La Sierra schism widens

By Sean Pitman, M.D.

La Sierra University needs to make up its mind. Its administration claims it is in full support of the SDA Church and its doctrines as evidenced by the LSU Board of Trustees statement in November 2009:

The Board of Trustees if fully mindful of La Sierra University’s responsibilities and commitments as a Seventh-day Adventist institution of higher education. This includes whole hearted support for the doctrines and teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as defined by the 28 Statements of Fundamental Beliefs, specifically fundamental #6 [dealing with a literal creation week]. (LSU Board)

But its biology professors, and now Faculty Senate, have essentially said it doesn’t have to sacrifice “academic freedom,” if certain professors happen to disagree with and teach contrary to fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church – on the Church’s dime. LSU’s position doesn’t seem so clear.

While many of these same professors do believe in a God, they do not believe God created life on this planet recently and in six days. These professors do not support this SDA fundamental position personally or in their classrooms. One senior biology professor publicly derided those who do, calling them the “lunatic fringe” (Creating Controversy). He also stated, “I am not OK with getting up in a science course and saying most science is b—s—” (Ibid).

Many of the other LSU science professors, and even LSU religion professors, are of the same opinion. They fully support, not just the teaching of, but the promotion of the modern mainstream evolutionary view of origins as the gospel truth to their students.

In a recent PR spot published in the Record (January 2010), biology department chair James Wilson said:

The La Sierra biology faculty have faith that God is their Creator and Sustainer. Each faculty member understands the important responsibility to facilitate broad education in biology in ways that embrace the Adventist perspective of God as the Creator of all things” (Recorder).

Believing in a Creator God isn’t the same as supporting the stated SDA fundamental position on a creation week of six literal days, a position which many professors at LSU clearly do not support, much less promote, in their classrooms (just the opposite in fact).

LSU argues again and again that because it is doing so many other good things, this particular point is no big deal and should be forgotten. After all, LSU does a tremendous amount of community service and foreign mission work. Also, 13 students at LSU were baptized in 2009! This should not overshadow the potential loss that is occurring from students being taught essentially they were not made in the image of God. It seems even LSU president Randal Wisbey has suggested a recent, six-day creation is perhaps outdated and needs reevaluation in light of current scientific evidence, as did his predecessor, Lawrence Geraty (Pitman).

If the LSU Faculty Senators stand so strongly for the pure academic freedom of their professors to promote theistic evolution as the truth in SDA science classrooms, without providing any arguments or support for the stated SDA view on a literal creation week, so be it. LSU shouldn’t advertise itself as in full support of the stated fundamental positions of the SDA Church though.

LSU should be open, honest, and candid about what it stands for and teaches in its classrooms, instead presenting a facade. Students, parents and the SDA community at large deserve to know what they are paying for with their hard-earned dollars. Why is LSU worried about saying what everybody already knows? Here is a suggested statement LSU could make:

Because of our stand for academic freedom here at LSU, we have many professors who do not believe in or support certain fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church in their classrooms. Be advised the majority of our science professors are theistic evolutionists and will promote the modern evolutionary view in their classrooms as the most likely story of origins.

We have yet to see such transparency from LSU yet.

Frequently, Wisbey and others have cited Matthew 18:15-17 not being followed by those who have objected to the promotion of evolution at LSU. It is important to remember this advice is in regard to private sins, which are not generally known or publicly promoted. Beyond this, many have struggled with LSU over the promotion of theistic evolution in its classrooms for many years, starting out very privately and discretely, but without any effect. Ultimately, such decided resistance to open transparency, not to mention active reform, must be met in a more direct manner, even in a Christian church. We deserve nothing less than full transparency when it comes to our own church organizations, especially our schools. Otherwise, what’s the point of having them if “academic freedom” turns them into something essentially indistinguishable from what public universities already offer?

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65 thoughts on “La Sierra schism widens

  1. Sean said:
    Yet, LSU’s PR manager, Larry Becker suggests that as long as everyone believes in some sort of God at LSU that it doesn’t matter if theistic evolution

    The “whole point” of evangelizing FOR the doctrines of theistic evolutionism from INSIDE Adventist teaching institutions is to claim to have achieved a successful marriage between “some kind” of Adventism and the atheist oriented doctrines on origins found in evolutionism. The whole point of the “theistic” part of that “evolutionism” according to 3SG 90-91 is the “disguised” feature so clearly “outed” in 3SG.

    The testimony of former students and faculty that has been posted here – confirming the all-for-darwinism and less-than-Adventism marching orders for LSU in the past – is merely confirmed by the current public statements.

    We see the massive LSU ship executing a hard left-turn.

    Let us see if there is yet a responsible SDA Administrator left to keep her from keeling over.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  2. Doesn’t LSU know it looks completely foolish in its lies? I guess they’re betting on people NOT reading Educate Truth or looking into this issue. Sad. If you’re going to lie, at least be good at it and don’t contradict yourself in public.

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  3. I suppose that, based on their reference to how this would have been handled “Biblically” that they feel Paul was in complete error to publicly oppose Peter to his face for racial and religious bigotry.

    They are free to teach whatever they want. The big question is why isn’t the SDA Church stepping up to stop funding them? Didn’t our church learn its lesson about allowing institutionally-supported heresy at Battle Creek?

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  4. “And still the longing to conform to worldly practices and customs exists among the professed people of God. As they depart from the Lord they become ambitious for the gains and honors of the world. Christians are constantly seeking to imitate the practices of those who worship the god of this world. Many urge that by uniting with worldlings and conforming to their customs they might exert a stronger influence over the ungodly. But all who pursue this course thereby separate from the Source of their strength. Becoming the friends of the world, they are the enemies of God. For the sake of earthly distinction they sacrifice the unspeakable honor to which God has called them…” (Patriarchs and Prophets, page 608)

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  5. “Seeing the failure of his efforts to crush out the truth by persecution, Satan had again resorted to the plan of compromise which led to the great apostasy and the formation of the Church of Rome. He had induced Christians to ally themselves, not now with pagans, but with those who, by their devotion to the things of this world, had proved themselves to be as truly idolaters as were the worshipers of graven images. And the results of this union were no less pernicious now than in former ages; pride and extravagance were fostered under the guise of religion, and the churches became corrupted. Satan continued to pervert the doctrines of the Bible, and traditions that were to ruin millions were taking deep root. The church was upholding and defending these traditions, instead of contending for “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Thus were degraded the principles for which the Reformers had done and suffered so much.” (Great Controversy, page 299)

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  6. “La Sierra University needs to make up its mind. Its administration claims it is in full support of the SDA Church and its doctrines as evidenced by the LSU Board of Trustees statement in November 2009:

    The Board of Trustees if fully mindful of La Sierra Universities responsibilities and commitments as a Seventh-day Adventist institution of higher education. This includes whole hearted support for the doctrines and teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as defined by the 28 Statements of Fundamental Beliefs, specifically fundamental #6 [dealing with a literal creation week]. (LSU Board)

    But its biology professors, and now Faculty Senate, have essentially said it doesn’t have to sacrifice “academic freedom,” if certain professors happen to disagree with and teach contrary to fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church – on the Church’s dime. LSU’s position doesn’t seem so clear.”

    I’m not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. Two completely different groups of people who all work at LSU. Each group is saying something different. Each group has different concerns and different objectives. The Faculty Senate only represents the official views of the Faculty Senate. The administration and board of trustees would be the more official voice. I wouldn’t expect them to be in complete agreement.

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  7. As a member of the SDA church, I can’t believe that the church has no say in what is being taught at her own institutions. Let’s just get directly to the crux of the whole situation. If these people are going to continue in sin they should all be replaced with real SDA’s–and don’t tell me they are real SDA’s–they aren’t unless they believe in all the church doctrines–and they have plainly stated that they don’t. Not only should they be fired from their jobs, they should be disfellowshipped…and that goes for the administration and the boards of whatever…the place needs to be cleaned out from the top down.

    And, going higher still, where are the church leaders? They need to get the guts to do their jobs and stand for the truth. And if they don’t have the guts, we need new church leaders as well. This viper’s nest has been allowed to grow for far too long and it is going to take people with courage, who are willing to do God’s will, instead of bowing to popular worldly opinon, to get the job done. Where are our modern Davids, Elijahs, and Ellen Whites? These people all called sin by its right name and dealt with it. Who will step forward today?

    And it’s not only LSU that is thumbing their noses at the rest of us church members–so are many of the other supposed institutions of higher learning in the SDA fold. Here I refer to ‘contemplative spirituality’ which is nothing more than spiritualism and is blatently promoted by spiritists. No wonder Jesus said He would spew us out of His mouth. Well it is time to wake up, Laodecia…wake up or face the consequences. Those who refuse to teach truth will pay a fearful price for leading others astray come the judgement day.

    Faith

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  8. Excellent point Faith. I agree with you. In fact I am creating two videos for the SDA church members that will point this out. We all need to become very vocal and put a stop to what LSU is doing in the name of Seventh-day Adventism. As a church, God has given us gracious blessings on the condition of obedience. Should we turn away and be disobedient then those blessings will become curses and we all will suffer the consequences. We can no longer afford to wait for leadership to take care of this problem. We must ALL act now to stop this blatant apostasy. If we do not, then God can no longer protect us and all manner of evil will come upon our church. Will this apostasy be the one that will make the church appear to fall? Who knows. But we do know that God’s promises can no longer be fulfilled to our church if it allows open sin. Have we learned anything from the Bible about this? You would think with all the examples in the Bible that we would know better and act to stop this more quickly. Have we become the dumb dogs that don’t bark in Isa 56:10? There’s a lot of debate going on about this problem, but we need to start organizing and finding ways that either individually or as a group or church how we can start having an affect to stop LSU. Don’t assume leadership will cure this problem. It would be great if they do, but its been years now and the problem marches on.

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  9. I completely agree. The time has come to DO SOMETHING instead of just hoping it will go away if we are “kind,considerate,loving Chistians.”

    The devil is hard at work trying to take over our institutions and, unfortunately, it appears that the “powers that be” are simply turning the other way and pretending it isn’t happening. Simply cut the tithe money going to institutions that are not teaching our true beliefs and the “rats” on the ship will disappear in a hurry. It is high time we take a firm stand for truth. (It’s no wonder God doesn’t have one single thing good to say about Laodicea!) Where are our Daniel’s, our Paul’s, our heroic Reformers and our early pioneers–all of whom stood for right regardless of whether or not it led to the lion’s den, the firey furnace, the stake–or the loss of a paycheck?

    Yes, we will probably end up in some legal, or other kind of mess–which we probably wouldn’t have had to face if this evil had been dealt with when it first began–but God will see us through it if we are truly sincere in our desire to vindicate His truth. AND we need to also take a good, long look at ourselves individually to see if WE are not only teaching, but also LIVING what we claim to believe,

    As I mentioned earlier, are we truly keeping the Sabbath holy–and “guarding the edges” of it? Does our diet, our dress, our conversation, etc. truly reflect what God has outlined for US? Do we spend more time on the TV, e-mail, Facebook, etc. than we do on our Bibles? “None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand though the last great conflict. To every soul will come the searching test: shall I obey God rather than men? The decisive hour is even now at hand. Are OUR feet planted on the rock of God’s immutable word? Are WE prepared to stand firm in defense of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus?

    “But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science,
    the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support.

    Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will….
    “
    “God has given us His word that we may become acquainted with its teachings and know for ourselves what He requires of us. When the lawyer came to Jesus with the inquiry, “What shall I do to inherit eternal life?” the Saviour referred him to the Scriptures, saying: “What is written in the law? how readest thou?” Ignorance will not excuse young or old, nor release them from the punishment due for the transgression of God’s law; because there is in their hands a faithful presentation of that law and of its principles and claims. It is not enough to have good intentions; it is not enough to do what a man thinks is right or what the minister tells him is right. His soul’s salvation is at stake, and he should search the Scriptures for himself. However strong may be his convictions, however confident he may be that the minister knows what is truth, this is not his foundation. He has a chart pointing out every waymark on the heavenward journey, and he ought not to guess at anything.

    It is the first and highest duty of every rational being to learn from the Scriptures what is truth, and then to walk in the light and encourage others to follow his example. We should day by day study the Bible diligently, weighing every thought and comparing scripture with scripture. With divine help we are to form our opinions for ourselves as we are to answer for ourselves before God. “ Darkness Before Dawn, pgs. 37, 38

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  10. This is not just about teaching science. This is attacking the ten commandments, the fourth to be precise. There is a reason in nature to have a year, a month, and a day. There is no reason in nature to have a week, except Creation Week. “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh-day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.” Exodus 20:11. God created the week at the same time he created the world. People have tried to change it a yet six thousand years later, we are still following it.

    I appreciate what you are doing, because this is bigger than people want to think. These people teach for an Adventist instution. If they want to teach what they want to teach, they should go somewhere else. We have the right as private institutions to mandate certain things, such as teachings should follow our doctrines.

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  11. This is all outrageous!! Why does the greater SDA Church continue to support and fund LSU? Why do the Alumni continue their endowments? This is very dangerous stuff.

    Satan will provide all the support this school needs to continue promoting his lies. These policies, if supported, could well supply the “leven” needed to corrupt the whole SDA school system.

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  12. I see a number of posts here urging that something be done about this problem.

    Here are some suggestions.

    1. Pray God is able to take charge of this institution in times of blatant apostasy by one group or another.

    2. Inform the church members. EducateTruth is one example of trying to do that very thing. It is also helping in that it shows strong arguments on both sides – which addresses the common “dismissive” reaction from church members whenever this subject is brought up – they think it is some kind of joke that an actual Adventist school would promote belief in evolutionism in direct opposition to the Bible and to Adventist doctrines.

    Key to this effort is to maintain a presence that informs and that holds the attention of those who want to know just when this thing is fixed.

    3. Contact Leadership – a number of letters from Evangelists, pastors and professionals have been posted here as having been sent to our GC president, the PUC president – the president of LSU – etc.

    4. Organize constituent groups.
    This is the next step. Finding the right Conference, Union and GC level constituent meeting and organizing sessions that are actually empowered through the bylaws of the various organized entities to take action when something gets this far out of hand.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  13. Somehow earlier this afternoon I found myself on a different discussion channel about the things going on at LSU. This, however, was obviously one that, for the most part, believed in and supported the teaching of evolution and poked fun at the folks who were “simple minded enough to believe in a Creator God.” I wanted to respond but some how lost the site and have been unable to locate it again. So I shall respond briefly here in the hopes that at least some of the folks who wrote that way may find it and read it.

    My response is simple. I believe that the Bible–from the first verse Genesis through the last verse in the book of Revelation is divinely inspired by God just as it is repeatedly said in this wonderful Book. I firmly believe that when He says He did it in six days and rested the seventh it is an indisputable fact. Humans who say otherwise–I don’t care how many degrees they have following their names–are just that–poor, mortal humans who appear on the scene of action for a very brief period of time and then they are gone like grass in the field. Ironically, they usually haven’t been “gone” long before someone else comes along and debunks some of their pet theories.

    I may be old–and I am (85+) –but I’ve tried my God in many ways for many years and He’s never failed me yet–which is more than we can say about most humans (including ourselves) no matter how wonderful they are, how much we love them and they love us. We are all just poor, fallible, weak humans no matter how hard we try to be good and loving (and no matter how many “degrees” we may have following our names!). So, when it comes down to who we trust, I’ll “vote” 100% for my God and His Word every single time! Believe it, dear friends, the One who created us and who died on the cross for us can always be trusted!

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  14. 5. Request a refund of tuition for a particular class(es) since a Seventh-day Adventist Christian education was not provided in that/those class(es). There must be truth in advertising.

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  15. I earned my MA & ED S degrees in the Education Department at LSU. I know from experience there are departments on campus that uphold the denominational view on creation. Where are the representatives from these departments when votes are taken in the LSU Senate over issues that destroy confidence in our educational system? Does the faculty value “Academic Freedom” so highly that they wish to undermine the Biblical basis for the SDA Church? If so they are most certainly biting the hand that feeds them. My take is really quite simple: Withdraw that hand, let them feed in an institution that grants them complete “Academic Freedom”. The history of religion based higher education institutions is replete with examples of religious schools becoming secular schools over issues of this nature: “Those who fail to learn the lessons of history repeat them.” LSU has certainly been adequately informed, the info state is past, action is next. There is a GC session coming up. If you are a delegate, get informed and let your voice be heard. Actions speak louder than words.

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  16. I am writing this as an Adventist scientist saddened that the “Educate Truth” staff are so certain about exactly when and how God went about creating the world that they are willing to risk a major witchhunt and all its attendant ego-driven evils, splitting schools and churches in the process, just to get rid of me and others who hold a different view of what it means to believe in God as Creator. Do you really want to force the many professional scientists among us to choose between science and Adventist Christian faith as if they were incompatible alternatives? Was Genesis really written to trump scientific investigation in the 21st century, to be an alternative source of knowledge about Geochronology or Molecular Genetics?

    What does it mean to believe in God as creator, to accept a certain timetable of events? If we want to know how old a rock is, can’t we just ask the rock without getting permission from the theology department? If we want to know if two organisms are related, can’t we just look at their genes without having our Christian faith questioned by self-appointed guardians of doctrine who are apparently capable of only concrete,literal thinking?

    In a view accepted by many in the field of science and religion, Genesis and Geology (and Biology too, for that matter) do not offer competing views of natural history, but rather complementary views, the Bible explaining who and why and science describing the what and when. Thus it is misguided to force people to make a false choice between them. To paraphrase Galileo, “science tells us what matter does, the Bible tells us what matters.” Whether you agree with this view of science and religion or not, it is one that enables many of us to follow where the data lead without pretending to know the answers in advance. That is what scientists do. This is how we think and work. We can’t pretend we are doing science if only certain answers are allowed. Can we not have scientists in our schools, or is that ruled out by “fundamental belief #6,” as you have implied? I would like to think we have not been “ruled out.”

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  17. Ok–now we are getting somewhere. Thanks, Bob, for your practical suggestions concerning how we can do something to fight this cancer in our church body. Your first is prayer, and I have been doing this since hearing of it.

    And Marcel, thank you for pointing out that a GC session is coming up, could anyone tell me when exactly that is. (I know I should be cognizant of this, but I have had my nose in my books since Sept and have lost touch with what is going on.)

    Shane, could you post some addresses on this site to allow us to contact the people we should be contacting. I feel that it is all well and good to post messages here, but we also need to *DO* something to change what is happening. We need to make our voices heard. If we can flood the GC members with mail before the session, maybe we can influence how this is dealt with. The Lord through Ellen White has told us that when error exists in the church and we don’t raise our voices against it, we are partakers of that error. That is serious stuff. We need to get busy and blitz those who can make a difference with mail. We need to point out the evils existing in the church today and encourage them to stand for right. And don’t forget that, as well as the creation question, spiritualism is rearing its ugly head amoung us. Let’s purify our church and bring it back into complete harmony with the Bible that we claim as the basis of our beliefs.
    Faith

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  18. John Testerman: I am writing this as an Adventist scientist saddened that the “Educate Truth” staff are so certain about exactly when and how God went about creating the world that they are willing to risk a major witchhunt and all its attendant ego-driven evils, splitting schools and churches in the process, just to get rid of me and others who hold a different view of what it means to believe in God as Creator.

    I am saddened that professors at LSU seem so certain about exactly when and how God went about “creating” the world they are unwilling to present the evidence for a recent creation, which happens to be the position of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. John, this isn’t necessarily about our certainty or their certainty, but whether or not they are representing the church’s position adequately in the classroom. It is very inappropriate for an employee to use his employers classroom to promote his own personal beliefs that blatantly contradict the employers position.

    Ultimately, we’re not trying to get rid of anyone; however, if an employee refuses to comply with the wishes of his employer, I’m afraid it could happen. You’re more then welcome to hold whatever views you want on creation and still remain a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but taking a paycheck while undermining the church’s core beliefs in a classroom is something that any organization should not tolerate if it wishes to remain viable.

    We can absolutely have scientists in our church; however, if the scientist is going to be a paid representative, he should seriously consider whether in good conscience he can adequately support the scientific world view of the church. We have many scientists at our universities that see very good evidence for a recent creation.

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  19. ProfessorNotKent:

    The evidence you use is old, representative of only a few individuals (including at least one apparently retired and no longer at the university), and highly selective. You belittle everyone who disagrees with you, and you make accusations about those who defend these biologists, but we are not so naive or stupid to believe you have a complete understanding of every single faculty member’s statements or views.
    http://www.atoday.com/content/lsu-faculty-senate-affirm-academic-freedom-biology-colleagues#comment-6333

    I didn’t say that all professors at LSU are promoting theistic evolution – just that many of them are. Even one professor who is publicly undermining the Church’s clearly stated fundamental positions on the Church’s dime is one too many in my book.

    Also, the available evidence is current. I have the current lectures of Lee Greer for example. These lecture materials strongly support the modern mainstream evolutionary perspective. There is no hint in these lecture notes in favor of the SDA position on origins. Also, I know quite a bit about Lee Greer and he is by no means supportive of the SDA perspective on origins. All you have to do is ask him. He’ll tell you straight up where he stands. He is unabashidly, openly, and honestly a theistic evolutionist who ardently believes in the mainstream evolutionary perspective on origins and the allegorical nature of the Genesis narriative – and promotes his views to his students.

    I actually admire Lee Greer. I think he is a good guy – and very sincere. I have nothing personal against him. However, he just so happens to be working in the wrong place given that his views on origins go fundamentally against the stated views of the SDA Church as an organization (i.e., his employer). And, he is by no means alone in his views at LSU.

    There is nothing hateful here. Why is it wrong for me to expect tithe monies to go in support of the actual stated positions of the SDA Church to which they are given? And, why is it considered hateful to expect LSU to be open and upfront about what all of its professors stand for and promote in their classrooms? Why is LSU trying to be so obtuse about the fact that many of its professors do in fact support and promote theistic evolutionary ideas in their classroomsand have been doing do for decades? How is this not in a very real sense a form of deliberate deception?

    Sean Pitman

    http://www.DetectingDesign.com

    P.S. for those who wish references to support what is really going on at LSU, see the following Open Letter (reference section):

    http://www.educatetruth.com/letters/open-letter-to-general-conference/

    Also, for those who think I’m exaggerating, why not present some counter evidence of your own? You really think the majority of LSU science professors are not actually promoting theistic evolution in the classroom? Really?

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  20. The SDA Church will meet this summer in General Session:

    Wednesday, June 23, 2010 through Sabbath, July 3, 2010 at:

    Georgia World Congress Center and Georgia Dome

    President Paulsen states:

    “We will use our time together to review and evaluate, to exchange ideas and make plans, and to ask: “How has the world around us changed in the past five years? How have we, as a church, changed? What challenges lie before us? What opportunities must we grasp?” For when all is said and done, we have just one overarching purpose: to strengthen God’s church for mission.”

    There are those among us who do not see this as a challenge to our church, but rather an issue of the church dictating individual beliefs. I see it differently. Clearly if our institutions foster beliefs that undermine the basic theology of our church, that in my mind is not only a challenge, it could be construed as apostasy. This is not a witch hunt, only a quest to determine if the Genesis account espoused by the church is upheld by the agents of the church IE it’s schools and teachers. If you also hold this view it is imperative to make your voice heard to “strengthen Gods’s church for mission.”

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  21. I am writing in response to John Testerman’s previous statements.

    Your comment, “Do you really want to force the many professional scientists among us to choose between science and Adventist Christian faith as if they were incompatible alternatives?” is either misguided, or misleading. If you don’t believe in Biblical creationism, then you obviously don’t believe Paul’s statement in Romans 5:12, “just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—.” If we evolved from lower life forms then “Adam” did not disobey God and bring death on the world. Which means that under your belief system death is not the “wages of sin” as Paul states in Romans 6:23, but a natural process that is necessary for natural selection to work.

    Your next conclusion MUST be that you also do not agree with Paul in Romans 5:19, “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” Under your “faith” Jesus’ atonement is also a lie. How then are we saved? Naturalistic evolution and the Biblical, Christian faith are “incompatible!”

    I would also like to respond to your statement, “Was Genesis really written to trump scientific investigation in the 21st century, to be an alternative source of knowledge about Geochronology or Molecular Genetics?” God knew about Geochronology and Molecular Genetics before we did. God designed the life mechanisms you speak of. You are suggesting that God LIED to the Hebrews because they were not “smart” enough to understand the truth. The “scientific investigation” that you speak of comes from an atheistic bias. It is only the slanted interpretation of evidence that challenges the Bible, not the evidence itself.

    On comment on your statement, “If we want to know if two organisms are related, can’t we just look at their genes without having our Christian faith questioned by self-appointed guardians of doctrine who are apparently capable of only concrete, literal thinking?” Similar DNA proves a common Designer, not a common ancestor. And by the way, science is supposed to be concrete, literal thinking. The scientific method is based on ideas that can be proved. How many times has “science” given the final answer, only to be proved wrong later? Science is great, but you cannot alter your faith based on it. It might be proven false later. God does not change!

    You are trying to discover how we came to be, instead of believing what God has said about it. This proves that you do not believe God. “Without faith, it is impossible to believe God” Hebrews 11:6. If God is a liar, then you are saying that He broke His own law! A Christian Scientist should be focusing his or her investigations on how we “are” not how we came to be. God has told us of our origins. You either have faith in Him or you don’t. He is either trustworthy or He is not. That is faith!

    By disclaiming Biblical, literal, six-day creationism you are also disclaiming the Scriptures, sin, the Biblical reason for death, the atonement of Jesus’ sacrifice, the law, the character of God…need I go on. Your way of thinking leads us to conclude that everything the Bible teaches about the Gospel is garbage. Theistic evolutionists cannot have it both ways.

    Please clearly state whether Jesus’ death is necessary for the Christian, and explain how that is possible in your theistic evolutionary faith system. You obviously have not thought this out. If you have, then explain it. How are we saved?

    You cannot be a Seventh-day Adventist and a theistic evolutionist. I know that you really want to fit in with your scientist friends outside the church. But God’s Word does not need to be corrected. If the Bible is wrong, we are doomed to extinction anyway under your naturalistic philosophy. You should decide whether or not you really believe God. “Choose this day who you will serve!”

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  22. Stephen: I am reminded of my paraphrased Pilgrim’s Progress where Christian and Hopeful are trying to discuss the requirements for entry into the city with Talkative. They mention the Gate requirement with the parchment as well as coming along the straight path. Christian quotes that all that enter by other ways are thieves and robbers. Talkative gets quite offended and they ask him how he has assurance of salvation and entry into the city? He say, “My heart tells me I do.” They go further with quotes and pleadings and many Bible sources as to how the Lord of the city leads his children through faith to the gates and gives them the required robes of righteousness and papers etc. . . . In the end, he had not wanted to take the time or trouble and had come by another way. On their pleading to go by way of the narrow gate and the cross, he refused leaving them saying he would be okay with the reassurance–“My heart tells me so.”

    I think that is what you are left with if you discount the word of God. John B. knew what he was talking about when he wrote Pilgrims progress. We all need to be very careful and prayerfully treat and open the Bible so we understand it fully and listen to it. It is truly our only anchor in this changing world.

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  23. We are so grateful to the Lord for giving you the courage and resolve to start educatetruth.com. We needed this venue to be able to stay up to date with what is happening at LSU. We look forward to seeing the Lord “open the Red Sea”. We are praying and hoping that as many as possible will have a change of heart and turn from this wicked deception. Either way,”the temple must be cleansed”. The Lord has told us that He will purify the church and that includes it’s institutions. We pray that, if it would help to support our leaders in making Godly decisions by attending the GC session, we would accept what appears to be an invitation to the church from Pastor Paulson when he states, “Clearly if our institutions foster beliefs that undermine the basic theology of our church, that in my mind is not only a challenge, it could be construed as apostasy. This is not a witch hunt, only a quest to determine if the Genesis account espoused by the church is upheld by the agents of the church IE it’s schools and teachers. If you also hold this view it is imperative to make your voice heard to “strengthen Gods’s church for mission.” Would we make our voices heard better if we begin to call for a representation of church members from all over the world at the GC session? At the very least, it would strengthen our resolve to stand by God’s Word by uniting with those of like-mindedness and praying together expecting the Lord to do great things. Shall we consider this?

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  24. Shane:

    I have a several serious questions requiring answers so that I can get on-board (or off-board) with the Biology Department that appears to be hiding behind the veil afforded by the term “Science”.

    I’d like to know what books, chapeters, and verses throughout scripture have been deleted from the Bibles of those in the Biology Department – a department that seems to be subject the discussions of quesitons arising from the topic of Theistic Evolution. What books, chapeters, and verses are no longer in the other Bibles in use on the LaSierra University campus.

    To me, speaking personally from my often narrow, somewhat intolerant and impatient perspective, taking extended periods of time to deal with a serious sin problems within a school claiming to be dedicated to offer an education in keeping with Biblical truths does not seem to be in the advertised program put forth by LaSierra University. God is patient – but -He frequently seems to demand immediate action in stopping and eradicating sin.

    For example, look at several of the situations He, the Creator of the Universe, took in dealing with the Hebrews on their 40 year journey from Egypt to the “Promised Land”. Can we possibly draw some lessons from God’s responses to sin that would guide us in our own responses to sin problems among us.

    It seems inappropriate to fall back on phrases such as “we must give careful consideration to…”, “academic freedom”, ” we believe in freedom of speech”, etc. The use of such phrases in any venue would be considered by most to be “fishing for an excuse to stall in hopes that a problem would possibly no longer be noticed or would be so commonplace as to become acceptable.

    If those who are uncomfortable with accepting truths from God’s word, let them express their discomfort someplace that might be more accepting of such mindsets. Maybe in a school run by athiests whould be a good starting place to look for a a change in professorship.

    What the acceptance of the theory of evolution of any kind tends to excuse is a responsibility to a higher authority – especially a divine authority. It seems to be a simple case of those so involved in such promotions to become their own gods – – to choose their own sources of leadership – – possibly to not be accountabl, themselves,e to any divine higher authority. In this particular case it looks very much like the choice may be one of choosing the word, or work, of those calling themselves “scientists” over the teachings found in Holy Scripture!

    See II Timothy 3:15-17. How could it be that the writer of Genesis could be allowed to distort God’s inspiration when considering this Biblical explanation of the origin of Scripture? There may well be other reasons for what source a professor relies upon, but, such reasons seem to pale into insignificance at this point!

    Tonight, I once again read Genesis 1 and the first few verses of Genesis 2. What is it that is unclear or leaves room for debate as to what the writer intended to convey by way of explaning just how much time was involved for each section of creation (multiple evening and morning references?)? How could it be that God allowed misinformation to appear in “His Word” meant for those who have chosen to listen to and accept His words?

    See Psalm 119:160 to see Biblical confirmation that God’s word is truth.

    In Matthew 5:18 we see reference to “nothing”, not a “jot or tittle” disappearing from God’s “law” (“nomos” in the Greek presentation of this verse). It is necessary to read the text in context to learn that the reference is to God’s law (or Torah – Instructions). It is not about the Hebraic Oral Law or to Roman Law. So what does the Biology Department not understand about what the Bible is saying about itself? What is so unclear as to give the impression that we can replace Biblical teaching with the teaching of those with a bias toward their own wisdom?

    True science is expected to be open and unbiased. It is expected to only report what is found in the laboratory. I ask, What laboratory has demonstrated the substantiated proof of what is being reported to be La Sierra Biology Department teaching? Where can we find the “scientific” proof that supports the resulting conflictt we see reported in the “Educate Truth” e-mails that come my way? And what proof is there that justifys doubting the reliability of Holy Scripture.

    I note the reference to Matthew 18 in the “Faculty Senate Resolution”. May I respactfully emphasize the necessity of paying close attention to verse 17 of Matthew 18!

    Please look at Exodus 20:2 which establishes “The Lord” as the author of the 10 commanments – the speaker and writer of this document. Further onward in this same chapter we see that it was “The Lord” who made the earth in 6 days but rested on the 7th day of that week – – further, He made that day a “holy day”! Is there something unclear about this?

    Need I draw this out to an even longer set of questions and Biblical comments on the topic? Or are there yet unanswered questions that demand a drawn out process to deal with misinformation being taught at LaSierra University? Does God consider teaching information not in accord with His Word to be sin? Or is this something I am reading into this drawn-out debate? What is the hold up for swift, decisive action? How much more indication of problems must be brought forth? Are not interviews, evidence on tape recordings, reports from students who sit/sat in classes sufficient to bring a swift conclusion to the matter? I do not consider the plea by faculties of other schools within LaSierra University to have a bearing on the topic. They too would like to be screened off from external input as to what they may at some time choose to teach. They are looking out for their “academic freedoms”. Does “academic freedom” imply the freedom to teach known, anti-bliblical, information? Does it imply the freedom to divorce the professor from adhering to Scripturally supported information when such exists?

    I leave these last few questions up to the reader of this lengthy puzzlement in which I find myself some 1,200 miles distant from my alma mater.

    By the way: Who is looking out for the interests of the students and the information being promoted for their consumption? Is it the LaSierra University Senate? May God have mercy on them and pitty on the rest of us who are concerned for the situation.

    Shalom,

    Jim

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  25. @John Testerman:

    John Testerman says:
    January 30, 2010 I am writing this as an Adventist scientist saddened that the “Educate Truth” staff are so certain about exactly when and how God went about creating the world that they are willing to risk a major witchhunt

    Hint: Educatetruth is not some avant garde think tank that “just now proposed” that maybe Seventh-day Adventist beliefs should include acceptance of the actual 7 day creation week of Gen 1:2-2:3 and “SIX days you shall labor for in SIX DAYS the Lord MADE…”

    Educatetruth is not some radical extremist group that recently came up with the idea that “theistic evolution” is in fact “disguised infidelity” 3SG 90-91.

    As much as it pleases evolutionists to indulge themselves in fictional revisionist histories — and in this case – revisionist realities — such happy fictions on their part do not constitute reality for the rest of us.

    … just to get rid of me and others who hold a different view of what it means to believe in God as Creator. Do you really want to force the many professional scientists among us to choose between science and Adventist Christian faith

    We want them to choose between junk-science -vs- Adventist Christian faith.

    We want them to choose between evangelizing for evolutionism – vs- evangelizing for the bible doctrines on origins.

    We want them to choose between disquised infidelity — vs- faithfulness to both science and the Word of God.

    We want them to choose between the confirmed fraudulent practices so prominent in evolutions public history to date – vs- integrity that would demand that those who campaign against SDA doctrines NOT be seeking paychecks from SDA institutions to carry on their nefarious work.

    This could not be any more obvious at this point.

    Was Genesis really written to trump scientific investigation in the 21st century, to be an alternative source of knowledge about Geochronology or Molecular Genetics?

    Your penchant for revisionist history is showing “again”. Hint: Genesis was written BEFORE Darwin’s book – as it turns out.

    The question that FITS history would have been “Was evolutionism invented as an atheist-compliant alternative for origins to that view that is presented in God’s Word”.

    How “instructive” that you missed that not-so-subtle detail.

    What does it mean to believe in God as creator, to accept a certain timetable of events? If we want to know how old a rock is, can’t we just ask the rock without getting permission from the theology department?

    hint: “No talking rocks”.

    But there are “various assumptions” about stasis and the processes of the past as well as the effect that the environment can have over time on the ratios of daughter to parent products in rocks.

    All of which the hand waiving illusionists in the camp of evolutionism would like the viewer to “miss”.

    If we want to know if two organisms are related, can’t we just look at their genes without having our Christian faith questioned

    Hint: Looking at genes will tell you if two eukaryote specimens are in the same genome. But it does not tell you “what genome came from another”. For that bit of fiction (of the “birds came from reptiles” flavor) you need something like proven observation – not blind all-for-atheism guesswork!

    by self-appointed guardians of doctrine who are apparently capable of only concrete,literal thinking?

    hint: The objective unbiased reader will find it “instructive” that the argument above NEVER actually proposes an exegetically sound argument for “bending the Bible on behalf of the demands of evolutionism” while it continues railing against acceptance of the most direct and obvious statements found in God’s Law itself.

    In a view accepted by many in the field of science and religion, Genesis and Geology (and Biology too, for that matter) do not offer competing views of natural history, but rather complementary views

    1. That idea was reviewed in 3SG 90-91 and then called “disguisede infidelity”.

    2. You keep proposing that the Bible solution was found for evolutionism (were you imagining just then that Moses too was a Darwinist?) – without ever stating the actual content of such a solution (showing your work, “doing the math” as it were). Kinda the model evolutionism uses without missing links to supports its happy fictions.

    , the Bible explaining who and why and science describing the what and when.

    So then IGNORING the “What and WHEN” details that we find in “SIX days you shall labor.. for in SIX DAYS the Lord MADE the heavens and the EARTH”.

    You finally admit that the counterfeit doctrines on origins being evangelized by true believers in evolutionism – can only succeed by deliberately IGNORING the Genesis account’s scope of content and time frame “details” that are explicitly mentioned in the Bible in Gen 1:2-2:3 and Ex 20:8-11.

    Whether you agree with this view of science and religion or not, it is one that enables many of us to follow where the data lead without pretending to know the answers in advance. That is what scientists do.

    1. The atheist “knows” that “there is no god” in “advance”.
    2. The atheist “knows” that all things we see around us today must therefore have occurred “by natural means”.
    3.The atheist can argue then that “live appeared” and “live evolved” to the point that we see it today by natural means — after all “life is HERE”.

    Christians who unwittingly agree to FOLLOW in that line of thinking (as if atheism is by definition SCIENCE) are directing the demise of their own faith — just as we see the results in post-Christian age of Europe, and just as 3SG 90-91 predicted.

    What amazes me is that those evolutionists think that the rest of us “won’t notice”.

    This is how we think and work. We can’t pretend we are doing science if only certain answers are allowed. Can we not have scientists in our schools, or is that ruled out by “fundamental belief #6,” as you have implied? I would like to think we have not been “ruled out.”

    We are still waiting for you to show how to bend belief #6, bend Gen 1:2-2:3, bend Ex 20:8-11 with some more substantive “detail” than your current recommendation telling us to (in essence) “ignore scope and time frame whenever the Bible mentions it”.

    Having trouble getting around to that pesky little “detail”??

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  26. Forgive me, but I feel I need to respond to John’s letter.

    John: I am writing this as an Adventist scientist saddened that the “Educate Truth” staff are so certain about exactly when and how God went about creating the world that they are willing to risk a major witchhunt and all its attendant ego-driven evils, splitting schools and churches in the process, just to get rid of me and others who hold a different view of what it means to believe in God as Creator.

    Faith: Well, John, I am sorry to have to tell you this, but you are neither an Adventist nor a true scientist. True science supports the Bible and you are setting yourself up to contradict it and true Adventists believe the Word of God implicitly. Funny how this word ‘witchhunt’ keeps getting thrown around—especially by those who are in rebellion against God and His Word. As sincere SDAs we are not engaged in any witch hunt – unless you are confessing to something else we should know about. We just want our church institutions to teach true SDA beliefs, and we have that right. And, yes, the “Educate Truth” staff, and any true Christian, can be certain we know exactly when and how God went about creating the world—God’s Word is the most certain foundation of all knowledge there is in existence…it’s a shame you and your colleagues can’t see that.

    John: Do you really want to force the many professional scientists among us to choose between science and Adventist Christian faith as if they were incompatible alternatives?

    Faith: In case you don’t know, you have already made this choice by believing in and promoting the evil of evolution. You cannot be an SDA and do this—Adventism and evolution are incompatible. Interesting that you use the term ‘professional scientists’ as if that is supposed to impress us. The fact is, you have not been true to your profession–because you have chosen to believe a popular lie.

    John: Was Genesis really written to trump scientific investigation in the 21st century, to be an alternative source of knowledge about Geochronology or Molecular Genetics?

    Faith: Isn’t it amazing that you seem to think that the Bible is less important than your ‘scientific’ investigations? How sad that mere men think they can hold their pitiful little theories higher than the everlasting Word of God. If you were interested in science at all, you would go to the Creator of all science.

    John: What does it mean to believe in God as creator, to accept a certain timetable of events?

    Faith: What does it mean to reject the timetable of events written in the Holy Word of God? Think about that, John.

    John: If we want to know how old a rock is, can’t we just ask the rock without getting permission from the theology department?

    Faith: What makes you think the theology department has the right to give you permission to ignore or disbelieve the Bible and its very plain statements regarding the 6 days of creation? That just shows me that the mind set exists there that university professors and departments are some sort of god in and of themselves. And why would you go to a rock instead of God’s record? Kind of like, why do pagans worship rocks (idols) instead of God…do you think there may be a connection?

    John: If we want to know if two organisms are related, can’t we just look at their genes without having our Christian faith questioned by self-appointed guardians of doctrine who are apparently capable of only concrete,literal thinking?

    Faith: So, let me understand this—you think that the rest of us lowly Adventists are too stupid to understand about genes and organisms and such? Such conceit! And ‘self-appointed guardians of doctrine’? Have you ever noticed that many of us have quoted from God’s messages through His servant Ellen White in support of the church doctrines and in direct opposition to what you are up to? Are you saying that Ellen White appointed herself a guardian of doctrine? If you are, you are truly walking on dangerous ground. And, if you think that the church members have no right to raise their voices in protest while you lead their young people down the garden path to destruction, you are sadly mistaken. It’s bad enough you have gone in this direction yourself, but woe to you in the judgment day when you have to answer for the souls you have led astray.

    John: In a view accepted by many in the field of science and religion, Genesis and Geology (and Biology too, for that matter) do not offer competing views of natural history, but rather complementary views, the Bible explaining who and why and science describing the what and when.

    Faith: You seem to think that the opinions and conclusions of the ‘scientific community’ trump the Word of God—now that’s sad. You are deceiving yourself if you think these are complementary views. They are such blatantly contradictory views it’s pitiful; yet you, with your ‘superior intellect’ (that you so obviously believe you possess) can’t, or won’t, see it. Ask yourself this, John, are you worshiping God or the scientific community?

    John: Thus it is misguided to force people to make a false choice between them.

    Faith: So then, you are calling God ‘misguided’? Because He is definitely asking you to choose between faith in His Word and faith in evolution.

    John: To paraphrase Galileo, “science tells us what matter does, the Bible tells us what matters.” Whether you agree with this view of science and religion or not, it is one that enables many of us to follow where the data lead without pretending to know the answers in advance.

    Faith: Forgive me, but how could you be so blind? We do know the answers in advance –God gave them to us in His Word. He stooped to give us an explanation of how we got here so that we wouldn’t have to spend lifetimes wondering. How wonderful is that? The ‘pretense’ is all on the side of evolution.

    John: That is what scientists do. This is how we think and work. We can’t pretend we are doing science if only certain answers are allowed.

    Faith: Really? Then are you saying that if you perform an experiment and you collect your data and draw your conclusions, that the conclusions are worthless because they rule out all other conclusions? Sorry, but this is how life works…there are only certain correct answers to certain questions…like it or not. Anyone who rejects God is, to quote scripture, a fool. Likewise anyone who rejects the answers He has so generously provided to us.

    John: Can we not have scientists in our schools, or is that ruled out by “fundamental belief #6,” as you have implied? I would like to think we have not been “ruled out.”

    Faith: We can (and do, for that matter) have scientists in our schools—but only those who are genuine scientists who can understand and teach those true principles of science in harmony with the Bible—and who are sincere, committed Seventh-day Adventist educators. Look back over your life, John, in all probability you started out that way. But somewhere along the line, you got funneled off into one of Satan’s master deceptions. You, and your like-minded colleagues, need to do something about that.

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  27. The lsu senate have misused the application of Matt. 18:15 in the case of the Biology Professor. His teaching is not private nor personal, but public and open to all he teaches. The scripture that applies in his case is 1Tiimothy 5:19 “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.” The fact that the Isu senate would back a teacher in error causes one to wonder what the other departments like Religion teach concerning the subject of Origins? I would encourage every teacher or thinking person to read with great care the article written by Edward Zinke in the Adventist Review, July 23, 2009 entitled Creation and the Certainty of the Second Coming. How big is God? How big is the God you worship and serve? The God we serve is the God of Heb.11:3. He can create something out of nothing in a moment when i surrender my selfish heart for Him to recreate His own image of unselfish love.
    Sincerely, Pastor Terry McComb, chair for creationrestoration.org

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  28. From Faith
    “Not only should they be fired from their jobs, they should be disfellowshipped…and that goes for the administration and the boards of whatever…the place needs to be cleaned out from the top down….This viper’s nest has been allowed to grow for far too long and it is going to take people with courage, who are willing to do God’s will, instead of bowing to popular worldly opinion, to get the job done….Let’s purify our church and bring it back into complete harmony with the Bible that we claim as the basis of our beliefs.”

    My, my. Interesting how people who promote the persecution of God’s saints by those who feel they are teaching truth can so blatantly do the same thing towards their own. Just like the Puritans escaping Catholic persecution in Europe, they came over to the New World and set up the same government to persecute others they did not agree with, so to too many conservative SDAs are willing to do the same thing.

    Faith, your tactics smack of Catholic Inquisition and Pharisaical persecution in the name of ‘truth’. Right or wrong, it is sad to see such vehemence just like the Christian Coalition and above mentioned groups coming from the SDA church. As SDAs with the eschaetological message we have, we should know better than to spew such rhetoric. This is what turns people off of SDAism. This is the kind of soul crushing legalism that too many in our church turn to, forgetting where their own faith came from and to the persecution it is heading for in the last days

    By all means, remove your support from LSU. Have the church remove their funding. Boycott it as well. However, when you start preaching Inquisition like you are and yes, even though you disagree with it…witch hunting…you are encouraging persecution and promoting elitism under the guise of ‘standing for truth’ and ‘working for God’.

    The Pharisees and Catholics were doing the same thing.

    Right or wrong, you should know better.

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  29. Darrell:

    I hope that you will please look beyond some of the more passionate, though well meaning comments of some and listen to reason. The theistic evolutionary belief system offers no Biblically based salvation (see my previous comment). If you are going to reject creationism then you have to reject the origin of sin and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. These incompatibilities must be reconciled.

    Maybe you can answer my previous question to John, which he did not answer: how is a person saved if God did not create the world by a miraculous act in six days? If you cannot answer that question then you leave us without hope for the future. We are all doomed under the theistic evolutionary “faith.”

    Please explain this to us.

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  30. Darrell: “Faith, your tactics smack of Catholic Inquisition and Pharisaical persecution.”

    The Bible says, “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”
    Daniel 7:25

    “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
    Revelation 13:7

    “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.”
    Revelation 17:5-6

    Rich

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  31. To John Testerman and Darrell

    Please know that the opinions expressed here are those of the writer and do not necessarily reflect those of the church at large. Iknow these people talk as though they and they alone are Adventists but they mistaken (to be charitable about things) Please look in on Adventist Today and Spectrum Magazine web site for the opposing viewpoint. Keep the Faith.

    Martin

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  32. “LET’S PURIFY OUR CHURCH and bring it back into complete harmony with the Bible that we claim as the basis of our beliefs.”

    -Faith

    Um – excuse me?! I think I read somewhere that it was GOD’S job to ‘purify’ His church through His angels:

    “28 The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers (destroying angels), Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

    “40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 13: 28-30, 40-43)

    People are losing their sanctified common sense over this issue. No, I do not agree with LSU Biology professors teaching contrary to the Creationist stand of the church. But neither do I agree with people allowing themselves to descend to the level of hounds baying for blood whipping the mob mentality into a furor, willing to grab the reins from God and take on the work of denominational purification.

    There are a number of statements on the Educate Truth discussions that have horrified me over that last few months, but it would be redundant to list them here. Suffice to say…

    I am disturbed. Very, very disturbed.

    I did not sign the petition Educate Truth had circulating on principle for this very reason. Some of the comments on that gem were as bad, if not worse, than the ones here. People have no idea the mentality they are feeding with this. When will it end? What will be the next issue to attract the church attack dogs? When will they be happy with the results of a mass purge? Will this be enough for them and will they be satisfied? No, of course they won’t. Evolution is only the issue du jour. They smell blood and they like it. Today it is Thestic Evolution, what will it be tomorrow? Do you think they will stop with the Biology Department? Not likely. I am sure the LSU Religion Department is also watching this fiasco with keen interest, preparing for the time when they will be the next targets. Make no mistake, the witch-hunt will not end with LSU. Already we are seeing comments on both the petition and here that other Adventist universities are next on the hit-list. Once they have ‘purified’ the schools, perhaps they will then focus on high-profile SDA churches. Maybe they won’t stop until they have gutted the entire denomination until a literal 144,000 ‘pure ones’ are left. Of course, they will most likely then start to cannibalize on each other, as there will be nothing left to ‘purify’ outside of thier little group of ‘true Adventists’.

    I say this with tongue-in-cheek of course, but you see my point.

    It’s easy howl for the heads of people when the subject at stake is one you have no particular issues with. I truly hope the individuals here who feed the inquisitional animal will remember these posts when the tables turn and the jackals come after you, and they will. Those who whip the mob into a frenzy, don’t come crying to anyone when they come after you for a point of belief or doctrine that you may have a different interpretation or take on. No one will hear you or sympathize. Own the bed you have made and sleep in it.

    Once you start down the road of church cleansing and encourage that kind of frenzy the logical conclusion is frightening.

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  33. Martin:

    I notice that everyone who seems to accept and promote a theistic evolutionary (TE) viewpoint never actually gets down to the bottom line: HOW ARE WE SAVED?

    Please, take the opportunity to answer the dominant question in my previous two comments. Honestly, there is no argument for merging Adventism with TE. If you can explain logically to me how we are saved by the atoning blood of Christ without being a literal, six-day creationist, please do so in simple, no-uncertain terms.

    Once a person accepts TE as fact, that person must either become a deist or an atheist. Which are you? We cannot just change the definition of Adventism based on our viewpoint. I cannot just decide that from now on I am going to start calling myself a physician and begin seeing patients. If I did so I would be arrested. Nor can I put on a police uniform and walk into the local precinct expecting the chief to give me a squad car.
    The word “Adventist” means something. No one is forcing anyone to be an Adventist. Why not just be logical and call it what it really is?

    If I believed that the Bible was not true concerning its statements about origins I would not be an Adventist. It would be unethical and pointless. I converted to Adventism 19 years ago because I believe the Word of God and this church is the only option for someone who believes that Bible 100%. If you don’t believe in the whole Bible, why would you be a Seventh-day Adventist? If the Bible is not true, and one day we are going to all suddenly be enlightened by naturalistic thinking, then the Adventist church will become meaningless and we will disolve as a people.

    I am trying to understand this paradox. I have never met a convert to Adventism who was a theistic evolutionist. I think that theistic evolutionists who want to call themselves Adventists probably were brought up in the church without ever actually buying into it; never a full commitment to Christ. I say this because if you were a convert and you decided that the Bible was filled with false statements you would just leave the church. You would have somewhere to go, back to your former life. I think that TE’s who call themselves Adventists don’t know what to do with themselves. They have nowhere to go back to except Adventism. Maybe they are afraid to go out into the real world. Maybe they falsely believe that they were “born” Adventists. The reality is that you have to choose to be one. Maybe they just like the “culture” of Adventism. What they fail to recognize is that they themselves are destroying the very culture they are so fervently attached to.

    I am serious. Someone out there reconcile these two opposing viewpoints for me. Please read my first statement before commenting.

    Martin, how are we saved?

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  34. Ok, so you don’t like the straight truth…hmmm…I wonder why. Didn’t Christ say that it was sharper than a two-edged sword?

    So you think we should all sit here and say nothing while young people are being led astray by the professors, do you? We should all just fold our tents and disappear into the night, huh? I daresay that would suit your purposes quite nicely. And not only yours but the devil who stands behind it all, laughing up his sleeve to see God’s church infiltrated with his cunningly devised fables.

    Do I think the professors should be disfellowshiped? Yes-if they insist on believing evolution over God’s direct Word. Anyone who doesn’t believe in ALL the doctrines of our church does not belong here. What if they were espousing the Sunday sabbath–what would we do, just say, “Oh well, they are entitled to believe whatever they want”? No! (Now, it is true that anyone is entitled to believe whatever they want…but they cannot claim to be SDA unless they believe what the church holds as their official doctrine. And they certainly have no business teaching such beliefs in our schools when they go directly against what the church believes.)

    So what does God, through His servant, say about this issue?
    “But there is no union between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness and there can be no union between their followers.” GC p. 45

    What makes the SDA church the SDA church? The only thing that separates the SDA church from all other churches is her doctrines. So if we allow anyone and everyone to teach whatever they want in our schools, or hold beliefs that are in conflict with SDA beliefs and still remain in our church, what will eventually happen to the church? She will become the same as every other church that has allowed this, and she would eventually be numbered among the daughters of Babylon. Don’t you people study history?

    You just don’t seem to realize the importance of what is going on here…or perhaps you just don’t care. Well I do–I care passionately.

    Just as in apostolic times when the pagans proposed compromise so they could be a part of the church, we are being infiltrated with false doctrines that are creeping into our church. It is important to purify the church and yes, God is in control of that, but we have our part to play as well. Open sin–which is what the belief in evolution is–is to be summarily dealt with in order to save those who would be corrupted by it–in this case the young students that have been taught this heresy. I am not picking on people because they don’t share my opinions. These people are in open rebellion against the church and her standards. Go find a Church Manual and see what the Lord directed in cases such as this.

    Think about what happened in the wilderness when Moses was faced with Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. Moses didn’t open the ground and swallow them up, God did that, but Moses called them to account…and he did it at God’s direction. You seem to have no regard for the purity of the church or its steadfastness to the doctrines that were given to us by God Himself.
    This issue is not over a mere matter of opinion…this is heresy and open rebellion.
    God’s message through His servant Ellen White is:
    “There is an alarming indifference in regard to the doctrines which are the pillars of the Christian faith. The opinion is gathering ground that, after all, these are not of vital importance. This degeneracy is strengthening the hands of the agents of Satan, so that false theories and fatal delusions which the faithful in ages past imperiled their lives to resist and expose, are now regarded with favor by thousands who claim to be followers of Christ.” GC p. 46

    Do you understand now why I am so upset over all this? Don’t forget there is such a thing as righteous indignation.

    Contrary to some opinions, I don’t enjoy any of this; as a matter of fact, I am heartily sick of this. You picture me as some dog, out baying for blood just for the sake of hunting. Give me a break–you don’t really believe that, you are just trying to muddy the waters to keep people from the real issues. (If you do believe it you really are deceived.)Fundamental Adventists are concerned for the church and its young people. What you think of me personally couldn’t be less important. We’re playing for stakes here that are way higher than your opinion of me or anyone else. You want to blast me for telling the truth? Go ahead–I really expected it much quicker than this. But all your rhetoric isn’t going to save you from the judgment day…which, when you think about it, is happening right now. We are in the Day of Atonement. Now that’s something to consider.

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  35. Adventism is not about incorporating all the worlds belief systems. It is about Biblical true. Just look at what happened throughout the Old Testament when God’s people tried to “mix” their beliefs and culture with the nations around them. God warned them not to do that. If we dilute our faith and doctrine we cease to have purpose and will disolve.

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  36. Adventism is not about incorporating all the worlds belief systems. It is about Biblical truth. Just look at what happened throughout the Old Testament when God’s people tried to “mix” their beliefs and culture with the nations around them. God warned them not to do that. If we dilute our faith and doctrine we cease to have a purpose and we will disolve.

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  37. Darrell: “Faith, your tactics smack of Catholic Inquisition and Pharisaical persecution.”

    On the contrary she refuses to drink the maddening errors of Babylon and does not think to change times and laws. Neither is she drunk with blood, much less the blood of saints who believe and obey God’s law.
    God bless,

    Rich

    (cf. Daniel 7:25; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 17:5-6)

    “As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel’s message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren. When Sabbath-keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them.” – GC88 608.1

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  38. @Stephen Vicaro:

    Once a person accepts TE as fact, that person must either become a deist or an atheist. Which are you? We cannot just change the definition of Adventism based on our viewpoint. I cannot just decide that from now on I am going to start calling myself a physician and begin seeing patients. If I did so I would be arrested. Nor can I put on a police uniform and walk into the local precinct expecting the chief to give me a squad car.
    The word “Adventist” means something. No one is forcing anyone to be an Adventist. Why not just be logical and call it what it really is?

    Amen!

    Darwin came to the same conclusion about the obvious and glaring incompatability between the actual Bible and evolutionism – (so he said) and dumped Christianity entirely.

    Richard Dawkins made the same claim as to how he became an atheist.

    P.Z Meyers makes the same claim on camera in “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed”

    And of course the entire world saw Europe spiral down into a post-Christian age via that same %90+ acceptance of evolutionist pablum.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  39. @Marcel:

    Marcel says:
    February 1, 2010 “LET’S PURIFY OUR CHURCH and bring it back into complete harmony with the Bible that we claim as the basis of our beliefs.”

    -Faith

    Um – excuse me?! I think I read somewhere that it was GOD’S job to ‘purify’ His church through His angels:

    Marcel – since you imply that you might actually be interested in inspired sources on this subject —

    1 Cor 5 – Paul argues that the church should cleanse itself of church members engaged in open rebellion and there Paul says “do you not know that a little leaven – affects the whole lump of dough”.

    Matt 18 also speaks to the issue of people who stubbornly refuse to yield to the teaching of God’s Word.

    Then we come to 3T 265 – 269 where we are told how “instructive” the sin of Achan is for the church of our day — and the fact that God will indeed hold the entire camp of the saints as guilty IF the administrators of the church fail to deal with open, blatant rebellion against the Word of God – (such as we see being described in 3SG90-91 as “Disguised Infidelity” of the worst kind).

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  40. @Darrell:

    By all means, remove your support from LSU. Have the church remove their funding. Boycott it as well. However, when you start preaching Inquisition like you are and yes, even though you disagree with it…witch hunting…you are encouraging persecution and promoting elitism under the guise of ’standing for truth’ and ‘working for God’.

    The more we dialogue with TE’s the more it becomes apparent that they do not actually know much about the inspired texts – and it shows in how little use they have for those texts in their arguments.

    But as Darrell now illustrates for us – they also seem to have a very tenuous grasp on history itself. “As it turns out” – the inquisition (in the case of heretics and certain practicing Jews who were formerly Christian) was a resort “to physical torture” to get them to change their doctrine. At the council of Lateran IV the decree to “exterminate” them was entered into canon law.

    The gross equivocation that Darrell attempts above – equating the practics of 1Cor 5:6-7 and 1Tim 5:19 (public censure) to dark ages “torture” — is clearly visible to the unbiased objective reader (and so it is avoidable).

    We need to take action – (as we see in 3T 265-269)

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  41. Stephen Vicaro: Darrell:I hope that you will please look beyond some of the more passionate, though well meaning comments of some and listen to reason.The theistic evolutionary belief system offers no Biblically based salvation (see my previous comment).If you are going to reject creationism then you have to reject the origin of sin and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.These incompatibilities must be reconciled.Maybe you can answer my previous question to John, which he did not answer: how is a person saved if God did not create the world by a miraculous act in six days?If you cannot answer that question then you leave us without hope for the future.We are all doomed under the theistic evolutionary “faith.”Please explain this to us.  

    Stephen, don’t get me wrong. I fully believe in a literal creation and deny theistic evolution. However, the Inquisitional mindset I see here by some is plain old wrong regardless of the truth of our stance. When we rail against the tactics of the midieval Catholic Church and promote how the Beast in the name of truth and a zealous desire to do what they feel is right in God’s eyes will persecute those who believe differently then they do, we SHOULD NOT be promoting this legalistic mindset towards our own people.

    We are no better off than the Pharisees who felt they had all the truth and were completely justified in crucifying Christ and dictating what the people should and should not believe. Our church has used these inquisitorial tactics many times in the past and it needs to stop.

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  42. So then, Darrell, just how do you propose we go about correcting this problem? If we aren’t supposed to speak out against the error in the church, what do you suppose will keep the church doctrinally pure?

    You err, my brother. We need to confront this issue and root it out of our school system and churches. It seems to me you are more interested in the feelings of the sinners involved than in the souls that are being lost as a result of their sin. Doing that is essentially worshiping man instea of God. I don’t enjoy hurting anyone’s feelings, but the time comes when we must stand for the right.

    “Soldiers of Christ arise,
    And put your armour on.”

    “Sound the battle cry, see the foe is nigh
    Raise the standard high, for the Lord;
    Gird your armour on, stand firm everyone,
    Rest your cause upon His holy word.
    Rouse, then, soldiers! Rally round the banner!
    Ready, steady, pass the word along.
    Onward, forward, shout a loud hosanna!
    Christ is Captain of the mighty throng.”

    You call it an inquisition, but the truth is, it is a defensive maneuver. We are under Satan’s attack and we need to do something about that–not just sit there and expect victory to fall out of the sky like ‘pink mashed potatoes’ (as Doug Batchelor would say.) We have a right–no, a duty–to lift our voices in protest AND to take action to defend our church.

    I am truly sorry you don’t see it that way.
    Faith

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  43. Faith: So then, Darrell, just how do you propose we go about correcting this problem?If we aren’t supposed to speak out against the error in the church, what do you suppose will keep the church doctrinally pure?

    First of all, as I said before, you can boycott LSU, don’t send your children or money there and the conference can separate themselves from the church if need be. This is a conference issue. Who are you to play the watchdog/Inquistor of the church to call for heads and threaten excommunication? As Marcel pointed out earlier, it is only a matter of time before such tactics are used against you in some other area.

    Second, why do you feel the need to ‘purify the church’? Theistic evolution aside, where is the diversity of belief in the church? Where is the tolerance and acceptance of differing beliefs? Who determines the level of purity to be reached and how exactly do you propose the church gets there? More witch hunts? More elitist thinking that insists your view is correct and everyone else can conform or get lost? Slander? Career destruction in the name of God’s work and ‘purity’? Where does it end?

    This is midieval Catholic methodology at it’s worse. You really want to be a part of this legalistic Pharisaism? Do you not see the parallels here?

    Be careful when you begin to make yourself the Holy Spirit, Faith. This is how every religous war began. The need to enforce religious beliefs on people and make them conform or die.

    FaithYou call it an inquisition, but the truth is, it is a defensive maneuver.

    No, it is a witch hunt and Catholic Inquisitorial tactics. It is not a defensive maneuver.

    FaithWe have a right–no, a duty–to lift our voices in protest AND to take action to defend our church.

    And ‘purging’ the church is the way to do it? Who made you and the conservative brethren the judge of what is acceptable or unacceptable to warrant persecution, excommunication and head rolling?

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  44. Darrell says, “why do you feel the need to ‘purify the church’?”

    The Bible says, “And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” Ezekiel 9:4

    The Bible says, “The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season. Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.” Psalms 145:15-16

    Why then, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” 1 Timothy 5:8?

    “For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.” 2 Thessalonians 3:10?

    The Bible says, “Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people.” Psalms 3:8

    Why then, “Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.” Ezekiel 33:9?

    “Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.” Matthew 22:9?

    “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” Matthew 7:15-16?

    “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;” Titus 3:10?

    “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.” Acts 20:28-29?

    “The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep’s throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty.” Abraham Lincoln
    God bless,

    Rich

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  45. Abraham Lincoln, Address at Sanitary Fair, Baltimore, April 18, 1864:

    “The world has never had a good definition of the word liberty, and the American people, just now, are much in want of one. We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men’s labor. Here are two, not only different, but incompatible things, called by the same name—liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties, called by two different and incompatible names—liberty and tyranny.

    “The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep’s throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty…Plainly the sheep and the wolf are not agreed upon a definition of the word liberty; and precisely the same difference prevails today among us human creatures, even in the North, and all professing to love liberty. Hence we behold the process by which thousands are daily passing from under the yoke of bondage, hailed by some as the advance of liberty, and bewailed by others as the destruction of all liberty. Recently, as it seems, the people of Maryland have been doing something to define liberty; and thanks to them that, in what they have done, the wolf’s dictionary, has been repudiated.”
    God bless,

    Rich

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  46. @Debbie:

    Debbie says:
    February 2, 2010 Someone said our tithe goes to pay these Professors. Is this true? Just where does the tithe go anyway! I’d like to know.

    Tithe goes to the religion department and to the men’s dean and women’s dean.

    offering and Tuition pay for the rest.

    To the extent that the religion department is cooperating or in Fritz Guy’s case – actively promoting evolutionism – it shares in the blame.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  47. @Darrell:

    Darrell says:

    Second, why do you feel the need to ‘purify the church’? Theistic evolution aside, where is the diversity of belief in the church? Where is the tolerance and acceptance of differing beliefs? Who determines the level of purity to be reached and how exactly do you propose the church gets there? More witch hunts? More elitist thinking that insists your view is correct and everyone else can conform or get lost? Slander? Career destruction in the name of God’s work and ‘purity’? Where does it end?

    Hint: 1Cor 5:6-7
    1 Tim 5:20

    But Darrell illustrates a good example instructive for the unbiased objective reader. His argument is to claim equality with all inspired texts (be that Ex 20:8-11 or 3SG 90-91) and then argue that all of those texts are merely “opinion” of no more value in than an TE-ist on the planet.

    Therefore to choose to affirm those texts (as if they matter and as if ignoring those texts is actual error) instead of claiming “we are ALL the same” along with your friendly neighborhood TE is to be intolerant and elitist.

    But as it turns out — the inspired texts actually do have value. weight and authority in these matters.

    As hard as that is going to be on the TE solution.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  48. BobRyan: @Darrell:Hint: 1Cor 5:6-7 1 Tim 5:20But Darrell illustrates a good example instructive for the unbiased objective reader. His argument is to claim equality with all inspired texts (be that Ex 20:8-11 or 3SG 90-91) and then argue that all of those texts are merely “opinion” of no more value in than an TE-ist on the planet.

    I’ve said no such thing, Bob. My argument is that regardless of the obviousness of error in TE, the mindset that people are generating of ‘kill em all and let God sort them out’ will usually be applied to other things that are not the mountains like TE. Our history is rife with issues of dress, adornment, meat eating, secular entertainment and sports where someone has taken a hard stance and expected everyone else to conform or you are not a ‘good SDA’. The trend has shown that bullies in the big things are usually bullies in the small things too. Who decides who is the SDA morality police that feels it is their right to purge heresy in whatever form they deem fit?

    The current mentality from many conservatives is, ‘If you can’t believe as our church believes in every doctrinal specific, you shouldn’t be an SDA.” And I’m not talking about TE here. I’m talking about not believing on how to keep the Sabbath as some do, I’m talking about not believing the finer points of biblical prophecy or eschaetology as some in our church do. I’m talking about styles of worship, dress, eating and drinking that others feel they have a monopoly on the truth of it. This mentality is taken further when the witch-hunters decide you are not moving out the door fast enough for them. Character assassination, slander, railroading, vicious gossip..all of these have been engaged in because people won’t toe the status line.

    Our church is rife with scandal, slander, corruption, and false accusations at all levels because people feel their way of worshipping, believing and interpreting the scriptures is the ‘truth’ and woe to him who doesn’t follow it that way.

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  49. Darrell, I think you are over-reacting a bit. No one has said to ‘kill em all and let God sort them out’. There has not been the least whiff of physical violence or mob mentality displayed on this site at all. If these professors were caught committing adultry, would we be asking for them to be fired? Of course we would. Would we expect them to be disfellowshiped? Of course we would. Well, they may not be guilty of physical adultry, but, (as my sister reminds me), they certainly have been guilty of spiritual adultery.

    And, Darrell, what do you think defines any given group of people? It is the rules and standards they live by, be it Hell’s Angels or the SDA church. You are basically arguing that people who don’t agree with the official doctrines of the church and refuse to follow the defined standards should be allowed to continue representing the church. Inspiration tells us that such ones are worse than infidels because they claim to be SDAs and don’t live up to the principles of SDAs; they essentially misrepresent the church and mislead people who don’t know what we are supposed to be.

    This idea that God loves us all, no matter what we do, say, or believe has been skewed to the interpretation that anything goes. Why, then, did God lead the pioneers to study the scriptures and establish the doctrines and standards of this church–sometimes even giving Ellen White visions to lead them in the right way concerning issues that couldn’t be resolved in any other way? Why, then, do angels keep records of every word, thought, and action of every human being on this earth? Do you really believe that people will go to heaven and live in harmony unless they share the same beliefs and lifestyles? (You need only look around you on this earth to know that is impossible!) God has outlined doctrines and standards for us in the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy. Do you honestly think that He called the Bible writers and Ellen White to devote their lives to record all these truths just to have them ignored?

    There IS a standard for us to live by–as has been defined by God Himself. And yes, woe will come to him who doesn’t follow it. When the Lord separates the sheep from the goats, many who thought they were saved, won’t be. (Does that make God a “Catholic Inquisitor” or a “Pharisaical persecutor”?–and, no, I am not putting myself in the place of God–don’t even go there. I am only trying to uphold the standards and doctrines He has set for us.) It is a serious thing to live according to your own will and desires instead of conforming to the will of God. All are free to choose to live the way they like, but to take the name of SDA and not to strive to live up to the standards of the church is to be dishonest. To actively teach heresy is reprehensible.

    By choosing to teach evolution in any way, shape, or form, these professors have disqualified themselves as instuctors in our institutions and, yes, even as church members. You don’t seem to understand (or care) that they are daily leading young people away from the truth. Frankly, I don’t understand why our people don’t consider this an urgent matter that needs immediate attention. With every day that passes, this poison spreads wider and deeper. Simply sitting back and letting it resolve itself is not an option. The past 25 or 30 years should have made that abundantly obvious. Even withdrawing support from the institutions involved is not going to work. We need action and we need it yesterday. Why should these people hold our institutions hostage to their false beliefs? Did they struggle to establish these schools? Men and women committed their whole lives to get these places up and running for the benefit of our people and these professed SDA teachers are being allowed to bring them to ruin. We all need to read Job 38:4-41:34 It begins:
    “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.”

    When you read this passage, it really makes you humble. God is so much greater than we could ever be. He has given us so much in the way of understanding that we could never have discovered by ourselves. What a privilege to know God…what an incalulable gift is eternal life with Him! Instead of striving to live in comformity to the world, we should be striving to live in conformity to Him and His will. We are here on this planet to get ourselves ready to live in heaven. That means we need to develop characters that will enable us to live in heaven in perfect harmony with other like-minded believers. That means we need to quit looking at the world, quit looking at self, and look to Christ, our perfect example and our essential helper.

    I truly don’t understand the mentality that comes down on people who are trying to stand up for the right when there are people out there doing their best to undermine faith in the Creator and in His church. Surely your efforts could be put to better use.

    Faith

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  50. Bob Ryan said:
    The gross equivocation that Darrell attempts above – equating the practices of 1Cor 5:6-7 and 1Tim 5:19 (public censure) to dark ages “torture” — is clearly visible to the unbiased objective reader (and so it is avoidable).
    We need to take action – (as we see in 3T 265-269)
    in Christ,
    Bob
    Rich Constantinescu said:
    Darrell: “Faith, your tactics smack of Catholic Inquisition and Pharisaical persecution.”
    On the contrary she refuses to drink the maddening errors of Babylon and does not think to change times and laws. Neither is she drunk with blood, much less the blood of saints who believe and obey God’s law.
    God bless,
    Rich
    Thank you, brothers, for your understanding and support. It is much appreciated.
    Faith

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  51. @Darrell:

    My argument is that regardless of the obviousness of error in TE, the mindset that people are generating of ‘kill em all and let God sort them out’ will usually be applied to other things that are not the mountains like TE…

    The current mentality from many conservatives is, ‘If you can’t believe as our church believes in every doctrinal specific, you shouldn’t be an SDA.” And I’m not talking about TE here. I’m talking about not believing on how to keep the Sabbath as some do, I’m talking about not believing the finer points of biblical prophecy or eschaetology as some in our church do. I’m talking about styles of worship, dress, eating and drinking that others feel they have a monopoly on the truth of it. This mentality is taken further when the witch-hunters decide you are not moving out the door fast enough for them. Character assassination, slander, railroading, vicious gossip..all of these have been engaged in because people won’t toe the status line.

    Darrell I think it is facinating how you redirect this subject on the serious issue of leading SDA students into gross apostasy (such as atheist views on origins as found in evolutionism) – into the more bland subject of “what did you do on Sabbath that I don’t agree with”.

    Is it your argument that all differences of every kind must be eliminated from church discusssion BEFORE we are allowed to even start to deal with the serious decades-long problem of evolutionism being promoted in our own universities?

    Surely you have not gone to such an extreme.

    Yet this is the logic in your argument above.

    Did you really mean to go there?

    This brings up a secondary issue. In the SDA church today we have an emerging group calling themselves “Progressive Seventh-day Adventists”. I am not convinced that that group is uniformly in favor of evolutionism. However I am concerned that they may see evolutionism as “their cause” to defend – as it gets to the subject of “let everyone believe whatever they choose” that is so near and dear to the Progressive agenda.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  52. Faith: “I truly don’t understand the mentality that comes down on people who are trying to stand up for the right when there are people out there doing their best to undermine faith in the Creator and in His church. Surely your efforts could be put to better use.”

    A young teenage woman baptized into a latino SDA church not far from where I live. At her baptism service she testified that her mother had told to leave her home because of her decision to be baptized. When she started to study the Bible earnestly her mother had begun disciplining her by taking away her privileges – car, insurance … and eventually delivering the ultimatum – ‘You get baptized and you find another home.’ The young woman, now taken in by church members said, “I don’t understand this. When I was living in the world, dancing, staying out at night, wild, my mother had no problems. Now that I’m drawing close to God, my mother is angry with me!”
    God bless,

    Rich

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  53. The catholic church obviously believes apostasy is a more serious sin than dancing, staying out late etc. This situation illustrates how irrational religious beliefs harm people’s relationships and friendships.

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  54. Colin:

    Rich Constantinescu: The young woman, now taken in by church members said, “I don’t understand this. When I was living in the world, dancing, staying out at night, wild, my mother had no problems. Now that I’m drawing close to God, my mother is angry with me!”

    colin campbell: The catholic church obviously believes apostasy is a more serious sin than dancing, staying out late etc.

    This illustrates how irrational man-made theories are, such as evolution or love for the world (1 John 2:15-17) over the Word of God (Exodus 20:11) and the unreasonable opposition of their adherents to those who challenge evil by word and example (2 Timothy 3:12.)
    God bless,

    Rich

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  55. All are not Israel who call themselves Israel. I have 2 problems with those who teach counter to the Bible. They are teaching our chldren these things and other people assume that what they believe is what we believe.

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  56. @BobRyan:
    Regarding tithe going to the religion department, men’s dean and women’s dean: Why is that happening?

    To reiterate an earlier post:

    “One reasons that the tithe may be applied to school purposes. Still others reason that canvassers and colporteurs should be supported from the tithe. But a great mistake is made when the tithe is drawn from the object for which it is to be used–the support of the ministers. . . .
    The tithe is the Lord’s, and those who meddle with it will be punished with the loss of their heavenly treasure unless they repent. Let the work no longer be hedged up because the tithe has been diverted into various channels other than the one to which the Lord has said it should go. Provision is to be made for these other lines of work. They are to be sustained, but not from the tithe. God has not changed; the tithe is still to be used for the support of the ministry.–9T 247-250.”

    As I understand from this one statement, tithe is not to be used to support schools in any way. So why are we doing it?

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  57. If things don’t change I would not be surprised if the earth swallowed up the University because of its rank apostasy. Committed believers should refuse to give one cent to a school that cannot follow the basic tenets of our faith. They may not get the message when we protest, but they will get it when the money dries up.

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