Ted Wilson: “We will not flinch. We will not be deterred.”

Church President Says He Won’t “Flinch” on Creation Issue
BY MICHAEL W. CAMPBELL

Ted Wilson

The Seventh-day Adventist Church will stand firm for the things that we have understood to be the pillars of faith. “We will not flinch. We will not be deterred.” world – church president Ted Wilson stated July 1 during the session’s “Yes, Creation!” lecture series. Wilson’s Thursday presentation, titled “God’s Literal, Six-Day, Recent Creation “The Church’s Position,” drew a standing-room-only crowd, with many people turned away at the door because of lack of space.

Wilson’s presentation was one of several of the series held during the 10-day international event and sponsored by the Geoscience Research Institute.

Although Wilson’s new responsibilities as world church president will prevent him from continuing in many of his previous roles, he shared his intent to remain chair of the Geoscience Research Institute board, a position he’s held since 1999.

“I am so proud of our Geoscience Research Institute and Faith and Science Council,” Wilson said at the beginning of his presentation. “These organizations, along with the Biblical Research Institute, form the core defense for God’s great Word – the Word of God.”

“What an incredible Creator; what an incredible God,” Wilson noted, after reading Revelation 4:1-11. “Praise God for the intellectuals who presented their faith during the ‘Yes, Creation!’ [lecture] series right here at General Conference session. You learn many wonderful things, including the strong evidence for God as the Creator.

“Unfortunately, there are those who dismiss Genesis 1-11 as allegorical, [as] nice stories but only symbolic,” he added. “I want to tell you . . . that God created this world in six literal, consecutive, contiguous, 24-hour days of recent origin.” (Read more)

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83 thoughts on “Ted Wilson: “We will not flinch. We will not be deterred.”

  1. I can’t think of a better man for the job than elder Ted Wilson. His address at the GC made it clear that he stands firmly on all the solid pillars of the Adventist faith, including the LORD’s prophet, Ellen White 
    Let us put our prayers and full support behind Elder Wilson as we prepare to finish the work of the 3 angels and go home.
     
    Steve Billiter
    http://everlasting-gospel.blogspot.com/




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  2. I especially like what he said here:

    “I want to see that all Seventh-day Advent ist teachers, whether they are theologians or science teachers, believe and accept the biblical creation as the church has voted and understood it. That is our goal, and that is what we need to move toward.”




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  3. From all that I have been able to read in the GC bulletins and from Hope TV it appears that Elder Ted Wilson will solidly support our traditional stand in regards to creation, the world wide flood, and what the Lord revealed to Ellen White about those issues. This pleases me greatly as I have been very concerned over the statements of some of our theologians and scientists who have taken a differnt tack.




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  4. Good job Ted Wilson! Don’t flinch a bit.

    Long ages of creation are a relatively recent phenomenon to justify evolutionary philosophy. I used to believe day-age and/or gap models were credible, until I realized they had a number of linguistic and logical problems, and that my view was not based on the Bible’s language or historical views, but simply to accommodate long age concepts. These models were constructed in the nineteenth century in an attempt to harmonize evolutionary dogma with the Biblical text. Long ages were touted as ‘proven’ by science, and therefore it seemed necessary to force the Bible’s language to conform to this supposed scientific fact even if this created linguistic, logical and historical inconsistencies.

    I am unable to find any credible reference to a theologian prior to the 19th century who specifically suggested that the Genesis day was longer than 24 hours, or that the creation week was longer than seven days. It wasn’t until Darwinism took hold that this phenomenon occurred.

    Christians are commanded to guard that which we have been entrusted with, and turn aside from oppositions (Gr. antithesis) of science “falsely so called” (I Tim. 6:20). Long age interpretations of Genesis 1–11 are not exegetically defensible and such hermeneutics in Genesis 1–11 cannot be consistently applied to the rest of Scripture without seriously damaging or destroying the Bible’s teaching. The literal creation week interpretation is the overwhelmingly dominant view in the history of Christendom.

    Moreover, an increasingly large percentage of today’s leading scientists believe in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and this is now an established one way trend. To understand this recent turn of events, see Intelligent Design vs. Evolution — The Miracle of Intelligent Design.

    When we see the Lord, I’m afraid many are going to wonder they doubted His clear eyewitness testimony based on wild and unfounded speculations of men who weren’t there.




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  5. Hello all great debaters.

    As leader, Ted Wilson has certainly made clear cut, unambiguous statements as to the church’s position. He was elected democratically. Thus his statements and position in the church should be respected.

    It is apparent that many disagree and their voices of protest should be heard and respected. It does little good to vilify dissent as simply the influence of the devil. Good people often disagree, but all should be respected who act in good faith and conscience. But the leadership of the church should be treated with respect as well.

    As an agnostic, I am following this current phase of the SDA with great interest. I hope that you can find cooperative solutions that can prevent a schism between the conservative forces and progressive forces of the church. If not, as many of you have said, the progressives that do not support the stated views of the church will likely have to leave or elect someone that will represent their views.

    Interesting times.

    Best regards
    Ken




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  6. The “Yes, Creation!” talks were well-attended throughout the GC session. The interest in the worldwide church (and especially the western church) in these issues is at an all time high.

    Since there is no greater point of departure between our worldview and the world’s than in the area of origins, there will be battles to be fought…but so very tragically, many of those battles will be within our own borders.

    Elder Wilson will need his armor….




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  7. I hope that Elder Wilson will have the strength not to cave in when the going gets tough. My personal prayer is that he will (if he hasn’t already) open his heart up to the 1888 Message, the writings of Jones and Waggoner, the “beginning of the latter rain.”




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  8. Well I have recieved some negative emails right away a week after Mr. Wilson was elected, I knew I would. Satan hates that he is in there counteracting the counterfeit! God will guide his feet. I wish all sda’s could get that sermon he gave! It would have a revival and a renewing of the reformation!! Praise God for strong men who will stand up for our GOD!May he never waver.Amen.




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  9. It’s just sad that many of our brother’s and sisters in some places (LLU & LSU) are blinded by how this world works. Even if Elder Ted Wilson reaffirms our Creation doctrine over and over again, it won’t budge them. Some of the evolution sympathizers even call us who are faithful witch hunters and inquisitors for laying a hand or even caring for what goes around some of our universities.

    These are hard times. The creation doctrine is on the attack and it will cause doubts here and there. But one thing is for sure. God will always be in our midst as we engage on this battle of principles and facts. This is not Science vs Religion. This is Good vs Evil.




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  10. @Ken:

    Ken – thank you for wishing us well.

    As you may know – various Christian denominations over the centuries have given up on a number of basic doctrines. Some reject the entire Old Testament, the divinity of Christ, the literal bodily resurrection of Christ, the post-tribulation rapture, the pre-millennial 2nd coming, the spiritual gifts of 1Cor 12 etc. You name it, there is probably one Christian group or another that has back pedaled on that point.

    However some doctrines actuall “define” a certain group. For example “Believers baptism by emersion” is key to the Baptist faith just as the “sola scriptura” testing of all doctrine was key to mainline Protestant groups.

    Seventh-day Adventists – are distinctively focused on a literal understanding of “Remember The Sabbath day… SIX days you shall labor…for in SIX days the Lord MADE the heavens and the earth the sea and all that is in them and rested on the seventh-day” Ex 20:8-11.

    We are distinctively focused on a literal pre-mill post-trib bodily second coming of Christ.
    We are distinctively focused on a literal understanding of the 2300 year Sanctuary doctrine with a real heavenly sanctuary and Christ as our Real High Priest in real literal heaven for real literal saints according to the real Word of God.

    We get there by using the Historical/Grammatical model for exegeting scripture and by holding that all 66 books of Scripture are “inspired by God and to be used for doctrine” 2Tim 3:16.

    Belief in evolution has nearly wiped out the Christian Church in Europe so that now many historians consider Europe to be a “post-Christian” age with the % of per-capita attendance in Christian churches down about 90% from what it was in the 1950′s.

    As devastating as evolution is to Christianity in general – it is even more effective in wiping out all Adventist distinctives because so many of them are central to a Gospel that includes “Worship Him who CREATED the Heavens the earth the seas and the springs of water”.

    So while some form of distinctive Lutheran or Episcopal church doctrine may remain when married to evolutionism – no portion of the Adventist distinctive remains except by virtue of “culture, custom, or tradition” when one tries to marry Adventist doctrine to the doctrines on origins found in evolution.
    By contrast if this were a debate about the “age of rocks” before life was created in Genesis 1:2-2:3 (so Genesis 1:1) our doctrines would survive “differences”. In fact even if this were a debate about the degree of inspiration that was given to Ellen White, or a debate as to whether the churh manual should be viewed as canon law, or a debate about Bible translations, or a debate about the fate of gentiles who never knew the Gospel – various opinions could be had and our doctrines (as found in the 28 Fundamental Beliefs) would still survive quite well.

    But if we were to go after the Creation event itself – and argue for deconstructing Genesis as well as the 4th commandment, our entire platform of distinctive teaching quickly reduces to a liberal Lutheran or some other liberal protestant minimalist position that is devoid of all Adventists distinctives (except of course by reason of tradition, culture, nostalgia, preference).




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  11. Interesting that he says he is very proud of the GRI when they clearly said during the discussion that there is ‘no model’ of scientifically credible recent creationism that can be taught in our universities.




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  12. It sounds like God has placed someone with a strong backbone in charge. Although I am one of the most cynical here, I do see progress being made. However, we have a LONG way to go!




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  13. It’s just sad that many of our brother’s and sisters in some places (LLU & LSU) are blinded by how this world works. Even if Elder Ted Wilson reaffirms our Creation doctrine over and over again, it won’t budge them. Some of the evolution sympathizers even call us who are faithful witch hunters and inquisitors for laying a hand or even caring for what goes around some of our universities. These are hard times. The creation doctrine is on the attack and it will cause doubts here and there. But one thing is for sure. God will always be in our midst as we engage on this battle of principles and facts. This is not Science vs Religion. This is Good vs Evil.  (Quote)

    Bill, I agree with you. The battle has just begun, but we do seem to have someone who actually supports God’s Word. I hope and pray it’s not just “lip-service.” Why? The liberals and secular humanists have already started to attack Elder Wilson. He needs our prayers and total support in this matter. I plan to email him with my support and urge all those who support this website to do the same. We should generate thousands if not tens of thousands in his support!




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  14. @Ken, the church voted for Ted Wilson b/c we wanted a leader who leads according to scripture, not according to “openess” (as defined by “progressives”, or may I say “detractors”). I am sorry you are an agnostic, a position that I believe most everyone in our church believes there is no room for, as far as leadership. Why would anyone want to be just a “cultural” Advnentist? There are too many rules and regulations to follow if there may not be a God requiring them.

    Better to love Him who we KNOW is real and keep His commandments. Amen for a leader with some “Moses” back bone.

    Jason




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  15. I agree with several above comments that it is a shame dissenters fear a witch hunt, but what if we really see them as witches: those deceived and promoting fallacy against the church? SHOULDn’t they be hunted?!

    Now think carefully about what you just answered… and consider your future actions. The quality of men is not shown in easy times, but when difficulty strikes. Remember your commitment to your neighbor, and

    We’re protecting this: (FTA)
    Wilson allowed that “we don’t have all the answers,” but that evidence does exist for a biblical creation and a global flood; evidence, he said, of “a loving God who created us in His image rather than a God . . . [who devolves] into a meaningless process . . . called theistic evolution.”

    By insisting this:
    “Unfortunately, there are those who dismiss Genesis 1–11 as allegorical, [as] nice stories but only symbolic,” he added. “I want to tell you . . . that God created this world in six literal, consecutive, contiguous, 24-hour days of recent origin.”

    as though there are only two options. Could this over-simplification lead to problems? I say yes. If nothing else, the insistence that any deviation from the party-line isolates us from witnessing to those “educated in the world” as well as from other Christians, and most of the world.

    We can agree on the protection – God is AWESOME! and He has demonstrated His caring for us. He desperately wants us to know this, and to rescue us sin. So much that He has made Himself personally available through prayer with no need for an intercessor. Go and use it.. not to request but to listen with an open heart.




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  16. I think the question now is: What power does the President of the GC have over a University that is owned by the Pacific Union Conference?

    Since nobody believes that the professors in question will “see the light” and change their views on origins (or more impoirtantly stop teaching evolution at truth) – if change is to come to LSU the professors would have to be dismissed in addition to some administrators.

    Again, can this occur with enough pressure from above? Who? Where?

    Or does the pressure need to come from “below” (i.e. Parents paying for their childs education)?

    It will be interesting to see what occurs.

    Perhaps LSU will cease to be an Adventist University.




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  17. if change is to come to LSU the professors would have to be dismissed in addition to some administrators.Again, can this occur with enough pressure from above?Who? Where?Or does the pressure need to come from “below” (i.e. Parents paying for their childs education)?It will be interesting to see what occurs.

    The pressure needs to come from both above and below. Will it? I believe there will be some but maybe not enough. LSU and its supporters are well entrenched and will fight any attempt to change anything.




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  18. @Ken, the church voted for Ted Wilson b/c we wanted a leader who leads according to scripture, not according to “openess” (as defined by “progressives”, or may I say “detractors”). Amen for a leader with some “Moses” back bone.Jason  

    Jason, I agree with you 100%. “Openess” leads to “anything goes” as we have seen at LSU. Do we want this type of “openess” in our Church. Well, the liberals do! The Bible, however, does not support this idea. Who are we to believe? God’s Word or our liberal “friends?”




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  19. When Walla Walla faced a similar problem more than 10 years ago – Folkenberg spoke directly with the Union President to then have the necessary action taken at Walla Walla.

    It is not out of the question that a GC president might have influence with the Union. However I don’t know all the options.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  20. Bravus says:
    July 15, 2010 Interesting that he says he is very proud of the GRI when they clearly said during the discussion that there is ‘no model’ of scientifically credible recent creationism that can be taught in our universities. Bravus(Quote)

    Turns out – GRI does not speak “with one voice”. Clausen was trying to argue for no science in support of Creation – while Roth and others argued explicitly for evidence of young life and even in some examples young earth.

    Roth ended his presentation with “so don’t let anyone tell you that there is no scientific evidence supporting young life creation”.

    Maybe “that” is the part of the GRI mindset that Wilson was endorsing.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  21. As one who was quite involved in working through to the resolution of the issues at Walla Walla about 10 years ago, I would like to say to Bob that the issues at Walla Walla had nothing to do with creation. Please be sure you have the facts before making comments involving other entities by name or drawing parallels to others by name.




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  22. I do not know Ted Wilson. I like what he has said before the session. Trust however is not just a word, it is something that must be earned. I don’t mean to be cynical, but I struggle with the thought of someone who has be advanced and moved into a variety of administrative positions, and who’s career has been orchestrated so as to make the position of General Conference President probable and now actual. Can anyone doubt that from the time he was a young man Elder Ted Wilson has been groomed and guided to this moment in time. I want to believe that such grooming was completely and totally at the instigation of the Holy Spirit, and not by human sources. So far it sounds good. Time will bring the truth or the lie to what has been said and proposed. I personally pray that He (Ted Wilson) is exactly what he has said he is. If he is, then we need to rejoice and be exceeding glad for he is the man we need for this hour. I will pray that he is that man, and that words will become action and reality. I would pose one question. Why is it that progressive agenda’s are always seen as forward movement, and conservative ideas and actions are always branded as witch hunts? If one’s argument cannot carry the day, then it seems that they resort to insinuation, intimidation and name calling. If a there is a witch then they need at least to be a witch somewhere else rather than in our institutions of higher learning. I would hope we can all agree to that.




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  23. Pastor Brehms, (Although your question may have been rhetorical.)

    Progressives (liberals) describe their ideas as “forward” because it sounds like we’re moving to somewhere “better” (better in line with humanistic philosophies) and away from the old-fashioned and archaic ideas of the “fundamentalists” who believe God’s Word.

    Conservative ideas are called “backward” and “witch hunts” because the progressives don’t want anyone to be “left out.” Yeh, we must all accept and respect all ideas, no matter how they conflict with bible truths, in order to be “open-minded” which we have discussed previously.

    Did God accept the Witch of Endor and her ideas? [edit]




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  24. Re Bob’s Quote on Adventism v other Christian denominations

    Dear Bob

    That was extremely well stated and valuable. It helps me to further understand and respect the unique aspect of your faith.

    Thank you
    Ken




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  25. I am very much encouraged by what I have heard so far by Ted Wilson. I Pray the Holy Spirit will guide him daily. He may be the man of the hour a man of God’s own chooseing. To stand firm for the truth of God’s word and how He has lead this church. We are a movement not a stand still church. This world is waxing old like a garment. We need men are honest true as the neddle is to the pole. Who will stand firm in the Lord though the heavens may fall. May there be a reformation among God’ people that we stand unified in the dortrines of God word and the pillars of our Faith. May our hearts be melted, molded shaped by the hand of a loving God. May we trust in our Great High Priest Jesus. Looking to Him who will lead us to the Promise land. May we remain faithful to Jesus and hasten His coming.




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  26. We must be in earnest prayer for Elder Wilson as he has stated his position; one which will not and is not popular with the “progressive” element within leadership. We must hold up his hands as he moves forward in face of serious opposition. Has he been sent for such an hour as this? Only time will tell. May God be with Elder Wilson, and may he be comforted and strengthened through difficult times.




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  27. I think Ted Wilson’s repeated and emphatic use of the phrase, “Go forward,” was a direct strike at the idea of “progressive” Adventism. Everything in his “forward” march is completely against the grain of “progressive” Adventism.

    It is important to check the “progressives” in their word plays. Obviously the phrase “progressive” sounds forward-moving, positive. But to the other major segment of the church, it is anything but. Put another way, when a “conservative” (i.e, a member faithful to the church’s fundamentals) hears the word “progressive” these days, they are likely to think first “liberal” and then somewhere in the back of their mind another word along the lines of “backslidden.” This is because “progressives” are really regressives. Nearly everything they advocate is not post-SDA, but pre-SDA; not derived from our unique and biblical message, but rooted in philosophies and viewpoints that predate Adventism and that were rightly rejected by our spiritual forebears.

    If/when “progressives” split from the church, I am suggesting this new, progressive name for their group: the Rainbow Diversity Movement of Post-Seventh-day Humanists (RDMPSDH). It’s a bit long, I know. They can go by just RDM for short. RDM members believe everything SDAs believe, except: the Bible is not a clear and trustworthy guide in all matters of faith and doctrine; Genesis cannot be taken as a literal and historical account; miracles may never have happened; Jesus may not have been divine, nor actually resurrected (except in the metaphysical sense); there is no sanctuary in heaven; the second coming may not literally occur; traditional SDA prophetic views are all wrong; we should have gay pastors; Ellen White was not inspired; you can do whatever “makes you feel spiritual or refreshed” on “whichever Sabbath works best for you”; the atonement is a myth, God (or whatever Significant Power you worship) simply wants to be your friend; sin is not really that dreadfully bad, but if anything lowers your self-esteem, you should quit it; no one should insist on belief in angels or demons, since we can’t prove they exist; you can eat and drink whatever you want, as long as it’s legal (or you do it very secretly and it doesn’t hurt anyone else); there is no biblical view of marriage, nor of “male” or “female” qualities, nor of appropriate sexual activity; and RDM members reserve the right to drop anything else deemed “unscientific” or “embarrassing” from their list of beliefs.




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  28. When our daughter attended PUC in the late 1990’s, she told us her science teacher at the time said there was way more “evidence” for evolution than for creation and the only way to believe creation is purely faith in the Bible. Any creationists with a science background want to comment on that? My faith in creation over a literal 6 days is unshakeable but I’d be interested in some scientific responses.




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  29. Your daughter was taught well as ours will be. Wilson’s objective is lunacy and his objective is unattainable nor desirable. University is not indoctrination and it will never be that way if accreditation and relevancy is valued by us. These are higher education institutions and not churches after all.




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  30. @Shane Hilde: In other words, we want our professors to be uncredible instructors. We want to indoctrinate instead of teach. We want to start with the the end in mind and eliminate true research and discovery. We want to create clones of ourselves. We declare that there is nothing more to learn. We declare that medical doctors now dictate scientific approach. … You can have it! Me and mine will not.




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  31. @Bobbie Vedvick:

    Bobbie,

    I think you’ve asked a very important question. I will begin with a bit of background. I have a masters degree in Mathematics, and a PhD in Statistics. I have taught for 25 years in SDA colleges and universities, including LSU, LLU, PUC, and SWAU. I have been a statistical consultant on quite a number of research projects in fields such as medicine, dentistry, agronomy, entomology, animal science, nutrition, education, psychology, nursing, and others. Statistics is the backbone of modern science. It is the embodiment of the scientific method. With this background I have several observations.

    First, my views about origins have never had ANYTHING to do with the experiments on which I have collaborated. I have worked with believers and non-believers, and no one has ever cared what I believed, nor has it ever been even remotely relevant. Great science can be and is done by both evolutionists and creationists every day. That part of science that concerns itself with the practical issues of how we understand life as it currently is, and how we interact with our current environment, is completely independent of the practitioner’s views regarding origins. It is my opinion that a lot of energy has been wasted in speculation as to how we got where we are that could have been used to better our current condition. It is not Bible thumpers who have set back science, it is good scientists spending an inordinate amount of time speculating on origins. Time that could have been used to advance our understanding of where we actually are now.

    Second, I don’t see this as a scientific argument. True science involves the scientific method of hypothesis followed by the design of experiments to lend evidence one way or the other regarding the hypothesis in question. It is necessary that these experiments can be repeated. It is very rare, if ever, in the study of origins that this method can be strictly followed. History only happens once. It is circular reasoning to conclude that we can repeat even small aspects of history in the lab, because it assumes that we know what to repeat!

    Instead I see the models of the law as representing the debate over origins much more accurately. To be very specific, I see this debate as being very similar to civil law (as opposed to criminal law) because understanding origins scientifically “beyond reasonable doubt” is a joke. History is self-destructive of the vast majority of “evidence” that might be available. What we can observe in the earth at present are only tiny remnants of what was once here.

    I find an excellent analogy to this debate in the novel “The Brothers Karamazov.” It is a story about a father who is murdered. One of his sons is found with blood on his hands and many other bits of incriminating “evidence” and is found guilty. All the while, the reader knows that it is another son who did it. Any good lawyer will tell you that there is no amount of circumstantial evidence that will truly prove a case. There are many ways that a relatively few discrete points of evidence could come to be. This, I believe is exactly the type of evidence that “supports” both views of origins.

    All this being said, where do I stand? I believe absolutely in the Bible’s obvious commitment to a literal, recent, six-day creation. I believe this because I have personally met the God who says He did it. So, in a since I agree with your daughter’s professor — it is a matter of faith. However, I do not agree with the notion that the preponderance of evidence is in favor of evolution and that my faith must stand alone in a vacuum. The view of modern science is actually based on a considerable amount of circular reasoning. It is actually assumed that there has been no outside intervention by God. Small wonder then that the conclusions drawn don’t include the outside intervention of God.

    Mrs. White said it best.

    Many, especially those who are young in the Christian life, are at times troubled with the suggestions of skepticism. There are in the Bible many things which they cannot explain, or even understand, and Satan employs these to shake their faith in the Scriptures as a revelation from God. They ask, “How shall I know the right way? If the Bible is indeed the word of God, how can I be freed from these doubts and perplexities?”{CSA 45.1}

    God never asks us to believe, without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. His existence, His character, the truthfulness of His word, are all established by testimony that appeals to our reason; and this testimony is abundant. Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who really desire to know the truth will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith. {CSA 46.1}

    In its human wisdom the world knows not God. Its wise men gather an imperfect knowledge of God through his created works, and then in their foolishness exalt nature and the laws of nature above nature’s God. Nature is an open book which reveals God. All who are attracted to nature may behold in it the God that created them. But those who have not a knowledge of God, in their acceptance of the revelation God has made of himself in Christ, will obtain only an imperfect knowledge of God in nature. This knowledge, so far from giving elevated conceptions of God, so far from elevating the mind, the soul, the heart, and bringing the whole being into conformity to the will of God, will make men idolaters. Professing to be wise, they become as fools.– U. T., July 3, 1898. {HL 293.3}

    Keep the faith!

    George Hilton




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  32. thanks for sharing those thoughts Michael! I believe that it is important for use to see where the end of “progressive” theology lies. Taking something to the final conclusion often helps in seeing beginning error.

    blessings,

    Jim




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  33. Bobbie,

    Just a thought. If you don’t believe in a miracle working all powerful God, then evolution makes more sense. If you study science believing in an all powerful miracle working God, your faith will be strengthened by what you see. So, in short, if you study science believing in the God of the Bible as the Bible describes Him – your faith will likely be strengthened. If you are unsure in what you believe, evolution will provide “evidence” of origins.

    I for one trust the authority of the Word of God and for me, science simply reaffirms my belief in a Creator God.

    blessings,
    Jim




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  34. Bobbie, I would like to add a thought to my above comment. There are Biologists who don’t have the presupposition of an all powerful God who in their study of science have come to the conclusion of intelligent design. They can’t except the evolutionary model. In fact, sometimes, it seems that those who study biology without “any” presuppositions seem to come to a knowledge of an higher being – our Creator God.

    blessings,
    Jim




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  35. @Shane Hilde: In other words, we want our professors to be uncredible instructors.We want to indoctrinate instead of teach.We want to start with the the end in mind and eliminate true research and discovery.We want to create clones of ourselves. We declare that there is nothing more to learn.We declare that medical doctors now dictate scientific approach.…You can have it!Me and mine will not.  

    Corrected version: We want our teachers to be credible in heaven’s eyes, even if that means being not credible in the eyes of worldly accrediting bodies. We want our teachers to teach subjects in a way that is in harmony with Bible truth, instead of indoctrinating our young people with popular errors. We want to keep our youth out of areas of philosophy and ideology that God has forbidden, so they can blossom in every area of worthwhile research and discovery. We want to create a united body of believers. There is so much more to learn! We declare that God has laid the foundation principles that should guide all academic inquiry, including the pursuit of scientific knowledge.




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  36. @Mark T: You seem to be equating belief and acceptance of the biblical creation with eliminating “true research and discovery,” or declaring “there is nothing more to learn,” or “medical doctors now dictate scientific approach”?

    1. To claim belief and acceptance in the biblical creation eliminates true research and discovery is to be ignorant of history. There have been 100s, if not 1000s, of scientists that believed and accepted the biblical creation who also contributed a great deal to the sciences. Whether you are a creationist or an evolutionist has nothing to do with whether or not you can do “true research and discovery.”

    2. Declaring the theory of evolution as essentially fact isn’t declaring there is nothing more to learn? Just because we know approximately when (about 6,000 years ago within 6 days), how (God’s spoken word), and who (God) created our earth and all life does not mean there is nothing more to learn. What scientist who believes and accepts the biblical creation believes in that? I’ve never heard of or met one.

    3. No one that I know is suggesting this. Essentially you made a lot of assertions with no support or evidence.




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  37. Mark’s malarkey is simply another version of the nothing makes sense in science unless you accept Darwinian evolution [edit]. Thousands of actual “scientists” DO science today without believing in Darwinian evolution. True scientific research is done daily without any reference to “evolution.”




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  38. Many thanks to George Hilton and Jim Mcdonald for your comments. George, your in depth response was put very well from a truly educated background, and Jim, after reading your comments I thought about it and you’re absolutely right. Thanks again….my daughter’s remarks have “lingered” in my mind for years.




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  39. @Mark T:
    What education is “Higher” than crediting creation to our Creator? He deserves “all” honor and praise!  

    What education is “higher?” Well, according to liberals, humanistic philosophies such as evolution as fact, gay marriage, etc. ARE “higher.” Are they correct?




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  40. Does anyone know how to get through to President Wilson by email? I tried through the GC website twice, but I didn’t see a specific link to any personal email addresses. Do you have to go through the generic “contact us?”




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  41. I have to address the real problems concerning Evolution, and why newly elected GC President Ted Wilson son of former GC president Neal C. Wilson. Had a huge pep rally and everything will be back to normal, or as well educated people say B.A.U. (Business As Usual) as long as the GC has it Colleges and Universities under the federal student financial aid. They will teach the federal guidelines for receiving it. If most Adventist would check the schools, that teach this stuff they will discover that these schools are federal funded under the (government, or a the bible puts it BABYLON) All hospitals, schools, colleges, universities, places of worship were placed under the government it is a legal fact. Judge Ted Wilson by his actions not his words.




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  42. @Miracles of God:

    I am unable to find any credible reference to a theologian prior to the 19th century who specifically suggested that the Genesis day was longer than 24 hours, or that the creation week was longer than seven days. It wasn’t until Darwinism took hold that this phenomenon occurred.

    From http://homepage.mac.com/kvmagruder/hsci/06-Roman/source/augustine.html —

    While many patristic commentators, such as Basil, interpreted the creation days as six 24-hour days, Augustine warned that the interpretation of the days of creation was extremely difficult, and argued that the text could not be read as if they were ordinary days. The days lie “beyond the experience and knowledge of us mortal earthbound men,” he cautioned, so that when comparing them to ordinary days “we must bear in mind that these [ordinary] days indeed recall the days of creation, but without in any way being really similar to them”; Literal Meaning of Genesis, Bk. IV, ch. 27; 1:135.

    Is the 4th century early enough for you?




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  43. I recently uncovered a little paper back booklet I have had for years but had forgotten about. The title is “101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge.” I found it facinating and thought some of you might be interested in it. The source is given at the end of this post. To me it just reinforces what I already believed.
    ___________________

    Little known Facts About Science and the Bible

    1. Ship Builders today know that the ideal dimensions for ship stability is a length six times that of the width. God told Noah the ideal dimensions for the ark 4,500 years ago!

    Genesis 6:15
    “And this [is the fashion] which thou shalt make it [of]: The length of the ark [shall be] three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. “

    2, The earth free-floats in space.
    For centuries man believed the earth sat upon the back of an elephant or turtle, or was held up by Atlas. The Bible alone states what we know now to be true–

    Job 26:7
    “He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.”

    3. The oceans contain springs
    The ocean is very deep. Almost all of the ocean floor is in total darkness and the pressure there is enormous. It would have been impossible for Job to have been able to explore the “springs of the sea.” Until recently, it was thought that oceans were fed only by rivers and rain. Yet in the 1970s, with the help of deep diving research submarines
    that were constructed to withstand 6,000 pound-per-square-inch pressure, oceanographers discovered springs on the ocean floors!

    Job 38:16
    “Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?”

    4. There are mountains on the bottom of the ocean floor

    Only in the last century have we discovered that there are towering mountains and deep trenches in the depths of the sea but God knew it all the time!

    Jonah 2:5-6
    “For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me…The waters compassed me about, [even] to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. “

    _____________

    These are only 4 of “101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge” a small paperback of 31 pages. It is published by Eternal Predictions (www.eternal-productions.org * 1-877-370-7770. I’ve had mine for many years and do not remember where I got it but the e-mail address and phone number are given above.




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  44. I have to address the real problems concerning Evolution, and why newly elected GC President Ted Wilson son of former GC president Neal C. Wilson. Had a huge pep rally and everything will be back to normal, or as well educated people say B.A.U. (Business As Usual) as long as the GC has it Colleges and Universities under the federal student financial aid. They will teach the federal guidelines for receiving it. If most Adventist would check the schools, that teach this stuff they will discover that these schools are federal funded under the (government, or a the bible puts it BABYLON) All hospitals, schools, colleges, universities, places of worship were placed under the government it is a legal fact. Judge Ted Wilson by his actions not his words.  

    I will be judging President Wilson by both words and actions. We have some words, now we need to see some action.

    BTW, do the “federal guidelines” dictate that “evolution as fact” must be taught? I haven’t heard that. Please explain.




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  45. If most Adventist would check the schools, that teach this stuff they will discover that these schools are federal funded under the (government, or a the bible puts it BABYLON) All hospitals, schools, colleges, universities, places of worship were placed under the government it is a legal fact.

    Uh, Pastor Will, I went to LLU Medical School for almost 4 years and received thousands of dollars in government loans. And, I was NEVER taught anything about “evolution as fact” or even about how evolution was pertinent to learning about human anatomy, physiology, and pathology.

    I received 5 years of postgraduate training and still no “evolution.” The hospitals I trained at and practice at were all “accredited” too.

    As far as I know, LLU Medical School was “accredited” since I never had any trouble practicing medicine in 3 states. Did LLU and I pull a “fast one” on Uncle Sam?!




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  46. “The greatest want of the world is the want of men, men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall” (Education, p. 57).

    I noticed a comment or two that was quite bitter. Truth is not always sweet!

    “Continue eating cotton candy, its good for the tongue.”




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  47. @Lydian Belknap:

    2, The earth free-floats in space.
    For centuries man believed the earth sat upon the back of an elephant or turtle, or was held up by Atlas. The Bible alone states what we know now to be true–

    Job 26:7
    “He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.”

    This is quite a selective way to interpret this passage, which is more reasonably read as consistent with the view elsewhere expressed in Job that the earth stands on pillars. Here is a passage from Louis Jacobs, “Jewish Cosmology”, in Carmen Blacker and Michael Loewe (Eds), Ancient cosmologies, George Allen and Unwin, London, 1975, pp. 66-86.

    The Biblical picture is clearly geocentric. The earth has the shape of a flat disc so that if one were able to travel far enough, one would eventually arrive at the ‘ends of the earth’ (Deut. 13:8; 28:64; Isa. 5:26; Ps. 135:7). This term can simply refer to far-distant places, but its use is evidence of the cosmological picture. The ‘corners’ or ‘wings’ (kanefot) of the earth (Isa. 11: 12; Ezek. 7:2; Job 37:3) may be a synonym for the ‘ends of the earth’. If, on the other hand, the earth is not conceived of as a disc but as a square strip, the ‘corners’ may be understood literally. It is also possible that the term kanefot refers to the four directions, north, south, east and west. The earth rests on pillars (Job 9:6). Stretched above the earth is the sky, `heaven’ (shamayim) or ‘firmament’ (rakia), a solid substance’ (Gen. 1:6-8) resting on pillars (Job 26:11).5 Just as the earth has an ‘end’ so does the sky (Deut. 4:32). The sun, moon and stars are positioned in, or just beneath,6 the firmament (Gen. I : 14-17) and they move across it (Ps. 19:1-7). Beneath the earth is Sheol, ‘the abode of the dead’ (Num. 16: 28-34; I Sam. 28:13-15; Isa. 9: 11; Eccles. 9: 10). There are waters above the firmament (Gen. 1: 6-7) as well as beneath it. Some of the waters beneath the firmament were gathered together at the beginning of creation to form the seas (Gen. 1:9-10) but, in addition, these waters flow beneath the earth (Exod. 20:4; Deut. 4:18; Ps. 24:2) where they are connected to the waters of Tehom, the great deep (Gen. 1:2). Fountains, wells and springs flow from these waters beneath the earth. The Deluge was caused by a tremendous outpouring of the fountains of Tehom as well as by the opening of the windows of heaven (Gen. 7: 11). Rain is produced by the clouds (Gen. 9:11-17; Job 26:8; Eccles. 11:3). The water in the clouds comes from the waters above the firmament so that when the heaven is ‘shut up’ there is no rain (Deut. 1: 17) while when the ‘good treasure’ of heaven is opened the rain falls in abundance (Deut. 28: 12).




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  48. Our daughter also spent 4 years at LLU (late ’90’s and early 2000’s)and while she wasn’t taught evolution, there were certainly other problems. More than half of her class were non-Adventists and, like the “mixed company” coming out of Egypt, these were always striving against and balking at the “restrictions” they agreed to upon acceptance. There were administrators and maybe even professors (it’s hard to remember those details now) who were non-Adventists as well. At the time I asked HOW we could EVER operate under the guidelines of EGW with this set-up. Not only did these non-SDA’s drink and party ’til the cows came home, but other weaker SDA’s were lured into the action as well. One “memorable” night there was a party in the community where noise and drunkeness was out of hand. The neighbors complained so a few of the students urinated on their lawn in their viewing. Police were called and the media jumped on it. The laws of the school (at that time) demanded expelling or withholding their diplomas (all students were aware of this and consistently thumbed their noses at it). A battle ensued and the solid SDA’s were out-voted by the non-SDA’s and their sympathizers and all those students graduated with nothing but a word of “caution”. The neighbors, also non-SDA’s, only knew these were medical students from LLU. Nice representation. Nice. We sacrifice a LOT by forming contracts with the world. Remember David doing business with the heathen? God was pointed in His disapproval. There were at this time promising and dedicated SDA students with high GPA’s trying to get into LLU but were passed up for students in public colleges. Fox University was ” favorite” to draw from. The question was put to Samson, “Are there not women of God’s people to choose from…..?” The same question could be posed to our institutions. Whether it be evolution, abhorant behavior or bad influence and sewing seeds of doubt, we’re selling the souls of our students and making contracts with the devil.




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  49. The Bible says that the earth is a sphere hung in space “upon nothing” yet we know that in fact the earth is held in place by strong pillars (gravity comes to mind). So it is not too surprising that the Bible also mentions that concept.

    The Bible does describe motion using the earth as a frame of reference. Einstein turned that idea into solid math and physics when he made the case that motion can be accurately described using any frame of reference – as long as the frame of reference is taken into account.

    But for those who think that “any old excuse will do” when it comes to tossing the Bible out the window as being “untrustworthy” these are just so many inconvenient details to be ignored.

    How sad.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  50. I’m reasonably positive that one of the hyperorthodox Educatetruthers will dispute Brad’s well-reasoned and documented point that the Hebrew understanding was obviously a geocentric understanding of the relationship of the earth and sun. Just as they had a premodern understanding of this, they also had a premodern understanding of the age of the earth and life upon it. That is not to disparage the Hebrews at all. They expressed the best “science” of their time and when Genesis was written they provided a narrative that viewed their whole world as the product of the actions of one and only one God. But I know that all of this is impossible for Educatetruthers to accept given their fundamentalist world view.




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  51. All you evolutionists – please don’t listen to the following.

    This is for those who believe in the soon return of Jesus Christ – you know – to save us from sin and death (as opposed to death saving the human race)

    The GC president is firming up the final show down that must occur between those that will either agree with the church or those that will leave (shaking). Make no mistake that God will preserve his church on this planet. However, don’t place all you faith in one man (I am sure that Mr. Wilson would be the first to agree).

    Remember that our leader is in heaven and he will continue to use his servants do carry on his patient work. May he come soon.




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  52. @Ervin Taylor:

    @Brad:

    I’m reasonably positive that one of the hyperorthodox Educatetruthers will dispute Brad’s well-reasoned and documented point that the Hebrew understanding was obviously a geocentric understanding of the relationship of the earth and sun. Just as they had a premodern understanding of this, they also had a premodern understanding of the age of the earth and life upon it. That is not to disparage the Hebrews at all. They expressed the best “science” of their time and when Genesis was written they provided a narrative that viewed their whole world as the product of the actions of one and only one God. But I know that all of this is impossible for Educatetruthers to accept given their fundamentalist world view.

    Perhaps they also had a “pre-modern” understanding of the whole concept of “God” as well? – attributing “miraculous” events to a personal God where no such God really exists?

    You have to be careful with how far you, as a “SDA in good standing” take your pre-modern arguments. Pretty soon the Bible is no longer a source of any kind of “privileged information” whatsoever. It is really nothing more than a collection of moral fables and a description of pre-modern cultures.

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com

    P.S. By the way, the whole “firmament” and “flat Earth” idea is a hoax, myths produced in the late 19th century.

    Jeffrey Burton Russell’s 1991 work, The Myth of the Flat Earth, completely clears up this persistent misconception and explains its origin in the late 1800s as an effort to discredit Christianity and support Darwinian thinking.

    “This vast web of falsehood was invented and propagated by the influential historian John Draper (1811-1882) and many prestigious followers, such as Andrew Dickson White (1832-1918), the president of Cornell University, who made sure that the false account was perpetrated in texts, encyclopedias, and even allegedly serious scholarship, down to the present day. A lively current version of the lie can be found in Daniel Boorstin’s The Discoverers, found in any bookshop or library.

    The reason for promoting both the specific lie about the sphericity of the earth and the general lie that religion and science are in natural and eternal conflict in Western society, is to defend Darwinism. The answer is really only slightly more complicated than that bald statement. The flat-earth lie was ammunition against the creationists. The argument was simple and powerful, if not elegant: “Look how stupid these Christians are. They are always getting in the way of science and progress. These people who deny evolution today are exactly the same sort of people as those idiots who for at least a thousand years denied that the earth was round. How stupid can you get?”

    But that is not the truth.”




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  53. This is what the apostle Paul says about the last days: “The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine” (2 Timothy 4:3).




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  54. @Sean Pitman:

    P.S. By the way, the whole “firmament” and “flat Earth” idea is a hoax, myths produced in the late 19th century.

    Just to clarify, the myth propagated by Draper and White is not that anyone ever believed in the flat earth. It is that belief in a flat earth was predominant in the middle ages. No-one doubts that belief in a flat earth was common before the ancient Greeks, and many scholars are of the view that it is expressed in the Bible. Here for example is a quote from Wikipedia:

    Belief in a flat Earth is found in mankind’s oldest writings, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. In early Egyptian and Mesopotamian thought the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean. A similar model is found in the Homeric account of the 8th century BCE in which “Okeanos, the personified body of water surrounding the circular surface of the earth, is the begetter of all life and possibly all the gods” which forms the premise for early Greek maps such as those of Anaximander and Hecataeus of Miletus. The Hebrew Bible carried forward the ancient Middle Eastern cosmology such as in the Enuma Elish which described a flat earth with a solid roof, surrounded by water above and below.

    Draper and White have of course long been highly discredited. The best account of the problems with their work I know of is given here:

    Moore, James R. 1979. “Part I: Historians and Historiography”, in The Post-Darwinian Controversies: A Study of the Protestant Struggle to Come to Terms with Darwinism in Britain and America, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, pp. 17–122.




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  55. @BobRyan:

    The Bible says that the earth is a sphere hung in space “upon nothing” yet we know that in fact the earth is held in place by strong pillars (gravity comes to mind). So it is not too surprising that the Bible also mentions that concept.

    So, just to confirm, Bob—”pillars” sometimes means “gravity” but “day” always means “day”.




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  56. @Brad:

    P.S. By the way, the whole “firmament” and “flat Earth” idea is a hoax, myths produced in the late 19th century. – Sean Pitman

    Just to clarify, the myth propagated by Draper and White is not that anyone ever believed in the flat earth. It is that belief in a flat earth was predominant in the middle ages. No-one doubts that belief in a flat earth was common before the ancient Greeks, and many scholars are of the view that it is expressed in the Bible.

    This is possible for some, but perhaps not all, of the biblical writers. There are several passages in the Bible that seem to suggest that at least some of the biblical writers did understand the Earth to be spherical.

    Isaiah, for example, writes about God sitting enthroned above the “circle of the Earth” (Isaiah 40:22). It is also interesting to note that the biblical writers emphasize the infinite distance of the east from the west (since this would not be true of the north from the south) – indicating an understanding of the spherical nature of the Earth and of the magnetic poles of the Earth (Psalms 103:12) and possibly of the infinite distance of the heavens above in the verse before (Psalms 103:11). The biblical authors also talk about God hanging the Earth in empty space (Job 26:7) and clearly had the ability to compare the Earth to other planets (especially the moon) as well as the Sun as being round or spherical (i.e., not square with “corners”). Job indicates that where light terminates, darkness begins “on the face of the waters” (Job 26:10 NIV). This suggests day and night on a spherical globe for people who knew at least something about large bodies of water. The observation of sea-going vessels or even land travelers disappearing over the horizon would also be a rather obvious clue for a spherical Earth for even the semi-observant.

    Regardless, the Bible was written by humans who did use human language and human understanding to describe what was being shown to them by God. God did not dictate word-for-word what was written down nor did God correct all errors of background and assumption for the biblical authors. However, this does not mean that God did not provide privileged information regarding the natural world which would otherwise not be known.

    The information regarding the creation week, for example, may have been given in vision to the writer(s) of Genesis from an Earth-bound perspective. However, if the vision is assumed to be a true picture of reality from a particular witnessed perspective, the description of what was seen from that perspective, though limited in both perspective and human understanding, would still be a very good clue to the nature of reality. For instance, it would be very hard for anyone, regardless of background, to fail to understand the concept of “evenings and mornings” marking off “days” of creation. Even a child would get this much right.

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com




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  57. Sean, I think the Bible language supports a two-dimensional circle more so than a three-dimensional sphere. Many of us have no problem with limits to an inspired writer’s understanding and a reader’s interpretation. We all suffer from imperfect understanding (well, most of us, that is).




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  58. Re Sean’s quote

    “Regardless, the Bible was written by humans who did use human language and human understanding to describe what was being shown to them by God. God did not dictate word-for-word what was written down nor did God correct all errors of background and assumption for the biblical authors. However, this does not mean that God did not provide privileged information regarding the natural world which would otherwise not be known.”

    Dear Sean

    Precisely! What a fair and honest statement.

    Let’s take it one step further. If God did not dictate word for word what was written down then the inspired words are certainly open to human interpretation. I made this point before regarding the different interpretation of ‘days’ in the Bible: i.e. 6 ‘literal’ days differ from 2300 ‘prophetic’ days. Brad has made a variation of this point as well.

    With respect Sean, would not a child interpret 2300 days as days if that is what is written? Why would God make it so complicated if He wanted his children to understand his meaning? Perhaps it was not God that made it complicated but fallible man.

    So as an agnostic I ask, why is one interpretation of the Bible more correct than others? Is it simply a matter of faith, versus science that provides an objective lens to view the nature of reality?

    Regards
    Ken

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com Sean Pitman(Quote)




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  59. Re Roger’s quote

    “All you evolutionists – please don’t listen to the following”

    Dear Roger

    Is this indicative of the compassion of Jesus? Who judges the judges?

    Regards
    Ken




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  60. @Lydian Belknap: This is quite a selective way to interpret this passage, which is more reasonably read as consistent with the view elsewhere expressed in Job that the earth stands on pillars. Here is a passage from Louis Jacobs, “Jewish Cosmology”, in Carmen Blacker and Michael Loewe (Eds), Ancient cosmologies, George Allen and Unwin, London, 1975, pp. 66-86.   (Quote)

    Dear Brad,

    I am very sorry to be so slow getting back to you but I have been “laid up” with a very swollen, feverish right wrist for over a week now–I wasn’t even able to use it to feed myself. It is just now getting to the place where I can use it more again.

    It’s been examined, probed, and x-rayed by doctors with no one being able to decide on a real medical cause–no falls, no bites, no nothing of that kind. The final opinion is “Too much time on the computer!” Needless to say, I’ve had to change my way of living and “computing” in several respects!

    I’m happy to see that in the meantime others–a lot more educated in science than I am-have given good answers to your response-but, for whatever its worth, I still want to add my “two cents worth” to the discussion!

    I have spent that time reading and thinking about all of the texts you sent me, however, I personally, can see nothing in any of them that in anyway disputes what Job said. And as far as I can find, there is absolutely no scientific evidence that disputes it either.

    People have sailed around the world countless times, planes have flown around it even more times and astronauts have even photographed it in space. All evidence shows it to be a relatively (comparatively speaking) small–and “dirty little ball.” (A while back one person described our situation in this way–“The nation’s clean-air laws arose out of ‘the desire of people in Denver to see the mountains, and the desire of people in Los Angeles to see each other.’” Not only is it “dirty” but disease is rampant and, as I see it, if Jesus doesn’t come pretty soon there won’t be many living people around to welcome Him!

    As for the statement in Job 26:11–“The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof” is concerned, I haven’t a clue as to what that means–and it’s talking about HEAVEN not this earth! I am sure of one thing however–the “pillars” mentioned here aren’t what we on this earth consider “pillars!” I’ll just have to wait ‘till we are in heaven to ask God about that one!

    So my personal belief is that what Job said in chapter 26:7 is unquestionably correct and I “rest my case” on that!




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  61. Lydian, you sound as if you have carpal tunnel syndrome from excess repetitive motions, which could lead to a bigger problem known as reflex sympathetic dystrophy. Keep using the wrist (do not immobilize it), but you should avoid the repetitive motions, especially if the pain and swelling worsen. I’m not an MD but know others who have experienced these maladies. You can readily Google these conditions.




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  62. @Professor Kent:

    Thank you so much for your suggestion. Now that you mentioned it, I think you are probably right but for some reason that never occurred to me–even though I had it in my left hand many years ago

    My wrist was a little sore two weeks ago but my doctor just sort of brushed off as “one of those things that can happen to us as we age.”

    It was so bad last Sabbath morning that my daughter took me to the emergency room and we were there until the middle of the afternoon while they ran all kinds of tests and could come up with no reason that they could find. I’m surprised no one even thought of CT! They did give me some antibiotics and it is much better but still not back to normal. I finally decided it was from too much time on the computer and have been using it very little these days. I’m seeing my regular doctor again on Tuesday and will discuss it further with him.

    Thanks again for alerting me!

    Lydian




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  63. @Brad:

    So, just to confirm, Bob—”pillars” sometimes means “gravity” but “day” always means “day”.

    Well we don’t see masonry holding up the earth – but we do see days. That is our first clue that masonry is being used as a symbol.

    Of course I am a seventh-day Adventist so the idea of “SIX days you shall labor…for in SIX DAYS the Lord Made” tends to mean “real day” to mean since I have a real six day work week and real Sabbath day that follows.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  64. Re: Ken’s question
    Why would God make it so complicated if He wanted his children to understand his meaning? Perhaps it was not God that made it complicated but fallible man.
    So as an agnostic I ask, why is one interpretation of the Bible more correct than others? Is it simply a matter of faith, versus science that provides an objective lens to view the nature of reality?

    Being an agnostic is not the same as being an atheist. “Agnostic” simply means “one cannot know”. But there is hope that someday one may know.

    Atheism, of course, denies the existence of either a good God or a bad devil. Judging from the pervasiveness and virulence of the evil which has (presumably) evolved along with humanity, how any Darwinist could possibly think that humanity could survive its own evil nature for millions of years is beyond my comprehension. Holocausts, pogroms, and genocides, as well as world conflicts, seem to be the rule rather than the exception when it comes to the known human history of just the last 4,000 years. It also seems to my mind that only the Bible presents humanity with any hope at all for the future, with a decisive judgment day promised which will end all evil and restore what was lost in the fall of man.

    Now to your question, perhaps it would help us if we would consider that the Bible has been written and preserved under less than ideal conditions by any count. God (assuming for the moment, that there is a loving and all powerful Heavenly Father) has had to reach past not only the individually rebellious heart, but He has also had to circumvent spiritual wickedness in high places, i.e. a literal devil, who was/is determined to squelch any divine intrusion into the human fallen condition.

    As an example of God’s reaching in, honing in on the contextual area you mentioned (2300 days) just a few chapters later the angel instructs Daniel to “Shut up the words and seal the book,” and that “Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.” (NKJV) If indeed the Bible, or at least the prophetic part of it, was written in coded language in such a way that would cause “the wicked” to not understand, it is important that every inquiring person come with a heart desiring to believe rather than a distrusting presupposition. Otherwise, he or she may indeed miss the true import of what is being studied. Just as I am dependent on believing my parents’ version of my birth story, God places humanity in a dependent role when it comes to origins. He could just as easily have made man on the first day rather than the sixth so that there would be no possible questions. But He did not.




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  65. Pardon my off-topic question to Lydian, but I have to ask: how is your wrist doing? I hope you’re still seeing improvement.

    I know there are some here who don’t appreciate my defense of “faith” and my plea for tolerance toward those who believe in Young Earth Creationism but don’t see overwhelming scientific evidence for it, but these issues are small compared to the personal struggles we all go through.




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  66. Professor Kent (and anyone else who might be interested:)

    My wrist is just about back to normal, thank you–for which I am very grateful! No one seems to know what it was or what caused it. Just about everything has been ruled out–including carpal tunnel. But whatever it was that caused it the antibiotic seems to have taken care of it.

    Incidentally, there was a very interesting article on the internet a few weeks ago about Norway banning the use of most antibiotics in their country. This is not the place to quote it, but anyone who is interested can look it up on Google: “Norway’s Answer: When drugs stop working.” It is somewhat difficult to locate at times but it is there if you keep looking.

    As for the current debate about evolution and LSU (plus other Adventist institutions I’ve been told) I will never disbelieve what God says in His Word about how this world came into being. He is my God, the Bible is His Word to me and I will never lose my confidence in either–regardless of what the world’s “wise men” manage to come up with.

    A little boy during the “great depression” years saw a “silver whistle” in the little store near his home one day. It cost ten cents–which was far more than he or his parents could afford.–After all, one could buy a loaf of good homemade bread for ten cents in those days and a quart of good milk from cows who were pasture fed for another 15 cents–but money was “piddlin’ small” in those days–so he longed for it for many months. When his birthday came around his parents decided to give him ten cents for his birthday to spend as he liked. Of course he bought the whistle and for several days he blew on that whistle until the rest of the family was about blown to distraction.

    One morning when he woke up the whistle refused to “blow.” In desperation he went to his father who could “fix anything.” But father had to tell him no one could “fix” the whistle. Every time he blew it a small amount of moisture went into the whistle and now it was all rusted inside and would never blow right again. After many tears the little fellow looked at father and said. “Father, Father, I guess I paid too much for my whistle!”

    Friends, Satan has millions of “silver whistles” out there in every aspect of life, diet, dress, entertainment, houses, cars–you name it, and millions of us are frantically grasping at them convinced that one or another of them will enure our happiness for the “rest of our lives” only to find that, one by one, they “rust” and leave us sad and unfulfilled. So we frantically grasp for another one–with the same results.

    One of these days–and I think that will be a lot sooner than we expect–the sky is going to be “rolled back as a scroll” and a small, dark cloud will be seen in the midst of the open space.

    As we look on it will grow in size, increase in splendor, and we will see King Jesus returning in all His glory just as He said He would. He will be accompanied by all the holy angels and the music will be the most glorious we have ever heard. (I’ll guarantee there will be no “rock and roll” in that heavenly concert!)

    There will only be two classes of people on earth then. One class will rejoice and say “This is our God–we have waited for Him and He will save us!” The others will bow their heads and wail, “Father, Father, we guess we paid too much for our whistles!”

    Which class will you be in? Which class will I be in? It is OUR CHOICE!

    Another story is of a man walking along a beach one day afer several days of intense rain. The beach was narrow with the ocean on one side and a tall wall of massive boulders on the other. As he turned to look at the boulders he saw one that looked strange. He thought he saw a small door on it. Curious, he went over to examine it. Sure enough, it WAS a small door. Afer much indecision he finally decided to open it. Inside was a small basket piled high with clay balls. After looking around to see if anybody was watching he finally decided to take it with him.

    As he continued walking he would throw one clay ball after another out into the ocean just to see how far he could throw them. When the basket was nearly empty he accidentally dropped one and it broke open at his feet. To his utter amazement inside of that ball was one of the most beautiful jewels he had ever seen. He excitedly opened one after another and each contained an exquisite jewel! When he cashed these in he would be a very wealthy man! He was very excited until he remembered the many clay balls he had thrown into the ocean that were now forever beyond his reach.

    Inside of the “clay balls” available to us today are the countless number of “jewels” in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy giving us all the instruction necessary to insure us a passport to the heavenly mansions God has prepared for those who love and trust Him enough to believe what He says and act upon it.

    But I fear too many of us today are carelessly throwing those precious
    “clay balls” back into the oceans of life with nary a thought of the blessings contained therein that would insure us a place in that heavenly kingdom where “riches untold” are awaiting us.

    Will you be ready? Will I? It is a serious question that each one of needs to ponder!




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  67. Lydian Belknap,
    What beautiful stories to read as the sun sets, starting another Sabbath. Sometimes, as with the depressing news today, I need to just step out of all the contention and arguing and join the peaceful company of my God and Creator. As much as I benefit from the intelligent responses to the creation question and 100% support of the Bible AND Spirit of Prophecy, the constant rejection of the plain written word is wearing and takes me away from God. Thankfully He has wisely provided a rest to draw us back to Him—-far, far away from man’s presumptious religion and the complicated twists and turns of science!




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  68. @Ken:

    I guess my sarcasm was lost in the bytes…

    Re Roger’s quote“All you evolutionists – please don’t listen to the following”Dear RogerIs this indicative of the compassion of Jesus? Who judges the judges?RegardsKen  (Quote)




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  69. Lydian, I am really pleased to learn that your wrist has improved so much. I thoroughly enjoyed the delightful stories. And I greatly appreciated your remark:

    I will never disbelieve what God says in His Word about how this world came into being. He is my God, the Bible is His Word to me and I will never lose my confidence in either–regardless of what the world’s “wise men” manage to come up with.

    God bless,

    PK




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  70. Lydian,
    May seem “out there” but the symptoms you described sound like gout. Even though it most often settles in the toe it can settle in any joint. “Feverish”, “excrutiating pain”. Antibiotics in parts of Europe are against the law without lab proof of their necessity due to the rise of super-bugs. America needs to be in that camp.

    If this forum is for Adventists, then why isn’t Spirit of Prophecy used? God gave us this gift for the same reason He has always given the world a prophet, to make a clear path to undeniable truth. Though the truth of “days” in creation and “days” in Daniel is abundantly clear to the seekers of truth, for those who desire to see otherwise, the Spirit of Prophecy puts the question to final rest—-as God intended. The choice is to ignore God’s prophet—-as was done in Bible times— or silence the voice by casting doubt or through mocking (and that’s the kindest approach as in Bible times they murdered them).

    Is this forum set up exclusively for the evolution theory? The subject has been explored to the point of bickering now. People for the most part know enough to make a decision. Satan has other dangerous issues that will cause the ruin of people and divide the church; other dangerous. I’d like to see some of those explored as well. In fact numerous issues to confuse “even the elect if possible” are and WILL abound. Why not meet these issues openly as well?




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  71. Bobbie. I have been having the same feelings regarding your post. I often wondered what the results would be if we did a survey of Adventist and were able to get everyone to answer the following questions:

    1) Do you believe that the earth was created in 6 literal days?
    2) Do you believe that Ellen G. White was God’s Prophet and that her writings were inspired by the same power that inspired the Bible.
    3) Do you believe that the Seventh-Day Adventist Church is the remnant and has the “truth” for the last days of earth’s history.
    4) Do you believe that the Sabbath (Friday night to Saturday night) are sacred hours blessed by none other that God himself and that keeping this time Holy will be a test in the last days of earth’s history.

    Those four simple questions would be very interesting to ask. I don’t know what percent of all adventists would answers “Yes” to them – and that would not what I would be interested in anyhow. What I would be interested in specifically was how connected the answers would be. In other words, hom many times would the answers ALL be “Yes” or “No”.

    In my opinion, I would say that very few people would answer the questions differently. I think there would be a very highly correlated degree of similarity between how these questions would be answered.

    Therefore, my assertion is that those Adventists that would answer “No” to #1 would also answer “No” to at least once other questions (and probably ALL other answers).

    The next question is why? I have no answer for this one but it might tell you why Ellen G. White’s writings do not surface on this web site (even though I highly esteem her comments on this subject). It would be interesting to hear from people that answer “No” to #1 but Yes to any other of my questions (especially #2).




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  72. Dear Roger,
    I, personally, can honestly answer “yes” to all four of your questions.
    Does this mean I feel I am “ready for translation?” Absolutely not. What I honestly “believe” and what I (more often than I would like to admit) actually end up “doing” on a daily basis leaves a whole lot to be desired!
    (And I suspect there are a lot of others out there who would say the same thing! It is only by the grace of God that any of us make it!)




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  73. Can’t we all just get along?Surely our church is big enough for those who just can’t see truth as I do.  

    No, we are not going to get along as long as we have those who claim to have some new “present truth” which is opposite to what the bible says. If you feel as though God is not calling you to oppose this problem we are facing at LSU, then go your own way and find somewhere else to serve God.




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  74. Roger, Many liberal California SDA’s ignore, belittle, or even condemn some of Ellen White’s writings, so using her as “evidence” is something I generally do not do, even though I am a strong believer in her and her messages.

    You won’t get very far using Ellen White as a source of “truth” as the liberals generally think she is a ancient backwater who is best ignored as someone “out of touch” with postmodern America.




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  75. Pingback: The Suburban Pastor » The Irony of Darwinism

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