Bravus: I know I’ve said this here before, but I …

Comment on The hinge of our faith by Shannon.

Bravus: I know I’ve said this here before, but I think it bears repeating. This approach – tying every doctrine of Seventh-day Adventism to a particular narrow, literal interpretation of Genesis (and its echoes through the rest of Scripture) – seems to me to be an approach fraught with peril for the denomination.
It is an attempt to use the ‘unthinkability defense’ – it’s unthinkable that all of SDAism is wrong, therefore, since it is all tied to creationism, creationism must be right. But it can backfire horribly: if someone is forced by the evidence to consider that perhaps God chose to create the earth and life by mechanisms other than speaking it into existence in 6 days 6000 years ago, they are then also forced – by this rhetorical strategy where creationism is described as being the single leg on which the edifice of SDA doctrine stands – to feel constrained to throw it all away.“The Church has one foundation – ’tis Jesus Christ our Lord”. If we’re going to balance the whole church on one foundation, there’s no competition: Jesus is it. A particular view on origins is not.  

Jesus is our foundation but what is the only clear way to know about Jesus that we have–the Bible. Other things are secondary but the Bible is the mainstay!

I find it interesting that the foundation is Sola Scriptura. If you throw out the Bible, then you will just be guessing at what Jesus was like. You will end up just making up what you want about your own religion. That is what a lot of others have done. If you want to do it the right way, you have to accept what you have–the Bible. Of course it is centered on Jesus but also talks about many things that give us the fullness of understanding. You can’t just pick and choose–I’d just like 6 of the 10 commandments, or do I really have to love my neighbor and the list goes on–just see Matthew 5–one of my favorite chapters from Jesus–He sets the bar pretty high. This is true also of the first parts of the Bible. You can’t just say they don’t count.

What also bothers me about all this discussion is that our God (I am assuming we all believe in a God but if you don’t believe in God bear with me for a second) was able to raise a man from the dead after 3 days and Himself as well after 3 days. We know scientifically that cells are completely decomposed at room temperature and the body would have to be remade at that level. That level of creative ability would be on the level of a God that could have made the world in 7 days at whatever stage he wanted it to look like–and he said he did it that way–in stone. You have to take it all or leave it all. Sola Scriptura. It is all about Christ–he wrote the 10 commandments with his own finger. He even says that He is the same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. How is it that we are able to separate Him from his own quotes. It would be a sin to lie and God does not lie or sin and yet he said he made the world in 6 days and rested the 7th and we are saying lets just believe in Him but not in anything He says.

How would you feel if you were the God and your people were talking like that.

Shannon Also Commented

The hinge of our faith
Ron:
I am glad you are so sincere. The Bible is quite clear on creation without need to pull in traditions of the church if you choose to see it but if not that is okay for you.

You describe a God of belief to me that you love and worship. He sounds like a big teddy bear in the sky. “Whatever you little children want down there, that’s okay with me.” That is not what the Bible describes in my reading. A lot of people pick and chose. Your God is well and good but the Bible’s God is in charge and does things His way. He as a set of rules–set in stone–for us and the universe. These were broken and cost His life to make them right again. In one of these it said the world was made in 6 days. His scientific laws are predictable as well but somehow we put these above Him–how is that? Unless we don’t believe in Him but someone else or a pushover. Read Job–to paraphrase–“who’s in charge Job? You or me (God is saying this)?” That was the question of Job and the question for us. Sounds like you want a God that is just happy with you being in charge and doing your own thing and is big enough to just let you do, say and think whatever you want.

It would be a little harder to explain if many bad things had happened to you and your world was falling apart. Where would God be? Job says that God blesses the just and unjust more that they deserve so that if there is something bad that happens, it is not a curse but the normal and we should realize how many blessings we have been under from before. Also, Job implies that God is in charge and we can question and ask but we cannot dictate policy.

I am sure that nothing I can say will change your mind. You seem sincere. I find now there is nothing further to discuss or ask as you are willing to apply negative actions to Paul and Nehemiah both of whom I believe did those things under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


The hinge of our faith
Ron: So if there were an ultimate being who wrote a book about himself as came to earth as was quoted saying about the book that the understanding of salvation was found in its pages. In addition, his followers kept an accurate record of His live and wrote it down so you could better understand the way He though, taught and lived and added it to this book. Then, I come along and decide. Do I believe what is written in these pages or not? Is part of it correct–the first part? Then I am a Jew. If all? Then I am a Christian. If none, then maybe something else. . . I could chose to believe a man that claims to achieve a higher existence through letting go and multiple cycles of live–then I am a Buddist. Or I could choose to believe an expert in nature that tells me that he has studied rocks and listened to what other people have told him about science and believes that the world came about through evolution with or without a divine aid.

In the end, you are choosing without a doubt to believe in the accuracy of human integrity and intelligence–which may be correct or not, but many times has been proven false as the humans involved needed something to show for their life’s work that made a big impact and turned out to be a hoax–we have that Achilles’ heal. The Christian religion has a God that witnessed of it’s books veracity in a of itself and of His own veracity in an of Himself. If you chose to trust Him, you are choosing to trust something more that human.

With that being said, if someone tells me the way to my house is a long straight road–don’t get tired because it is so long–here are a few markers along the way to look for. That is what all the other stuff is. If James Dobson has a good devotional or Ellen White says something in line with the Bible, it is because God has blessed them with the up building of the work. You should apply the test of the prophets to everything and everyone, “if they do not speak according to the word, it is because there is no light in them.” I think the reason you argue against “Sola Scriptura” is either because you don’t understand it or that you don’t agree with it. What “Sola Scriptura” means is that the Bible is the final rule to the other works and authors and even science. If it does not agree, it has to be thrown out or I need to start to find a new religion if I are honest with myself. So far I have been comfortable with the Bible as the final say.

Think of a government–someone has to have the final say. After much discussion and deliberation on something to happen, the final say is given by the governing body as based on the law or they make a new law adjustment. In my religion, I have chosen the governing body to be the Bible–other things can and will have input but the final analysis will come from it until the day that Christ comes or I am convinced that I am wrong.

This is the correct definition of Sola Scriptura.

I would like also your thoughts on Nehemiah when he told people to not buy or sell on Sabbath or they would be arrested. Or similarly when the people lost their blessing for failing to pay tithe and offering. What about Samuel disciplining Saul for not completely killing off all the Ishmalites. What about the priests of Baal with on Mt Carmel with Elijah–he didn’t just say–we’ll let you go now. At the end of several letters the apostle Paul speaks very strongly about certain individuals and having nothing to do with them. This all sounds a lot like coercion by your definition.

The issue is this: A church should be able to maintain itself and it’s principles. There are many examples in the Bible of this. At the same time, the Bible and church as well as our country supports the individual’s right to choose and learn for himself as long as it doesn’t infringe on others within reason. This is a fine line. I believe it has been crossed and you obviously don’t. I cannot see how these teachers are not impacting students ideology significantly to their bias. As long as you agree with their bias, that is okay, if you don’t then it isn’t. Considering a lot of the parents think it is the other way, this can be misleading obviously.


The hinge of our faith
Ron: You are wrong. The sources from the Human Genome project estimate that the human genome is up to 95 to 97% functional. Your information is out of date! Also, just because you think you know something, does not mean that someone else is less knowledgeable or an idiot.

Please read this article from 2007: ENCORE Project Consortium et al., Identification and analysis of functional elements in 1% of the human genome by the ENCODE pilot project, Nature 447, 799-816 (14 June 2007); Richard Ingham, Landmark study prompts rethink of genetic code, Yahoo News, accessed June 15, 2007.

The only reason why scientists believe what they do is because they chose to just as you do! You did not chose to answer my question on pollens as you have no explanation or have not even read about it and chose to leave it up to faith in your fellow men. Also who you have chosen to believe in explanation on genetics as well obviously though it seems as though you haven’t read all the articles available either and chose to be rude about thing prior to checking sources on you data. Most scientists don’t even get published if they go against evolution–it is truly a belief process–just as you have show by the way you have belittled me in this web page. You have no idea my education or background. How could there be truth in all the muddiness of bias out there? And somehow we call this science–I call it religion.

I guess I have to choose who I’m going to believe–something based on biased scientists–obviously. Or God–what I believe with searching over my lifetime is what he has lead me to is His true book–the Bible. It describes a way of living and being best done by a group of believers called Seventh-day Adventists–they happen to hold that the Bible is the rule to life and religion–so I thought, “Great, I am in the right place.” Now, I worry on where to send my children because I find that not every SDA feels that the Bible teaches exactly what it says–maybe it didn’t mean what it says. Maybe, it was allegorical. Well, how much. Then, you just lump all the churches together then cause it doesn’t really matter anyway, or does it?


Recent Comments by Shannon

Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’
Carl and Sean,
Great summary Sean!
Carl, I do not think that Sean’s point is that he was trying to prove 6000-10,000 years. He was trying to decided which was more tenable–the traditional Biblical understanding of Genesis or the more Evolutionary from a Scientific perspective. Given the evidence, he feels that the weight is further from the ultra long–both take as certain amount of faith in the end. You just start with having to decide between the 2 ideas–Short or really long–I don’t think that there is a third choice religiously or scientifically out there at this moment.

My feeling is that it is always going to be nice to see some evidence but in the end, you will have to decide in faith. That is what you will do with the science or with the religion. Right at this time, I think we are all going to have to chose if we are going to make a religion out of science or not. If not, I think we better stick with what the Bible says and it is pretty straight forward to me. Then, it will always be nice to get a little back up from the science but we don’t have to.

Sincerely,

Shannon

PS–The Bible advises not to sleep with your neighbor’s wife. If society said otherwise, and 99.9% of experts said it was okay, would you do it? Some things we just will get wrong.


Dr. Geraty clarifies his “Challenge” to literal 6-day creationism
Shane: Thank you. You comment was better worded than I could have explained.


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Michael: When you become an apostle or prophet–you can write letters–long ones– of discipline with strong language even as necessary. A lot of people use this as the norm to be able to talk to strangers and acquaintances the same way they would discipline their children when they have not established any status for this or knowledge for the other party to base any ability to judge or respect. More than likely the other will react negatively. This is not the case for the majority of us and will not be. When or if you obtain leadership in our church this may change for you but until that time you may not be able to instruct as such. The funny thing about the internet is that there is no way of telling as I said before so you have to assume the other person has no idea so the best to do is act as such with kindness and explanation.

Examples: “Where do I begin?” “poor bible student and quite ignorant of church history.” “Really?”

Maybe, maybe you were just being just a little defensive. Do you think the evolutionists will go any easier on you? Especially if you are trying to tell them they are of the devil.

Your quote of Timothy with exposure of sin before the church to reduce the chance of having it happen again–how would you go about that if you were in charge. I know a personal friend that had that happen to them–they left the church for many years–they were brought before the church and asked to confess their sin before the whole congregation at church. Yes, it was a sin. There was no 2 ways about it. So in front of a church filled with people a 16 year old girl told how she got pregnant out of wedlock! It is this type of misinterpretation of scripture that hurts people, their understanding of God and our church! Sin has to be handled and removed correctly–a leader should have the responsibility to confess to the church a public issue or sin. A 16 year old with a private sin may best need to deal with a few people at a time and specifically confess and ask forgiveness to the family she lives with and maybe the one of her significant relationship.


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Justin: You are obviously biased. I’m sorry you see it that way. I did use the Bible and did not insinuate that Micheal did not know what he was talking about. I’m glad you are happy about being right though. It is nice to feel that way. . . .


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Michael: You have no idea who I am or what my education is. The internet on a discussion site is no place for long explanations and arguments. Basic quotes and beliefs are simple for explanation or understanding. More will not get the job done in this format. Making judgments as to education and ignorance is usually comparative and not too accurate. My statements were made on the other hand off of your ongoing aggressive and demeaning use of wordage in our discussion and discussion with others that don’t happen to agree with you.

You may find that the world will all be much less smart that you if you use agreement with you as the criteria. There are a lot of people that use this as a criteria by the way and I have been treated badly by many of them. Some of them are probably much smarter that you and me put together. Just because of that does not make them right or any more believable.

Respect truly comes as a result of the ability to be respected.