The Reptile King

By: Sean Pitman, Dr. Warren Ashworth, and Pastor Ron Cook

July 12, 2001

On the front cover of the spring 2011 edition of La Sierra University Magazine there is a wonderful photograph of Dr. Lee Grismer smiling at a gecko in his hand and titled, “The Reptile King”.  The article goes on to detail Dr. Grismer’s intense passion for nature and for God and recounts several of Grismer’s thrilling experiences discovering new species in exotic locations around the world.

The only problem, of course, is that the article says nothing about Dr. Grismer’s ardent opposition to the Adventist position on origins and his active support and promotion of mainstream evolutionary theories in his classes. While the article does describe Grismer’s love for God and his experience of God through nature (and even his baptism into the Adventist Church), all wonderful things indeed, what about the fact that the Seventh-day Adventist Church has asked all educators in all Adventist schools to “uphold and advocate the church’s position on origins”? and for our students “to receive a thorough, balanced, and scientifically rigorous exposure to and affirmation of our historic belief in a literal, recent six-day creation, even as they are educated to understand and assess competing philosophies of origins that dominate scientific discussion in the contemporary world”? (reference)

Dr. Grismer believes and teaches that living things on this planet have existed and evolved over billions of years through a process that involved the death and untold suffering of sentient creatures through countless generations. He teaches that modern birds evolved from dinosaurs and that whales evolved from land-dwelling mammals, etc… all in line with mainstream evolutionary thinking (see slide from one of Dr. Grismer’s LSU class lectures below). There is no mention in any of Dr. Grismer’s lectures of any counter evidence to mainstream evolutionary thinking, the age of life on Earth, or any empirical support for the Adventist position on a recent creation by God of much of the diversity and adaptability of living things within six literal days.

Given Dr. Grismer’s significant charisma and evident popularity with his students, his evolutionary beliefs and teachings carry a great deal of weight with nearly all of his students. Most come away from his classes shaken in their understanding and belief in the Adventist position on a literal creation week of all life on this planet within fairly recent history. Many leave Adventism behind, or, if they do stay in the church, do so as social Adventists who really do not believe in several of the basic doctrinal positions of the church. They somehow meld a form of theistic evolutionism with Christianity in line with Dr. Grismer’s own beliefs and influence.

I am well aware of the influence of Dr. Grismer’s teachings, and of several other science professors at LSU who hold and teach similar views. I’ve spoken with many students who have taken courses from these professors.  Even members of my own family have been dramatically affected by such teachings and have either left the church or no longer subscribe to various official doctrinal positions of the church.

It seems, therefore, rather brazen of LSU to actively promote a professor who is so actively undermining the bedrock fundamental positions of the Adventist Church within our own school system.  Does the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church take no notice of such subversive activity?  or is our leadership simply too powerless or intimidated by the intelligentsia within the church to do anything or even to say anything of any real substance to address this serious issue within many of our schools and universities?

While LSU has been among the most bold in its open defiance of the clearly stated goals and ideals of the Adventist Church, as an organization, this is by no means a unique situation to LSU. If the unique contribution of the Adventist Church to the reality of the Gospel message of hope is to remain viable, something must be done to address the magnetic influence of those who are most ardently opposed to our doctrines and who are undermining the order and government of the church from within.

At the very least the Adventist Church should be active in warning parents, students, and the church membership at large of these problems within our schools and of the risks involved with sending our young people to be placed under the influence of those like Dr. Grismer.  At the very least the members of our church deserve greater transparency as to what can be expected from so-called “Adventist Education” which is often purchased at great price and personal sacrifice by those who are entrusting their greatest possessions on this Earth into the hands of an institution that bears the name, “Seventh-day Adventist”.

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256 thoughts on “The Reptile King

  1. What bizarre times we live in! It really amazes me. Right is called wrong and wrong is called right. Believing God’s word is called “Fundamentalist” and that is a slur, and what we used to call “backslidden” is referred to as liberal/progressive, modern and right. How strange. It used to be considered shameful to be disloyal to the church’s teachings and something to be disfellowshipped for. Now it is championed. Surely the Lord is coming soon!! Maranatha!




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  2. David Read: The line of questioning I’ve engaged in since you mentioned Matthew 18 was to lead you to the idea that, in the abstract, in principle, one who believes in the historicity of Gen. 1-11 ought to do origins science using a model or paradigm that assumes the truth of that history. Was I mistaken in assuming that you would be able to reason in principle, beyond the concrete realities of your personal situation?

    Right. And by your reasoning, one who believes in the historicity of the Gospels ought to do resurrection science, showing that a human body after three days of decomposition can return to life. One should also pursue salvation science, showing how the body and spirit can escape both science and the confines of this planet. Sadly, those in your camp are obsessed with origins science to the neglect of resurrection and salvation science. Why is that?

    Some of us prefer to look ahead rather than behind, and for that we become the target of insults, scorned for the way we think and reason.




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  3. I meant to write regarding salvation science, “showing how the body and spirit can escape both DEATH and the confines of this planet.”




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  4. Charles: Thank you for the quotations from EG White regarding the 6,000 years. Please permit me to add one more–perhaps the most important of all. This passage is from The Great Controversy, Chapter 41 “The Desolation of the Earth”, page 656:

    “For six thousand years the great controversy has been in progress; the Son of God and His heavenly messengers have been in conflict with the power of the evil one, to warn, enlighten, and save the children of men. Now all have made their decisions; the wicked have fully united with Satan in his warfare against God. The time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. Now the controversy is not alone with Satan, but with men. “The Lord hath a controversy with the nations;” “He will give them that are wicked to the sword.””

    Please note that this is pronounced AT THE TIME OF THE SECOND COMING. What does that tell us about the amount of time we have left to prepare? We are in the millenium of the second coming. And we are told that the work will be cut short for the sake of God’s people or they would be destroyed from off the earth.

    You evolutionary scientists out there are all wrong. I don’t even concede to 10,000 years. This earth is 6,000 years old. God gave these messages to Ellen White. He was there at Creation. He Created this earth and HE KNOWS the age of it. He doesn’t have to guess by the use of ice rings or layers of the earth or any other trumped up imaginings of man. He knows. He said repeatedly 6,000 years. Wake up, people. We stand in the last days of this earth. It is time to cleanse ourselves from all unrighteousness (we have to do our part–we cannot do God’s part) and get ready for that solemn and wonderful event–His return to the planet He made. Don’t let stubborness or the false evidences of the scientific community blind you to this. Your soul is in peril. And so are the souls of the youth in the classrooms. There is no time for politics or for subtle deceptions to work in this situation. Our church needs to be purified and we all need to be purified. Repent–for the time is short.




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  5. Pingback: Dr. Geraty Affirms the Literal Creation Week? |

  6. Larry Geraty: tA friend suggested I check out on this blog some of the posts by Holly Pham, Nathan Huggins, and others who mention with apparent authority some of my “beliefs.” I have done so and certainly don’t recognize myself! For the record, 1) I am NOT a theistic evolutionist nor have I ever suggested it to be “the true model of origins.” 2) I have NEVER suggested anything like the view that conservative Adventists (of whom I coun myself) are “the type that fly planes into buildings.” (Hopefully that denial will make less “scary” the fact that I have been the president of an Adventist institution.)3) Nor would I have ever dreamed of “locking EGW and the rest of the pioneers in Gitmo if they were alive today.” On the contrary, I consider myself a “fan” of Ellen White and many of the pioneers and have the utmost respect and appreciation for their contributions in laying the foundations of our denomination. I challenge anyone to find a disparaging comment from me regarding any of those individuals. Thanks for more closely following the “Comment Guidelines” outlined below for the contributors to this blog.

    Dr. Geraty, Thank you for your clarification on this issue. I have noticed you have been a public supporter of “gay marriage” also. Have you anything to say regarding clarifying your stance on this issue? i.e. Are you still supporting the idea of “gay marriage?”




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  7. @Dr. Geraty, Also, how many of the teachers allegedly teaching evolution as fact were hired under your tenure as President of LSU? Were you aware of their beliefs in evolution as fact when you hired them?




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  8. Faithful Disciple: Surely the Lord is coming soon!! Maranatha!

    Two years and thousands upon thousands of comments at this website…and not a single expression of concern to date that LSU is teaching the second coming. What does this say about our priorities?




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  9. Ron: There is a fifth option. Believe that the Bible is the word of God, but that it was not meant to be understood as a rule book, but as a case study. Maybe we are supposed to read it and think about it, and maybe even disagree with it. You know, argue with God, like Abraham did before Sodom and Moses did before Israel, and Mary did at the wedding. Maybe like Job we are supposed to be honest and complain when God is abusive toward us. Maybe there is supposed to come a time when we no longer kill people who pick up sticks on the Sabbath. Maybe there comes a time when marrying you sister is incest, taking a second wife is bigamy, and tying your child up and threatening to kill him because you hear God telling you to is insanity and abuse. Maybe we are supposed to read these stories, and realize how horrible some ideas of righteousness are and change our “fundamental beliefs” (to quote Mrs. White.)

    Are you stating that the bible is a book we should read and decide which rules and laws we think we should follow and ignore the rest? Do adventist believe this? I am a fourth generation SDA, and I’ve never heard anyone say such a thing.




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  10. James: Two years and thousands upon thousands of comments at this website…and not a single expression of concern to date that LSU is teaching the second coming. What does this say about our priorities?

    Was ET started to deny that LSU has anyone teaching Christ’s second coming? Isn’t this website about teaching evolution as fact and truth, rather than teaching the biblical truth?




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  11. Professor Kent: If you are supporting Educate Truth’s and Bob Ryan’s position that we must have evidence to believe the Bible’s claim of fiat creation, then you simply do not understand the Seventh-day Adventist Church’s official position. Don’t be misled by Bob “I know spin” Ryan’s unceasing ad hominen attacks. What part(s) of the following do you disagree with?

    This post went on to quote the positions of the GC’s Biblical Research Institute. I was amazed by the number of thumbs down. I am shocked that readers who support Educate Truth have so much animosity against the BRI and their writings.




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  12. Kent debuted here at ET two years ago with proclamations that there was no evidence that the theory of evolution was taught at LSU but since has modified his evolution-free period to the last 1.5 years. He has threatened to leave time after time but never did. Nor has he stopped reminding us us he is persecuted and misunderstood.

    Kent: “Bob, you’ve hardened your heart and gone mad. You wouldn’t know “truth” if it smacked you between the eyes. You’ve proven to every reader here that you are not “in Christ.” Turn off your computer, throw your modem in garbage, and save your soul before it is consumed with hatred and falsehood.”

    Rich then noted that Kent shouldn’t be too upset about people not taking him as seriously as he would like because Kent came here pretending to not be an Adventist but it turned out he actually was an Adventist. The kind that doesn’t see much to worry about administration using vulgarity, drinking alcohol and evading authority albeit.

    It is a little amusing that an observation that Kent tried to make readers think he wasn’t Adventist and the unacceptable tone of his ad hominem post towards Bob (not like the posts he harvested of Bob’s) is met by more ad hominem and – of all things – an accusation of ad hominem. I cannot think of many better text-book examples of projection.

    However, credit where credit is due. Kent is persevering and he did let Bob keep his computer even though he made him throw away his modem. A nice scholar-to-scholar gesture or perhaps a typo yet short of the camaraderie we were waiting to see.
    God bless,

    Rich




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  13. Holly Pham: @Dr. Geraty, Also, how many of the teachers allegedly teaching evolution as fact were hired under your tenure as President of LSU? Were you aware of their beliefs in evolution as fact when you hired them?

    “LSU Science professors hired under Dr. Geraty:
    Larry McCloskey: Full professor and biology department chair in 1996
    Lee Grismer: Biology faculty member since 1994
    http://www.lasierra.edu/departments/biology/faculty.html
    Both strongly promote(d) the evolutionary story of origins in their science classrooms as the true story of origins and discount the SDA notion of a literal creation week as clearly mistaken from a scientific perspective.”

    What is more – much of the work that Bradley claimed he and his fellow biology professors were doing at LSU – was done while Geraty was at the helm.

    This could also be said of the outspoken Fritz Guy (and his fellow professors in the religion department) all of them working to undermine FB#6 while working for Geraty.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  14. @Professor Kent: “Salvation SCIENCE?” Hmmmm…..seems an after-market thingamajig (“science”) got snucked in, like you find a Lada Gaga coupon in your Walmart sack along with the cat litter you bought. So how’s “salvation science” different from plain old tent-meeting baptismal “Salvation”? About like “Christian Science” is different from “Christian”?

    By the way – as our bonus Gaga coupon for you — how’s “hermeneutical criticism” different from regular hermeneutics, already plenty whimsically and casuistically (ergo, er, scientifically) handy?

    But seriously, I’m worried: do we really want to climb into another can of worms? Goodness! the trouble we’ve already had with creation SCIENCE!




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  15. Professor Kent:
    … I have never posted here with initials reflecting my earned degrees after my name.

    The following is public information, readily available, globally, to anyone and everyone online who can access the Spectrum and Google websites and follow web links.

    Author’s name: “Jeffrey Kent”
    http://spectrummagazine.org/authors/jeffrey-kent

    Author’s signature: “Professor Jeffrey Kent, Ph.D.”
    http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2011/04/26/open-letter-educate-truth

    Google search: “jeffrey kent” biology professor
    http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=%22jeffrey+kent%22+biology+professor

    Jeffrey Kent – Volunteer State Community College – RateMyProfessors.com
    * Name: Jeffrey Kent
    * School: Volunteer State Community College
    * Location: Gallatin, TN
    * Department: Biology
    http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=250064

    Jeffrey D. Kent
    B.A., 1972, Slippery Rock University
    M.S., 1974, Slippery Rock University
    Ph.D., 1986, University of Illinois
    Professor of Biology and
    Greenhouse Manager
    Volunteer State Community College
    1480 Nashville Pike
    Gallatin, TN 37066
    (615) 452-8600
    (888) 335-8722
    http://www2.volstate.edu/msd/FAC/bio.htm

    E-Mail: Jeff.Kent@volstate.edu
    Phone: (615) 230-3730
    http://www.volstate.edu/Directory/ (Search entry: “Kent”)

    Mug shot: Professor “Jeff Kent”
    http://www2.volstate.edu/msd/FAC/Jeff%20Kent.JPG




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  16. Here’s to hoping your beliefs can and will be put into action….

    “What Professor Kent Believes

    1. The 28 SDA Fundamental Beliefs. All of them.
    2. SDA FB #6, to include the proposed modification that the creation week was 6 contiguous 24-hour periods.
    3. That the Bible is God’s word, which can be trusted at faith value ahead of human reason and science…..”




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  17. Rev 16 “Three unclean spirits like frogs came out of the mouth of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet”.

    Just out of curiousity – can we classify the dragon as the reptile king instead of Grismer?

    Those who insist that Grismer is the clear winner may differ but I say that the dragon in Rev 16 is the real reptile king.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  18. @Professor Kent:

    Professor Kent July 17, 2011 at 11:08 pm

    What Professor Kent Believes

    1. The 28 SDA Fundamental Beliefs. All of them.
    2. SDA FB #6, to include the proposed modification that the creation week was 6 contiguous 24-hour periods.
    3. That the Bible is God’s word, which can be trusted at faith value ahead of human reason and science.
    4. That a few LSU biologists in times past have been disrespectful of SDA beliefs.
    5. That all SDA employees should treat SDA beliefs with respect.
    6. That the LSU and SDA Church leadership has made a sincere effort to address the LSU situation.
    7. That the LSU biologists have not indoctrinated theistic evolution in the past 1.5 years.
    8. That there is evidence for a recent supernatural creation, but also prickly and difficult contradictory evidence that cannot simply be swept under the carpet.
    9. That the evidence supporting a recent supernatural creation is not supported by “overwhelming evidence” unless one cherry-picks the evidence.
    10. That it is appropriate for SDA biologists to teach the basics of evolutionary theory as well as the evidences that oppose it and support fiat creation.
    15. That 3SG 90-91 declares theistic evolution to be the worst form of infidelity.
    16. That the majority of non-SDA Christians are theistic evolutionists; that many of these individuals have deep respect for the Bible and love their Savior; and that some among them will be in heaven, just like the many of us who are guilty of a diverse range of sins–all of which are very serious.

    I disagree vigorously with the methods of Educate Truth and can articulate where I believe inappropriate conclusions are made and judgments rendered.

    *********
    Thanks for sharing your convictions with us. I am surprised, though, about your strong disagreement and criticism of Educate Truth, since most of your beliefs are shared both by Sean Pitman and Shane Hilde. Could it be that your perception of what Pitman and Hilde stand for is perhaps inaccurate?

    You do state that “the LSU biologists have not indoctrinated theistic evolution in the past 1.5 years.” By this you seem to imply that said teachers did teach theistic evolution before that, which you seem to condemn with the support of the writings of Ellen White.

    You state that “That the LSU and SDA Church leadership has made a sincere effort to address the LSU situation.”

    So here is my question to you: Do you really believe that this “sincere effort to address the LSU situation” would have taken place without the work done by Educate Truth?

    Are not these efforts to implement the necessary corrections the direct result of what Pitman and Hilde have been calling for?

    Can you be humble enough to acknowledge what is patently evident to every honest observer?

    The work of E.T. may not be perfect, but credit should be given where credit is due.

    I am convinced that had not been for the work of these men of God, the situation at LSU would have never been addressed by the church.




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  19. John Kannenberg: You guys who post here a dozen times each day…. get a life!!!

    I live a wonderful life, but I also am interested in our church and its institutions. A true Seventh-day Adventist should be following this website and what it is advocating. We should have thousands more SDA’s posting here.




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  20. Show me one evolutionary atheist that can predict with absolutely 100% accuracy what will happen anywhere in the world next week (or even the next hour) when everything known points in the opposite direction and have it happen down to the tiniest detail and then I might believe in him/her.
    We had a series of small, but deadly tornadoes go through our area a few weeks ago and many were killed and homes and businesses destroyed. One family of four were killed when their home collapsed on top of them. There was absolutely no sign that this would be their very last day on earth. NOBODY could predict any specific thing that would happen except that “there
    could be some serious destruction.”
    My God has predicted over and over again events far into the future and every detail of every prediction that’s time has come has been has been fulfilled in every detail–also over and over again. When
    “Someone” can do that is just what He claims to be–the One and Only TRUE God.
    And, remember, even “scientists” have often had to “back off” and admit something they said has turned out to be questionable–if not downright wrong! My God has never had to do that!
    Everyone is free to believe and trust whoever and whatever they choose–but “as for me and my house” we choose to follow the God of heaven, and He has NEVER led us astray (regardless of what “scientists” might say!

    Lydian




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  21. Professor Kent: Of course, this means that Southern Adventist University teaches theistic evolution. Right?

    This is ridiculous. I’m a recent graduate of this department and the last thing they teach is evolution. They don’t exactly understand it, they attack it frequently, and they push creationism. It’s in their hallways with very nice exhibits.

    The problem at Southern is that they neglect to teach evolution adequately so that students like myself leave knowing too little about evolution. They seem afraid of the topic and want to appear as if they are the only Adventist college that teaches creation (and they are not), so they teach too much creation and not enough evolution.

    The other problem is that they do not teach good science at all. None of the factulty are active in science. They do’nt do research or know how to publish. The main person who pushes creationsim is very nice and means well but is not a very good teacher, is very rigid in his views, and acts like no one else’s theology is “safe.” I have friends that have gone to other Adventist colleges that get involved with research projects (La Sierra, Andrews, Walla Walla) but this does not really happen at Southern, which is very unfortunate.

    I would say that Southern has a very spiritual environment (maybe some of it is more pretend than real) and I felt like I was well prepared for a medical career, but I don’t believe I got my money worth in actual science education.




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  22. Greg: The other problem is that they do not teach good science at all. None of the factulty are active in science. They do’nt do research or know how to publish.

    SAU’s Dr Spencer (among others) has been doing research for years on DNA surviving in conifers long after they were supposed to have decayed away had evolutionist timelines been correct.

    What a pleasure to see that the T.E.s are still as clueless as ever.




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  23. Sorry Bob. I didn’t realize you knew Dr. Spencer. Did you take a class from him too? Yes he has been doing research but he has been unable to publish. He has a lot of projects that he does not get around to completing. Part of the problem is his health and part of the problem is that he just does’nt get to things.

    I actually like what he does and what he did to our hallways was beautiful. But he and the other faculty didn’t teach us enough real science. It was more creationism and medicine (and I have no problem with these). That’s all I’m saying.




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  24. Ervin Taylor: Does Mr. Read really suggest that there is not a “fundamentalist wing” of the SDA Church and the EducateTruth(sic) web site along with the Adventist Theological Society represents this wing of the SDA Church?

    Dr. Taylor, Could you explain what wing you and others are in over at Adventist Today?

    If there is a wing, it must be those who speak outside the majority. Does Adventist Today and Spectrum speak for the majority of adventists?

    If so, why do they need their own websites?




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  25. Even if you disagree with the notion that Darwinism is “real science,” I do think that students at an Adventist college need to be thoroughly exposed to it. You cannot critique evolution if you don’t know what it is.

    Actually, I recently started developing an apologetics curriculum for Adventist colleges. The curriculum I outlined included an apologetics 101–general apologetics; apologetics 201–origins apologetics; apologetics 301–defending unique Adventist doctrines and lifestyle, and apologetics 401–History of Christian apologetical thought.

    I think that the Adventist colleges should offer a semester course on origins apologetics. That would relieve the science faculty of having to teach Darwinism vs. Creationism in science classes, when there is so much real science to teach.




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  26. They should just stop teaching Biology at LSU. That way none of the student will ever hear of evolution.That is until they come out of the bible college bubble and enter the real world.




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  27. Professor Kent: Southern Adventist University indoctrinates evolutionary biology. It’s good enough for you, and it’s good enough for me.

    Prof. Kent, What is the evidence that Southern Adventist indoctrinates evolutionary biology as fact? Do you have any evidence to prove this? Please share i with us.




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  28. Holly,

    After reading more of this thread last night it seems Professor Kent was using Faith’s argument that “by their fruits you shall know them.” He had a former student from Southern who accepted evolutionary theory and he claimed one of Southern’s graduates was one of the top evolutionary biologists. I think he was only pointing out the inconsistency of “by their fruits you shall know them.” I don’t know what Professor Kent knows since he teaches at Vol State near Nashville (I had a classmate who attended there and might know him) he probably knows quite a bit about Southern. As I pointed out above I was at Southern and I can guarantee it does not indoctrinat evolutionary theory.

    Almost all of the students like me believed in creationism so it was unfortunate that we did not learn more about evolution. We did not get a very good understanding of what evolution is all about. I think the professors are afraid to teach it because of so many conservatives. And they primarily teach premedicine rather than real biology so many students do not care. Overall I think my education was decent but those who want to go on to real biology and real science would definitely get a better education elsewhere.




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  29. After Bob Ryan called me a theistic evolutionist and clueless I am getting a better idea why Professor Kent gets frustrated. I have only casually visited this website this past year and assumed Professor Kent was an evolutionist, but now that I’ve read more and ventured to write myself, I’m seeing that anyone who disagrees with the main writers here (like Faith and Bob Ryan) gets labeled and accused of being a liar, evolutionist, making rants, spinning, blah-blah-blah. If anyone puts a spin on things it has to be Bob Ryan. Most of his posts seem to do exactly that.

    I don’t understand why we treat each other like this. Are we all not Christians and called to love one another? Jesus said we should love our enemies.




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  30. Greg (er, InChristBob and quite a few others of various persuasions):

    If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal . . .

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs . . .

    It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres . . .

    And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.




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  31. @Greg, Thank you for your personal information and answer. It seems like you know much more than Prof. Kent about what is going on at Southern Adventist.




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  32. Greg:

    Yes he has been doing research but he has been unable to publish. He has a lot of projects that he does not get around to completing. Part of the problem is his health and part of the problem is that he just does’nt get to things.

    I actually like what he does … But he and the other faculty didn’t teach us enough real science. It was more creationism and medicine

    You seem to be having it “both ways”.

    You want to claim in your posts to me that SAU is not “evolutionist enough” but in your post to Holly you appear to passively support the claim that SAU has the leading evolutionists of our time and is turning out evolutionists as the fruit of their work promoting evolutionism at SAU.

    Then you do the flip flop claiming that “real biology” needs to be grounded in the mythology that birds are coming from reptiles – or else it just is not “real biology”. And you claim that SAU is weak in the department of promoting evolutionism as if it were real science.

    I find your methods somewhat inconsistent.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  33. Greg, One more question, if you don’t mind. Do most biology majors at Southern want to become medical doctors? I know several people who have attended PUC and they say most biology students are premed, predental, etc. Not all get into those schools, but evidently most are trying.




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  34. Jim: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs . . .
    It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres

    That is sooo true.

    So also is this — “true”.

    “Think not that I have come to bring peace.. I have not come to bring peace but a sword”. Matt 10

    “Ministers who are preaching present truth should not neglect the solemn message to the Laodiceans. The testimony of the True Witness is not a smooth message. The Lord does not say to them, You are about right; you have borne chastisement and reproof that you never deserved; you have been unnecessarily discouraged by severity; you are not guilty of the wrongs and sins for which you have been reproved.” {3T 257.2}

    “If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime, and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God” (3T 281

    “Those who have been nearly all their lives controlled by a spirit as foreign to the Spirit of God as was Achan’s will be very passive when the time comes for decided action on the part of all. They will not claim to be on either side. The power of Satan has so long held them that they seem blinded and have no inclination to stand in defense of right. If they do not take a determined course on the wrong side, it is not because they have a clear sense of the right, but because they dare not.” {3T 271.2}

    “Skepticism and unbelief are not humility. Implicit belief in Christ’s word is true humility, true self-surrender” (DA 535).

    “Elijah was declared to be a troubler of Israel, Jeremiah a traitor, Paul a polluter of the temple.

    From that day to this, those who would be loyal to truth have been denounced as seditious, heretical, or schismatic. Multitudes who are too unbelieving to accept the sure word of prophecy, will receive with unquestioning credulity an accusation against those who dare to reprove fashionable sins. This spirit will increase more and more. And the Bible plainly teaches that a time is approaching when the laws of the State shall so conflict with the law of God that whoever would obey all the divine precepts must brave reproach and punishment as an evil-doer.” {GC88 458.2}

    Those who stand firm against conformity to the world, discouraging pride, superfluity, and extravagance, and enjoining humility and self-denial, are looked upon as critical, peculiar, and severe. Some argue that by uniting with worldlings and conforming to their customs, Christians might exert a stronger influence in the world. But all who pursue this course thereby separate from the source of their strength. Becoming friends of the world, they are the enemies of God.” {ST, July 13, 1882 par. 20}

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  35. InChristBob,

    Of course, that was JESUS who said, “I have not come to bring peace but a sword.”

    Just keeping clanging away; I certainly know by now that no one (other than perhaps the Holy Spirit) is going to get you to change your ways . . .




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  36. BobRyan: Then you do the flip flop claiming that “real biology” needs to be grounded in the mythology that birds are coming from reptiles – or else it just is not “real biology”. And you claim that SAU is weak in the department of promoting evolutionism as if it were real science.

    Good God. Are you insane? I never suggested anything like this.




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  37. Holly Pham: Do most biology majors at Southern want to become medical doctors? I know several people who have attended PUC and they say most biology students are premed, predental, etc. Not all get into those schools, but evidently most are trying.

    Yes this is true of Southern. I think it’s safe to say it’s true of all our biology departments.

    I merely pointed out that we should have learned more about evolution so that we would be better prepared to deal with it in the real world and in graduate school. I did not suggest we should be taught evolution as fact or that birds come from reptiles as fact. Bob Ryan is going totally psycho on this. And I think the biology faculty should be more into research which they do not have time for with their heavy teaching loads and have become rusty. Because they are expected to teach a premed program they definately neglect real science.

    I think the pre-med agenda, fear of teaching evolution material (as background understanding, not as fact) and the heavy teaching loads all make Southern weak for basic science, which is unfortunate. But it’s okay for pre-professionals and teachers. Just my honest opinion.




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  38. I know Lee Spencer, and he is well qualified. He knows his natural history both the Darwinist and creationist. I’d be curious as to why he’s having a hard time publishing, but I know Art Chadwick is doing outstanding science on his dinosaur dig but hasn’t published much except for abstracts. I know both will publish some good stuff in the future.




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  39. David Read: Actually, I recently started developing an apologetics curriculum for Adventist colleges. The curriculum I outlined included an apologetics 101–general apologetics; apologetics 201–origins apologetics; apologetics 301–defending unique Adventist doctrines and lifestyle, and apologetics 401–History of Christian apologetical thought.
    I think that the Adventist colleges should offer a semester course on origins apologetics.

    In all honesty, I don’t think your ideas will fly. At Southern there are too many classes to take as it is. And Southern already offers a semester course on origins apologetics. The Biology students take Issues of Natural Science and Religion and other students can take Issues in Science and Society. Dr. Spencer usually teaches these but others have too. Why does the word “apologetics” need to be in a course title?




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  40. If it is covered, then it’s covered. No need to have the word apologetics in the course title, as long as students are being exposed to the arguments in support of our faith.




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  41. Greg, Thank you for your honest information. I’ve never been to Tennessee, but I have a relative that may go to school either at Southern Adventist or Univ. of Tenn.




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  42. BobRyan: Then you do the flip flop claiming that “real biology” needs to be grounded in the mythology that birds are coming from reptiles – or else it just is not “real biology”.

    You’re being unfair, especially when you engage in the same type of argument when you claim to take the Bible at its word, yet can’t acknowledge the simplicity of something as simple as the creation of stars on the fourth day of creation.




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  43. First we get this bit of pure fiction

    Greg: The other problem is that they do not teach good science at all. None of the factulty are active in science. They do’nt do research or know how to publish.

    Then we get this response to the fiction above —

    BobRyan:
    SAU’s Dr Spencer (among others) has been doing research for years on DNA surviving in conifers long after they were supposed to have decayed away had evolutionist timelines been correct.

    And David Read adds –

    David Read: I know Lee Spencer, and he is well qualified. He knows his natural history both the Darwinist and creationist. I’d be curious as to why he’s having a hard time publishing, but I know Art Chadwick is doing outstanding science on his dinosaur dig but hasn’t published much except for abstracts. I know both will publish some good stuff in the future.

    Followed by Greg’s flip-flop – where he admits he knew full well that his opening claim above was factually wrong.

    Greg: Yes he (Dr. Spencer) has been doing research but he has been unable to publish. He has a lot of projects that he does not get around to completing. Part of the problem is his health and part of the problem is that he just does’nt get to things.

    I actually like what he does and what he did to our hallways was beautiful. But he and the other faculty didn’t teach us enough real science. It was more creationism …

    The posts speak for themselves.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  44. Bob, lots of people claim to do research and they may well obtain data, but until they publish it they have contributed nothing to science. Until it is subjected to peer review and published in a peer-reviewed journal we do not know whether the research was done well. A lot of research is done very poorly.

    Ironically, this was taught to us at Southern in the course Introduction to Biological Research. So let me reiterate, none of the factulty are active in science. They don’t do research (that yields anything of substance) or know how to publish.




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  45. If you visit the biology department websites at other Adventist universities you can readily compare the faculty research with Southern. Faculty and students publish together at Andrews, Walla Walla, PUC, and La Sierra. We didn’t get that at Southern. Medicine and creationism are all they really care about.

    Several years ago we interviewed two recent graduates from Loma Linda University who were publishing research on birds and snakes but they were rejected only because Dr. Spencer wanted someone who does origins research. We ended up hiring his wife who is an MD. Go figure. And good faculty like Dr. Trimm who wants to do research has no time for it because he is stuck with a heavy teaching load.




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  46. Good luck with that request, Greg–and, by the way, welcome to InChristBob’s little world! You’re certainly not the first person to have their words twisted by InChristBob.

    InChristBob generally lives in his own little reality, where he is simply smarter than all others. Hence he never has to admit he is ever wrong, let alone apologize for anything he ever says or does (neither of which he ever seems to have done). Oh, and he only has to pay lip service to the words of I Cor. 13, before quickly picking up his ‘sword’ again and resorting to strings of EGW quotes.

    Most readers simply end up ignoring him, and have for years.

    Greg, you seem like a very nice person, and I recommend you do the same . . .




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  47. Greg: If you visit the biology department websites at other Adventist universities you can readily compare the faculty research with Southern. Faculty and students publish together at Andrews, Walla Walla, PUC, and La Sierra. We didn’t get that at Southern. Medicine and creationism are all they really care about.

    There are a number of programs at SAU where students are engaged with faculity in research projects. Dr. Spencer’s is a good example of such programs.

    When you stated the fiction below it was unclear as to whether you were deliberately stating falsehood or were simply clueless yet whining nonetheless.

    Greg said: The other problem is that they do not teach good science at all. None of the factulty are active in science. They do’nt do research or know how to publish.

    I gave you the benefit of the doubt by supposing you were merely clueless.

    But then you removed all doubt when you said –

    Greg said: Yes he (Dr. Spencer) has been doing research but he has been unable to publish. He has a lot of projects that he does not get around to completing. Part of the problem is his health …

    You let it be known that you were fully aware that your first statement was factually incorrect.

    So much for giving you the benefit of the doubt…

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  48. Jim, you are absolutely correct. Lost cause. In-Christ-my-aching-back. And I can tell by the way the guy writes he is not a product of Southern’s program and knows very little about it. The guys is nothing more than a finely honed put-down artist (as evidenced by his language: “deliberately stating falsehood”, “clueless”, “whining”.)

    Of course the guy could prove me wrong by showing ONE publication in a peer reviewed journal by a faculty member in the last 5 or even 10 years. Better yet one with a student coauthor. I’m not sure a Southern student has ever been an author on a paper. Compare that to Andrews, Walla Walla, PUC, and La Sierra, where numerous faculty and students publish, doing real science. My point stands.




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  49. For the record, 1) I am NOT a theistic evolutionist nor have I ever suggested it to be “the true model of origins.” 2) I have NEVER suggested anything like the view that conservative Adventists (of whom I coun myself) are “the type that fly planes into buildings.” (Hopefully that denial will make less “scary” the fact that I have been the president of an Adventist institution.)3)

    Dr. Geraty, I am not scared of what you claim you believe but more concerned of the legacy you have left at La Sierra!

    Also, you haven’t addressed your public support of gay marriage, for which you were so willing to present on videos I have seen.

    Your lack of support of our adventist doctrines should be a concern to all bible-believing adventists. How did you ever get appointed or elected to run one of our educational institutions?




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  50. Some of us prefer to look ahead rather than behind, and for that we become the target of insults, scorned for the way we think and reason.

    Prof. Kent, Your argument is very similar to Dr. Taylor’s who says he and his supporters are really the ones who have the present truth, since he is looking forward and not stuck in the old fashioned days of Ellen White, etc.

    If you look on Adventist Today, Dr. Taylor even implies that Mrs. White wrote the Book of Mormon.

    Is this type of thinking part of mainstream adventism? Nowhere that I know of, except maybe at La Sierra?




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  51. I don’t understand why we treat each other like this. Are we all not Christians and called to love one another? Jesus said we should love our enemies.

    Greg, I understand your concerns. But, this website is a battleground arena for a very important issue. I have only been posting for a few weeks, but I have read many of the previous posts.

    If you don’t believe me about this issue, please go to Adventist Today and Spectrum and view the many articles and posts attacking Shane, Sean, and virtually anyone here who supports them. Both of these sites want Shane, Sean, and ET to go away, as Dr. Taylor predicted over a year ago. But they haven’t.

    This is why many of the posts seem antagonistic or aggressive, from both sides. Love sometimes is and seems tough.




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  52. BobRyan: At one point on this thread – I said –Given that the T.E. element within LSU flourished and expanded unrestricted during your time at LSU – which of the Creationist versions listed above would you prefer to identify yourself with?in Christ,Bob

    Bob, Has Dr. Geraty ever answered a question put to him? He seems to like to broadcast statements and appear on LLBN, but when someone questions him about what he says or believes, he disappears.




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