Comment on La Sierra schism widens by Faith.
Forgive me, but I feel I need to respond to John’s letter.
John: I am writing this as an Adventist scientist saddened that the “Educate Truth†staff are so certain about exactly when and how God went about creating the world that they are willing to risk a major witchhunt and all its attendant ego-driven evils, splitting schools and churches in the process, just to get rid of me and others who hold a different view of what it means to believe in God as Creator.
Faith: Well, John, I am sorry to have to tell you this, but you are neither an Adventist nor a true scientist. True science supports the Bible and you are setting yourself up to contradict it and true Adventists believe the Word of God implicitly. Funny how this word ‘witchhunt’ keeps getting thrown around—especially by those who are in rebellion against God and His Word. As sincere SDAs we are not engaged in any witch hunt – unless you are confessing to something else we should know about. We just want our church institutions to teach true SDA beliefs, and we have that right. And, yes, the “Educate Truth†staff, and any true Christian, can be certain we know exactly when and how God went about creating the world—God’s Word is the most certain foundation of all knowledge there is in existence…it’s a shame you and your colleagues can’t see that.
John: Do you really want to force the many professional scientists among us to choose between science and Adventist Christian faith as if they were incompatible alternatives?
Faith: In case you don’t know, you have already made this choice by believing in and promoting the evil of evolution. You cannot be an SDA and do this—Adventism and evolution are incompatible. Interesting that you use the term ‘professional scientists’ as if that is supposed to impress us. The fact is, you have not been true to your profession–because you have chosen to believe a popular lie.
John: Was Genesis really written to trump scientific investigation in the 21st century, to be an alternative source of knowledge about Geochronology or Molecular Genetics?
Faith: Isn’t it amazing that you seem to think that the Bible is less important than your ‘scientific’ investigations? How sad that mere men think they can hold their pitiful little theories higher than the everlasting Word of God. If you were interested in science at all, you would go to the Creator of all science.
John: What does it mean to believe in God as creator, to accept a certain timetable of events?
Faith: What does it mean to reject the timetable of events written in the Holy Word of God? Think about that, John.
John: If we want to know how old a rock is, can’t we just ask the rock without getting permission from the theology department?
Faith: What makes you think the theology department has the right to give you permission to ignore or disbelieve the Bible and its very plain statements regarding the 6 days of creation? That just shows me that the mind set exists there that university professors and departments are some sort of god in and of themselves. And why would you go to a rock instead of God’s record? Kind of like, why do pagans worship rocks (idols) instead of God…do you think there may be a connection?
John: If we want to know if two organisms are related, can’t we just look at their genes without having our Christian faith questioned by self-appointed guardians of doctrine who are apparently capable of only concrete,literal thinking?
Faith: So, let me understand this—you think that the rest of us lowly Adventists are too stupid to understand about genes and organisms and such? Such conceit! And ‘self-appointed guardians of doctrine’? Have you ever noticed that many of us have quoted from God’s messages through His servant Ellen White in support of the church doctrines and in direct opposition to what you are up to? Are you saying that Ellen White appointed herself a guardian of doctrine? If you are, you are truly walking on dangerous ground. And, if you think that the church members have no right to raise their voices in protest while you lead their young people down the garden path to destruction, you are sadly mistaken. It’s bad enough you have gone in this direction yourself, but woe to you in the judgment day when you have to answer for the souls you have led astray.
John: In a view accepted by many in the field of science and religion, Genesis and Geology (and Biology too, for that matter) do not offer competing views of natural history, but rather complementary views, the Bible explaining who and why and science describing the what and when.
Faith: You seem to think that the opinions and conclusions of the ‘scientific community’ trump the Word of God—now that’s sad. You are deceiving yourself if you think these are complementary views. They are such blatantly contradictory views it’s pitiful; yet you, with your ‘superior intellect’ (that you so obviously believe you possess) can’t, or won’t, see it. Ask yourself this, John, are you worshiping God or the scientific community?
John: Thus it is misguided to force people to make a false choice between them.
Faith: So then, you are calling God ‘misguided’? Because He is definitely asking you to choose between faith in His Word and faith in evolution.
John: To paraphrase Galileo, “science tells us what matter does, the Bible tells us what matters.†Whether you agree with this view of science and religion or not, it is one that enables many of us to follow where the data lead without pretending to know the answers in advance.
Faith: Forgive me, but how could you be so blind? We do know the answers in advance –God gave them to us in His Word. He stooped to give us an explanation of how we got here so that we wouldn’t have to spend lifetimes wondering. How wonderful is that? The ‘pretense’ is all on the side of evolution.
John: That is what scientists do. This is how we think and work. We can’t pretend we are doing science if only certain answers are allowed.
Faith: Really? Then are you saying that if you perform an experiment and you collect your data and draw your conclusions, that the conclusions are worthless because they rule out all other conclusions? Sorry, but this is how life works…there are only certain correct answers to certain questions…like it or not. Anyone who rejects God is, to quote scripture, a fool. Likewise anyone who rejects the answers He has so generously provided to us.
John: Can we not have scientists in our schools, or is that ruled out by “fundamental belief #6,†as you have implied? I would like to think we have not been “ruled out.â€
Faith: We can (and do, for that matter) have scientists in our schools—but only those who are genuine scientists who can understand and teach those true principles of science in harmony with the Bible—and who are sincere, committed Seventh-day Adventist educators. Look back over your life, John, in all probability you started out that way. But somewhere along the line, you got funneled off into one of Satan’s master deceptions. You, and your like-minded colleagues, need to do something about that.
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Faith Also Commented
La Sierra schism widens
Very true, Rich.
Faith
La Sierra schism widens
Bob Ryan said:
The gross equivocation that Darrell attempts above – equating the practices of 1Cor 5:6-7 and 1Tim 5:19 (public censure) to dark ages “torture†— is clearly visible to the unbiased objective reader (and so it is avoidable).
We need to take action – (as we see in 3T 265-269)
in Christ,
Bob
Rich Constantinescu said:
Darrell: “Faith, your tactics smack of Catholic Inquisition and Pharisaical persecution.â€
On the contrary she refuses to drink the maddening errors of Babylon and does not think to change times and laws. Neither is she drunk with blood, much less the blood of saints who believe and obey God’s law.
God bless,
Rich
Thank you, brothers, for your understanding and support. It is much appreciated.
Faith
La Sierra schism widens
Darrell, I think you are over-reacting a bit. No one has said to ‘kill em all and let God sort them out’. There has not been the least whiff of physical violence or mob mentality displayed on this site at all. If these professors were caught committing adultry, would we be asking for them to be fired? Of course we would. Would we expect them to be disfellowshiped? Of course we would. Well, they may not be guilty of physical adultry, but, (as my sister reminds me), they certainly have been guilty of spiritual adultery.
And, Darrell, what do you think defines any given group of people? It is the rules and standards they live by, be it Hell’s Angels or the SDA church. You are basically arguing that people who don’t agree with the official doctrines of the church and refuse to follow the defined standards should be allowed to continue representing the church. Inspiration tells us that such ones are worse than infidels because they claim to be SDAs and don’t live up to the principles of SDAs; they essentially misrepresent the church and mislead people who don’t know what we are supposed to be.
This idea that God loves us all, no matter what we do, say, or believe has been skewed to the interpretation that anything goes. Why, then, did God lead the pioneers to study the scriptures and establish the doctrines and standards of this church–sometimes even giving Ellen White visions to lead them in the right way concerning issues that couldn’t be resolved in any other way? Why, then, do angels keep records of every word, thought, and action of every human being on this earth? Do you really believe that people will go to heaven and live in harmony unless they share the same beliefs and lifestyles? (You need only look around you on this earth to know that is impossible!) God has outlined doctrines and standards for us in the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy. Do you honestly think that He called the Bible writers and Ellen White to devote their lives to record all these truths just to have them ignored?
There IS a standard for us to live by–as has been defined by God Himself. And yes, woe will come to him who doesn’t follow it. When the Lord separates the sheep from the goats, many who thought they were saved, won’t be. (Does that make God a “Catholic Inquisitor” or a “Pharisaical persecutor”?–and, no, I am not putting myself in the place of God–don’t even go there. I am only trying to uphold the standards and doctrines He has set for us.) It is a serious thing to live according to your own will and desires instead of conforming to the will of God. All are free to choose to live the way they like, but to take the name of SDA and not to strive to live up to the standards of the church is to be dishonest. To actively teach heresy is reprehensible.
By choosing to teach evolution in any way, shape, or form, these professors have disqualified themselves as instuctors in our institutions and, yes, even as church members. You don’t seem to understand (or care) that they are daily leading young people away from the truth. Frankly, I don’t understand why our people don’t consider this an urgent matter that needs immediate attention. With every day that passes, this poison spreads wider and deeper. Simply sitting back and letting it resolve itself is not an option. The past 25 or 30 years should have made that abundantly obvious. Even withdrawing support from the institutions involved is not going to work. We need action and we need it yesterday. Why should these people hold our institutions hostage to their false beliefs? Did they struggle to establish these schools? Men and women committed their whole lives to get these places up and running for the benefit of our people and these professed SDA teachers are being allowed to bring them to ruin. We all need to read Job 38:4-41:34 It begins:
“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.”
When you read this passage, it really makes you humble. God is so much greater than we could ever be. He has given us so much in the way of understanding that we could never have discovered by ourselves. What a privilege to know God…what an incalulable gift is eternal life with Him! Instead of striving to live in comformity to the world, we should be striving to live in conformity to Him and His will. We are here on this planet to get ourselves ready to live in heaven. That means we need to develop characters that will enable us to live in heaven in perfect harmony with other like-minded believers. That means we need to quit looking at the world, quit looking at self, and look to Christ, our perfect example and our essential helper.
I truly don’t understand the mentality that comes down on people who are trying to stand up for the right when there are people out there doing their best to undermine faith in the Creator and in His church. Surely your efforts could be put to better use.
Faith
Recent Comments by Faith
Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation
And you are correct, Sean, PK must consider where his influence is going–for God or against Him.
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Mr Taylor,
After reading your comment above, I must say PK isn’t the only one in that boat.I would make some comment as to how I really feel about you, but I know Sean will only delete it and you won’t benefit from my insight anyway–seeing as Sean is more concerned about other people’s feelings than you seem to be.
How you have the nerve to come to this website and call us all a bunch of morons (which is really what you are doing) is beyond me. You and your cronies are the ones drowning in error. Anyone who dares to accept man’s opinions over the Bible or SOP isn’t to be trusted to define truth for anyone.
Too straight-forward in my comment? Trust me, I have restrained myself admirably. If you only knew….
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Further to my comment on skeptism and our professors, I’ve got to tell you that I found Prof Kent to be extremely annoying in his comments on EGW. He seems to think that she is an embarrassment to the church when she speaks on Science.
Personally I find people who dis her to be the embarrassment to the church. I really don’t see how they dare to contradict and mock God’s prophet. By doing this they undermine a lot of our church’s beliefs to outsiders as well as church members. God will hold them accountable for that.
Furthermore, David’s unpublished manuscript plus other books I have read on archaeology have reported skeletons of the type that EGW mentions. Also found were artifacts such as huge iron bedsteads made for and buried with kings of huge stature.
Just because you haven’t done your research, PK, don’t jump to the conclusion the evidence isn’t there. It’s there, all right, and you make yourself look a little foolish for not knowing about it.
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
David Read said:
“Ellen White’s statements about larger antediluvian life forms are well attested with regard to many different types of flora and fauna. They’re not even controversial…
Hi David,
As you know, I took advantage of your kind offer and I read your manuscript as well as I purchased 3 of your books, one for me, one for my sisters, and one for the church library. It took me a week to finish the book, and I and my sisters are very impressed with it. My one sister calls it “one incredible book”. It has answered a lot of the questions we had on the subject of evolution vs creation science, and, yes, I believe we (you and I and my sisters) are on the same page in our beliefs. We have immensely enjoyed discussing the various aspects of the subject as we read. It makes perfect sense to us.
I still have a couple of questions–new ones will probably always keep popping up–but I would say you have covered the subject admirably. Thanks so much for this book.
I agree with Elder Wilson, this is something every Adventist should read. In my opinion it should be used as required reading for science courses. It is exactly the way I would want science courses in the universities to treat the Creation/evolution debate in the classroom. And if the professors at LSU and the other SDA institutions would do this we wouldn’t be constantly losing our young people and, for that matter, our professors, to skeptisism.
Thank God someone has the courage to publish the truth and expose error.
God Bless you, David.
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Hi Sean and Bill,
I am wondering if the difference of opinion here is due to varying definitions of the word ‘science’. As we all know there is true science and there is worldly psuedo-science.
If Bill’s understanding of ‘science’ in this case is actually worldly psuedo-science, then he is correct in not wanting any truth to be compromised with it.
From Sean’s post, I believe he is referring to true science, which is definitely part of our beliefs on origins and is well supported by the Bible and SOP, as Sean admirably demonstrated.
Not having seen the exhibit myself, I cannot comment on whether or not they are mixing psuedo-science into it. (Perhaps a few of you posters out there can see the exhibit and report back to us.) Knowing the general philosophy of SAU, I would be surprised if they did.
Their goal is “to provide scientific evidence that substantiates the Bible’s account of creation.” Sounds good to me.
They also say: “Religion and science don’t need to be at odds.” And that is true when you are referring to true science, which I believe they are.
However, I do understand Bill’s reaction in that these days when people use the word ‘science’ without qualification it so often means evolutionary pseudoscience, that we tend to be suspicious.
I think, Bill, that in this case we don’t need to worry. I believe SAU’s heart is in the right place and I am so glad that at least one of our institutions is willing to stand up and be counted on the side of Creation, even though they will probably draw much criticism from the ‘scientific’ community as well as from the TEs in their own church.
God bless them for their fidelity to Him. And may God strengthen them to meet the onslaught that is most likely to follow, is my prayer for them.
