God never asks anyone to step out on faith that …

Comment on PUC Professor: The Noachian Flood was just a local flood? by ke6gwf.

God never asks anyone to step out on faith that is devoid of the weight of superior empirical evidence – never.As with Abraham, Noah was not asked to believe God’s word regarding his ability to produce the “miraculous” without the demonstration of the weight of empirical evidence that would appeal to a candid mind that is open to truth.

Ok Sean, you are saying that Noah had empirical evidence to base his faith on.
So, what was the empirical evidence he had proving the flood was going to happen? Or was the empirical evidence supporting that God was truthful, and based on that previous evidence, Noah knew that if God said it, it was true.

I have empirical evidence showing that the Bible is true, and that God is trustworthy.
Just because I lack empirical evidence for every story in the Bible does not impact my faith. It’s like a bridge, you have a few pillars holding it up and a good foundation at the end, and the rest is faith.

If you would allow something that Sister White states we won’t have overwhelming empirical evidence for undermine your faith, then is it possible you are basing your faith in the evidence instead of in God?

How about when they were crossing the Jordan, and God told them to just walk across. The water didn’t part until feet hit it. What was the empirical evidence they were basing their faith on?
What was the empirical evidence the antediluvians had in favor of Noah’s warnings?
What was the empirical evidence that Jesus presented to the people he told to stand up and walk, or stretch their hand out, or any number of other examples where he told someone to do something entirely based on faith.

If you have to have overwhelming evidence to support your faith, then you have no faith.


ke6gwf Also Commented

PUC Professor: The Noachian Flood was just a local flood?

Ness has provided about 5 posts here and is on record in his videos giving his views. At no point does Ness say “I teach/promote/believe in a 7 day creation week less than 10,000 years ago”. That is pretty surprising IF it were true that Ness simply wants to play devil’s advocate at times – per request of the PUC religion department – and as such is being misrepresented here.Not ONE PUC person has come here and stated that they know for a fact that Ness’ position is firmly and clearly teaching “7 day creation week less than 10,000 years ago” as the event that happened “in nature”.

So, we have here a case of a brother in Christ who might (or might not) be in error on a point of foundation truth.
He might (or might not) be teaching this belief to his students.

I see a lot of attacks on Brother Ness, and a lot of concern on the fact the he might (or maybe not) be teaching error.

Where is the concern about the fact that he might (or might not) be deceived on a subject that could put his salvation in doubt?
Does nobody care about him?
It seems most are treating him as a deliberate transgressor with intent to deceive our precious saintly students.

If you have concerns about your brother, you go talk to him, and with the leading of the Holy Spirit share your concern with him and study the Bible and see how many points you can agree on. You must also stay open to the idea that you might have a wrong understanding, and allow the Spirit to guide you too!

Anybody care to set down in a Bible Study (not a debate!) with Dr. Ness and search together to find out what the Bible says and how it matches with nature?

I have just looked, and I can find no Bible text or quote from Sister White recommending sharing your concerns via a public website in a third person comment making assumptions about what you think he might believe. Just ain’t there! (Parts of this comment are aimed at others, I tend to lump things)


PUC Professor: The Noachian Flood was just a local flood?
I, Ben Blackburn affirm the following:

I believe that there is One True Creator God, know by many names by many people through the ages and the nations and the peoples.

I believe that He inspired His servants to translate the scenes and language of heaven into the words of humanity so that we might have a clearer understanding if Him.

I believe that He sends his Holy Spirit to show us the correct interpretation of what He has revealed to us through the Bible and through His second Book, Nature.

I believe that when we allow the Holy Spirit to guide our understanding, the stories in the Bible will be found to match the record found in Nature.

I believe that Jesus came down and took on our fallen nature and was tempted like as we are, but showed us that triumph is possible!

I believe that Jesus rose from the grave after gaining victory over sin, and taking on our sins, defying all humanly known laws of nature.

I believe I have no empirical evidence to prove this yet, but just as when a long time friend tells you something you believe them based on their track record;
I believe the Word of God!

I believe I still have an imperfect understanding of the Bible and of Nature, and therefore I expect and pray that God will allow me to be shown what I need to discard and what I need to accept.

I believe that there are probably some really major things I got wrong!

I believe in the literal interpretation of the literal parts of the Bible, and the need to discern which parts are which.

I believe that the world and all that in it is was created by the Word in 6 days as we know them.

I believe that Noah’s Flood happened exactly as the Bible says it did, despite what any (mis)interpretation of nature may say.

I believe that it is important to know what the methods and arguments of the devil are so that we can be prepared to answer them.

I believe that it is important to know the methods and teachings of the Creator by heart, so that we can say “thus saith the Lord…” when we are confronted by error, and so that we can discern between the two.

I believe that the study of Nature is just as important as the study of the Bible, since they are both the Word of God.

( “The Saviour’s life on earth was a life of communion with nature and with God. In this communion He revealed for us the secret of a life of power.
All who are under the training of God need the quiet hour for communion with their own hearts, with nature, and with God…. We must individually hear Him speaking to the heart. When every other voice is hushed, and in quietness we wait before Him, the silence of the soul makes more distinct the voice of God. He bids us, “Be still, and know that I am God.” This is the effectual preparation for all labor for God. Amidst the hurrying throng and the strain of life’s intense activities, he who is thus refreshed will be surrounded with an atmosphere of light and peace. He will receive a new endowment of both physical and mental strength. His life will breathe out a fragrance and will reveal a divine power that will reach men’s hearts.” {CH 163.2} )

I believe in the importance in understanding the reasons behind the commands and councils we are given.

(“Since the laws of nature are the laws of God, it is plainly our duty to give these laws careful study. We should study their requirements in regard to our own bodies and conform to them. Ignorance in these things is sin. {CCh 215.6}”)

I believe that this website should be cleansed of all debate and strife and taint of the evil one.

I believe this website should be re-dedicated to showing the reliable evidence for the Biblical version of events, so that as we work with the teachers and schools of this Remnant Church, we have a resource and a place to share and reach a deeper understanding of God’s truth without all the debate and strife we find in the world right now.

I believe that any who continue bucking the straight councils are allowing themselves to be led by the father of lies, and are dragging precious souls away the the Source of all Truth.

I ask that this debate not be carried on by any of you that truly are wanting to follow the example of our Saviour.

I pray that I have had no negative affects on any of you, and that the Lord will work mightily through you to spread the Gospel to the world, including to those that claim the name of Christ but do not know Him.


Ben Blackburn
bblackburn@puc.edu (former back-end staff)
“What affect do you have on those around you?”
“Survival is what you do in the city, Living is what I do in the wilderness!”

PUC Professor: The Noachian Flood was just a local flood?
“The spirit of debate, of controversy, is a device of Satan to stir up combativeness, and thus eclipse the truth as it is in Jesus. Many have thus been repulsed instead of being won to Christ. {RH, February 9, 1892 par. 12}”

“Do not repeat the words of your opponents, or enter into controversy with them. You meet not merely the men, but Satan and his angels. Christ did not bring against Satan a railing accusation concerning the body of Moses. If the world’s Redeemer, who understood the crooked, deceptive arts of Satan, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but in holiness and humility said, “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan,” is it not wise for His servants to follow His example? Will finite human beings take a course that Christ shunned, because it would afford Satan occasion to pervert, misrepresent, and falsify the truth? {UL 270.3} ”

Does anybody see this debate as having an end?

Does anybody see the slightest chance that something will be said that will change their mind? The other debaters think the same thing!

Has anybody noticed that most of the participants of this debate remain totally silent on the very clear and direct inspired statements shared a couple of days ago denouncing this kind of debate, almost as if they enjoy it too much to quit?

Is anybody so deluded by enjoyment of debate, indignation or the father of lies himself that they think this debate is actually doing anybody any good?

(I have included a select few out of many pages of texts and quotes I have on just the subject of debate. I will be glad to discuss these and the rest elsewhere)

The best thing for the Church of Christ would be if this website and all this debate disappeared. This website is the exact opposite of how Jesus showed us how to behave ourselves, and is a stain on His church.

That is not to say that there are not errors that need rooting out, or that we don’t need to study these subjects with prayer and searching, but fighting about who can better spin words is the way the Scribes and Pharisees debated. Jesus stood calmly, said “thus saith the Lord…”, rebuked them and walked away.

@Sean, I call on you to answer this question:
Have you been fully following the councils we have received on how to discuss points of Biblical doctrine, and how to rebuke those that are in error?
If not, what are you going to do to correct any oversights that you can rectify?

I am just as guilty as any of you on ignoring or being ignorant of the correct way to handle things. I ask you forgiveness for my debating.
It is now my duty to council, and if necessary, rebuke those that are causing strife in the church.

I ask any of you that understand that this is not a correct way to treat each other or this subject to take a stand. Make an affirmative statement of what you believe and why, and then make an affirmative statement that this debate should end and the record of it in the form of this website should be removed so that others will not be driven away from Christ due to our bickering.

“Satan has gained many victories over the professed followers of Jesus through their unchristlike spirit and behavior toward their brethren who do not agree with them, and toward unbelievers. The discussion of doctrines has not resulted in bringing union, but variance. A bitter spirit has been cherished, bitter words have been spoken. The words of the True Witness should be carefully studied by all: “I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love,” RH, February 9, 1892

We are supposed to one in Him! How can we treat each other like this then?

“When differences arise among brethren as to the understanding of any point of truth, there is one Bible rule to follow. In the spirit of meekness and love for God and one another, let brethren come together, and after earnest prayer, with sincere desire to know God’s will, study the Bible with the spirit of a little child, to see how closely they can draw together, and not sacrifice anything but their selfish dignity. They should regard themselves as in the presence of the whole universe of God, who are watching with intense interest as brother tries to see eye to eye with brother, to understand the words of Christ, that they may be doers of the word, and not hearers only.”
“When you recall the prayer of Christ, that his disciples may be one as he was one with the Father, can you not see how intently all heaven is beholding the spirit you manifest toward one another? Are those who claim to be saved by the righteousness of Christ, seeking with all their entrusted capabilities to answer the Saviour’s prayer? Will they grieve the Holy Spirit of God by indulging their own unconsecrated feelings, struggling for supremacy, and standing as far apart as possible? . . .

The solemn, important hours intervening between us and the judgment are not to be employed in warfare with believers.” {GCDB, February 6, 1893} ”

And Jesus wept…