Comment on The hinge of our faith by Ron.
Shannon: It is like saying you cannot understand Physics if you cannot master Chemistryâ€“yes they overlap but they are not prerequisite.
A better analogy might be that you can’t understand physics without understanding mathmatics.
Just as mathmatics describe physics, so evolution describes biology.
Evolution is the whole purpose of DNA. That is what DNA does, and life really isn’t sustainable unless it evolves.
You might as well try to convince a physicist that gravity doesn’t exhist, as to try to convince a biologist that evolution doesn’t exhist. Firing a biology teacher for teaching evolution makes about as much sense as firing a physics teacher because they no longer teach that the world is flat.
Ron Also Commented
The hinge of our faith
13. You can’t believe in “The Bible and the Bible only”, then quote Mrs. White or any other source.
The hinge of our faith
We are getting sidetraked, and there is too much here to respond to every point. Let me try to summarize a few points.
1. From my perspective the real issue is, “What role does coersion play in helping or hindering the discovery of truth.” In my opinion, exploring the issue freely, even looking at and issue from the perspective of an “infadel” can only enhance the cause of truth. Truth is Truth and can never be compromised by our belief or lack of belief. Coersion of belief or consciousness is morally wrong, especially in the Adventist church which is founded on Christ, the Present Truth.
2. Everything following is practically irrelevant.
3. My definition of evolution: Any change in the genome that is beneficial to the organism is evolution. There is no functional difference between micro and macro evolution, it is only a matter of the quantinty of changes. The nylonase gene came into being in the last 75 years, I believe that God the eternal creator created it and I see it as an example of evolution, you seem to believe that God stopped creating and that it isn’t an example of evolution. I believe that God created nylonase, you believe he didn’t. Which of us believes in God as the Creator? I don’t think it is truely possible to believe in God as the creator and not believe in evolution.
4. I have no problem with anything you have quoted from Mrs. White. In my opinion you are reading more into her statements than she intended.
5. I will reiterate, your favorite quote speaks of geology and long periods of time. It says nothing about evolution.
6. If you read the story carefully, both the Bible and Mrs. White imply a rapid form of evolution.
7. By my reading of Mrs White, she believed that the Bible and Nature are both from the hand of God and cannot be in conflict, so any discrepancy we see means that we just don’t understand. I don’t accept the assertion that our understanding of the Bible is more reliable than our understanding of science. I acknowlege that Mrs. White makes statements that seem pro-Bible/antiiscience, but as I quoted previously, she also states explicitly that our schools are to teach science to correct our errors in theology. She could have said it the other way around, but she didn’t.
8. Shannon, I can’t comment on pollens, that is out of my area of expertise, and it really doesn’t pertain to the issue of freedom of thought.
9. Here is your “Bird-dinosaur”
10. The very fact that the issue generates so much controversy proves in my mind that there is enough doubt about the truth that we, especially as Adventists should be tolerant of those on the other side. We certanly shouldn’t be firing or threatening anyone.
11. Coersion is the fundamental principle of Babylon, from Cain,Able and the tower of Babel, to the three worthies in the fiery furnace in Babylon, to Pagan Rome and the persecution of Chritians, to Papal Rome and the persecution of the Martyrs, to appostate protestantism and the Salem witch trials, to Islam and 9/11, to contemporary Adventism firing Biology teachers. Remember, Christ did NOT come to save the Righteous (those who by faith think that they are right). He ONLY came to save Sinners (those who think they don’t understand).
12. “The Bible and the Bible only” as the only source for truth sounds nice, but has no foundation in reality.
early Adventists did NOT consider their Fundamental Beliefs to be a creed
Bob, Early Adventists . . . their Fundamental Beliefs? I don’t remember the exact date, but I think the Fundamental Beliefs were voted in the late 70’s early 80’s and they have been changed since. Unless I am an “early adventist”, the early adventists didn’t have any fundamental beliefs. What they had was Bible conferences and camp meetings where they hashed out their differences via careful study, and they had a lot of disagreements along the way.
And don’t call me an evolutionist. That is simply more name calling.
Recent Comments by Ron
1. If you are really worried about it, send your son to another school.
2. Would you have us give up the right to be seekers for truth and our dependence on the word of God in favor of orthodoxy and a man made creed?
3. For Freedom, Christ has set you free. Part if that freedom is academic freedom, to explore ideas to see where they lead, even if in the end they turn out to be wrong.
4. Part of that freedom is to have honest doubts and to be able live with them knowing that God loves us so much, that he gave up his son so that we would have to privilege of knowing right from wrong. To not respect the right of people to be wrong is to disrespect Christ’s sacrifice and to be a false wittness to the character of God.
LSU responds to Michigan Conference
Hang in there, there are still a lot of us who support La Sierra. Now is the time to stand for the truth though the heavens fall. Now is the time to stand up for freedom of conscience within the Adventist church.
Many of us have not forgotten the horrible price paid, in the struggle against authoritaianism and tyranny, by those who first taught us Righteousness by Faith. I am sorry this attack is coming on your watch. I would not want to be in your shoes for anything, but I am praying for you and I am happy to send money to help replace any funds lost through lack of support from the church. When will Christian’s learn to one thing Christ came to teach, God’s love and mercy?
I think this quote from Ellen White makes it clear that all things were created in 6 days that humans can observe or see:
See, this is where the 6th fundamental belief goes wrong. It doesn’t stick with the Bible, but imposes on the Bible an interpretation that comes from Mrs. White.
We need to do away with ALL the “fundamental beliefs”, and go back to the Bible. The minute the Adventist church abandoned the Bible as the only rule of faith, we ran afoul of the curse in Revelation against adding to God’s word.
I will be suprized if they create a textbook that is rigorous and honest with the data, but I hope they do.
Richard Sherwin: Truth is the word of God, not science
Well, there you have it again. We are talking about a Science class. Unfortunately, if in is not science, then the science teacher doesn’t have the luxury of teaching it.
Until you can get scientific evidence that God created in 6 days, you can’t teach that in a science class because it isn’t science.
Yes, all truth matters, even scientific truth.