Comment on An appeal to our leadership by Jonathan Smith.
Eric,
I am not in any discussion about other worlds. I am talking about earth and the heavens mentioned in Genesis 1.
Hebrews 11:3 tells us – which you apparently cannot see – that whatever we see came from nothing. You cannot then say there was an earth without form and a deep and THEN God started His creation.
God started His creation FROM NOTHING. I defy you to prove that God created an earth and some deep and then left it for some indeterminately long period of time and THEN created the heavens and the earth in SIX days.
That is distorting the Scripture. God created the world approximately 6,000 years ago (I am not speaking of the entire universe in this time frame) from nothing. So don’t you add something before His creation. Please do not, as you have been trying, to get me saying something I have never said.
The Proverbs text, if you have a concordance, show the same Hebrew words for earth, deep or depths, as Genesis 1.
That Proverbs text, speaking about Christ, is declaring that Christ pre-existed everything. Sure the text can be taken back umpteen trillions of years ago. But you miss the point. There is a reference to the creation of THIS EARTH. Please look again.
Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was .
Prov 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Prov 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Prov 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Prov 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Prov 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
This passage is a very useful passage on the creation of the earth, as it tells what existed before creation week.
The Hebrew word for depths (Prov 8:24) from Strong’s concordance; code H8415 is the same Hebrew word for deep in Gen 1:2.
teh-home’, teh-home’
(Usually feminine) from H1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water supply): – deep (place), depth. Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
The Hebrew word for earth in Gen 1:1, 2, 10 H776 is the same in Prov 8:23, 26
‘erets or eh’-rets
From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): – X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.
Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
What is Proverbs 8:23-29 saying?
There was a time when there was NO earth, NO depths (deep), NO fountains of water. That is the point.
Now I challenge you to find anywhere in the Bible where any depths or deep or formless, void earth existed before creation week.
Your problem is that you are trying to dishonestly start creation week in Gen 1:3. You want to impose a land mass and water that God depended on or put down before (for what purpose????)
You want to confine Gen 1:1 to a summary alone. That is selective and dishonest interpretation.
Gen 1:1 tells the start of creation week.
Action 1. Create an earth without form and void and immersed in a deep (waters).
Action 2. Call for light
Action 3. Vertically divide the waters by the firmament (heavens)
Action 4. Horizontally divide the waters by the land
And so on
The Work of Creation
The work of creation can never be explained by science. What science can explain the mystery of life? {8T 258.3}
The theory that God did not create matter when He brought the world into existence is without foundation. In the formation of our world, God was not indebted to pre-existing matter. On the contrary, all things, material or spiritual, stood up before the Lord Jehovah at His voice and were created for His own purpose. The heavens and all the host of them, the earth and all things therein, are not only the work of His hand; they came into existence by the breath of His mouth. {8T 258.4}
“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” Hebrews 11:3.
“By the word of the Lord were the heavens made;
And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. . . .
He spake, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.”
Psalm 33:6-9. {8T 259.1}
Jonathan Smith Also Commented
An appeal to our leadership
Quite frankly, we do not know what God created beyond our solar system 6,000 years ago.
In all my discussion I am limiting myself to our solar system. That is what we see more than anything else. These bodies are included in Genesis 1 in the creation.
The worlds that are seen came from nothing. That is good enough for me.
I agree with you, as I have pointed out before, that all of God’s creation has come from nothingness. However, I do not see any dates given in scripture for this. Heb. 11:3 is in the universal context. You wish to apply it to our global context. Can you, who are advocating “proper exegesis†to me, support this?
Sure. Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
The writer of Hebrews was talking of what we see. Where else do we see more clearly than this earth?
An appeal to our leadership
Erik,
I am not just changing my tune. Go to this post and see what I said:
http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/an-appeal-to-our-leadership/comment-page-3/#comment-10960
Note that the purpose behind the post must be considered. The first post was not to debate when or what but was just to point out useful things to consider in your analysis. But now you are stretching things beyond Scripture, so I am attempting to refute your strange conclusions.
Also, go to this one too:
Erik,
Gen 1:1 is a summary of the creation, but it is not ONLY that.
There must be a start too, and that you are overlooking. So Gen 1:1 is also the start.
1) God created the heavens and the earth. Observe: Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
2) In this day the foundations of the earth were made and then (~simultaneously) the depths (or deep) were created. This is possibly talking about waters.
Why I say is is because Heb 11:3 is telling us the things we see were not formed from things that appeared (or existed). God does not need pre-existing material to create.
Gen 1:1 is a statement that is a summary, a conclusion and a beginning. It is simple.
At no point in my arguments am I ever trying to discuss other parts of God’s creation – some obviously pre-existed our heavens and earth.
At no point am I ascribing a beginning to God (Father, Son, Spirit). The in the beginning in Gen 1:1 relate to OUR world.
No amount of dancing, blustering, twisting and turning can defeat two fundamental points that are very clear.
1) God created our worlds from nothing.
2) Proverbs 8:23-29 tell us that at some time when there was NO earth, there was NO deep, there was NO waters, nothing (in relation to our world).
Therefore, honesty and proper exegesis requires us to accept that in the beginning of our creation there was NOTHING.
The Holy Spirit brooding upon the face of the waters (vs 2) AFTER God placed it – waters – there (vs 1). Remember, 2 comes AFTER 1.
By the way, Ellen White used Psalm 104 in PP as creation text. Note the following:
Psalms 104:5-6 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Sister White said that when the earth was created there were mountains – not like after the flood – but were still there.
“By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.” “For He spake, and it was;” “He commanded, and it stood fast.” Psalm 33:6, 9. He “laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever.” Psalm 104:5. {PP 44.1}
As the earth came forth from the hand of its Maker, it was exceedingly beautiful. Its surface was diversified with mountains, hills, and plains, interspersed with noble rivers and lovely lakes; but the hills and mountains were not abrupt and rugged, abounding in terrific steeps and frightful chasms, as they now do; the sharp, ragged edges of earth’s rocky framework were buried beneath the fruitful soil, which everywhere produced a luxuriant growth of verdure. There were no loathsome swamps or barren deserts. Graceful shrubs and delicate flowers greeted the eye at every turn. The heights were crowned with trees more majestic than any that now exist. The air, untainted by foul miasma, was clear and healthful. The entire landscape outvied in beauty the decorated grounds of the proudest palace. The angelic host viewed the scene with delight, and rejoiced at the wonderful works of God. {PP 44.2}
I will close with this thought. None of us was there and we should not be too presumptuous about it, either. All we should do is to compare Scripture with Scripture and try not to force in the Scripture what is not written.
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Recent Comments by Jonathan Smith
LSU statement regarding resignations and Bradley’s email
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Eccl 12:13-14
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
There are some who object to privately recorded conversations being used in this manner (like the Spectrum blog) but could it be that God is causing judgment on unacceptable behaviour?
[6/17/11 UPDATE] Two administrators, one biology professor, and one board member resign
Marilyn Bauer:
I stand in support of Educate Truth and its efforts to maintain integrity on an SDA campus of higher education. “Once to every man and nation (university) comes the moment to decide, in the strife of truth and falsehood, for the good or evil side.â€Our church history shows that we have had to watch church institutions (Battle Creek San and Hospital) leave the sisterhood of institutions due to false teachings by its leadership. We should not be surprised if the cost of fidelity to truth has a price. Politically, we know that freedom has a price. Spiritually, fidelity to truth has a price.I regret that Shane is coming under attack for having the courage to keep the light burning for doctrinal truth in Adventist education. We have long purported the idea of integration of faith and learning. Why would we want to excuse a science department who moves away from the “faith†aspect of its discipline?
All those who decide to live a Biblically faithful life shall suffer persecution.
[6/17/11 UPDATE] Two administrators, one biology professor, and one board member resign
Casey,
You ought to grow up. I don’t see how Educate Truth can cause anybody to be fired. After all, it does not pay salaries and it is not a decision maker at all. Educate Truth has only been a commentator.
If the university Chair said the issues with the bio dept are not the factors, then you should take up your beef with the chair and indeed ask him for the explanations. It is rather small of you to attack Hilde and his blog at a time like this.
If at anytime in the future there is evidence (not speculation) to support your claim, THEN you may rant and rail. Yet, you apparently have no idea what it means to be faithful to the Bible and you either accept evolution as fact or saw no conflict with what the professors taught.
If at all you consider yourself a Christian, I hope you recognise that faithfulness to Bible truths is more important than worldly honour and all will have to give an account for their actions later. I think Educate Truth has tried to be faithful to the Bible contrary to some professed Christians.
Former LSU student letter reveals professor’s agenda
Where men refused to deal with the apostates, those in charge will be accounted as guilty.
In the great reckoning to come they will pay.
I am glad this lady had the courage to speak and write. The evidence is plain for all to see.
