tempted to write to his widow and ask her if I can get more copies of these books. Anyway, hope you find the book. You will like it, I am sure.

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  24. Colin Maunder: Re the Greenland planes. How quick the pseudo SDAs are to find an explanation that defends the evolutionary view, yet how quickly they belittle real SDAs that find explanations that defend the Bible view.

    Indeed their actions reveal their true colors in the matter.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  25. That’s garbage and you know it Shane. Although I don’t expect someone with your lack of integrity to admit it. I know for a fact that there is NO reason to fire Gary Bradley other than his support of science being attacked by ignorant people like you who made waves in the church and at LSU. They are willing to lose their WASC accreditation before they lose their SDA accreditation so they responded to the likes of you and your cult. PERIOD.

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    • @Casey:

      I really just want to start a slow clap for you because you have summarized exactly how I am feeling now. I am a current student at LSU, just finished taking genetics from Dr. Bradley last quarter and Dr. Bradley is definitely the best thing that the LSU biology department had going for it. Fact of the matter is that it seems as those people at Educate Truth along with the other radicals out there care only about the issue, not about the actual students, otherwise they wouldn’t be putting us through this bullshit.

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      • @mrs1329: Thank you, I was starting to feel pretty lonesome on this thread. I am sorry that you and the rest of the bio students have to finish your college careers without Dr. Bradley. My experience there would have been much less fulfilling without him. We can honor him for standing up for what is right and follow in his footsteps. Good luck with finals!

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  26. If this has anything to do with what LSU has been doing the last 10+ years, I wonder what board member Jeff Kaatz has to do with all of this.

    This must be a difficult thing for those who are losing their jobs. It’s unfortunate that LSU and our church let it get to this point in the first place.

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  27. Casey: I don’t care what anyone says.

    Casey, LSU said themselves this has nothing to do with the biology issue. It we assume they are telling the truth, and I believe they are, there must be something else going on here. Whatever these men did, Educate Truth had nothing to do with it.

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  28. BobRyan: Bradley is the only person that clearly has a link to the sacrifice-all-for-evolutinism strategy in the LSU biology department based on his own statements to the press.

    Your characterization of an entire department (and in prior posts an entire university) as “sacrifice-all-for-evolutionism” because of the views of a few individuals is nothing more than propaganda. Do you truly believe in educating truth?

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  29. Kevin, Even if the resignations have nothing to do with the evolution controversy (which I believe they did at least for Dr. Bradley) it still stands that what “educate truth” is doing is wrong and petty. And the people behind this website are shallow and unscrupulous. I would not be surprised if they did this “because of said conflict and then claim it is unrelated”. Many organizations cover up/deny the reason(s) for making controversial decisions. They are trying to fend off fire. I think it’s naive to think it has nothing to do with the evolution controversy.

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  30. Bradley is the only person that clearly has a link to the sacrifice-all-for-evolutinism strategy in the LSU biology department based on his own statements to the press.

    Other than that – I am tempted to believe Graham when he states that this action has nothing at all to do with the LSU board trying to change course at LSU away from the all-for-evolutionism agendas of the past.

    If Graham is claiming that these are administrative actions that are needed entirely apart from the LSU crisis over evolutionism then I am giving him the benefit of the doubt on that point.

    Clearly it would have been in his favor to claim that these actions represent a major change in policy away from the old “all for evolutionism” strategy of the past. Since he is not going there – then perhaps this has nothing at all to do with fixing that problem.

    (Though clearly the issue with Bradley leaves at least a part of that claim in doubt.)

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  31. I have to agree with Shane’s stance: we do not know the reasons for the resignation requests. The reasons may involve ideological issues, legal issues, policy issues, or morality issues, and the issues may or may not be related for the four individuals.

    The chief concern of WASC (the secular accreditation organization) will be whether internal policy was adhered to, and the communication from LSU indicates this to be the case.

    I had heard that Dr. Bradley was a terrific teacher, and that he and other faculty members are treating SDA views on origins respectfully, as they should be. It what I was told is true, it would be sad if he was asked to resign his part-time teaching to appease the Educate Truth crowd.

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  32. Kari&#032W&#046:
    I attended LSU several years ago as a biology major, and had the pleasure of having Dr. Gary Bradley as one of my teachers. He was one of the best.Intelligent, energetic, and passionate about teaching students.What a sad day for La Sierra University biology students.A strong believer, who was not afraid to question and discuss the “big” issues that were confusing to many students. This is just tragic.

    I TOTALLY agree Kari. I was a biology major too and Dr. Bradley was one of my favorite teachers and role models. This is total GARBAGE! LSU is on it’s way to being an unaccredited bible school. It’s very sad because I love LSU. And it’s obvious that this IS because of the evolution controversy. I don’t care what anyone says. Shame on you Shane Hilde and everyone else at “educate truth” for being so shallow and unloving towards your fellow human beings. You are completely wrong in what you are doing beyond what you can understand. You’re so threatened by the theory of evolution and your faith is so weak that you are willing to get people fired from jobs they love just because evolution makes YOU feel uncomfortable. I hope you someday feel guilt and regret this terrible deed you have done.

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    • @Casey:

      Why would following the Bible story of creation be unloving? This is a philosophical issue. If I were a democrat why would I join the GOP? If I didn’t believe the bible, why would I go to a christian school to learn about evolution? Get real people, LSU belongs to the church, not the other way around.

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      • @shayne: When did I ever say that following the Bible story of creation is unloving. I said “Educate Truth” is unloving. Not because they believe in the literal translation of the Bible. But because they are so vehemently and hatefully against those who don’t.

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  33. Why would following the Bible story of creation be unloving? This is a philosophical issue. If I were a democrat why would I join the GOP? If I didn’t believe the bible, why would I go to a christian school to learn about evolution? Get real people, LSU belongs to the church, not the other way around.

    (Just incase you thought my comments came from Hilde)

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    • @Shayne Vincent: Dear Sir,
      If one is a democrat, is there anything wrong in knowing and understanding what the GOP stands for? If one is a Christian, does discussion regarding Buddhism compromise one’s state of Grace?
      The point of a University is the reason through multiple points of view, and then determine which of those is true. This cannot be done if only one set of ideas is represented. And remember, the University system was, itself, designed by the Christian church, as a way to encourage and expand our understanding of the universe.

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      • SATBGIRL: And remember, the University system was, itself, designed by the Christian church, as a way to encourage and expand our understanding of the universe

        @SATBGIRL:

        Point well taken – we should go back and look at just why the SDA church decided to divert tithe, gifts, offering money to establish a university at all.

        Why not just funnel all of those resources into more Gospel evangelism and leave the teaching of evolution to the existing schools of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s?

        Was it because Adventists were bent on promoting belief in evolutionism even though 3SG 90-91 identifies it as the “worst form of infidelity”??

        Is that why we created these institutions?

        Was it because we had the gospel mission of “better calculus… better physics… more devotion to evolution” and we were dissappointed in the failed efforts of other universities to provide those benefits to mankind?

        How wonderful to have a Math Physics Chem department at LSU where professors can model the blend of science and religion without compromising either.

        How sad that the LSU biology and religion departments could not master that same level of accomplishment.

        You rightly argue that we should look at our founding mission and goals when we created our schools.

        By contrast a number of complainers have come to EducateTruth and insisted that we NOT go back to the original purpose and mission for schools like LSU. Their arguments are effectively insisting that our new mission should be “to be the best public university that SDA tithe, tuition and offering dollars can buy”.

        Your post exemplifies the high goals of such a public university. Turns out the world already has them. No need to divert SDA tithe, offering and tuition dollars to create more.

        in Christ,

        Bob

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  34. Casey,
    You ought to grow up. I don’t see how Educate Truth can cause anybody to be fired. After all, it does not pay salaries and it is not a decision maker at all. Educate Truth has only been a commentator.

    If the university Chair said the issues with the bio dept are not the factors, then you should take up your beef with the chair and indeed ask him for the explanations. It is rather small of you to attack Hilde and his blog at a time like this.

    If at anytime in the future there is evidence (not speculation) to support your claim, THEN you may rant and rail. Yet, you apparently have no idea what it means to be faithful to the Bible and you either accept evolution as fact or saw no conflict with what the professors taught.

    If at all you consider yourself a Christian, I hope you recognise that faithfulness to Bible truths is more important than worldly honour and all will have to give an account for their actions later. I think Educate Truth has tried to be faithful to the Bible contrary to some professed Christians.

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    • @Jonathan: Like I said before, regardless of the reasons for the resignations, this site is wrong and petty. You can read my above comments as to why. This is a public thread so I can rant and rail all I want. I don’t have to wait till evidence supports any claim. I’m taking advantage of my freedoms so excuse me. Hilde can ban me or erase my messages if he really wants to. In addition, I never stated my stance as a Christian or not or my faithfulness to the Bible or not. So you are speculating as well. I clearly have a different view than most on this board so I expect the wave of comments against my favor. Which is fine. But why is it small for me to attack Hilde? He puts up a controversial website and expects no one to disagree? and now you are attacking me as well. You are being hypocritical. But I welcome your “attacks”. I’m not afraid of whatever you have to say. And I respect your belief in the literal translation of the Bible but it really leaves little for us to even argue…

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  35. @Shayne: I didn’t say creation is absurd. I said to teach it in a science class is absurd. And I didn’t say believing in it is ignorant. I said insisting it should be taught in a science class shows ignorance for what science is. Surely I disagree with your literal translation but I don’t think you are absurd or ignorant. I believe that people should be left alone to have their beliefs in peace. But, a science class only has room for science. And I don’t have to go to a state university to learn the theory of evolution. La Sierra does a great job of teaching it as they should.

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  36. Casey: I TOTALLY agree Kari. I was a biology major too and Dr. Bradley was one of my favorite teachers and role models. This is total GARBAGE! LSU is on it’s way to being an unaccredited bible school. It’s very sad because I love LSU. And it’s obvious that this IS because of the evolution controversy. I don’t care what anyone says. Shame on you Shane Hilde and everyone else at “educate truth” for being so shallow and unloving towards your fellow human beings. You are completely wrong in what you are doing beyond what you can understand. You’re so threatened by the theory of evolution and your faith is so weak that you are willing to get people fired from jobs they love just because evolution makes YOU feel uncomfortable. I hope you someday feel guilt and regret this terrible deed you have done.

    It seems a few commentators didn’t notice that the resignations have nothing to do with the biology conflict. Therefore also having nothing to do with Shane Hilde or this website.

    ——————–

    Regarding the comments as to ‘exposing’ the real reasons:

    It is entirely possible that there is no cover-up, that these indeed have nothing to do with the conflict over teaching creation versus teaching evolution.

    It could even be four separate issues which happened to be handled at the same time by the chairman.

    Whichever the case, we can only take their word that it is not about the conflict in the biology department. This means the reasons really are none of our business unless those involved choose to reveal the details to us.

    It is not moral for us to merely speculate that they would do this because of said conflict and then claim it is unrelated.

    The privacy of the individuals should be maintained unless there is clear reasoning not to do so, in accordance with Biblical principles.

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  37. The reason for the firings has come out at Spectrum: the four were secretly taped having a conversation to the effect (according to one 4th hand report) that LSU would be better off separated from the SDA Church. Bradley was having an alcoholic beverage during this conversation.

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    • @David Read:

      So I assume the meeting was with a larger group where somebody else taped them in the group and reported the problem.

      In any case – we have seen some people here and at the big-left-tent arguing that LSU should leave the denomination (which you would think would be a problem for the actual SDA faculty, staff and students within the LSU family).

      As noted earlier – “a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”

      You cannot expect leaders in the school with firm convictions opposed to our world view on life and our doctrinal view on God and origins to not behave at times in full accord with those firm convictions. (Even if they are now “civil” to SDA students in their class rooms that happen to believe in the actual SDA world view).

      in Christ,

      Bob

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  38. @Shane: What educate truth is doing that is wrong and petty: trying to get people fired over upholding academic integrity, when these people indeed care deeply about their students and are quality teachers, trying to turn people against La Sierra with your campaign, putting a lot of time and effort into crying over the fact that La Sierra biology teachers teach evolution when in fact they would be unfair and dishonest teachers to leave it out. Insisting that creation be taught in a science class which is completely absurd and screams scientific ignorance. Seriously? an entire website dedicated to smear a good school and teachers within. Truly pathetic and whats more amazing is that it’s starting to work. If you need more reasons I think rereading the comment of “City Lights – Mon, 06/13/2011 – 20:11” on the spectrum website is very accurate

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    • @Casey:

      Why is Creation absurd? You presume too much. If we as Church members believe the bible, is it appropriate to call us ignorant? Or why would it be inappropriate to ask a Christian school to follow the Bible. If you want to believe in evolution, then go to a State university. This is a very simple issue and has nothing to do with ignorance and everything to do with integrity.

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  39. David&#032Read: The reason for the firings has come out at Spectrum: the four were secretly taped having a conversation to the effect (according to one 4th hand report) that LSU would be better off separated from the SDA Church. Bradley was having an alcoholic beverage during this conversation.

    Ok — so the firings have everything to do with the evolution controversy at LSU – because they are directly related to the “solution chosen” for that controversy and the demonstrated fact that the wolf-in-better-sheeps-clothing solution is not working as they seem to have imagined that it would work.

    But it is working as would be expected if you look at the solution with a bit more objectivity.

    They are not trying to convince the wolf to be a sheep – only to act like one in a better “less objectionable” way.

    The solution is not better-behaved-wolves. I for one do not blame wolves for ‘being wolves’, but I would not ask them to lead sheep.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  40. just a quick reply, @SATBGIRL: but if a democrat begins to espouse what the GOP stands for, why be a democrat?

    I’m not too into analogies, because the issue at hand is deeper and wider than a political analogy can afford to compare, as well as my mind doesn’t do well in analogies. End reply.

    In any case, a previous comment on “weak faith” reminded me of one of new my favorite quotes from A. T. Jones,

    “Faith is expecting the Word of God to do what it says, and the depending upon
    that Word to do what it says.” (Lessons on Faith)

    Essential to faith, is humility – the humble belief that our human brains are just too puny to comprehend how truly great God is, and frankly, because we know God as He has revealed Himself, that we simply must accept His Word.

    Ironically, if anything, it would be unreasonable to doubt His Word.

    Enough with my blathering, but a short one that cuts to my point – “Skepticism and unbelief are not humility. Implicit belief in Christ’s word is true humility, true self-surrender.”

    God bless!

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  41. Casey: @Jonathan: Like I said before, regardless of the reasons for the resignations, this site is wrong and petty. You can read my above comments as to why. This is a public thread so I can rant and rail all I want. I don’t have to wait till evidence supports any claim.

    I agree that Casey’s objections are to be expected whenever someone stands up and points out a problem with the evolution “agenda” that includes things like withdrawing from the SDA denomination.

    We should not be surprised by the POV that says that LSU is doing a wonderful job promoting blind-faith evolutionism and nobody should get in their way — coming from those who have been drinking the evolution-koolaide.

    They will see nothing wrong with Bradley being honest and up front about his real views whether he speaks to the press or to some other gathering of LSU leaders.

    And frankly I don’t think you can blame Bradley for speaking his mind when he is so clearly opposed to both the mission and message of the Seventh-day Adventist church. What else would you want?

    The solution was never “tell Bradley to pretend as if he was in favor of the SDA view on origins, or message or mission”. Those who promoted that idea of wolf in sheeps clothing were begging for dissappointment and ultimately disaster.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  42. I think what happened to these men was much more than alcohol. There must be something on the recording that coupled with the alcohol caused great enough concern to ask for the resignation of all four men.

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  43. BobRyan: Ok — so the firings have everything to do with the evolution controversy at LSU – because they are directly related to the “solution chosen” for that controversy and the demonstrated fact that the wolf-in-better-sheeps-clothing solution is not working as they seem to have imagined that it would work.

    Shane&#032Hilde:
    I don’t think we should assume that. It’s quite clear that this had nothing to do with the biology issue, and that Bradley happened to be one of the four is due more to his part he played

    Shane – in my post above I argue that Bradley is merely being himself when he suggests that LSU should consider leaving the SDA fold of oversight. Suppose for a moment that Bradley were fully in favor of the SDA doctrine on origins – and promoted it in his classroom. In that case – do you really think he would then argue against staying with the SDA organization?

    This is clearly a case of the root of the problem showing itself – for a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. The solution they chose was simply “behavior modification” for the wolves. They did not choose to insist on actual creationists, therefore they ended up with disgruntled wolves who are looking for a more “progressive” solution than merely “pretending” to have no interest in promoting firm belief in evolution.

    Consider the alternative to the facts above – Do you think he was open to the idea of LSU leaving the SDA church “just because he wants to have the freedom to drink a small glass of alchohol”?

    For that matter – do you really think that Bradley would even think to drink in the presence of his peers from LSU if he was convinced that his peers never drink or that LSU is known for a consistent strong stand against drinking “in practice”?

    (BTW I am fully opposed to alcohol and consider it the sin of drug abuse – but I doubt that the LSU culture is really as firm on that point as I am and I am sure Bradley is aware of that.)

    This is not an issue about Bradley crusading for alcohol and suggesting that LSU leave the SDA fold if a more progressive stand on drinking is not adopted. Drinking was not the issue it was the convenient side issue. It is a technicality. It is like getting someone on tax evasion when your real interest in them is for some other deed for which you do not have the means or political avenue to address fully.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  44. It looks like Bradley has admitted to, over on Spectrum, drinking alcohol and being a part of a conversation, part of which was to discuss whether to have LSU become independent of SDA control?

    So, he’s for “evolution as fact” wants to consume alcohol, and wants LSU to at least “consider” freeing itself from SDA control.

    Are those the reasons HE was fired?

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  45. David&#032Read: The reason for the firings has come out at Spectrum: the four were secretly taped having a conversation to the effect (according to one 4th hand report) that LSU would be better off separated from the SDA Church. Bradley was having an alcoholic beverage during this conversation.

    Says it all.

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  46. According to Diana K., a commenter over at Spectrum, Bradley wrote her the following in an email:

    If you were to post it I don’t think a lot would be lost since I have distributed it fairly widely on campus.

    My only concern is that many read “secret recording” as diabolical whereas this was an accidental recording and distribution by one of the conversants. Thus it was more “Three Stooges” than “James Bond”.

    If you would add this explanation then posting would be no problem.

    So one of the four records the whole the incident and then passes it around? What on earth was this guy thinking. This was an accidental recording according to Bradley, but the real question is why it was accidentally recorded and then passed around.

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  47. BobRyan: Ok — so the firings have everything to do with the evolution controversy at LSU – because they are directly related to the “solution chosen” for that controversy and the demonstrated fact that the wolf-in-better-sheeps-clothing solution is not working as they seem to have imagined that it would work.

    I don’t think we should assume that. It’s quite clear that this had nothing to do with the biology issue, and that Bradley happened to be one of the four is due more to his part he played. Someone posted an alleged email from him at Spectrum. I’ve been really surprised at how much is being leaked from LSU to Spectrum. It’s like they want everyone to know what is going on now:

    To: My treasured friends and colleagues
    From: Gary Bradley
    6-12-11

    On Friday, June 10, 2011, I signed a letter resigning from the faculty position that I have enjoyed for 39 years. Since such an action always precipitates much speculation and many rumors, I want you to know exactly what happened and why.

    Recently a secret tape of a private conversation among four friends was released and distributed widely in the SDA church hierarchy. A professional transcript of that tape was prepared, albeit with some mistakes in identifying the speaker. I participated in that conversation, was confronted therewith in the Friday meeting, and agreed with much, but not all, of what was ascribed to me. This conversation has already been mischaracterized and is being used in further attempts to discredit La Sierra University.
    I signed the resignation letter that had been prepared for me for two reasons. First, I believe that the best way for La Sierra University to come through this fiasco is for a “head to roll.” Second, I admitted to consuming a small glass of an alcoholic beverage during this conversation. On the first count, everything I have tried to do for the past 39 years has been to help La Sierra University to succeed. On the second count, I can only say mea culpa.

    Needless to say, I am devastated. I feel like my very soul has been ripped from my body. My entire life since I began teaching 46 years ago has been dedicated to Adventist education. I’m not ready to quit and I grieve the loss of the classroom where I have had such rewarding interactions with the wonderful people who are my students. I have many important projects underway here now and many other people will be inconvenienced by my sudden departure. I can only say that I am deeply sorry and will try my utmost to earn redemption.

    If you are among those who welcome this transition, I request that you celebrate with dignity. If you are among those who find this transition upsetting, I ask that you not turn it into a war. Please continue to do what you can to make La Sierra University the best and most progressive SDA university in the world.

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  48. Casey: But, a science class only has room for science. And I don’t have to go to a state university to learn the theory of evolution. La Sierra does a great job of teaching it as they should.

    I agree fully that science class is for “science”. I would love it if the LSU admin would insist that the profs “stick to science” instead of proclaiming great myths and fictions about “birds coming from reptiles” or “animals coming from plants” or “eukaryote genomes acquiring new information in the form of new coding genes at the group-genome level”. As even one of their own atheist evolutionists complains about “stories” based on the fossil record about how one thing came from another – being “Stories easy enough to tell but they are not science because there is no way of putting the to the test”.

    Why spend so much time devoted to what even atheist evolutionists label “antiknowledge”??

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  49. Shane&#032Hilde: So one of the four records the whole the incident and then passes it around? What on earth was this guy thinking. This was an accidental recording according to Bradley, but the real question is why it was accidentally recorded and then passed around.

    The apparent answer to your real question: by accident.

    Shane&#032Hilde: According to Diana K., a commenter over at Spectrum, Bradley wrote her the following in an email:So one of the four records the whole the incident and then passes it around? What on earth was this guy thinking. This was an accidental recording according to Bradley, but the real question is why it was accidentally recorded and then passed around.

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  50. According to the LSU faculty handbook it appears that drinking alcohol is forbidden while employed by the church:

    In addition to the requirements of the law, La Sierra University adopts the temperance practices and health principles espoused by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. This means that all faculty, employees and students are expected to refrain from the use of alcohol, drugs or tobacco while
    enrolled or employed at the University. (Faculty Handbook 33)

    Violating this agreement can result in the following:

    The unlawful manufacture, distribution, dispensing, possession or use of a controlled substance or the use of alcohol or tobacco is grounds for a full range of discipline up to and including dismissal from employment or school under the policy of termination of a faculty member, the policy for termination of other employees, or student disciplinary policy. Any educational treatment alternative to discipline shall be at the sole discretion of the University. (Ibid 36)

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  51. I stand in support of Educate Truth and its efforts to maintain integrity on an SDA campus of higher education. “Once to every man and nation (university) comes the moment to decide, in the strife of truth and falsehood, for the good or evil side.” Our church history shows that we have had to watch church institutions (Battle Creek San and Hospital) leave the sisterhood of institutions due to false teachings by its leadership. We should not be surprised if the cost of fidelity to truth has a price. Politically, we know that freedom has a price. Spiritually, fidelity to truth has a price.

    I regret that Shane is coming under attack for having the courage to keep the light burning for doctrinal truth in Adventist education. We have long purported the idea of integration of faith and learning. Why would we want to excuse a science department who moves away from the “faith” aspect of its discipline?

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  52. I don’t believe the Educate Truth administration truly wants to see LSU leave the Church’s control.

    There are, however, some supporters of ET who want LSU to leave the SDA fold. Are these folks pleased with or critical of an LSU employee who takes a similar position?

    I’ll make my position transparent: the SDA Church greatly benefits from LSU (which is NOT all-out-for-evolutionism), and there are many non-SDAs who would not learn about our distinct beliefs and culture if LSU was not SDA. I want LSU to represent the very best of Adventism.

    Rather than throwing proverbial sticks and stones at an institution and assorted individuals, why don’t we pray earnestly for LSU, those who are making decisions about the institution, those affected by the decisions, and especially those with whom we disagree.

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  53. In order to count oneself as a member of an established organization which defines itself and it’s members in a certain way, one must meet the definition of members thereof.

    If one does not meet the definitions established by the organization for it’s members, then one is not able to accurately call oneself a member.

    If one continues to call oneself a member of an organization, while not meeting it’s definitions of it’s own members, then one is lying about one’s own status as members. Possibly and likely including lying to oneself.

    —–

    Less logician-sounding:

    You can’t call yourself a member of a group while not being what the group defines it’s own members to be.

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  54. @BobRyan:

    My point is that each of us at some pont decides what authority we will rely upon. If persued deeply enough, of course, that authority is our own intellect. As individuals we accept the Bible as verbally inspired or give ourselves or some person or orginization the authority to parse it for us.

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  55. Shane&#032Hilde: @Professor Kent: I’m speculating of course, but I lean toward the recording being the clencher in all of this. I’m sure people who have it are wildly passing it around and eventually it will surface. Then commenters won’t have to rely on your assessment.

    Shane, It seems like just about everyone has heard it, why not just share it with everyone and let all decide what is actually said and what it means?

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  56. @BobRyan:
    I am tempted to that a God who laughs must be capable of surprise. Surely he must have been a little surprised when so many of his efforts to redeem and restore Israel failed. Can his foreknowlege truly be adequate in the face of free will?

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  57. @BobRyan:

    I am most saddened by all this controversy about dogma and words because I can’t find much indication in the gospels that Jesus cared much for doctrinal concerns. His “Kingdom of God” that was here and now didn’t seem to have a list of fundamental beliefs.

    I would be much more comforted by the notion of sola scriptura if I had any defensible reason to know exactly which words in which manuscript by which authors were “inspired”. I should also need to know if the inspiration was verbal as in the decalogue of Exodus 20 or did “the spirit of the Lord came upon me” type of inspiration.

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  58. @BobRyan:

    The following website does a fine job of summarizing the evidence regarding Bible authorship and varying views on the data.

    Worth a few minute of anyone’s time who cares about the Bible.

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1985/who-wrote-the-bible-part-1

    “Solo-scriptura” need not imply an unreasoning devotion to specific words even if one can read the oldest available manuscripts in their original language.

    The Biblical Research Institute at the GC should have several papers available on the topic of Bible authorship and inspiration.

    We don’t accept that the Psalms in our Bible that were found to be copies of hymns to Baal written hundreds of years before the kingdom of Isreal are less glorious and worshipful becasue they could not have been inspired by the Holy Spirit.

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  59. Hey Guys – one thought. I don’t feel this whole thing is of the mind of Christ. Regardless of what happened…here’s a quote of where our hearts should be:

    •There are many whose religion consists in criticising habits of dress and manners. They want to bring every one to their own measure. They desire to lengthen out those who seem too short for their standard, and to cut down others who seem too long. They have lost the love of God out of their hearts; but they think they have a spirit of discernment. They think it is their prerogative to criticise, and pronounce judgment; but they should repent of their error, and turn away from their sins… Let us love one another. Let us have harmony and union throughout our ranks. Let us have our hearts sanctified to God. Let us look upon the light that abides for us in Jesus. Let us remember how forbearing and patient He was with the erring children of men. We should be in a wretched state if the God of heaven were like one of us, and treated us as we are inclined to treat one another.
    o The Review and Herald (27 August 1889), p. 530.

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  60. David&#032Bee:
    @BobRyan:
    Somehouw I must have missed EGW’s advice on ritual purification baths

    Somehow I missed the connection between that and the Historic-Grammatical hermeneutic for simply rendering the text accurately – then testing all doctrine “sola scriptura” to the point of actually accepting the Bible teaching on the real 7 day creation week “For in six days the Lord made…”

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  61. @BobRyan:

    If you have not yet done so, I reccommend reading Dawkins’ “The Ancestor’s Tale” He seems to make an actual effort to not be quite as polemical as in other writings and the book gives a pretty good idea of an evolutionst’s thinking at least up to 2005.
    Attacks on creationists do not seem to be his primary objective in this book. An easy read, I reccommend it if you wish to feel conversant with modern Darwinism.

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  62. Adventist&#032kid: Continue to believe that if you want. Not a scientific sample to say the least, but I just asked roughly 80 high school graduates from this year whether they chose which school they were going to or if their parents did. I didn’t even get ten who said their parents limited their choices or prevented them from going to their first choice.

    I am sure at lot of students going to Southern would agree with you.

    But you have not made your case yet.

    The problem with the LSU fiasco is that SDA parents are the one’s paying for the education in most cases. Some of them may be inclined to have schools blindly selected. But a great many “will care”.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  63. David&#032Bee: We don’t accept that the Psalms in our Bible that were found to be copies of hymns to Baal written hundreds of years before the kingdom of Isreal are less glorious and worshipful becasue they could not have been inspired by the Holy Spirit.

    That “have you stopped beating your wife yet” statement is crafted well but conveys error.

    2Tim 3:16 “ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God” is the reason that we test all doctrine “sola scriptura”.

    It is also the reason that the test of a genuine Bible prophet is infallible doctrine – because God himself cannot err.

    If scripture were not from God – then the test above would be invalid.

    Admittedly some of our “tradition not Bible” sister denominations might not go for this strict sola scriptura method – but we do.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  64. David&#032Bee: @BobRyan:
    Really, The Bible is true because it says so? A circular argument cannot produce a valid result in any logical system.

    We get that from our atheist friends all the time. That is the point where we take them to Daniel 2, 7, 8 and 9 showing them a period of over 2000 years of predicted history.

    Atheists like Walter Veith will take an honest look at the data and eventually become Christians – as sad as that may seem to some of our departing Christian friends.

    David Bee said — Discussed for lay readers nicely in Bart Ehrman’s little book “Lost Christianities”. These are the gospels the Bishops declined to include in the canon.

    You are talking to someone who personally sat in on one of Bart Ehrman’s debates with an SDA Pastor and doctoral student on the historicity of the Bible.

    Ehrman’s arguments were simplistic and targetted to the uninformed.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  65. Bob Orrick, I agree with your syllogism.

    One technical point that an ID theorist would explain, however, is that random processes can create information in the sense of creating more detail; this is called “Shannon” information. Random process can change this:

    atgccgttaac

    into this:

    atgccgttaac atgccgttaac

    and then into this:

    atgcccttaac atgcgtttaac

    That’s certainly more “information” than we started with, but not necessarily more meaning. (In fact, we know that genetic mutations are overwhelmingly more likely to ruin “meaning” or biological function than they are to enhance it.) Thus, what ID theorists contend is that random processes cannot create complex specified information.

    The faith position of Darwinists is that random processes can generate an enormous amount of complex specified information, but that doesn’t really seem much more likely than producing “War and Peace” by having a monkey bang away on a computer keyboard.

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  66. David&#032Bee: I guess we must find the will to trust that the Bishops in Alexadria 1600 years ago

    2Peter 1:20-21 “NO scripture is a matter of one person’s interpretation. Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke From GOD”.

    2Tim 3:16 “ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God”.

    The NT saints of the first century A.D. were not “waiting 400 years for some bishops to tell them which books to read” — though many of our RCC friends like to tell such stories.

    Generally does not fly that well with actual non-Catholics.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  67. David&#032Bee: My point is that each of us at some pont decides what authority we will rely upon.
    [/quote]

    Agreed. The SDA church has chosen the “sola scriptura” basis for testing and accepting doctrine.

    David&#032Bee: If persued deeply enough, of course, that authority is our own intellect.

    I believe it is true that some liberals and progressives eventually reduced to that minimal point.

    But for the rest of us – “All scripture is given by inspiration from God” 2Tim 3:16.

    John 16 – the Spirit of Truth “guides us into all truth”.

    Hence the priesthood of all believers.

    David&#032Bee:
    As individuals we accept the Bible as verbally inspired or give ourselves or some person or orginization the authority to parse it for us.
    David Bee(Quote)

    Protestants have been getting that line from our Catholic friends for centuries.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  68. @BobRyan:

    Happily the thousands of SDA’s who do not believe in a literal 6 day creation have not decided to resign from the church. They find the benefit of a church community to outway debates about which if any “words” of scripture were infallibly dictated by God.

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  69. @David Bee:

    Shane, please let me know if I appear to be trying to bend anyone’s deeply held beliefs. The damage from the cognitive dissonance that would ensure were the church to try to alter any FB would definitely not be a Christ-like objective.

    I comment only to represent those of us who cherish our church but believe in individual responsibility for dogmatic concerns. Perhaps if we could downplay dogma a little, we would have more time for trying to help and heal our communities.

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  70. David Bee:

    Am I to understand that you are an SDA minister and don’t believe scripture???? Do you really think that it is honest to be an SDA minister and undermine the church’s doctrines? I shudder to think of the poor people you have been in contact with.

    I have been absolutely disgusted by your posts. You seem to be bent on teaching heresy and discrediting the Scriptures. Shame on you. You have betrayed the commission God gave you. You should go to Early Writings and read in the chapter on False Shepherds what the punishment is for those who lead others astray when they should know better. It isn’t pretty.

    You will have much to account for come the judgment day.

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  71. I have located a copy of the 1893 Canadian edition of Great Controversy. EGW in her preface discusses “Ispiration” and how the words of Scripture are mainly the words of men led by Holy Spirit.

    She also discusses how inspiration continues to act even today. Interestingly she is clearlhy willing to let the Catholic Bishops of the fourth century define the canon of scripture, under the Holy Spirit supervision, no doubt.

    Here is the web address

    Begins on the 4th un-numbered page, I think

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  72. Shane&#032Hilde: Are you suggesting that the their contract has nothing to do with the faculty handbook and all it the policies it contains?
    Alcohol consumption as a leader in our church and even a member is undermining to our beliefs and the Christian lifestyle.

    No–I’m not suggesting anything of the sort. I don’t know how alcohol got tied into the resignation letter because I heard only one reference to an alcoholic drink (in relation to anyone having a desire to drink it during or after a future church group meeting) and heard no comments such as “I’ll have some more wine.” Again, I might have missed something. I suspect the alcohol “evidence” was independent of the discussion, and I’m restricting my comments to what I heard on the tape, none of which would relate to a contract (in my honest opinion).

    You guys are like an open container of popcorn in the microwave, bouncing wildly off the walls.

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  73. @Shayne Vincent:

    I am not capable of imagining that Ezra and his editors were capable of formulating modern knowledge of astronomy and geography in ways valuable to his readers 2600 years ago.

    Not sure how he would have expailned DNA, genetics, bacteria to an Israel of 600 BC, even one exposed to the unversity of Bablyon’s pofessors.

    Pretty sure prophets of every age must speak within the knowledge base of their audience. Would EGW have kept her audience if she had revealed the actual earth age or the truth that masturbation does not cause disease?

    Inspiration fails to inspire if it speaks in tongues.

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  74. @Professor Kent: I’m speculating of course, but I lean toward the recording being the clencher in all of this. I’m sure people who have it are wildly passing it around and eventually it will surface. Then commenters won’t have to rely on your assessment.

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  75. @Ron Stone M.D.:

    Graduated Andrews 1961 with BA religion, incidently one of the only two seniors who passed the graduate record exam. Several failed to score at all in the humanities section. Sad commentary on the narrow “education” we had paid for.

    Professors were luminaries such as E R Thiele, D A Augsburger, Sakai Kubo, Ivan Blazen, Seigfried Horn and others deceased.

    Seminary leadership was forced out or restrained in later years as Gerhard Hasel was imposed by GC leaders. That was the end of un-restricted Bible scholarship. We were taught to understand the Bible through the experience of the authors in the context of their audience. Now we must only teach what religionists of the last 100 years think the author meant. Disregarding archeology and literary knowledge which has increased.

    We learned to see the spiritual beauty and grandeur in the allegorical majesty of the creation myths handed down to Isreal from even more ancient cultures.

    Now there are seminary faculty who state in church publications that the laws of Leviticus are still in effect. A view that would surely have astonished EGW.

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  76. Professor&#032Kent: I didn’t hear anything having to do with an academic contract I’ve ever seen–and I’ve signed my fair share.

    Are you suggesting that the their contract has nothing to do with the faculty handbook and all it the policies it contains?

    Alcohol consumption as a leader in our church and even a member is undermining to our beliefs and the Christian lifestyle.

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  77. Professor&#032Kent: This commentary posted at Spectrum reflects the Christianity and Spirit of Christ that motivates me:

    Patti Cottrell Grant – Wed, 06/15/2011 – 09:44
    Once again it appears that vengeful and short-sighted GC leadership has carelessly squandered a priceless opportunity to present to the world a true picture of how God deals lovingly with his all-too-human children.

    Either Patti thinks Ricardo Graham is a member of the GC and that the GC owns and runs LSU or she thinks that the LSU board should not take the action that it did in cases like this.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  78. David&#032Bee: @Ron Stone M.D.:

    Graduated Andrews 1961 with BA religion,…We were taught to understand the Bible through the experience of the authors in the context of their audience.

    Now we must only teach what religionists of the last 100 years think the author meant. Disregarding archeology and literary knowledge which has increased.

    Now there are seminary faculty who state in church publications that the laws of Leviticus are still in effect. A view that would surely have astonished EGW.

    First of all Lev 19:18 “Love your neighbor as yoursef” has never been rejected by Ellen White or SDAs or the Christian church or Christ himself.

    Secondly – the Lev 11 law of clean and unclean meats was strongly endorsed by Ellen White.

    So also the Lev 18 prohibitions against gross moral sins that God calls abominiations for which he would wipe out even a pagan nation not just a believing nation.

    Your sweeping statements are made without careful attention to detail.

    Seventh-day Adventists have a Bible with 66 books -not just 27 that have been downsized to 23 by so-called “new theology”.

    BTW – I am surprised you did not list Heppenstall in your highlight section.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  79. @David Bee:

    For very spiritual thoughts on evolution I reccommend Professor Haught’s Op-Ed piece below.

    Darwin, God, and the drama of life
    By John F. Haught
    Woodstock Theological Center

    Evolution makes very good sense scientifically speaking. But does it make good sense theologically as well? Not everyone thinks it does. Religious believers who find evolution contrary to faith usually do so because they are focusing on the complex “design” that scientists have discovered in cells and organisms. They insist that life’s chemically and physically improbable architecture points to a divine intelligence that current biology cannot explain. Evolution-inspired atheists, however, usually respond that the architecture of cells and organisms is imperfect, even though awe-inspiring. “This imperfection–the manifold design flaws of life–,” writes David Barash of the University of Washington, “points incontrovertibly to a natural, rather than a divine process, one in which living things were not created de novo, but evolved.”

    I propose, however, that religious thought can make significant contact with Darwin’s science if instead of focusing on design it turns its attention to the drama of life. The typically design-obsessed frame of mind through which so many devout theists, as well as staunch atheists, are looking at the question of God and evolution is a dead end both scientifically and theologically.

    Religious conservatives have desperately tried to introduce the idea of “intelligent design” into their pre-Darwinian idealization of scientific understanding. But in doing so they have overlooked the grandeur that Darwin saw in the larger story of life. Ironically, contemporary evolutionary materialists (Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Jerry Coyne, for example), are as preoccupied with design as their anti-Darwinian religious opponents. They too have seized Darwin’s rich story of life and bled the drama right out of it.

    Claiming that Darwin has disposed of divine design, atheistic evolutionists assume that science has thereby wiped away the last traces of deity from the record of life. Yet they have failed to notice that the very features of evolution–unpredictable accidents, predictable natural selection, and the long reach of time–that seem to rule out the existence of God, are essential ingredients in a monumental story of life that turns out to be much more interesting theologically than design could ever be.

    The most important issue in the current debate about evolution and faith is not whether design points to deity but whether the drama of life is the carrier of a meaning. According to rigid design standards, evolution appears to have staggered drunkenly down multiple pathways, leading nowhere. But viewed dramatically, the apparent absence of perfect order at any present moment is an opening to the future, a signal that the story of life is not yet over.

    To make sense of the drama of life, therefore, we shall have to wait–a disposition essential to any mature religious faith. For if evolution has an eternally sanctioned “point,” we should expect that it would presently be hidden in the narrative depths of life rather than manifested in the always imperfect instances of design that float along on life’s surface. Dramatic stories, unlike complex living systems or elaborately structured molecular states, have the potential to carry a truly deep significance. But it is the nature of stories that they have comic twists and tragic turns, and that they take time to unfold.
    So whatever meaning the drama of life may be carrying cannot become transparent to our present intellectual efforts or scientific observations. Again, we have to wait.

    A theological reading of evolution, I am suggesting, looks for an alternative to the rigor mortis of perfect design, and this is why Darwin’s ragged portrait of life is not so distressing after all. Theologically understood, biological evolution is part of an immense cosmic journey into the incomprehensible mystery of God. Any possible meaning it has will reside at a level of narrative depth unfathomable by the mathematical nets of physical science, by armchair observation, or by minds fixated on design.

    According to a biblically inspired theology of nature, beneath life’s diversity, descent, and flawed design, stirs an evolutionary drama that has been aroused, though not coercively driven, by a God of infinite love. The cosmos is called continually into being by a Creator who wills, but does not force, truly interesting outcomes to emerge in surprising new ways. God, as scripture suggests, is the one who “makes all things new.” The drama of life and its evolution is a response to this invitation.

    John F. Haught, Ph. D., is Senior Fellow, Science & Religion, at Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University.

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  80. @BobRyan:

    Of course the Romman Catholic church fouond no difficulty with the Bible and evolution, officaily proclaiming that evolution was how God created the universe. I believe this teaching became official around 1996 or so.

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  81. David&#032Bee: @David Bee:For very spiritual thoughts on evolution I reccommend Professor Haught’s Op-Ed piece below.Darwin, God, and the drama of lifeBy John F. HaughtWoodstock Theological CenterEvolution makes very good sense scientifically speaking. But does it make good sense theologically as well? Not everyone thinks it does. Religious believers who find evolution contrary to faith usually do so because they are focusing on the complex “design” that scientists have discovered in cells and organisms. They insist that life’s chemically and physically improbable architecture points to a divine intelligence that current biology cannot explain. Evolution-inspired atheists, however, usually respond that the architecture of cells and organisms is imperfect, even though awe-inspiring. “This imperfection–the manifold design flaws of life–,” writes David Barash of the University of Washington, “points incontrovertibly to a natural, rather than a divine process, one in which living things were not created de novo, but evolved.” John F. Haught, Ph. D., is Senior Fellow, Science & Religion, at Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University.

    I would argue two points to the contrary.

    1. Birds-come-from-reptiles fictions do not make good science because that idea like all of the salient points in the evolutionists line of stories – is not observable in nature, nor is it reproducible, nor testable except to observe its absence. (It is tantamount to a theological argument.)

    2. Atheist evolutionist prefer the storytelling in evolutionism (as flawed as it is) because they have no other choice as atheists.

    Christians who get befuddled by arguments in favor of blind faith devotion to evolutionism have failed to apply the critical thinking necessary in point 1 above.

    And of course – the Bible cannot be married to evolutionism – as Darwin points out — as Dawkins points out.. and as the SDA publication 3SG 90-91 points out.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  82. David&#032Bee: @Ron Stone M.D.: Graduated Andrews 1961 with BA religion, incidently one of the only two seniors who passed the graduate record exam. Several failed to score at all in the humanities section. Sad commentary on the narrow “education” we had paid for.Professors were luminaries such as E R Thiele, D A Augsburger, Sakai Kubo, Ivan Blazen, Seigfried Horn and others deceased.Seminary leadership was forced out or restrained in later years as Gerhard Hasel was imposed by GC leaders. That was the end of un-restricted Bible scholarship. We were taught to understand the Bible through the experience of the authors in the context of their audience. Now we must only teach what religionists of the last 100 years think the author meant. Disregarding archeology and literary knowledge which has increased.We learned to see the spiritual beauty and grandeur in the allegorical majesty of the creation myths handed down to Isreal from even more ancient cultures.Now there are seminary faculty who state in church publications that the laws of Leviticus are still in effect. A view that would surely have astonished EGW.

    So, your world of distant decades past has changed? Welcome to what we call “reality!”

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  83. The progressive mantra that nothing is salvational is also a way Bradley could get off. Since nothing really matters, who cares about teaching “evolution as fact” boozing it up, and discussing a “mutiny” against the SDA Church by LSU.

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  84. David&#032Bee: @Ron Stone M.D.: I am sure none of our Old Testament scholars believe the pentatuch as we have it is the original work of Moses. Ezra clearly states he edited the work and internal literary evidence points to a most careful arrangement to create a truly literary result. The great commentary “The Anchor Bible” has much info.

    So, please name all of these SDA scholars who you claim have this belief.

    Ezra doesn’t count!

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