Back to the single book example. My argument for entropy …

Comment on Dr. John Sanford Lectures on Inevitable Genomic Deterioration by BobRyan.

Back to the single book example. My argument for entropy is at the level of physics – the fact that the medium of storage decays over time as it moves toward equilibrium.

The consequence of that physical fact is damage/loss of the information stored, transmitted, read-from that physical form.

BobRyan:: When we talk about entropy – we are discussing the physical characteristics of the medium for storage, transmission and translation itself.

Sanford addressed the physics of that degradation of information at the biochemical level as follows in the video

16:36 – mutations – errors in DNA code.. molecular mistakes

17:00 – genetic “ mutations are literally a product of physical entropy in the way that a physicist or chemist would speak of it”.

Ron your response ignores the physical entropy problem in the storage of a single book or in the case of a single chromosome. You are dealing with the propagation of species and “whole subjects” (in the case of books) over time regardless of the physical state of individual cases.

Ron:

Yes, I agree. And if you consider the analogy I gave regarding the information contained in the book, you will see that there is also, something resembling entropy in that over the years much information re: the book is lost, while other information persists, or is changed. There is a sifting process with some information lost, some saved.

Since you are no longer talking about the individual book – but about how it goes through revision or is transferred to a different physical medium by intelligent creators – we are no longer in the realm of any form of entropy. It is more a study of knowledge base over time. However that is confined to intelligent beings as the substrate. It is a guided, directed process with a goal in mind – set by the creators, innovators themselves.

Ron:

To draw an analogy between the publishing and biologic realms, the destruction of the book would be analogous to loss of the intermediary species.

That “loss of species” idea would be analogous to the loss of all extant copies of that book and the end of all efforts to reproduce the book – not just the subject of a single book undergoing the physics of decay (progress toward physical equilibrium with the surroundings).

Ron:
The hand written version would be the common ancestor which no longer exists due to entropy, so now we only have a published print version (great apes?) and an electronic version (Humanoids?).

You do not have the same information in great apes as you have in Humans.

Hand written vs electronic versions of the book is merely the same information stored and transmitted through a different physical medium.

It would be like a 2D video ape – vs a 3D video of that ape if you are only looking at one single trait of the ape (appearance) – that can be manifest in multiple physical forms. It is still ape – but the form used to represent it – changes.

Evolution would need to take the subject of the book (cosmology) and then posit advancements in knowledge as “Change over time”.

However the ability of creators to advance their own knowledge base has I.D. at every step — no random words being added to the text to advance knowledge of Cosmology over time. No sorting through random additions of words to the text and then “selecting” out the best fit set of random words to later “amplify”.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan Also Commented

Dr. John Sanford Lectures on Inevitable Genomic Deterioration
@Ron:

I used to think that before I started visiting Spectrum.

They have convinced me otherwise.

in Christ,

Bob


Dr. John Sanford Lectures on Inevitable Genomic Deterioration
@Ron:

My posts here of late seem to be getting lost in cyberspace – so not sure this one will make it. But in case it does — I would note that our friend Patterson commented on this statement years later – affirming the point “again”.

How is it that when disconfirming summations arise within the evolutionist’s own camp they keep insisting that those summations are “no longer true” unless repeated each year?

faith?

in Christ,

Bob


Dr. John Sanford Lectures on Inevitable Genomic Deterioration

Sean Pitman: This is always the fall-back argument for neo-Darwinists. You all know that the fossil record represents hundreds of millions of years of the evolution of life on this planet. Therefore, any genetic challenge to your interpretation of the fossil record must, by default, be wrong. You may not have any idea how or why the genetic evidence must be wrong, but you are absolutely sure that it is wrong because you know your view of the fossil record is correct.

hmmm – where have we seen that before???

Oh wait I know! Atheist evolutionists themselves have said this about their own practices and methods.

Collin Patterson – Paleontologist British Museum of Natural history speaking at the American Museum of Natural History in 1981 – said:

Patterson – quotes Gillespie’s arguing that Christians
“‘…holding creationist ideas could plead ignorance of the means and affirm only the fact,'”

Patterson countered, “That seems to summarize the feeling I get in talking to evolutionists today. They plead ignorance of the means of transformation, but affirm only the fact: ‘Yes it has…we know it has taken place.'”

“…Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you’ve experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that’s true of me, and I think it’s true of a good many of you in here…

“…,Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to convey anti-knowledge , apparent knowledge which is actually harmful to systematics…”

in Christ,

Bob


Recent Comments by BobRyan

Academic Freedom Strikes Again!

george:
By definition, I don’t believe in miracles or apocryphal, anthropomorphic stories about same.Why aren’t scientists observing them today if they occur?

Circular argument. If they were naturally occurring we would expect scientists to see that they are still occurring today. If they are singular events caused by an intelligent being – that being would be under no obligation to “keep causing world wide floods” as if “to do it once you must continually do it”. Armstrong went to the moon.. shall we argue that unless he keeps going to the moon so each new generation can see it … then it did not happen?

Your argument is of the form “all eye witness evidence to some event in the past is no evidence at all unless that event keeps repeating itself so we too can witness it”. Seems less than compelling.

“Could it be that science is better able to detect hoaxes and false claims?” As a rule for dismissing every eye witness account in the past – it is less than compelling. (even when that event cannot be repeated)

Evolutionists “claim” that dust, rocks and gas (in sufficient quantity and over sufficient time and a lot of luck) self organized into rabbits via prokaryote-then-eukaryote-then-more-complexity. But such self-organization cannot be “observed” today.

(What is worse – such a sequence cannot even be intelligently manipulated to occur in the lab)

By your own argument then you should not believe in evolution.


Academic Freedom Strikes Again!
@Sean Pitman:

Suppose you were at a crime scene … there is a tree limb on the ground and a bullet hole in the victim — “all natural causes”? or is one ‘not natural’? Those who say that nothing can be detected as “not naturally occurring in nature” – because all results, all observations make it appear that every result “naturally occurred without intelligent design” seem to be missing a very big part of “the obvious”.


Academic Freedom Strikes Again!

george:
Gentlemen,

What just God would allow an innocent child to be born guilty for the sins of a distant ancestor? …What if there was only One Commandment? Do Good. ‘Kant’ see a problem with that.

An atheist point of view is not often found here – but this is interesting.

1. God does not punish babies for what someone else did – but I suppose that is a reductionist option that is not so uncommon among atheists. The “details” of the subject you are commenting on – yet according to you “not reading” – is that humans are born with sinful natures. A “bent” toward evil. That is the first gap right out of the gate between atheism and God’s Word..

2. But still God supernaturally enables “free will” even in that bent scenario, the one that mankind lives in – ever since the free-will choice of the first humans on planet earth – was to cast their lot in with Satan and rebellion..(apparently they wanted to see what a wonderful result that poor choice would create). John 16 “the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment”. And of course “I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32. (not “just Christians”). Thus supernatural agency promotes free will in a world that would otherwise be unrestrained in its bent to evil.

3.God says “The wages of sin is death” — so then your “complaint” is essentially “that you exist”. A just and loving God created planet Earth – no death or disease or suffering – a perfect paradise where mankind could live forever … and only one tiny restriction… yet Adam and Eve allowed themselves to be duped by Satan… tossing it all away. The “Just God” scenario could easily just have let them suffer the death sentence they chose. He did not do that… hence “you exist” – to then “complain about it”.

4. Of course you might also complain that Satan exists – and Satan might complain that “you exist”. There is no shortage on planet earth of avenues for complaint. But God steps in – offers salvation to mankind at infinite cost to himself – – and the “Few” of Matthew 7 eventually end up accepting that offer of eternal life. The rest seem to prefer the lake of fire option… sort of like Adam and Eve choosing disease and death over eternal life (without fully appreciating the massive fail in that short-sighted choice).

In any case – this thread is about the logic/reason that should be taken into account when a Christian owned and operated institution chooses to stay faithful to its Christian mission — rather then getting blown about by every wind of doctrine. Why let the alchemy of “wild guessing” be the ‘source of truth’ when we have the Bible?? We really have no excuse for that. As for science – we can be thankful that it has come as far along as it has – but no matter how far back you rewind the clock of our science history – we should always have chosen the Bible over wild guessing.


Newly Discovered Human Footprints Undermine Evolutionary Assumptions

Ervin Taylor:
Perhaps Dr. Pitman would enlighten his readers what on earth “the neo-Darwinian story of origins” might be. Darwin did not address origins.

Origins of what?? the first eukaryote??
Or “origins of mankind”??

Darwin himself claimed that his own false doctrine on origins was totally incompatible with Genesis and that because of this – Genesis must be tossed under a bus.

hint: Genesis is an account of “Origins” as we all know — even though “bacteria” and “amoeba” are terms that don’t show up in the text.

The point remains – Darwin was promoting his own religion on origins totally counter to the Bible doctrine on origins. He himself addresses this point of the two views.


Newly Discovered Human Footprints Undermine Evolutionary Assumptions

Ervin Taylor:
Here we go again.If the footprints upon close examination, are determined not to be from a hominim/hominid, I wonder if Educate Truth (sic) will announce that determination.Or if the date of the surface is determined to be much younger, will there be a notice placed on fundamentalist web-sites.If you believe the answer to these questions are yes, I have a big bridge that I would like to sell you for pennies on the dollar.

Here we go again … hope piled upon hope…no matter the “observations in nature” that disconfirm the classic evolutionary hypothesis

Reminds me of “What we still don’t know” by Martin Reese and Leonard Suskind