Comment on Are LSU professors breaking the 8th commandment? by Sean Pitman M.D..

BobRyan: Well I certainly agree that the law regarding entropy “is also” preserved on the Sun. My point is — that is not how science first came to observe the law of increased entropy being preserved here on earth. The reason is that every energy transfer we see here on earth — still obeys that law even without the need to “add something in” the equation regarding events on the sun.

The concept of thermodynamic entropy is based on evaluation of closed systems which do not receive additional energy which could be used to do useful work from outside of the system. When you are talking about living things, the system in question always includes the Sun because that is where the energy of living things is ultimately derived. Therefore, when you are talking about the entropy of living things, you cannot exclude the Sun. Living things are not closed systems.

Which is where the evolutionist argument fails. They would like to try and get the Sun to “make up the difference” but that is not how the measurements for entropy work at all.

For example – We do not argue that the reaction HCL + NAOH –> H20 + NACl — will only exhibit an increase in entropy IF you take into acount the entropy at the Sun.

Again, you are referring to isolated systems which need no ultimate energy from the Sun to proceed. This chemical reaction you mention will work as a closed system. This is not true of living things, gene pools, or an argument against the evolution of living things. There is plenty of thermodynamic energy available for evolutionary progress. Therefore, a lack of thermodynamic energy to do useful work is simply not the problem with the ToE.

Sean
The cell is not a closed system. The energy it uses comes from outside of itself. It doesn’t matter if the energy transfer is not 100% because there is so much more of it available that 100% efficiency is not required for continued useful work which could go on indefinitely as long as the Sun shines

Bob:
And again – I think this shows where you are missing a key piece of the problem for evolutionists.

1. The fact is – it will not “go on indefinitely” — because at every energy exchange/transition (every chemical reaction) step energy is being lost. Thus the fact is that the cell is “wearing down” over time. Unless work is directed to keep it going in a kind of “immortal cell” fashion – it wears out due to the continual action of entropy.

This is where you confuse thermodynamic entropy with meaningful/functional informational entropy. As long as the informational aspects of the cell remain intact, there is plenty of available energy from the Sun for the biosystem to remain functional. Therefore, it isn’t a loss of energy available to do useful work over time. It is a loss of the needed level of informational complexity to transform and direct the raw energy to do useful work that is the problem.

Thermodynamic entropy is defined within a closed system as a degree of non-homology where energy can flow from one place to another in an unequal manner. This unequal flow can be taken advantage of to do useful work. However, just because it is possible to take advantage of such a system to do useful work doesn’t mean that the right structural setup is available within the system to do useful work. The right structural setup requires a certain degree of meaningful/functional informational complexity. Without this right setup in place, the potential energy of the system would simply be wasted.

The same thing is true of living things. Just because a living thing breaks down or wears out doesn’t meant that the thermodynamics of the Earth-Sun system have reached maximum entropy – i.e., that there is no more energy that could be transformed to do useful work. That’s not true at all. There is plenty of energy – even if the functional informational complexity is not there to take advantage of it.

2. The fact that entropy is increased at every step in my computer example (even electricity going through wires and being decreased in the form of friction/heat through the wire) – does not mean the computer does not work. It simply means that it requires more engergy to go into the sytem than the system can actually use – because there is no such thing as a 100% effecient transfer of energy.

Again, you are confusing MFIE (meaningful/functional informational entropy) with TDE (thermodynamic entropy). MFIE has the power to decrease local TDE over time. It really does. However, this ability of MFIE to decrease local TDE of subsystems within larger thermodynamic systems is dependent upon a certain level of MFI.

It also means that “given enough time” the computer will wear out.

Not because of a lack of thermodynamic energy, but because of a loss of functional/meaningful information.

the same principle applies to the cell – it is going towards equillibrium over time.

Again, this simply isn’t true when it comes to TDE. A cell has the power to decrease TDE over time. And, when you’re talking about generations of cells, this process can be carried out indefinitely as long as the Sun shines, the mutation rate is low enough, and the reproductive rate is high enough.

In the evolutionist model the dust and gas — ‘turn into a cell’ of their own accord instead of simply being “driven toward equilibrium” as entropy would dictate. In their model single celled organism “turn into multi-celled life forms” of their own accord – given enough time. And so on.

This isn’t a limitation of TDE, but of MFIE. The energy differential to make this transformation is available. It is just that the type of information needed is not available… subtle, but important conceptual difference.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

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