Re Ron’s Quote “But, virtually all mankind accepts it and uses …

Comment on Further definition on tap for Adventist fundamental belief on creation by Ken.

Re Ron’s Quote

“But, virtually all mankind accepts it and uses it. A fluke?! I don’t think so.”

Hi Ron

Thanks for your comments.

I think you are right. 7 days is an odd number and if different cultures in the same part of the world were using it one may have borrowed from the other. Which raises the question, who was using it first and who borrowed from whom?

From my brief reading I understand that the Babylonians and Sumerians were using the 7 day week before the Hebrews. Also it seems the Babylonians were celebrating the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th days as ‘holy’ days. Compared to the Hebrews this may not be a fluke as well.

Do we have any Adventist historians out there who could weigh in on this interesting topic of the origin of the 7 day week? Fascinating stuff, especially the cross cultural similarities of holy days falling on the 7th day increments.

Your agnostic friend
Ken

Ken Also Commented

Further definition on tap for Adventist fundamental belief on creation
Ken’s Question

“In short what logic dictates the true version was revealed to Moses and Moses alone? I’m fine if the answer is pure faith, but if there is logic behind your conjecture, unfortunately I’m not understanding it.”

Bob’s Answer

“This is a case of the One True God restoring an accurate record of the real account of both creation, the fall of mankind and the flood in the case of Moses.”

Hi Bob

Thanks for your comments

As a matter of your faith I have no problem with your answer.

Do you think God revealed part of the truth to the Sumerians where the versions were similar or was the Sumerian version pure fiction?

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Further definition on tap for Adventist fundamental belief on creation
Re Bob’s Quote

“Those who wish to argue that Abraham and Moses do not come from an acient pre-Babylonian 7-day week culture – but the Babylonians do – would have to show something like historic evidence to make that case.”

Hi Bob

They likely all did. Perhaps the notion of the 7 day week legend got passed down orally until the Sumerians first wrote about it on seven tablets. Thus subsequent cultures, including Hebrew, become imbued with the 7 day legend passed down from generation to generation and between different cultures living in proximate environs.

For example look at the similarity between Greek and Roman Gods. Is it likely the Romans borrowed and modified the pantheon of Hellenistic deities?

Interesting stuff.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Further definition on tap for Adventist fundamental belief on creation
Re Bob’s Quote

“Nothing says that Moses’ very different account could not have been given to him after a few centuries of corruption of the original account by other cultures.

No “science in culture” would dictate that God must reveal the correct version to Moses before anyone had a chance to corrupt their own view of history.”

Hi Bob

Good comments.

Certainly it is possible that Moses? came up with the account independently of the previous versions. But he, and others, may have redacted the original stories as well. That’s why I pointed out the interesting parallels with the use of the # 7 regarding holy days and the similarities of the flood stories.

What’s pagan mythology vs. the inerrant Word of God? Why is the latter more sacred than the former from which it may have been redacted?

Moreover was it Moses who actually wrote the Pentateuch, or a number of different authors( documentary hypothesis or supplementary model) , including Moses? If a number of different authors did so did they modify or adapt, the work of previous others , including Moses? Genesis by committee?

In short what logic dictates the true version was revealed to Moses and Moses alone? I’m fine if the answer is pure faith, but if there is logic behind your conjecture, unfortunately I’m not understanding it.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Recent Comments by Ken

God and Granite Cubes
@ Sean

I enjoyed your article. As I’ve stated before, I think Intelligent Design is a more modern form of Deism and do not think it is irrational. However, as science on an ongoing basis shows what matters are explainable by cause and effect, less is attributable to conscious design. The question of course is what are the limits of science in this regard? For example, will it ever be able to explain First Cause/

Below is a more fulsome quote of Professor Townes, an self acknowledged Protestant Christian. Please note what he has to say about literal creation and evolution. Do you think he is being more reasonable than you on the nature of design?

“I do believe in both a creation and a continuous effect on this universe and our lives, that God has a continuing influence – certainly his laws guide how the universe was built. But the Bible’s description of creation occurring over a week’s time is just an analogy, as I see it. The Jews couldn’t know very much at that time about the lifetime of the universe or how old it was. They were visualizing it as best they could and I think they did remarkably well, but it’s just an analogy.

Should intelligent design be taught alongside Darwinian evolution in schools as religious legislators have decided in Pennsylvania and Kansas?

I think it’s very unfortunate that this kind of discussion has come up. People are misusing the term intelligent design to think that everything is frozen by that one act of creation and that there’s no evolution, no changes. It’s totally illogical in my view. Intelligent design, as one sees it from a scientific point of view, seems to be quite real. This is a very special universe: it’s remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren’t just the way they are, we couldn’t be here at all. The sun couldn’t be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here.
Charles Townes
‘Faith is necessary for the scientist even to get started, and deep faith is necessary for him to carry out his tougher tasks. Why? Because he must have confidence that there is order in the universe and that the human mind – in fact his own mind – has a good chance of understanding this order.’
-Charles Townes, writing in “The Convergence of Science and Religion,” IBM’s Think magazine, March-April 1966
Some scientists argue that “well, there’s an enormous number of universes and each one is a little different. This one just happened to turn out right.” Well, that’s a postulate, and it’s a pretty fantastic postulate – it assumes there really are an enormous number of universes and that the laws could be different for each of them. The other possibility is that ours was planned, and that’s why it has come out so specially. Now, that design could include evolution perfectly well. It’s very clear that there is evolution, and it’s important. Evolution is here, and intelligent design is here, and they’re both consistent.

They don’t have to negate each other, you’re saying. God could have created the universe, set the parameters for the laws of physics and chemistry and biology, and set the evolutionary process in motion, But that’s not what the Christian fundamentalists are arguing should be taught in Kansas.

People who want to exclude evolution on the basis of intelligent design, I guess they’re saying, “Everything is made at once and then nothing can change.” But there’s no reason the universe can’t allow for changes and plan for them, too. People who are anti-evolution are working very hard for some excuse to be against it. I think that whole argument is a stupid one. Maybe that’s a bad word to use in public, but it’s just a shame that the argument is coming up that way, because it’s very misleading. “


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”

Hello Sean

First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.

Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!

However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.

I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. 🙁 .

However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.

Good luck in your pursuit of God.

Goodbye
Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Wes’s Quote

“. But for a Christian, a great devolution, a great recidivation, a tragic forfeiture, foreclosure, worse. If I were to use the vocabulary of some of our recent posters, I’d not put it as delicately.”

Hi Wes and Sean

I just read again portions on ID from Sean’s website Detecting Design. I am very confused by both of your responses. Why the heck is Sean promoting ID as a scientific theory if this is such a Christian retreat? Perhaps you two differ here? I apologize if I am missing the obvious but I see a tremendous disconnect between what Sean is saying about ID and what he is prepared to do to promote it within the subset of Adventist education.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”

Hi Sean

The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?

Conviction requires courage period.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Intelligent Design

Gentleman, thanks to all for your fulsome replies.

Yes Wes, I remember your cogent analysis of November 14/11. I appreciared it then and its reiteration now. indeed I was waiting to hear from others especially Sean whose site is named Detecting Design. And, here I agree with Bob, ID
does not necessarily rule out any particular design i. e. fiat
creation ot theistic evolution.

But quite frankly I am disaapointed with Sean’s response, not Sean himself for whom I have deep admiration, because I see this as a step backward. Why? Because if you burn the bridge between science and biblical faith it will not be science that suffers.

Ironically Sean makes many fine, cogent arguments for design in nature so I find his reluctance to promote it formally in Adventist education troubling. Respectfully, I don’t think serious enquiry about reality can creep around the periphery or sneak in through the back door. I’m afraid I see a double standard here.

Yes Wes, I understand why Adventists are nervous on this issue. But if one is seeking the truth about reality one can’t wall it in or burn bridges of enquiry. Wes, perhaps the Hellenic maxim should have not so much: Know thyself, but rather Think for thyself. My park bench in Pugwash is a welcome one but does not feature ontological dividers. It is well designed for truth seekers.

Your agnostic friend
Ken