@Bill Sorensen: Then people who keep Sunday in ignorance are …

Comment on WASC Reviews LSU’s Accreditation by Sean Pitman.

@Bill Sorensen:

Then people who keep Sunday in ignorance are not sinning? Is that your understanding, Sean?

That’s right – as long as they had no known opportunity to consciously recognize and deliberately reject the truth or knowledge of the truth.

Honest ignorance of various forms of truth is not a moral wrong and does not lead to eternal death. As long as a person is living according to his/her God-given conscience(which is the Holy Spirit speaking to the heart) as best as he/she knows how given his/her limited knowledge of the truth, that person is considered to be righteous before God… end of story.

Now you quoted this text….

“Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin. – John 9:41 NIV ”

But this is typical of the NIV. It distorts the true meaning of the text. In fact the text means this, “If ye were blind, you would have no sin that could not be forgiven. But now you say ‘We see’, therefore, your sin is unpardonable.”

No version of this text reads like this. For this particular text, the KJV reads the same as the NIV:

“Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin.” – John 9:41 KJV

Jesus specifically claims that ignorance is equal to a complete lack of sin – period. There is no qualifier here that even suggests what you are suggesting.

Consider also the following texts that say essentially the same thing:

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. – John 15:22

If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. – John 15:24

Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins. – James 4:17

Over and over again the Bible makes clear that truly honest ignorance of this or that truth, without any opportunity to know any better, is not viewed by God as a sin against one’s conscience… against the motive of selfless love.

In an objective sense, the law doesn’t care what you know or don’t know. The law pronounces guilty any and all who transgress it no matter what the reason.

The moral law is based on selfless love. In other words, the moral law is based on motive, not on perfect knowledge of all truth or actions. Not even in heaven will we have perfect knowledge or be perfect in every thought and action. We will, however, be perfect in selfless love. Only God is completely perfect in knowledge and action.

Not too many years ago doctors and dieticians actually believed that meat and dairy products were vital to good health. Therefore, out of love and care for their patients, they would tell them to eat more meat, eggs, and milk to build strong bodies and bones. Now even the secular medical community is starting to realize that this advice was completely mistaken – that animal protein is actually quite harmful to the human system over time – resulting in markedly enhanced heart disease, a significantly increased risk of cancer, and numerous other medical conditions.

So, were those who honestly advised their patients to eat lots of animal protein, thinking they were acting selflessly for the benefit of others, living a life of sin while in their ignorance? I think not. Their motives were pure and it is the motive that is judged by the moral law and by God, not the lack of correct knowledge.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

WASC Reviews LSU’s Accreditation
@Professor Kent:

Studies of the association between (animal or plant) protein and disease incidence may consequently be less reliable if the contributing protein sources are not evaluated in addition to total protein intakes.

The findings of Colin Campbell’s “China Study” did not show that all animal proteins are detrimental to human health. As far as I’m aware laboratory research (with lab rats) only seemed to confirm that one animal protein in particular, casein, is detrimental to human health in the form of the promotion of cancer cell growth. It is suggested that other animal proteins may also function in a similar manner to that of casein, but I don’t think that this has been confirmed in isolation with either animal or human experiments.

Beyond this, of course, The China Study cites a lot of research, not just the one big study in China, all supporting the same conclusion: a plant-based, whole foods diet provides tremendous health benefits over traditional American/European diets. This conclusion also appears to be supported by the fact that Seventh-day Adventists are part of the longest-lived “Blue-Zone” peoples and are the only group of long-lived people that have a mixed ethnic background. This strongly suggests a dietary component to longevity.

There are of course some seemingly valid negative critiques of Campbell’s methods and conclusions. In my opinion, there are most likely numerous contributing variables which tend to favor the vegetarian diet over the diet rich in animal products (as I’ve already noted above).

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


WASC Reviews LSU’s Accreditation
@Bill Sorensen:

“No cross was or will be need for mistakes that have taken place and will continue to take place in heaven that are based on a lack of knowledge.” – Sean Pitman

This is partly true like much of what you have to say. But “partly” is not sufficient to explain or describe all the elements of God’s government.

First, let me say “The cross” is a revelation, not an inovation. The principles of the cross are an essential and eternal part of God’s government.

The “sinless” angels are considered sinless only and precisely because they are accepted “in Christ”.

The sinless angels are considered sinless because they have never rebelled against their consciences – against what they knew to be right. This is the reason why they never needed a Savior to sacrifice himself on the cross as we did… even though they certainly made many mistakes along the way due to a lack of perfect knowledge. They never required redemption from a life of sin as we do.

The cross is also not “eternal” since it was not always needed and never should have been needed in God’s ideal government.
You see, the cross simply was not necessary before the Fall of Adam and Eve because there was no redeemable moral fall before Adam and Eve deliberately chose to rebel against what they knew was right for selfish reasons.

There was of course a moral fall before Adam and Eve – i.e., the fall of Lucifer and those angels that chose to go with him in his rebellion in Heaven. However, this particular fall was unredeemable because they rebelled in the full knowledge of God and the implications of their own actions. There was nothing left that could be done or shown to these rebels that hadn’t already been done.

Adam and Eve, on the other hand, rebelled against what they knew was right, and therefore sinned against their consciences. However, they did not rebel in the full light and understanding of God’s character or with the full understanding of the implications of their actions. Therefore, it was possible to re-establish the relationship between God and man given a further demonstration of the character of God and of the nature of Evil which would have the power to convert many human hearts.

Did Adam and Eve make mistakes in Eden before the Fall? Of course they did, due to their lack of knowledge. But, these were not moral mistakes. Was it possible that Adam could have accidentally tripped Eve when she came around a corner unexpectedly? Of course! Could Eve have accidentally hit Adam in the face with a branch of a tree, not knowing he was directly behind her? Obviously. Clearly, however, such mistakes in action, due to a lack of knowledge, are not sinful. They are amoral mistakes. There is absolutely no need for Jesus to have died on the cross for such amoral mistakes.

You don’t seem to understand that morality requires the conscious ability to make a choice. Robots are not moral agents because they are not free to choose between options nor are they capable of understanding the implications of options. The same is true for animals or even humans that have suffered enough brain damage so that they no longer understand the implications of their actions. A lack of knowledge produces the same effect – it removes moral responsibility to the same degree that there is a lack of knowledge.

You may be a good scientist Sean, but I know theology. I’ll listen to you on scientific issues, you would do well to listen to me on theological issues.

If you do know theology better than I do, you will have to do a whole lot better at explaining yourself in a way that makes much more sense to my simpleton mind.

Just think about what makes humans morally responsible for certain actions while animals or robots wouldn’t be morally responsible for the same actions.

It seems to me, and I may be too simplistic in my thinking to understand, that it all has to do with a conscious realization of what you’re doing and the consequences of your actions.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


WASC Reviews LSU’s Accreditation
@Bill Sorensen:

Suppose I speed through some town and I don’t see a speed limit sign that says 35 miles an hour.

This is a very common example used by people who don’t understand the difference between committing an amoral mistake versus an action against one’s own conscience – a moral wrong.

Just because someone can be convicted for doing something that they didn’t know was wrong doesn’t mean that they can also be convicted for sin. It is for this reason that only God can judge the moral state of a person because only God knows the true heart of a person – the true motive.

When it comes to morality, everything is based on a person’s motive before God – everything.

I repeat again, even in heaven it will be possible to make amoral mistakes due to a lack of infinite knowledge. Some of these mistakes may even have negative consequences for those we love – even in Heaven. Yet, these mistakes will not be considered “sinful” because they weren’t done with malicious intent, but out of ignorance.

I dare say that even angels make such mistakes from time to time. Once the mistake is realized, one apologizes and moves on. There is no sin here. No moral fall has taken place.

My final comment is that you have a warped view of guilt in reference to law. If you break God’s law, you are guilty whether you know it or not.

And you don’t seem to understand that it is impossible to break the moral law without knowing it. One always knows when one breaks the moral law of Love that is written on the hearts of us all. It is for this reason that none of us have any excuse for breaking this law before God – because we already knew what it was and that it was right when we broke it.

So Paul says, “At these times of ignorance, God winked at.” Not because people were not guilty, but because God took into account their ignorance of His will.

They were guilty only of errors based on a lack of knowledge. They were not guilty of sinning against their conscience or “sinning”.

And the only reason God can “wink” at sin or overlook sin is because of the atonement of the cross. So, once again, you have a convoluted non-scriptural view of sin, guilt, and the law.

No cross was or will be need for mistakes that have taken place and will continue to take place in heaven that are based on a lack of knowledge. The cross of Jesus was only needed because of the sin of deliberately going against our conscience – against the moral Law of Love. That is why the relationship was broken between us and God and that is why the cross was necessary to re-establish this relationship.

Our relationship with God was not broken over some honest misunderstanding. Our relationship was broken due to a deliberate rebellion against what we knew was true – against the Law of Love. That’s what broke the relationship.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


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