Hi Bob, and c.lee. Your Question was largely answered in my …

Comment on Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs by Ranald McLeish.

Hi Bob, and c.lee.

Your Question was largely answered in my response to C. Lee. However as that post has disappeared I will respond again.

I believe “the truth as it is in Jesus” is only found in one book, the Bible.

I believe the church needs to have a statement of beliefs, I have no problem with that. The problem is when a church’s statement of beliefs, is made equal to, or above the Bible, that is when the beliefs become a Creed.

It appears Educate truth is not happy to leave the final say with the Bible, cf. “James Londis, Don’t Change Our Belief on Creation, the Words of Scripture Suffice, OCTOBER 4, 2011. cf. the disclaimer, Educate Truth does not share the opinion of this author.”

You see Bob, I am quite happy for Educate Truth to have an opinion that incorporates the Bible +, as long as I can believe differently, cf. Matt 13:25-30.

Do you honestly believe that a few chosen men, given less than a week, could put together 27 statements of belief that would never have to be changed?

Re your question, “Can you in all good conscience support and teach the 27 Fundamental Beliefs” –

First of all let me be very clear, In general the 28 are very good statements, When it comes to the interpretation of the voted statements, the answer “in all good faith” has to be no. Because it is clear some teachings in that book are certainly contrary to to the Scriptures. Furthermore as it is clear that teachings contrary to these beliefs are presented to our people through the official publications of the church, It is clear various departments of the Church feel that they are not strictly bound by some of these specific beliefs today.

In the SOP writings there are 45 hits for the phrase, “The Bible and the Bible only.”
It was good enough for the Reformers, to see the light, it was good enough for the Pioneers to see the light, and I believe it is the light for me to walk in today.

Trusting that answers your questions,
Your brother in Christ,

Ranald McLeish Also Commented

Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Hi Bob,

You said, “But you pulled references from the little horn of Daniel 8 to make your complaint and in so doing you lost the specificity of the Daniel 7 timeline. There is no way to see Daniel 7 in every point read from Daniel 8 without deleting the added detail that we find in Daniel 8.”

Where did I ever say that? Please do me justice and quote me correctly.

Bob you also said, ” Daniel 8 does not address the length of time that the little horn rules. The little horn of Daniel 8 arises after the division of Greece.”

I believe you are correct, if you see two little horns in Dan. 7 and 8. So please tell me, how do you fit your understanding with the statement from FB, that is considered by Adventists to be the truth … in Jesus?

I am assuming from what you have said that you and Bill agree the LH of 7:8 is “another horn” that represents another power, a new power, the Papacy, that arose in the midst of the 10 horn kingdoms, and ruled for 1260 years, 7:25.


Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Hi Bill,

You said, “The little horn represents pagan Rome, Dan. 8:9 and “another little horn” represents Papal Rome. Dan. 7:8.

So the time element would include both pagan and papal Rome. But as SDA’s we are more interested in “another little horn” which is from 538 AD to 1798 AD. The Papacy.

Bill I am glad you see the word “another” in Daniel, means Just that. So I am presuming you see two little horns in Daniel 7 and 8, The LH of 7:8 representing the Papacy, and the LH of 8:9 representing Rome.

My question to you is this, As you see the 1260 years of 7;25 apply to the Papacy, which time element applies to both Rome and the Papacy? i.e. how long does Rome rule for? Or as FB puts it how long does” Rome pagan and papal” rule?


Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Hi Bob,

You correctly stated “1. Your quote is from the text explanation of the 27 FB found in the book 27 Fundamental beliefs – and not from the actual belief statement itself.”

You also stated, “First of all – I have not seen you point to any place where the 27 FB differs from the voted doctrines of the Church or the Bible.”

I quoted from FB, “While this volume is not an officially voted statement — it may be viewed as representative of “the truth . . . in Jesus (Eph. 4:21) that Seventh-day Adventists around the globe cherish and proclaim. Seventh-day Adventists Believe — 27, p. iv.”

Now Bob, and anyone else, especially Educate Truth, the question is simple:

How long does the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 rule? Bible answer please. This is not a “straw man” question.

Am I right in assuming FB 27 was written to present the Adventist understanding of the little horn among other things. Now if it, FB, presents the “the truth . . . in Jesus (Eph. 4:21) that Seventh-day Adventists around the globe cherish and proclaim,” surely someone can answer this simple question!!