@Bob “With regard to the concept of a multiverse, any possible …

Comment on Science, Methodological Naturalism, and Faith by george.

@Bob

“With regard to the concept of a multiverse, any possible scientific inference for its existence seems to be dying along with SUSY and string theory, as data come in from the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland.”

Are you sure about that? Please see link below. Evidence is tricky business!

www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=5907

george Also Commented

Science, Methodological Naturalism, and Faith
Bill,

That was very illuminating. Your biblical erudition is quite remarkable and I greatly respect your point of view.

As I do not think I have encountered anything higher than human reasoning? – I must rely on it to make sense. This I believe represents historically how Science has developed independent of theism or atheism as an objective tool of Man.

The conundrum of course is that if human reasoning is fallible how could it even understand a higher reasoning – biblical revelation as being infallible? Only through faith, not empiricism is likely the answer.


Science, Methodological Naturalism, and Faith
@ Dr. Pitman

“Yet, it is not unreasonable or unscientific to accept the claims of historians regarding the events of the life of someone like Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan…”

So when there are conflicting accounts without physical corroboration which ones does one accept? Or are they all subject to the bias of the storyteller or witnesses? Take the battle of Kadesh for example: which account is true: the Egyptian or Hittite, or neither?

Beware the history of victors and prophets because their stories come with strings attached!

The fact that biblical stories have parallels and similarities to older stories is not coincidental. Always ask, which came first and hence borrowed from earlier versions.


Science, Methodological Naturalism, and Faith
“Furthermore, the Babylonian stories are not the only ones that resemble Genesis. Even North American and Polynesian cultures have their own native flood accounts that are remarkably similar to the one in Genesis. ”

Exactly, historically which accounts came first? Did Babylonian writing predate the Bible? Was the Epic of Gilamesh recorded before the Noachian flood. Did Moses redact from the Epic of Gilamesh? Do later cultures borrow and adapt stories from earlier ones? Of course they do.

So when one sees these sort of parallells, redactions, borrowings between cultures what should one conclude? That one and only one account is infallibly correct? That takes faith my friends rather than reason that the word(s) of god(s) and prophet(s) are relative to the cultures and times in which they are recorded.

And each time someone with charisma or power comes along and forms new beliefs and gains followers, a new schism is formed in the religious order. YLC vs YEC for example. ID is another new religious movement bacause it presumes a creator by default. This is why Science must be divorced from any form of religion and atheism to remain an objective tool of human inquiry.

Also it is really important to respect all faiths but see them all as subjective belief systems. It is arrogance and hubris that are the problems rather than faith itself. Might I be wrong in my world view? Of course!!!!! And it is precisely this self understanding that keeps me examining all forms of faith and empirical reasoning.

I find it very interesting to compare Bill’s and Sean’s basis of faith for example. Both of them are highly intelligent, literate and wise – yet quite different in approach. But both are steeped in Adventism that is certain. And that is not a bad thing just an observation of two strong minded individuals who are approaching built in belief from different angles. Compare that to Ervin Taylor and Elaine Nelson, both highly intelligent, who see faith from an anthropological viewpoint. Compare that to Ted Wilson who uses political means to try to maintain arch conservatism.

In the evolution of a religion these disparate positions will arise and usually result in a schism and new iterations of the sect. This is predictable and inevitable because power will find a way to lead or control. Interesting stuff.


Recent Comments by george

The Creator of Time
Hello Sean

In fairness to you and your readers I feel like we are being redundant on many points and issues. I need to be respectful that this is an Adventist forum that believes and supports YEC not a platform for my agnosticism.

I do appreciate and thank you for the opportunity to lively debate issues.

Respectfully


The Creator of Time
To Sean

“ A hypothesis about the supernatural world cannot be tested, so it is not scientific. The concept of God, Allah, or other supernatural designer(s), capable of designing the whole Universe, can neither be proved nor disproved. Hence, any claims that any supernatural being or force cause some event is not able to be scientifically validated (however, whether that event really occurred can be scientifically investigated).”

And back to you


The Creator of Time
To Sean

“Remember also that the assumption that future discoveries will one day be able to explain everything via mindless naturalistic mechanisms is not science, but a philosophy of naturalism that is very similar to a blind faith religion.”

How does this compare to the assumption that the Bible will be able to predict the end of the world? Scientific in your estimation or perhaps I really don’t understand how science versus religion works


The Creator of Time
Hello Sean

“I began my investigation with genetic evolution since that is my own personal field of expertise. ”

So have you published papers in scientific peer reviewed journals in this regard? Have you done experiments in this regard? Have you published statistical analysis to demonstrate your theory that macro evolution is mathematically possible?

You are always stating that others have to proof you wrong? Really? If you we’re trying to prove Newton or Einstein wrong would you not have to do so before your scientific peers?

Come on now, as you like to say, do you really scientically think all the biodiversity we witness today cane off a floating Ark some 4000 years ago! Is that really a scientific proposition that is provable or just some just so story?

You see I get the design argument but miracles, prophets, Santa Claus, fairies, ghosts, goblins, arks and the like are not proper subjects for science in my opinion. This is why you are seeing religions, including the progressive side of Adventistism moving more towards acceptance of science as reality, because they understand the modern educated mind will reject them if the stories are too fanciful or don’t make sense.

You see I don’t mind you calling ideas of the meta verse just so stories or not currently scientific as being non falsifiable. You have a point there. I don’t mind you advancing design arguments, especially as it relates to the fine tuned mechanisms of physics and organic life. You have good points there. But please, try to objectively use use that same scientific circumspection to the fantastic claims of the Bible and EGW prophecies or even the age of life on earth. Then perhaps I’ll see a bit of rational sense to your overall position.

Cheers


The Creator of Time
Hi Sean

Your real problem of credibility is your double standard of proof. Put your biblical stories of reality to the same degree of circumspection as you put evolution. To really conclude that all the bio diversity that we see in the world today- apart from that that survived in the water- came off an Ark is probably the most unscientific fantastic claim that even all children see as allegory. There is a reason this is not taught as the source of biodiversity in schools Sean. Yet you as a scientist believe it and think it has an evidentiary basis.

Your arguments on design make much more sense because it is certainly arguable that there is a design to the universe based on the anthropiic principle. It is certainly arguable that a designer like God could have designed a universe like ours but also a designerlike God could have designed a cause and effect evolving universe as well. Like Deism I think ID is worthwhile exploring. But I also think science continues to demonstrate mindless cause and effect mechanisms that don’t require design.

You and Behe are focused on irreducible complexity as an underpinning for design – which for you then becomes the stepping stone to biblical creation. Your methodology is apparent to get ‘educated’ minds to buy into a biblically designer God.

You see I don’t mind admitting that there is still much to do when it comes to understanding how physics and biology work. The best minds in the world continue to work, theorize and experiment in these areas. But you dismiss these efforts with a wave of your hand because they fall outside the biblical narrative so they can’t be true. And it is THAT factor Sean that utterly shatters the rational credibilty of
of creation science as an objective endeavour. The boys at the Discovery Institute understood this and have tried to broaden their approach. Deists understood this as well to get away from cultural myth and move towards a more observational basis for understanding the universe. But sadly Sean l, I think you are so entrenched in your biblical paradigm that you cannot see how your double standard of scientific inquiry harms your credibilty as an objective scientist. If I was to cross examine you in a Court of Law I would have a field day on pointing this discrepancy. And believe me, having cross examined many medical experts in forensic matters I do speak from professional experience.

Yes I know I am stating the obvious as many of your fellow ‘progressive’ Adventist colleagues have stayed before, no doubt to no avail. But, without being smug, just as you have encouraged me to look for God, I encourage you to look very deeply within yourself and look for humbly for rational contradiction. Objective humility is the real start to seeking truth.

Cheers