Sean Pitman: What is able to remove the detrimental mutations from …

Comment on Dr. John Sanford Lectures on Inevitable Genomic Deterioration by Ron.

Sean Pitman: What is able to remove the detrimental mutations from the gene pool as fast or faster than they are entering it?

Ok, here is one, just a stab in the dark off the top of my head. How about a second mutation which returns the base pair back to it’s original form. I haven’t researched this, but I would imagine that the odds would be about equal since it is the same process going in both directions. But of course it is unlikely anyone would notice, because it would return to the norm.

Again, I am not a molecular biologist and I don’t know the details, but my son tells me there is a system to check for, and correct transcription errors.

And there is always natural selection which will increase the prevalence of the best gene in the population.

Ron Also Commented

Dr. John Sanford Lectures on Inevitable Genomic Deterioration
@Sean Pitman:
Sean, The problem with this assertion is that there is no way to know if the prophecy is being properly interpreted, or even that it isn’t a lie as the prophet who was killed by the lion found out, until the prophecy is fulfilled. A good example is the second coming of Christ. The church has been predicting his soon return for 2000 years now. While the prophecy, at least for believers, is no doubt true, it is totally unhelpful in any meaningful predictive way.


Dr. John Sanford Lectures on Inevitable Genomic Deterioration
@Sean Pitman:
Thanks for the link to this post from the other thread, I had indeed missed this post. (I just hope I can find the one that had the link again.)
And I freely admit to being a little dense and methodical, so I appreciate your patience.

I notice that Mendelson’s work was not published until 1866, and was pretty much ignored until it was rediscovered in 1900. Whereas Darwin’s book was published in 1859. I agree that the finches beaks, if not strictly Mendelian, then at least they are the result of multigenetic variations which does not add anything new to the genetic library.

Darwin however, did not have access to Mendelson’s work when he wrote, and Darwin obviously considered the finches beaks to be an example of evolution, so why do you exclude Mendelian genetics from Darwinian evolution? I would think that you would have to include Mendelian variations as one of many mechanisms that accounts for Darwinian evolution. I know, it doesn’t add any new genetic ability, and it doesn’t account for “amoeba to horse evolution”, but it at least accounts for the finches beaks. It just seems more logical than to deny evolution altogether as Bob and Bill do, it would be better, to say, yes of course there is evolution. It just can’t replace God. (I think you actually do say that. I think it is Bob, Faith, and Hope and Bill who are still giving mixed messages about whether evolution has a place.)

I am not sure exactly when 2SM was written, but probably before 1900. So presumably when Mrs. White said that “theistic evolution” was the worst infidelity, she had in mind all forms of evolution which would have included any form of evolution attributed to Mendelian genetics as well, since she was referencing Darwin’s theory, and Darwin’s theory was based primarily on Mendelian variation. Why is it that people who otherwise are quite literal in their interpretations, suddenly exclude Mendelian inheritance from Mrs. White’s statement?

To draw from Bob’s reasoning that 6 days have to be literal because the author considered them to be literal. By the same reasoning Mrs. Whites statement about evolution would have to include Mendelian genetics as infidelity because Mendelian genetics are the cause of the kind of evolution Mrs. White was talking about, i.e. Darwin’s finches.

One of the main arguments between creationists and evolutionists is over the fixedness of species. At least in the mid 1800’s creationists and evolutionists both thought that if the fixedness of species were abandoned or proved false, that it would falsify Genesis and prove God was excluded from the process. I think that is and was a false dichotomy. I think that Mrs. White’s statements about amalgamation, (yes, it referred to interbreeding of son’s of Seth with the daughters of Cain, but it also references animals) proves that Mrs. White did not believe in the fixedness of species, thereby validating the idea that fixedness of species is not determinative as to whether or not God was the creator.

So, if Mrs. White wasn’t concerned about the fixedness of species, then what difference does it make by what mechanisms species are not fixed? As you noted in your article about the donkeys and horses it is very difficult to define a distinct boundary. So why try? I don’t think it really makes any difference to the question of creation. Obviously God could have created all the species capable of interbreeding as well as he could have created all species incapable of any interbreeding at all, or any combination he wants.

Is it really so vile to accept that Darwin saw what he saw and agreeing with the fact of evolution without buying into the argument that the existence of evolution somehow disproves creation?

Just for the sake of argument, if it could somehow in the future be proved that there are biological systems not yet discovered that would allow organisms to reach your somewhat arbitrary 1000aa level of specificity, would that prove that God didn’t create the whole kit and caboodle 6000 years ago? I don’t think so. Would you really give up belief in God if that threshold were somehow reached?


Dr. John Sanford Lectures on Inevitable Genomic Deterioration
@Sean Pitman: “If you understand the mechanisms so well, please do explain them to me.”

Your current argument is based on statistical arguments. I am not enough of a mathematician to comment on your current discussion. So I won’t.

I do see evolution happening in many places by many mechanisms. I can list a few, but before I do, let me ask you, what is your definition of evolution. I keep offering examples looking for some common ground from which to start a discussion. If you don’t accept the examples that Darwin himself used, like the finches, then it seems to me that you must be talking about something other than Darwinian evolution.

1. The HIV virus evolves through a sloppy reverse transcriptase that has an extremely high rate of error. Again, without trying to get into your argument, to a non-mathematician this seems like an example that would disprove Dr. Sanford’s theory, since HIV’s mutation rate is exceedingly high, and so far we see no sign of a genetic meltdown.

2. Antibodies in the blood are created by the generation of random segments on the variable chain, then the thymus exerts a selective pressure by killing all the lymphocytes that produce antibodies that happen to match the HLA antigens.

3. Large mammals of different species can pass genes between species through hybrids. For example the horse and the donkey. They have a common hybrid in the mule. Generally mules are sterile, but occasionally one is fertile. When a Mule is fertile, then it can randomly pass whole chromosomes between species just like any other pairing within a species.

4. Ideas in my shop evolve through a process of intelligent design. (At least I hope there is some intelligence.) I come up with a solution to a problem, I build something that I think will work, and as I am in the process of building it, I often get ideas about how to make it better, so over time, it continues to evolve to be more functional and higher quality.

5. Nylonase Gene, I’m not sure, I think the bacteria copied and combined nonfunctional gene fragments.

6. Sickle Cell trait. It was a single base transcription error. I think there are lots of mechanisms that can do such a thing. I don’t know if we know which one was the actual one. Maybe ionizing radiation?

7. Cars and other transportation devices evolve through a process of intelligent design responding to the selection pressures of the market.

8. The shape of the tree out front evolves each year based on selective growth as each leaf tries to optimize it’s sun exposure. Limbs that get more sun grow better.

9. I heard on the radio today that violent men tend to have higher testosterone levels, and tend to father a higher ratio of males to females, so that creates a selection bias in favor of violent men. I have no idea how accurate the statement is, but it is an example of how pervasive evolutionary principles are.

10. Relative HIV resistance in humans is conferred on Europeans, compared to Africans, by an increased prevalence of the CCR5 allele which most likely entered the Northern population through a plague, probably viral.

11. I read recently that there have been identified 38 specific mutations in the Tibetan population that has occurred in the last 3000 years that has allowed their population to escape pressure from the Han Chinese by moving to higher altitudes. I don’t know the mechanisms. But, are you denying that this is evolution?

12. At one point, humans had the same number of Chromosomes as the chimps, but two of the chromosomes combined into one chromosome, so now Humans have one less chromosome than chimps do. How do you fit that fact into the Biblical narrative? Do you think that the chromosome combination took place some time after creation? I have a hard time imagining God creating us originally with a chromosome with double centrameres and telemeres.

I would note however that the presence of evolution does not necessarily imply an improvement. Let’s go back to Darwin’s finches. We could imagine an island that had both finches and gross beaks on it at the start. Then some catastrophe destroys all of the gross beaks. Those finches who have larger bills may be more successful at taking advantage of the new ecological niche that opened up, so the finch population evolves toward larger beaks. But that doesn’t mean that the finches are better than the gross beaks were. This would be an example of “devolution” on the larger, island scale, with positive evolution on the smaller, finch, scale. I suspect we will see more and more of this kind of evolution as we kill off more and more of our highly specialized species.


Recent Comments by Ron

Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation

Sean Pitman: No one is demanding that they “get out of the church”. . . . . anti-Adventist views on such a fundamental level.

You don’t see how characterizing a dedicated believer’s understanding of truth as “fundamentally anti-Adventist” would drive them out of the church?

I guess that explains why you don’t see that what you are doing here is fundamentally wrong.


Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation

Professor Kent: Nothing saddens me more than the droves who leave the Church when they learn that many of their cherished beliefs regarding this evidence don’t hold up so well to scrutiny.

I agree. I am sure that Sean and Bob don’t mean to undermine faith in God, but every time they say that it is impossible to believe in God and in science at the same time, I feel like they are telling me that any rational person must give up their belief in God, because belief in God and rationality can’t exist in the same space. Who would want to belong to that kind of a church?


Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation

Sean Pitman: and have little if anything to do with the main point of their prophetic claims

And by analogy, this appears to be a weak point in the creation argument. Who is to decide what the main point is?

It seems entirely possible that in trying to make Gen. 1 too literal, that we are missing the whole point of the story.


Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation
Regarding falsifying the existence of God through the miraculous:

While it is true that one can’t falsify the existance of God and the Biblical miracles at a philosophical level, it seems to me that it is possible to falsify it at a practical level. For instance prayer for healing. How many families who pray for a miracle for a loved one in the Intensive Care Unit receive a miracle?

While the answer to that question doesn’t answer the question of the existence of God at a philosophical level, it does answer the question at a practical level. After 36 years of medical practice I can say definitively that at a practical level when it comes to miracles in the ICU, God does not exist. Even if a miracle happens latter today, it wouldn’t be enough to establish an expectation for the future. So at a practicle level it seems it is possible level to falsify the existence od God, or at least prove His nonintervention which seems to me to be pretty much the same thing at a functional level.


Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation
@Sean Pitman:
Sean, what is your definition of “Neo-darwinism” as opposed to “Darwinism” as opposed to “evolution”?