@Bill Sorensen: Well, Sean, I would have a hard time …

Comment on WASC Reviews LSU’s Accreditation by Sean Pitman.

@Bill Sorensen:

Well, Sean, I would have a hard time believing anyone would subscribe to the definition you have stated in the context of “self validation”.

A dictionary definition of “self validation” is:

“Requiring no external confirmation, sanction, or validation.”

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/self-validating

While I think I now understand what you are trying to say, your usage of this term has been especially confusing to me since you have argued that prophecy is used by the Bible as a form of “self validation” while you dismiss other forms of empirical evidence which are also consistent with the claims of the Bible. You seem to be contradicting yourself besides using terms in ways that few others use them in my own experience.

If God said, “I am God and there is no other”, what good would it do for someone else to agree with Him with no evidence of the fact?

Exactly, but this is what those like Phil Brantley and Prof. Kent are suggesting – that God’s Word can be accepted at face value, based solely on the self-declared claim to be the Word of God, without any appeal to empirical evidence whatsoever. In fact, according to Brantley, even if all available empirical evidence were in apparent conflict with the claims of the Bible, one should still believe the Bible based on faith alone since the Bible is not to be subjected to any tests or verification of any of its claims about anything.

But, if God says, “I am God…..” and then proceeds to give evidence of His self pro-claimed statement, this can only be called “self-validation”.

An appeal to “evidence” that exists outside of one’s self, even if that evidence is apparently generated by one’s self, is still an appeal to something that exists outside of one’s self that all can examine independently to see if the evidence really does or does not support the claim. In other words, the evidence has its own separate existence that is independent of the claims of an individual or a text. It is for this reason that such independent evidence can be used to validate the claims of an individual or text concerning such evidence.

Does Professor Kent think that God simply points to Himself and says,”I am God, now believe it?” Only a fool would believe it.

That is exactly what Phil Brantley has said and Prof. Kent fully supports Phil Brantley whenever he has made such claims in this and other forums. While both admit that there may be evidence in support of the Bible’s claims, Brantley in particular argues that an appeal to such evidence is not needed since faith alone is sufficient to support the Bible’s claims to Divine origin.

For Satan could equally say the same thing. Or you or me, for that matter. So if this is what Kent believes true Christanity is about or even bible Adventism, he is way off the mark.

Indeed…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

WASC Reviews LSU’s Accreditation
@Professor Kent:

Studies of the association between (animal or plant) protein and disease incidence may consequently be less reliable if the contributing protein sources are not evaluated in addition to total protein intakes.

The findings of Colin Campbell’s “China Study” did not show that all animal proteins are detrimental to human health. As far as I’m aware laboratory research (with lab rats) only seemed to confirm that one animal protein in particular, casein, is detrimental to human health in the form of the promotion of cancer cell growth. It is suggested that other animal proteins may also function in a similar manner to that of casein, but I don’t think that this has been confirmed in isolation with either animal or human experiments.

Beyond this, of course, The China Study cites a lot of research, not just the one big study in China, all supporting the same conclusion: a plant-based, whole foods diet provides tremendous health benefits over traditional American/European diets. This conclusion also appears to be supported by the fact that Seventh-day Adventists are part of the longest-lived “Blue-Zone” peoples and are the only group of long-lived people that have a mixed ethnic background. This strongly suggests a dietary component to longevity.

There are of course some seemingly valid negative critiques of Campbell’s methods and conclusions. In my opinion, there are most likely numerous contributing variables which tend to favor the vegetarian diet over the diet rich in animal products (as I’ve already noted above).

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


WASC Reviews LSU’s Accreditation
@Bill Sorensen:

“No cross was or will be need for mistakes that have taken place and will continue to take place in heaven that are based on a lack of knowledge.” – Sean Pitman

This is partly true like much of what you have to say. But “partly” is not sufficient to explain or describe all the elements of God’s government.

First, let me say “The cross” is a revelation, not an inovation. The principles of the cross are an essential and eternal part of God’s government.

The “sinless” angels are considered sinless only and precisely because they are accepted “in Christ”.

The sinless angels are considered sinless because they have never rebelled against their consciences – against what they knew to be right. This is the reason why they never needed a Savior to sacrifice himself on the cross as we did… even though they certainly made many mistakes along the way due to a lack of perfect knowledge. They never required redemption from a life of sin as we do.

The cross is also not “eternal” since it was not always needed and never should have been needed in God’s ideal government.
You see, the cross simply was not necessary before the Fall of Adam and Eve because there was no redeemable moral fall before Adam and Eve deliberately chose to rebel against what they knew was right for selfish reasons.

There was of course a moral fall before Adam and Eve – i.e., the fall of Lucifer and those angels that chose to go with him in his rebellion in Heaven. However, this particular fall was unredeemable because they rebelled in the full knowledge of God and the implications of their own actions. There was nothing left that could be done or shown to these rebels that hadn’t already been done.

Adam and Eve, on the other hand, rebelled against what they knew was right, and therefore sinned against their consciences. However, they did not rebel in the full light and understanding of God’s character or with the full understanding of the implications of their actions. Therefore, it was possible to re-establish the relationship between God and man given a further demonstration of the character of God and of the nature of Evil which would have the power to convert many human hearts.

Did Adam and Eve make mistakes in Eden before the Fall? Of course they did, due to their lack of knowledge. But, these were not moral mistakes. Was it possible that Adam could have accidentally tripped Eve when she came around a corner unexpectedly? Of course! Could Eve have accidentally hit Adam in the face with a branch of a tree, not knowing he was directly behind her? Obviously. Clearly, however, such mistakes in action, due to a lack of knowledge, are not sinful. They are amoral mistakes. There is absolutely no need for Jesus to have died on the cross for such amoral mistakes.

You don’t seem to understand that morality requires the conscious ability to make a choice. Robots are not moral agents because they are not free to choose between options nor are they capable of understanding the implications of options. The same is true for animals or even humans that have suffered enough brain damage so that they no longer understand the implications of their actions. A lack of knowledge produces the same effect – it removes moral responsibility to the same degree that there is a lack of knowledge.

You may be a good scientist Sean, but I know theology. I’ll listen to you on scientific issues, you would do well to listen to me on theological issues.

If you do know theology better than I do, you will have to do a whole lot better at explaining yourself in a way that makes much more sense to my simpleton mind.

Just think about what makes humans morally responsible for certain actions while animals or robots wouldn’t be morally responsible for the same actions.

It seems to me, and I may be too simplistic in my thinking to understand, that it all has to do with a conscious realization of what you’re doing and the consequences of your actions.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


WASC Reviews LSU’s Accreditation
@Bill Sorensen:

Suppose I speed through some town and I don’t see a speed limit sign that says 35 miles an hour.

This is a very common example used by people who don’t understand the difference between committing an amoral mistake versus an action against one’s own conscience – a moral wrong.

Just because someone can be convicted for doing something that they didn’t know was wrong doesn’t mean that they can also be convicted for sin. It is for this reason that only God can judge the moral state of a person because only God knows the true heart of a person – the true motive.

When it comes to morality, everything is based on a person’s motive before God – everything.

I repeat again, even in heaven it will be possible to make amoral mistakes due to a lack of infinite knowledge. Some of these mistakes may even have negative consequences for those we love – even in Heaven. Yet, these mistakes will not be considered “sinful” because they weren’t done with malicious intent, but out of ignorance.

I dare say that even angels make such mistakes from time to time. Once the mistake is realized, one apologizes and moves on. There is no sin here. No moral fall has taken place.

My final comment is that you have a warped view of guilt in reference to law. If you break God’s law, you are guilty whether you know it or not.

And you don’t seem to understand that it is impossible to break the moral law without knowing it. One always knows when one breaks the moral law of Love that is written on the hearts of us all. It is for this reason that none of us have any excuse for breaking this law before God – because we already knew what it was and that it was right when we broke it.

So Paul says, “At these times of ignorance, God winked at.” Not because people were not guilty, but because God took into account their ignorance of His will.

They were guilty only of errors based on a lack of knowledge. They were not guilty of sinning against their conscience or “sinning”.

And the only reason God can “wink” at sin or overlook sin is because of the atonement of the cross. So, once again, you have a convoluted non-scriptural view of sin, guilt, and the law.

No cross was or will be need for mistakes that have taken place and will continue to take place in heaven that are based on a lack of knowledge. The cross of Jesus was only needed because of the sin of deliberately going against our conscience – against the moral Law of Love. That is why the relationship was broken between us and God and that is why the cross was necessary to re-establish this relationship.

Our relationship with God was not broken over some honest misunderstanding. Our relationship was broken due to a deliberate rebellion against what we knew was true – against the Law of Love. That’s what broke the relationship.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


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