Comment on Biblical Interpretation and Credibility by Sean Pitman.
You insist that we can rely on our reason and empirical evidence to judge the validity of God’s word, but we do so at the same peril that befell Eve and Adam. Satan exploited their reliance on reason and empirical evidence; after all, he (the speaking serpent) had eaten the forbidden fruit, could talk, appeared to be wise, and didn’t die. The test Adam and Eve failed was a very simple one: Could God’s word be trusted?
You make it sound as if the Serpent was the one who provided all the empirical evidence to Adam and Eve while God simply expected Adam and Eve to obey His naked word alone without offering any empirical evidence of His own for who He was and why his His word should be trusted and obeyed. Your picture is the reverse of the reality described in the Bible and in the writings of Mrs. White.
It was God, not the Serpent, who offered the superior evidence to Adam and Eve regarding His own identity as their Creator, His personal interest and love for them, and the trustworthiness of His Word. God had provided abundant evidence, far beyond what the Serpent provided, to back up His claims.
It was not, therefore, due to a lack of the clear weight of solid evidence in God’s favor that Adam and Eve fell. They fell because they were tempted by their own selfish desires to do that which they clearly knew was wrong. Their emotions clouded their judgment and they rebelled against the Truth that they knew to be true.
God is not arbitrary. He does not expect blind obedience without first providing abundant evidence regarding the right path to take. It is only when we reject that which we know or could have known to be true, that we deliberately rebel against God and break off our relationship with Him.
After all, anyone can claim to be God. Many different individuals have made this claim. Many different authors have made the claim to have written the very words of God. Rational people cannot be expected to simply accept such claims at face value. Such blind-faith acceptance of face-value claims to Divine authority will result in most people following the wrong voice.
God does not desire this of us – blind obedience to face value claims without any empirical basis for belief. He wants us to make an intelligent decision for Him that is based on a rational understanding of the evidence that He has provided to us for His existence, character, and love for us… evidence that is calculated to appeal to the rational candid minds that He himself made for us and expects us to use.
Is there a leap of faith involved? Sure, as is the case for any rational belief in anything. Even scientific conclusions require a leap of faith to one degree or another.
This isn’t a “faith or evidence” situation. It’s a faith and evidence situation. Faith is not rational without the backing of evidence and evidence is powerless when it comes to deriving useful conclusions without a leap of faith.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Sean Pitman Also Commented
Biblical Interpretation and Credibility
To All,
Please keep your comments relevant to the topic of this thread and this website. There are many hot potato issues within the Adventist Church. Other topics that are not directly related to the limited scope of this website will most likely not be posted or will be deleted. You are welcome to carry on such conversations privately via the chat group that is provided by this website.
Thank you.
Educate Truth Staff
Biblical Interpretation and Credibility
@Bill Sorensen:
Everything anyone does outside of Christ is sin. Even honest mistakes made by the angels of heaven are “forgiven†by virtue of their relationship with Christ.
Yes, it could be called “sin†in a comprehensive and generic application. In the bible “sin†has many aspects and defined in application in many ways.
Don’t you think that Jesus may have accidentally stepped on someone’s foot, or accidentally bumped into someone, while on this Earth while subject to limited knowledge as we are subject? Did Jesus “sin” when making such honest mistakes?
Your problem is that you define “sin” as any and all mistakes – even an angel accidentally stepping on his friend’s foot would be sinful or evil according to you. And, it seems, as if such “sins” will continue on for eternity in Heaven due to a lack of perfect knowledge.
What then makes the sin of eating the forbidden fruit so different? Adam and Eve were created “in Christ”, just as unfallen angels are. Why then did their sin cause them to be removed from their garden home and place them in the need of the sacrificial suffering and death of Jesus on the cross? Why wouldn’t an angel accidentally stepping on his friend’s foot require the same actions on the part of God?
What you don’t seem to understand is that there are different types of mistakes or “sins” if you want to call them all by the same word. Certain mistakes are not sins against one’s conscience and are therefore not moral wrongs and do not lead to a lost relationship with God – i.e., they do not lead to death.
The difference between accidental mistakes and deliberate sins against one’s neighbor is that accidents are not sins against one’s conscience; against God. Therefore, they do not lead to a loss of one’s relationship with God. Deliberate sins against one’s neighbor, on the other hand, do lead to a loss of relationship with both one’s neighbor and with God.
It is for this reason that sins against one’s conscience are in a whole different class altogether from truly honest accidental mistakes. The conscience is what defines the morality of an individual – what defines true obedience and/or rebellion against God or “sin” – i.e., true iniquity.
You know, at this point I’m not sure if there is anything further I can share with you on this topic that will help you see the difference between honest mistakes and true moral sins? I think you’ve made your position look pretty silly by now. I don’t think very many people are going to find it very difficult to see the difference between accidentally stepping on someone’s foot vs. what Adam and Eve did in eating the forbidden fruit.
For these reasons, comments regarding the supposed moral standing or “sinfulness” of those who hold to opposing doctrinal perspectives from me or you or anyone else contributing to comments in this forum will not be posted. While we disagree with what certain staff members have done and are doing at LSU, and think that these individuals should either resign or be removed from their positions as paid representatives of the Adventist Church within our schools, we do not judge their moral standing before God.
There will be no further discussion along these lines.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Biblical Interpretation and Credibility
@Bill Sorensen:
Even your angel in heaven illustration will not support the idea that Gabriel is innocent and/or not guilty. It just means forgiveness is a natural result of ignorance. It is a spiritual faux pau. Not unlike a simular incident in this world where you might bump into someone by accident and say, “Oh, excuse me, I didn’t see you there.â€
Oh, but are such errors sinful? – in the same sense that they would require the blood of Jesus for atonement? Why wouldn’t such errors be classified in the same manner with the sin of eating the forbidden fruit? – which did require the blood of Jesus for atonement?
The issue is pardon, or no pardon. Not, guilty or not guilty. People are pardoned because they are guilty, and we don’t plead innocence before God just because we didn’t know better.
You’re mistaken. People have successfully used the argument of ignorance with God many times. – Gen. 20:3-7 NIV.
Ignorance means that one has not sinned against one’s conscience. A deliberate sin against one’s own conscience, against what one knew to be right, is what demanded the blood of Jesus for atonement.
According to your view, sin will always continue in Heaven for ever and ever. As long as we are subject to imperfect knowledge, accidents will happen – even in Heaven. While we will no doubt apologize for these accidence, they will not be classified as moral “sins”.
Note that Mrs. White and the Bible both point out that moral sin will not arise a second time in God’s universe.
Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: “Affliction shall not rise up the second time.” Nahum 1:9.
EGW, GC, p. 504
This situation would be impossible given your view of sin and your misunderstanding as to what makes sin so evil.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
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