Comment on The hinge of our faith by Geanna Dane.
Rich, with all due respect you are simply mistaken.
What do we know for example about the extent of the flood? The Bible says only this in Geneses 7:18-20: “The waters…rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.”
Although we Adventists insist the word “all” here is absolutely literal, to be consistent (which Adventists insist we are) the word “all” CAN in fact have a very limited meaning. Here are two examples.
Genesis 3:20 “Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.” (NIV) In this case, “all” referred only to humans among the “living”.
Genesis 8:9 “But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark.” (NIV) But from Genesis 8:5, we know that the tops of the mountains were visible 40 days before this! “The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.” (NIV) In this case “all” refered only to the area over which the dove flew.
So clearly, from the Bible, if “water over all the surface of the earth” does not mean that water literally covered all the surface of the earth, one cannot support from the Bible that “all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered” means that water literally covered all the surface of the earth.
There are by the way other examples in which “all” does not mean “everything”..
THus, Adventists CANNOT defend from the Bible that every speck of land was covered by water during the flood. We MUST resort to Ellen White. Any attempt to do otherwise is dishonest and completely distorts scripture. So to say our beliefs on creation and the flood are all supported by the Bible is simply dishonest.
Geanna Dane Also Commented
The hinge of our faith
“By way of objection to this interpretation those who believe in a limited flood, which extended perhaps as far as mankind may have penetrated at that time, urge the fact that kol is used in a relative sense, as is clearly the case in passages such as Ge 41:57; Ex 9:25; 10:15; De 2:25; 1Ki 10:24. However, we still insist that this fact could overthrow a single kol, never a double kol, as our verse has it.â€
Thank you for sharing this, David Read.
The double kol is interesting. I found acouple more uses (and there are probably more)::
I Sam 2:22 – Now Eli, who was very old, heard about everything his sons were doing to all Israel and how they slept with the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.
So clearly Eli had the time to listen to and heard about EVERY single detail about the things his sons were doing to EVERY single individual in Israel. The double kol leaves no room for doubt.
II Sam 3:37 – So on that day all the people and all Israel knew that the king had no part in the murder of Abner son of Ner.
So clearly ALL of the people, if not on the planet earth certainly ALL of Isreale including infants and toddlers, knew the king had no part in the murder. The double kol leaves no room for doubt.
Surely there is no hyperbole in the Bible.
The hinge of our faith
I will make one more very simple observation. If Ellen White told us that the flood did not cover ALL of the earth we would all be in agreement todaay that her statements were not inconsitent with the Bible. Okay I’m finished.
The hinge of our faith
“Declaring that there are no other birds with teeth is not accurate.” (Bob Ryan)
Ahem…I’d like to know of a modern bird species that has teeth.
But, there is irony in BOb’s mistaken point for which he offers no evidence (unless he wishes to address the fossil record). Of course we are told that the reptile-to-bird transformation is impossible, but is it possible to see a bird-to-reptile transformation? How about a mutant chicken that has teeth like a crocodile? This HAS happened!!! And it happened naturally without gene manipulation by humans.. Scientists have shown that the “static genome” of one organism CAN generate unexpected traits, even very complex and obviously very new ones ((after all a bird is created and birds do not have teetH). Check out this story:
http://www.livescience.com/animals/060222_chicken_teeth.html
And I know, Bob will piont out that the bird had massive genetic defects and died, and that it did’nt even hatch. But the fact remains that it was a bird with a mouth full of reptilian teeth!!! And scientists can manipulate existing gene variation in chicks to create many more chicks with a mouthfull of teeth!!! This makes my point: a genome can be reaaranged too create very different structures and forms of life.
Recent Comments by Geanna Dane
Ravi Zacharias: Should Church Members be Held to a Higher Standard?
Professor Kent, thank you for defending me, but its not really necessary. You have been very kind to me and I have greatly appreciated the way you and your wife so generously share your faith. You have given me added confidence in the Bible and I have a better understanding of how to trust God’s word ahead of science. Thanks to your encouragement I now enjoy attending church more than ever. I have also learned that my personal experience with God is much stronger when I avoid contentious and negative websites like this one. After reading a few posts here I can’t bear the thought of reading more. Makes my stomach turn.
Your friend,
Geanna
Ravi Zacharias: Should Church Members be Held to a Higher Standard?
Wow, a friend gave me a phone call and sure enough, my name has come up here again.
Ken, please understand that you are seeing some of the worst of Adventism at this website. I don’t understand the mean-spirited and snarkey posts that are so common here even from clergy like Pastor Constantinescu. I can forgive their treatment of me and others as I attribute their comments to the impersonal nature of the internet. I strongly suspect that if I were casually chatting with them in the foyer after church they would be very kind and gracious, much like most other church members that I sit down with in the pews each week. I prefer to assume these men are sincere upstanding Christians and so I don’t wish to respond in kind to their remarks.
I actually have family in Michigan and fully intend to sit in on a service by Pastor Constantinescu one day. I will make a point to visit with him personally after the service and he will not know who I am (unless I decide to publicy post my impression afterwards- which I think would be uncharitable of me). He will answer to God how he has treated me and others here, and how he treats people in person. I don’t care to defend myself further. Believe whatever you wish to believe, Ken, but know that Jesus loved his enemies and we should be willing to do the same.
Video show LSU undermining church doctrine
I don’t think there is anything any of you truly wish to hear from me. It doesn’t matter how nice or agreeable I am, everything gets interpreted from an extreme point of view that I am seldom able to anticipate. If I have misplaced anything, it has been my time spent here. I agree on many issues about the message, but I don’t share the personal vendetta and punitive approach that others articulate here.
I wrote a very nice, very sincere reply to Sean, thanking him for the many positive things he does for the church. There was no anger or sarcasm in the message. I don’t know why it has not been approved for posting yet, but he is welcome to treat and interpret the message as he wishes. I’ve made my peace and I am finished for good.
Good-bye
Video show LSU undermining church doctrine
Sean,
Thank you for your concerns about the education of Adventist young people and for trying to find solutions to save them from losing their faith. We need them and they need us.
Thank you for attempting to share with Adventists your understanding of the overwhelming evidence that supports our belief in God, the Bible, Genesis, 6 days, 6,000 years, the spirit of prophecy, the nonexistance of the flying spaghetti monster, and the like. It’s refreshing to know that faith is not enough.
Thank you for bringing the importance of “transparency” and “on the church’s dime” to our attention. Your concepts are like manna to the faithful.
Thank you for pointing out individuals and institutions by name, and making clear to us how they continue to undermine the fundamental values and beliefs of our church and how our administrators have utterly failed to correct them. They must surely be a part of the much-anticipated omega apostasy.
Thank you for taking so much time to correct those of us who disagree with you. Perhaps there is hope for us after all.
Thank you for adhering so vigorously to what you believe to be God’s will for your life. We admire your fidelity to your stated positions and family and spiritual values.
Thank you for defending the faith of those who do not understand or agree with your views but still believe in many of the same spiritual truths that you do. We can only hope that they too can find their way to the kingdom of God.
Thank you for being so patient and respectful toward those who hold to different views than you do. Your example will perhaps inspire these individuals in ways that only God can understand.
May God bless you abundantly.
Video show LSU undermining church doctrine
So, no big deal right? Since most are not affected nothing needs to be done for those that are?
I didn’t say either, Sean. I respectfully pointed out that it was unnecessarily cruel, in my humble opinion, to shut down a university (as some have argued), ship it to Europe (as one individual suggested), or tell parents to send their children elsewhere when so many students have no exposure to the lies and theft that you have diligently brought to our attention and receive blessings from an Adventist college that are very difficult to get from a secular college.
Why is it that I can’t say even one acceptable thing here? No one should object to anything I’ve written in the past few posts above this one. Can’t you simply say, “Thank you Geanna for sharing your experiences and views. You raise some valid points.”
