A Proposal Dear Friends This morning I read your posts with …

Comment on The Heroic Crusade Redux by ken.

A Proposal

Dear Friends

This morning I read your posts with delight. I have learned and am learning so much from you on matters of faith. No matter my agnostic point of view that has been of immense benefit to me.

But we all believe, to a smaller or larger degree, a bit differently don’t we?

I think that what Dr Kime has proposed and Dr. Pitman is trying to do is noble, insofar as the Adventist faith is concerned. But I think that Professor Kent’s and Erv Taylor’s take on what the weight of empirical evidence points to is accurate.I also think that Stephen Hawkings proposal that our universe may be merely a quantum burp out of nothing may be a deeply religious statement. I also think that all of religion(s) are man made, evolving social constructs (s) to help cope with and explain reality.

Now, with all this strange, unique, meld of ‘beliefs’ I might be able to form a new church: Scienagnology, or Empitmankinenolgy, or Kentaylorfaithology, or Exhawkingnitholgy. And If I had the charisma, commitment and time I might be able to attract followers – and tithes- to my enterprise.

So what you say, what be the point? That we all think differently and may indeed not be objective, unbiased readers ( no offense Bob, I include myself in the motley subjective gang!) So is Dr. Pitman cherry picking empirical data to support Genesis? Is Erv Taylor molding doctrine to evolution to progressively rationalize
Adventism? Does Prof Kent’s homage to faith above science defang or exalt faith? Is Stephen Hawkings attempting to avoid First Cause, by saying before the quantum burp that gave birth to our universe there was no Time for a First Cause? Making the universe out of nothing, now that all sounds vaguely familiar to me..hmmm. Grand Design indeed. Is agnostic Ken the unwitting, ultimate ‘Puck’, agent provocateur of some dark force or a small Kimeian shreddy, shred, shred of support for the golden weld for the marriage of Reality to God? All the above? None of the above? Some of the above?

Here is my proposal, for ‘all’ of us that think, at least a tad, differently. That for one week we treat each other with the same respect and love that Christ would, notwithstanding our many differences. Let’s truly see if we can find that grace together on this wonderful forum.

With love and respect, your agnostic friend

ken Also Commented

The Heroic Crusade Redux
Dear Wes

Never left my friend, just been waiting in the wings observing the Dramatis Personae and thinking.


The curtain opens and our noble Dr. Pitman enters.

“I’ll have grounds
More relative than this- the play’s the thing
Wherein I’ll catch the conscience of the Adventist King”

Your agnostic Puck

The Heroic Crusade Redux

Here we are by accident or design
Savoring a bit of ontological wine
Why sour the cup with toxic slur?
Who knows best the Cosmic Vitner?

For Here taste well of varietal drink
The Mind’s Tongue will help you think
Though different tastes, have no fear
All in fellowship, drink in grace Here

Your agnostic friend

The Heroic Crusade Redux
Dear Wes

Dr. Kime, the personification of Sublime.

From the ether of quantum fluctuations, your agnostic friend

Recent Comments by ken

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Hi Bob

I asked once before and I’ll ask again: what is your background and expertise in biology?

Your agnostic friend

Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Re: What every human being on the planet believes?

Empirically, as i don’t have blind faith I could know this, perhaps it could only be a divine being that could do so. 🙂

Always open to correction though to those that know the absolute truth,

I remain,
Your agnostic friend

A “Christian Agnostic”?
Re Bob’s Quote

“But we can “observe” that the making of complex systems (and books, and works of art and science) is done by “creators” every day – observable, repeatable, testable. A mechanism proven to work.”

Hi Bob

Thanks for your comments.

This may surprise you but I’m actually intrigued by the design argument. My Dad is a Deist although I’m not of that bent, at least not yet! The laws of nature, i.e. gravity, that even allow the universe to exist are pretty marvelous. Did they arise as a result of a random quantum fluctuation or was their Grand Designer behind it all. If so what is or was the nature of such designer based on what we empirically observe about our universe?

The problem I have with intelligent design within our universe and especially regarding life on earth is theodicy. I do understand how the concept of original biblical sin accounts for the loss of perfection, but I have a very tough time understanding why a God would cause such destruction of his creation based on the disobedience of the literal eating of an apple. I just can’t rationally fathom how the eventual and natural demise of our solar system can be based on Man’s fall. Empirically, through science we can now view the death, and birth, of stars. Was this all caused by eating forbidden fruit?

Thus one must ask: why would a good, compassionate God create a Universe, and sentient life, that suffers and dies? Age old problem, that in my estimation has been allegorically resolved through the Genesis narrative.

Let’s move on to evolution. Micro evolution does not seem to be a problem for anyone. Life does adapt to its environment through genetic change. In my mind the issue becomes what happens over billions of years. After considering everything I have read to date I cannot honestly see an overwhelming case for a young earth. Moreover I have not read or heard anything yet that such a view can be scientifically supported by anyone without a biblical creationist bias. Given enough time great change will occur as evidenced by the vast diversity of life spread over every niche of our planet. Were there kangaroos on the Ark, or did they evolve in an isolated part of the world from whence they could not spread?

I don’t think evolution is a fraud or a hoax. Too many educated people of faith believe and accept it for it to be an atheist conspiracy. Have their been mistakes made and will they continue to be made? Are there dishonest scientists? Certainly. They are fallible humans, just like you and I, after all. But the issue is what does the weight of all the multidisciplinary evidence indicate?

Hope that helps

Your agnostic friend

Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”

Hello Sean

First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.

Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!

However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.

I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. 🙁 .

However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.

Good luck in your pursuit of God.

Your agnostic friend

Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”

Hi Sean

The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?

Conviction requires courage period.

Your agnostic friend