Comment on A big reason why so many people are leaving the church by Sean Pitman.
David Read,
You wrote:
Sean seems to be at war with the idea of faith, which is believing something that one cannot possibly know or prove.
What I’m against is not the idea of taking a leap of faith beyond that which can be absolutely known or proven. After all, this is what science itself is all about. What I’m against is taking a leap of faith with regard to any particular view of the world in which we live, without any basis, whatsoever, in empirical evidence.
By faith we believe that there is an unseen world, a hidden reality that is even more important than empirical reality.
I too believe in an unseen world, a hidden reality, but not without empirical evidence for this belief or faith. Just as physicists believe in many things that can’t be directly seen, empirical reality itself points to the existence of underlying realities that cannot be directly seen.
For example, Jesus himself explained how one could determine the existence of the Holy Spirit, who cannot be directly seen, by noting the empirical effects of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit works in the empirical world – as the wind moves the leaves of the trees. – John 3:8 NIV
Admittedly, faith is a very frustrating thing; we’d all prefer to know, and not to have to exercise faith. But God asks us to exercise faith, and Jesus calls us “blessed†if we can have faith that is not based upon empirical proof. John 20:29
Faith is even more frustrating when it is completely devoid of empirical evidence of any kind. We’re not talking about absolute “proof” here. I’ve made this point so clear so many times that I’m mystified as to why you keep suggesting that I’m asking for absolute empirical proof when I’m only asking for at least some basis in empirical evidence – the weight of evidence from the individual perspective with at least the potential for falsification.
Faith is the essence of Christianity (and every other religion). Believers do not like to see faith belittled simply because it is faith, not provable fact. So it doesn’t surprise me that Sean now finds himself virtually alone in insisting upon the illegitimacy of faith.
Not even science can be performed without making leaps of “faithâ€, or “logic†if you prefer, into areas of understanding that cannot be perfectly known and are not perfectly knowable. Yet, these leaps are not uneducated or without useful predictive value which can be used to gauge the likelihood of success. While never reaching 100% perfection, educated leaps of faith or logic need not be completely blind to empirical reality if they are to be useful in what they are saying about empirical reality.
The same thing is true, or at least can be true, of religious faith. There is no need for one’s science to be independent of one’s religion. They can be, and I think should be, one in the same thing.
And, as surprising as it may sound to you, I’m not alone in my views on the science of faith – a very important and relevant topic…
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Sean Pitman Also Commented
A big reason why so many people are leaving the church
@Professor Kent:
Rejection of the Seventh-day Sabbath because of a rejection of the clear reading of the Genesis account of origins is a rejection of the nature of inspiration of the Bible that Mrs. White (and the SDA Church) was trying to promote. Such a rejection completely changes the picture of God in one’s mind and the nature of the Bible as well as the Bible’s power to change one’s life and one’s world perspective. The Bible means something very different if it is viewed as a allegory vs. if it is viewed as literally true on those topics where the author(s) clearly intended to be taken as describing real historical events.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
A big reason why so many people are leaving the church
@Professor Kent:
There are many different ways to “believe in the Bible” that are completely opposed to the type of belief or faith that Mrs. White was trying to promote. Many believe that the Bible is a book of good moral instruction, but has nothing of any real value to say about the physical world. Many believe that the Bible is a collection of man’s best wisdom over the centuries, but is not actually the Word of God.
What Mrs. White was talking about is that a belief in mainstream evolutionary theories destroys a belief in the Bible as the clear Word of God on every topic it touches upon – to include the topic of origins. The evolutionary perspective undermines faith in the character of God that Ellen White understood and which the SDA Church is trying to promote. It undermines faith in the reasonableness and rationality of God – suggesting that God is willing to “command men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom.”
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
A big reason why so many people are leaving the church
@Shane Hilde:
Exactly! Not even Abraham was asked to believe in the naked word of God devoid of empirical evidence that would appeal to the rational candid mind. God was not offended when Abraham asked for this evidence because without such evidence, Abraham would truly have been insane to simply follow voices in His head claiming to be the voice of God without any external empirical confirmation…
There are false spirits out there that will lie to us. These spirits must be tested. And, the only basis upon which to employ and interpret tests is our God-given human reasoning abilities.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
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