Hi Bob, The topic is Creeds and Fundamental beliefs, my question …

Comment on Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs by Ranald McLeish.

Hi Bob,

The topic is Creeds and Fundamental beliefs, my question and response has been with that in mind.

I agree with you regarding the SS Quarterlies, however they do not claim to represent “the truth as it is in Jesus.” As far as I am aware, only the book Adventists Believe, makes that claim. Thus the question does that make it creedal, especially when people are judged by it as opposed to the Bible?

Ranald McLeish Also Commented

Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Hi Bob,

You said, “But you pulled references from the little horn of Daniel 8 to make your complaint and in so doing you lost the specificity of the Daniel 7 timeline. There is no way to see Daniel 7 in every point read from Daniel 8 without deleting the added detail that we find in Daniel 8.”

Where did I ever say that? Please do me justice and quote me correctly.

Bob you also said, ” Daniel 8 does not address the length of time that the little horn rules. The little horn of Daniel 8 arises after the division of Greece.”

I believe you are correct, if you see two little horns in Dan. 7 and 8. So please tell me, how do you fit your understanding with the statement from FB, that is considered by Adventists to be the truth … in Jesus?

I am assuming from what you have said that you and Bill agree the LH of 7:8 is “another horn” that represents another power, a new power, the Papacy, that arose in the midst of the 10 horn kingdoms, and ruled for 1260 years, 7:25.


Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Re the topic.

Will someone be brave enough to define exactly what “THE TRUTH AS IT IS IN JESUS” means to Adventists? It appears that unless we have a clear understanding as to what this phrase means to Adventists, when used by Adventists, we will not understand the difference between Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs.

For example, does THE TRUTH AS IT IS IN JESUS, change?


Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Hi Bob, and c.lee.

Your Question was largely answered in my response to C. Lee. However as that post has disappeared I will respond again.

I believe “the truth as it is in Jesus” is only found in one book, the Bible.

I believe the church needs to have a statement of beliefs, I have no problem with that. The problem is when a church’s statement of beliefs, is made equal to, or above the Bible, that is when the beliefs become a Creed.

It appears Educate truth is not happy to leave the final say with the Bible, cf. “James Londis, Don’t Change Our Belief on Creation, the Words of Scripture Suffice, OCTOBER 4, 2011. cf. the disclaimer, Educate Truth does not share the opinion of this author.”

You see Bob, I am quite happy for Educate Truth to have an opinion that incorporates the Bible +, as long as I can believe differently, cf. Matt 13:25-30.

Do you honestly believe that a few chosen men, given less than a week, could put together 27 statements of belief that would never have to be changed?

Re your question, “Can you in all good conscience support and teach the 27 Fundamental Beliefs” –

First of all let me be very clear, In general the 28 are very good statements, When it comes to the interpretation of the voted statements, the answer “in all good faith” has to be no. Because it is clear some teachings in that book are certainly contrary to to the Scriptures. Furthermore as it is clear that teachings contrary to these beliefs are presented to our people through the official publications of the church, It is clear various departments of the Church feel that they are not strictly bound by some of these specific beliefs today.

In the SOP writings there are 45 hits for the phrase, “The Bible and the Bible only.”
It was good enough for the Reformers, to see the light, it was good enough for the Pioneers to see the light, and I believe it is the light for me to walk in today.

Trusting that answers your questions,
Your brother in Christ,