Comment on La Sierra University won’t neglect creation teaching, president, chairman vow by Sean Pitman.
God has given us the ability to put our emotions under the control of our minds. Emotions are not to govern the mind. Rather, the mind is to govern the emotions. We therefore need not and should not let our higher reasoning abilities be “hijacked” by our emotions.
There was no valid reason for Eve to have been tricked into sin. If there was, she would not have been guilty of sin. She had the clear weight of empirical evidence favoring the reliability of God’s love and His word.
For Eve to then act contrary to this weight of evidence because she personally desired for the words of the serpent to be true was therefore an act of selfishness – an act contrary to the love of what she knew to be true.
That, by definition, is sin – a deliberate rebellion against the Royal Law of Love. No one is really truly tricked into sin. Sin must be a deliberate rebellion against what is known to be true in order for the act to be sinful. After all, wasn’t it Jesus who said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin”? (John 9:41 NIV)
Professor Kent: “>You wrote in another post:
Oh really? How was the empirical evidence available to Noah any different than what we have today?
When was the last time you talked directly with God? When was the last time you went to the Garden of Eden and saw, with your own eyes, an angel with a flashing sword guarding the way? Have you lived several hundred years and experienced innumerable answers to prayer that could only have been the result of the miraculous hand of God? Noah could say yes to all of these questions. This is why Noah, even without the Bible, could rationally believe the Word of God as actually coming from a God who would bring to pass what he had promised – as He had done for Noah so many times before.
God knows that He must provide evidence of who He is before He can be rationally believed and trusted. God does not expect us to blindly follow all voices (or texts) claiming to be from God. He provides actual evidence that appeals to the candid mind. It is only in the rejection of such evidence that we fall into sin for deliberately rejecting what we rationally know to be true.
Let the reader compare Seanâ€™s claims to the statement of Ellen White:
â€œBY FAITH Noah, being warned of God OF THINGS NOT SEEN AS YET [therefore lacking empirical evidence of validity], moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.â€ Hebrews 11:7. While Noah was giving his warning message to the world, his works testified of his sincerity. It was thus that his faith was perfected and made evident. HE GAVE THE WORLD AN EXAMPLE OF BELIEVING JUST WHAT GOD SAYS.(emphasis supplied) â€“ EGW, PP chptr 7
Indeed. But, he believed based on the evidence, the empirical evidence, that he had experienced with God prior to building the Ark. He wasn’t following the direction of some strange voice coming to him out of nowhere. He had extensive experience with God that included abundant empirical evidence that God was someone who could be trusted and who was immensely powerful.
Sean, what would you advise Elder Neil Wilson if he announced that the SDA Church was going to engage in a massive fund-raising campaign and construction program to erect a massive dam around the entirety of Greenlandâ€™s coast, because, he claimed, God had appeared to him personally and instructed him to do this to save the planet from global warming, which the glacier ice melt would facilitate? Would you tell him to stick with trust in Godâ€™s word, or would you tell him to use his reason and all available empirical evidence to recognize the sheer absurdity of Godâ€™s instruction?
I would hope that he had been given a clear sign that what he heard was in fact the voice of God. Again, many voices falsely claim to be the Word of God. You have to be able to tell the true from the false. How is this done? Via the establishment of empirical evidence that appeals to the rational higher mind. Otherwise, you have no real basis for accepting one voice that claims to be the voice of God over any other voice claiming to be the voice of God.
And one more question: what would YOU have done if you were an antedulivian and heard Noahâ€™s urging to join him and his family in the ark? Would you have listened to Noah (Godâ€™s word), or relied on your reason, your knowledge of scientifically based empirical evidence? After all, the world had never seen rain or a flood, much less a massive boat built far from the coast.
The entire world had seen an angel guarding the Garden entrance. Also, the entire world was show the miraculous sign of the animals going into the Ark via an unseen hand that should have been clear evidence of Noah’s connection with the Divine. Also, the entire world was well aware of the evil state of the world and that the words of Noah in this regard were empirically true. Because of this, the citizens of Nineveh who repented at the preaching of Jonah will stand up in the final judgment and condemn the antediluvian world who refused to repent at the preaching of Noah…
You seen the Antediluvian people were not destroyed so much because they didn’t get on the Ark. They were destroyed because their thoughts had become evil continually and they refused to repent of what they knew were their evil ways at the preaching of Noah.
Sean Pitman Also Commented
Interpreting the meaning of Scripture is not the same thing as determining the credibility or reliability of what Scripture is saying. A novel or a fairytale can be internally consistent and its meaning clearly understood. A very well written internally consistent text claiming to be the Word of God doesn’t mean it actually is the Word of God. Bald claims simply aren’t enough to establish reliability because many falsely make such claims. Therefore, one must be able to make a determination between the false and the true based on some external reference – i.e., some actual external evidence that verifies the claim of a given individual or text.
Your argument that one must simply trust God doesn’t explain how one determines who, among many claimed representatives of God, is actually the true representative (such as the case of Elijah on Mt. Carmel). Upon what basis does one decide to trust one and not another? You have yet to seriously address this question.
Satan’s appeal to Eve was not based on the weight of empirical evidence. The weight of empirical evidence available to Eve was strongly in support of what she had been told by God. It was God, not the serpent, who had given abundant empirical evidence of his love, care, and creative power to both Adam and Eve. Eve wasn’t tricked for a lack of the clear weight of empirical evidence. She was tricked because she let her emotions overcome her higher reasoning capabilities. Satan appealed, not so much to her mind, but to her emotions.
In fact, it would have been wrong for God to punish Eve had He not already provided her with the abundant weight of evidence with regard to his own character and nature. The sin of Eve was in knowing who God was and His love for her, yet rejecting His love in an effort to selfishly try to acquire something that was not hers. In other words, she tried to steal from God in the full light of the empirical knowledge of God. She deliberately broke the Royal Law of Love.
She could not plead innocence due to ignorance or she would have done so. If she had truly been ignorant of the Royal Law, of having acted contrary to love for the One who had demonstrated overwhelming empirical evidence of His love for her, she would not have felt shame nor would she, together with Adam, have tried to hide from the face of God…
This is the danger of empirically-blind faith in anything. Such faith is emotion-driven. It isn’t based on God-given reasoning abilities to discern truth based on the weight of empirical evidence that he has provided to appeal to the candid mind.
“God gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and a teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence. God gives sufficient evidence for the candid mind to believe; but he who turns from the weight of evidence because there are a few things which he cannot make plain to his finite understanding, will be left in the cold, chilling atmosphere of unbelief and questioning doubts, and will make shipwreck of faith.â€
– Ellen White, Testimonies Ibid., vol 3, p. 255; Ibid., vol. 5, p. 675., vol. 4, pp. 232, 233; Ibid., vol. 5, pp. 675, 676.
I love empirical data myself, and engage in collecting or analyzing it on a regular basis. I think it can illuminate much about scripture. However, it cannot be put on equal footing or higher than Godâ€™s word. If scripture and empirical evidence conflict, the faithful SDA is going to choose Godâ€™s word regardless.
One cannot determine if Scripture is in fact likely to be God’s Word vs. other options without rational thought – rational thought that takes into account the overall weight of available evidence. Emotion-driven religion need not be based on rational thoughts or arguments or evidence of any kind; but emotions are also not a very reliable basis for much of anything.
For example, the founding fathers (and mother) of the SDA Church believed at one point that the Bible clearly said that Jesus would come in 1844. Well, Jesus did not come on 1844. The empirical evidence overwhelmingly falsified their Biblical interpretation.
The only reason why they did not give up on the Bible entirely is because the clear reading and interpretation of the Bible had proved so reliable in so many other instances where it could be tested against empirical reality. If all or even most other Biblical interpretations concerning empirical reality had failed just as miserably, no rational person would long be able to take it at face value as being the Word of God with any kind of reliability or predictive value with regard to any kind of truth whatsoever.
Unfortunately, there are certain SDA university faculty weâ€™ve read much about here, and at least one SDA physician, who prioritize science and empirical data ahead of a simple â€œThus saith the Lord.â€
Anyone can say, “Thus saith the Lord” all day long. That phrase doesn’t mean anything by itself. It isn’t some magical chant. Prophets and all kinds of “Scriptures” claim to be from God. Yet, there are false prophets and false Scriptures and even false interpretations of true Scripture. How does one tell the true from the false? How is the Bible detected as being the one true ultimate revelation of God’s will? by which all other “revelations” can then be tested?
If one wishes to have a rational religion that is based on something more than wishful thinking and warm fuzzy feelings inside, one is forced to use one’s brain at least a little bit – i.e., to actually evaluate and test the Bible to “see if it is good” – to see if it is in fact what it claims to be. The Bible itself invites such empirical tests. It actually challenges its readers to put its own claims to the test and see if they are not true. The Bible bases its own claims on testable empirical realities that are open for all to investigate.
The truth really has nothing to fear from being put to the test. If God is the Truth, then He has nothing to fear from being put to the test either…
God knows and understands our subjective nature. That is why He does not judge us for being confused or making honest mistakes at times. We are only judged for making deliberate decisions against what we know to be true…
Sean, Certainly science can inform us and unveil to us better understandings of God. But both theologians and scientist would do well to take a more humble stance acknowledging that whatever they believe, observe, or measure that informs about God, it is only a shadow of the infinite reality, and might even be incorrect beliefs, skewed observations, or mis-measures.
Indeed. This is why the SDA Church takes its position on the concept of “Present Truth”… recognizing that we do in fact “see through a glass darkly” and cannot know “The Truth” with absolute perfection or assurance.
We are subjective creatures and are therefore subject to the very real possibility of error in any beliefs we may hold about the nature of the world and universe in which we live… to include our own interpretations of the Bible or any other text we may or may not consider to be Divinely inspired. It is for this reason that religion or religious ideas need to be based on a component of scientific or empirically-based reasoning in order for them to become practically useful as a basis of a rational hope in the future.
It is only in this way that one is able to admit that one’s religious ideas are actually subject to the potential for falsification given additional evidence. Blind-faith positions are the truly dogmatic positions which cannot be changed regardless of the evidence or “rational” arguments presented. After all, faith that is not based on any form of empirical evidence or rational thought cannot be changed or altered via the presentation of any kind of empirical evidnece or rational argument. There is really nothing that can be said to change the mind of such a person – as Jesus himself explained several times.
Empirically-blind faith is therefore based on emotion rather than an intelligent understanding or appreciation of the evidence. This is why those with blind faith find it extremely difficult to even consider the possibliity that they might be wrong in their beliefs or understanding of reality.
I think Biblical Christianity takes a more humble approach to the abilities of humans when it comes to our ability to approach Truth.
Recent Comments by Sean Pitman
Pastor Doug Hardt: Vaccines, Liberty and the Bible
A term promoted by Dr. Robert Malone? – borrowed from Mattias Desmet? – attempting to make parallels with Nazi Germany and the rise of Hitler in the 1930s? where millions of people have been “hypnotized” into believing mainstream ideas about COVID-19, including steps to combat it such as testing and vaccination? Yes, I’ve heard of it. What nonsense (Link).
Just because you’re swimming against the crowd, just because you’re in the minority, doesn’t mean that you’re right. Occasionally, the consensus opinion of medical scientists, experts in their fields of study, who have devoted their lives to studying such things as pandemics and vaccines, is actually right.
Pastor Doug Hardt: Vaccines, Liberty and the Bible
I think he’s seriously mistaken regarding pretty much all of his major points (Link).
Pastor Doug Hardt: Vaccines, Liberty and the Bible
Oh, I have, but this “Religious Liberty Weekend” was full of misinformation and outright falsehoods regarding COVID-19 and the vaccines against it – which I’ve discussed in this forum in some detail already.
The talk of Conrad Vine, which you directly link to here, doesn’t make sense to me. He’s discussing a GC position on vaccines published in 2015 – well before the current pandemic began. His claim that the GC ADCOM exceeded its authority by releasing a position statement on immunization in 2015 just doesn’t fly for a number of reasons. I particularly agree with David Hamstra where he addressed Vine’s argument on liberty of conscience regarding vaccines:
As far as I can tell, Dr. Vine’s line of reasoning that makes every health choice a matter for claims of conscience makes every potential choice into a matter for a claim of conscience, for which domain of human activity does the Holy Spirit not want to guide? And if every choice deserves protection for conscience’s sake, then no choices can be given protection for conscience’s sake because sinful human beings would become ungovernable. (Link)
In short, I think one’s personal liberty of conscience ends where the nose of someone else begins. I see this as the very basis of reasonable civil governments and the enforcement of reasonable civil laws – ordained by God Himself (Link). So, unless you’re living on an island, by all means, the civil laws of the land, which Paul claims has Divine Authority to set up civil laws that may in fact restrict individual liberties for the good of society as a whole, should be obeyed unless they directly violate a clear command of God to the contrary. No such Divine command exists regarding vaccines – which I see as nothing short of a gift of God to combat diseases that have long plagued humanity with endless suffering and death – having historically killed off billions of people in this world. Thanks to vaccines, many of these diseases have either been completely eliminated or significantly reduced.
Natural vs. Vaccine-derived Immunity
I’m biased here since I’m a physician myself. While I personally do not favor vaccine mandates for the general public since I think that they are largely counterproductive, I personally feel that medical providers are in a different category and that medical providers (like doctors and nurses and nursing home workers) should be required to be vaccinated since they deal directly with those who are sick and most vulnerable to serious infection. Timely boosters should also be required for medical personnel since boosters have clearly been shown to improve immunity after 6 months since the previous vaccine was given.
As far as “Long-COVID”, it is a real risk following a COVID-19 infection, but isn’t a risk following vaccination. The vaccines have not been associated with the symptoms of Long-COVID since vaccines are not based on the use of a live virus that invades the entire body. In fact, there are some research studies that suggest that many Long-COVID cases are likely related to persistent COVID-19 infections (Link). This is probably why many of those who have Long-COVID improve following vaccination.