Michigan Conference takes substantial action in LSU conflict

The following is an excerpt from a document voted by the Michigan Conference Executive Committee May 25, 2010. The document was emailed to Educate Truth by two employees of the Michigan Conference (bold emphasis added):

Elder Gallimore

Whereas, the Adventist Review (in the article by Mark Kellner in April 15, 2010) has now publicly addressed the issue of evolution being taught at and supported by La Sierra University; and, whereas their board of trustees and constituency have collectively been unwilling to rectify this vital spiritual issue, the Michigan Conference Executive Committee has voted the following actions:

1. Effective June 1, 2010 the Michigan Conference has removed La Sierra University from its list of Adventist Colleges and Universities which qualify for employee subsidy. This means that no employee may expect tuition support if they have a dependent attending La Sierra.

2. With sorrow we feel it is our spiritual responsibility to notify Michigan Conference members that we do not believe that La Sierra can currently be trusted to be supportive of Seventh-day Adventist spiritual values especially in reference to faith in the biblical understanding of creation, and thus the authority of Scripture in the life and practice of the believer.

3. Resolved: To encourage each Seventh-day Adventist college and university to continue to strengthen the principles of biblical authority and faith. In support of these principles we urge continued development of educational strategies and faculties which would move these institutions to becoming centers of excellence in promoting, cultivating and defending creation science. We define creation science in the context of the recent creation week of seven ordinary, literal, historical, consecutive, contiguous twenty-four hour days of divine creation and rest as described in Genesis.

4. Furthermore: We request that the 2010 General Conference session vote a resolution affirming number 3 above, with the direction of bringing to the following GC session a statement that would serve to strengthen our fundamental belief number six. Hence, our Creation doctrine would clearly articulate our biblical view of “a literal, recent, six-day Creation,” in which “the seven days of the Creation account were literal 24-hour days forming a week identical in time to what we now experience as a week,” as the statement affirmed by the General Conference Executive Committee in October 2004 noted.

(Bold emphasis added)

Mcec Action Voted May 25, 2010

If you as a Michigan Conference of Seventh-day Adventist member wish to make a comment to the Michigan Conference about the above action, send an email with your comments to comments@misda.org.

See Evolution in Education? by Jay Gallimore

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198 thoughts on “Michigan Conference takes substantial action in LSU conflict

  1. @Geanna Dane:

    FB #14 is entitled UNITY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. When one conference penalizes ITS OWN membership because of a disagreement with another conference, exactly how does that support FB #14? How does that support unity in the body of Christ. The answer is clear as a whistle: IT DOES NOT. And YOU PEOPLE KNOW IT.

    How can two walk together unless they be agreed? – Amos 3:3

    There is no unity between people or organizations if one party is undermining the fundamental goals and ideals of the other. LSU has been undermining the pillars of the SDA faith for decades now. They have been warned to correct this problem for as many years by many people. I myself have been involved with this effort for over 5 years now. It is because LSU did not respond to address this issue in any substantive manner that I decided to bring this issue public over a year ago. Still nothing has changed. LSU is obstinate in its defiance of the wishes of the Church body. At some point there can no longer be any “unity” with those who are deliberately obstinate against any effort or suggestion that would work toward unity.

    Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? – 2 Corinthians 6:14

    My use of this text is not to suggest that LSU isn’t promoting any sort of belief in God. LSU does promote belief in some sort of God – just not the SDA view of God or His use of Creative Power. LSU also does not support the SDA view on the proper method(s) of biblical interpretation as a basis for key doctrinal positions. Therefore, it is the obligation of the SDA Church, as a body, to separate itself from those who deliberately and obstinately set out to destroy the very bedrock pillars of the Church as currently recognized as “present truth” by the Church as a body.

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com

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  2. @D. Znack:

    Well, well – It seems we’re really in those last of days. Who can be surprised, knowing the times we live in, plus having the Spirit of Prophecy already telling us that even whole conferences will be lost?

    Mrs. White never says that whole conferences will be lost. This is a common reference, but it is mistakenly attributed to Mrs. White.

    The report that Mrs. White predicted the apostasy of entire Seventh-day Adventist churches and conferences is without support. See the statement concerning “The Shaking” in Early Writings, pages 269-273; and Testimonies for the Church, vol. 8, p. 41, for these words: “Company after company from the Lord’s army joined the foe and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God.”

    http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/faq-mist.html

    This doesn’t mean that it won’t happen. It just means that Mrs. White did not predict it. What she did say is a bit more hopeful:

    “The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out—the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.” —Selected Messages, book 2, p. 380.

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com

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  3. Shane and Sean and others

    With your reasoning the entire North American Division should lose all support from the GC for undermining the church’s official position on women’s ordination. How many of its conferences have employed women as pastors?

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  4. @Geanna Dane:

    FB #14 is entitled UNITY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. When one conference penalizes ITS OWN membership because of a disagreement with another conference, exactly how does that support FB #14? How does that support unity in the body of Christ. The answer is clear as a whistle: IT DOES NOT.

    Some details that tend to eliminate that argument.

    1. When Battle Creek was being condemned for it’s actions and its support of Kellogg’s “Living Temple” – it was not considered “violation of unity” to reprove wrong. And it never has been.

    If Kellogg had tried a “he who does not gather with me – scatters” argument it would have failed then – just like that point fails now as a way to defend evolutionism at LSU.

    2. This is not a case of one local conference at odds with another local conference. The university in question is not owned or managed by any local conference. It is owned by the Pacific Union – and even at that – not all officers of the Pacific Union are voting members of the board of directors for LSU. It is more precisely a complaint about LSU itself – and also about the administrators that are assigned the job of managing it – by extension.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  5. Shane and Sean and othersWith your reasoning the entire North American Division should lose all support from the GC for undermining the church’s official position on women’s ordination. How many of its conferences have employed women as pastors?  (Quote)

    This is the “you are not allowed to stop problem-A until you stop problem-B because I like problem-A” argument. It makes no sense because it only leads to those who like problem-B raising the counter equivalent agument saying “you cannot stop problem-B until you stop problem-A” argument.

    The argument is only intended to paralyze the ability to take corrective action.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  6. @Geanna Dane:

    Shane and Sean and others

    With your reasoning the entire North American Division should lose all support from the GC for undermining the church’s official position on women’s ordination. How many of its conferences have employed women as pastors?

    Women’s ordination, however important a concept it may be for many people (with whom I personally sympathize), is evidently not viewed by the SDA Church, as a body, as a fundamental doctrinal issue or pillar of the SDA faith. Note that there is no mention of it in the Church’s 28 “Fundamental Beliefs”.

    http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

    It seems, rather, to be viewed by the GC as more of a cultural or social issue where the Church is trying to deal with very different cultures within the world-wide community of believers.

    In other words, there seems to be wider latitude in agreement and action over non-doctrinal issues that are not foundational to the SDA faith…

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com

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  7. In a most grand fashion, Sean Pitman dulty noted: “Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? – 2 Corinthians 6:14”

    That is why the Church’s hospitals must no longer accept Medicare and other government payouts. The universities must no longer accept federal student aid, federal or state grant money in any form, or even money from pharmaceutical and other private companies to conduct life-saving biomedical research. ADRA must dicontinue partnering with Red Cross and all other non-SDA relief agencies. Shane Hilde should resign his position as a schoolteacher at a public school. Sean Pitman must resign from his position so that he is no longer working in a Catholic hospital (for God’s sake). Bob Ryan should immediately discontinue his voluminous and frequent postings tot he Baptist Board. Not one of these organizations promotes the SDA view of God or His use of Creative Power.

    (Of course one can defend essentially any position through selective quoteing of the Bible or E. G. White. If anything, the Bible passage applies more so to these other unholy affiliations than to the Adventist church’s relationship with its own colleges and universities.)

    Rather than letting the church take care of its own business you people are placing yourselves above the church. You have shown extreme contempt and disrespect for church leadership. Rather than bash it and undermine it, you guys need to submit to the authority of the Church as God has established it- through its elected leadership. YOU ARE AS GUILTY AS ANYONE ELSE FOR UNDERMINING THE CHURCH’S AUTHORITY AND UNITY…AND YOU KNOW IT.

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  8. I agree that the emphasis should be on biblical creation. But our students sometimes find themselves attending non-adventist graduate schools to read science. Is there anything wrong teaching them about EVOLUTION” but emphasize Biblical Creation and then ask teachers and students to take stand for Biblical Creation in their teachings and writings. Are we not going to teach about sin because sin is not one of our values?. By allowing our teachers to teach evolution and students to learn about evolution, they will be able to speak eloquently and convincingly the question is raised by non-adventists. The school will be wrong if it teaches that the world came through evolution but there is notthing wrong to create the awareness about Satan’s tricks. Lack of knowledge can lead to death. Also, if we decide not teach our people about Satan’s tricks, Satan will find a way of teaching them by emphasizing what it(Satan) believes.  (Quote)

    I think you misunderstand the situation @ LSU.

    LSU biology professors have been teaching that evolution is the best & only viable explanation for the origin and existence of the world, and denying the creation account of Genesis 1 & 2. They have been very insistent about this and was propagating their “belief” to our children in that school. And the school administrators are protecting them. This is the root of the problem.

    Nobody here has any issue with our schools introducing the evolutionary theory to our students as a “theory” and also providing them with the biblical worldview of the special creation that convincingly counter this absurd kooky theory of evolution.

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  9. @Geanna

    FB #14 is entitled UNITY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.

    “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” 2 Corinthians 6:14

    When one conference penalizes ITS OWN membership

    “Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.” Hebrews 12:11

    because of a disagreement with another conference,

    MCEC is against LSU and not the Pacific Union conference or even the Pacific Union. LSU isn’t owned by the PUC. If there was an unchecked initiative at Andrews University within Michigan to teach reincarnation the same resolution would follow, I am positive, against that school and much sooner than it has taken to deal with this problem.

    exactly how does that support FB #14? How does that support unity in the body of Christ. The answer is clear as a whistle:

    It all depends on who is holding the whistle. Didn’t you know the lymphatic system is a part of the body which defends against unhealthful elements and thus promotes unity by facilitating some “combat?” We are still living on sinful planet earth and there are dangers to be met from both devils and man. (Eph. 6:11, 12; Matthew 7:15)

    IT DOES NOT. And YOU PEOPLE KNOW IT.

    I notice you neglect to post the belief and prove your point. That is because a simple reading of it shatters all your pretensions. We will see it promotes unity in the Scriptures and not wild imaginative philosophy and an “all paths lead to the mountaintop” false-unity.

    “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” (Matthew 12:30)

    Jesus warned us this departure from truth would happen by the first angel’s message (Rev. 14:7) and the testimony of Jesus. His sheep will hear this message.

    It’s laughable that the Michigan Conference has chosen to punish its very own people who have absolutely nothing to do with this controversy. How sweet and noble and thoughtful of them!

    “If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?” 1 Cor. 12:15

    With this decision are other conferences now likely to remove competing institutions from their subsidy policies?

    SDA conferences do not own SDA universities. Most SDA universities are owned by SDA unions. However, Andrews University in Michigan is SDA General Conference run, not even Lake Union run, so this suggestion is without merit.
    God bless,

    Rich

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  10. Some years ago, I read a short exposition on unity & division written by A.W. Tozer, which helped me to see through the false premise of the so-called “unity” argument. I’d recommend it to all:

    ——————————

    DIVISIONS ARE NOT ALWAYS BAD

    When to unite and when to divide, that is the question, and a right answer requires the wisdom of a Solomon.

    Some settle the problem by rule of thumb: All union is good and all division bad. It’s that easy. But obviously this effortless way of dealing with the matter ignores the lessons of history and overlooks some of the deep spiritual laws by which men live.

    If good men were all for union and bad men for division, or vice versa, that would simplify things for us. Or if it could be shown that God always unites and the devil always divides it would be easy to find our way around in this confused and confusing world. But that is not how things are.

    To divide what should be divided and unite what should be united is the part of wisdom. Unions of dissimilar elements is never good even where it is possible, nor is the arbitrary division of elements that are alike; and this is as certainly true of things moral and religious as of things political or scientific.

    The first divider was God who at the creation divided the light from the darkness. This division set the direction for all God’s dealings in nature and in grace. Light and darkness are incompatible; to try to have both in the same place at once is to try the impossible and end by havng neither the one nor the other, but dimness rather, and obscurity.

    In the world of men there are at present scarcely any sharp outlines. The race is fallen. Sin has brought confusion. The wheat grows with the tares, the sheep and the goats coexist, the farms of the just and the unjust lie side by side in the landscape, the mission is next door to the saloon.

    But things will not always be so. The hour is coming when the sheep with be divided from the goats and the tares separated from the wheat. God will again divide the light from the darkness and all things will run to their kind. Tares will go into the fire with tares and wheat into the garner with wheat. The dimness will lift like a fog and all outlines will appear. Hell will be seen to be hell all the way through, and heaven revealed as the one home of all who bear the nature of the one God.

    For that time we with patience wait. In the meanwhile for each of us, and for the church wherever she appears in human society, the constantly recurring question must be: What shall we unite with and from what shall we separate? The question of coexistence does not enter here, but the question of union and fellowship does. The wheat grows in the same field with the tares, but shall the two cross-polinate? The sheep graze near the goats, but shall they seek to interbreed? The unjust and the just enjoy the same rain and sunshine, but shall they forget their deep moral differences and intermarry?

    To these questions the popular answer is yes. Union for union’s sake, and men shall be brothers be for a’ that. Unity is so devoutly to be desired that no price is too high to pay for it and nothing is important enough to keep us apart. Truth is slain to provide a feast to celebrate the marriage of heaven and hell, and all to support a concept of unity which has no basis in the Word of God.

    The Spirit-illuminated church will have none of this. In a fallen world like ours unity is no treasure to be purchased at the price of compromise. Loyalty to God, faithfulness and truth and the preservation of a good conscience are jewels more precious than gold of Ophir or diamonds from the mine. For these jewels men have suffered the loss of property, imprisonment and even death; for them, even in recent times, behind the various curtains, followers of Christ have paid the last full measure of devotion and quietly died, unknown to and unsung by the great world, but known to God and dear to His Father heart.

    In the day that shall declare the secrets of all souls these shall come forth to receive the deeds done in the body. Surely such as these are wiser philosophers than the religious camp followers of meaningless unity who have not the courage to stand against the vogues and who bleat for brotherhood only because it happens to be for the time popular.

    “Divide and conquer” is the cynical slogan of Machiavellian political leaders, but Satan knows how to unite and conquer. To bring a nation to its knees the aspiring dictator must unite it. By repeated appeals to national pride or to the need to avenge some past or present wrong the demagogue succeeds in uniting the populace behind him. It is easy after that to take control of the military and to beat the legislature into submission. Then follows almost perfect unity indeed, but it is the unity of the stockyards and the concentration camp. We have seen this happen several times in this century, and the world will see it at least once more when the nations of the earth are united under Antichrist.

    When confused sheep start over a cliff the individual sheep can save himself only be separating from the flock. Perfect unity at such a time can only mean total destruction for all. The wise sheep to save his own hide disaffiliates.

    Power lies in the union of things similar and the division of things dissimilar. Maybe what we need in religious circles today is not more union but some wise and courageous division. Everyone desires peace but it could be that revival will follow the sword.

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  11. As the issues have been clearly presented and understood, it is noteworthy that decided action is being taken – and we thank God for that.

    Thank you too, Michigan Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

    The issue here is that our very identity and mission are being attacked and undermined. Seventh-day Adventists are the ones who are entrusted with the final message to be given to our world, “Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters” (Revelation 14:7).

    Decidedly, knowing Who God is carries an importance of eternal impact. Jesus stated this in John 17:3.

    Our young people must definitely be protected from any subversively rebellious attitude towards God, His Word, and His Church. And they must positively be guarded from teachings that contradict the Bible.

    I hope Administration at La Sierra awakens to their responsibility before it is too late.

    Thank you, Educate Truth for having the courage to make the issues known. Thank you, Review and Herald for reporting on this also. Thank you, again, Michigan Conference for not looking the other way but for taking concrete steps to deal with this. And I thank God that He’s still in control and that He is coming soon.

    Olga Sanchez

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  12. Thank you Rich and others for making your position explicitly clear. You have eloquently argued for division and fractionation within the church at the expense of unity. And you have artfully used the Bible, Ellen White, and your interpretation of FB #14 as supportive of dividing the church. Well done!

    Or…oh no…do I hear double-speak acoming?

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  13. Funny that the one charge no one has answered to is the DELIBERATE tactic used here to PUBLICLY HUMILIATE, SHAME AND DENIGRATE institutions and individuals, who are named over and over, in an effort to blatantly subvert and undermine the divinely appointed (elected) church leadership. This website is nothing less than this; a propaganda campaign intended to SMEAR and CAUSE HARM to others. Is this not your intent? Hello?!

    Again, YOU PEOPLE ARE BLATANTLY AND ENTHUSIASTICALLY UNDERMINING THE CHURCH’S AUTHORITY AND UNITY.

    Shane, you asked what alternatives there are. Obviously you went ahead with your own solution without waiting for the elected church leadership to solve the problem. In doing so you and your cohorts here have declared yourselves the de facto church leadership. We now bow down to you (and anyone else in the future who eagerly employs public deridement of others).

    Enjoy your victory with smugness and righteousness. I quit. No more from me.

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  14. I am amazed continually how the Spirit of Prophecy consistently redirects us to the love of God, His faithfulness, His steadfastness, and our need to study His word. Here is another tid-bit from Sister White’s book, Maranatha, p. 157…food for thought this morning as you read through all the blog comments on this topic.

    “Satan is a cunning worker, and he will bring in subtle fallacies to darken and confuse the mind and root out the doctrines of salvation. THOSE WHO DO NOT ACCEPT THE WORD OF GOD JUST AS IT READ, WILL BE SNARED BY HIS TRAP.

    Evil angels are upon our track every moment. By departing from the plain precepts and commandments of God, and giving heed to fables, the minds of many are preparing to receive these lying wonders [of Satan] . We must all now seek to arm ourselves for the contest in which we [now] engage. Faith in God’s word, prayerfully studied and practically applied, will be our shield from Satan’s power and will bring us off conquerors through the blood of Christ.

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  15. @Geanna Dane:

    Rather than letting the church take care of its own business you people are placing yourselves above the church. You have shown extreme contempt and disrespect for church leadership. Rather than bash it and undermine it, you guys need to submit to the authority of the Church as God has established it- through its elected leadership. YOU ARE AS GUILTY AS ANYONE ELSE FOR UNDERMINING THE CHURCH’S AUTHORITY AND UNITY…AND YOU KNOW IT.

    How consistent the tactic of using “projection” by those that happen to be promoting error.

    Think about this for a minute – isn’t that statement above exactly the problem with the LSU biology and religion department adopting their own rogue all-for-evolutionism agenda no matter what the decision of the Adventist denomination?

    I am also amazed at how often that tactic is used because it places the heart of the problem “in plain sight”.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  16. I support the action taken by the Michigan Conference.

    However, I am puzzled at the significant mistakes made in the titles of those copied at the end: Elder Bediako is GC Secretary and Elder Lemon is GC Treasurer.

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  17. Geraty wrote a short piece about the Michigan Conference etc. In the article he plainly rejects the Seventh-day Adventist Church’s position on creation. He says he affirms Scripture, but he obviously doesn’t endorse the church’s understanding of it. Below is an excerpt from his article.

    I believe the tea party movement and radical right-wing politics is affecting our beloved church, not only in belief but in tactics that have no place among Christians. If you care about Truth, I suggest you dig a bit deeper than either Shane Hilde or the Michigan Conference have done.

    Christ tells us they will know us by our love, not by our commitment to a seven literal historical, consecutive, contiguous 24-hour day week of creation 6,000 years ago which is NOT in Genesis no matter how much the fundamentalist wing of the church would like to see it there.

    Fundamental Belief No. 6 uses Biblical language to which we can all agree; once you start interpreting it according to anyone’s preference you begin to cut out members who have a different interpretation. I wholeheartedly affirm Scripture, but NOT the extra-Biblical interpretation of the Michigan Conference. Since when is salvation by correct knowledge anyway?

    http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/05/27/there_more_la_sierra_story

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  18. Rich and Justin have explained true unity very well. Sam Pipim also has explained this in his books. The false “unity” promoted by Satan and some liberals will ultimately destroy the SDA Church. True unity under God’s Law and Truth is the only way to have a unified church.

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  19. Dear Dr. Stone,I think you may have confused me with someone else.I don’t think I ever posted that statement on this (or any other) blog.I’ve kept copies of everything I have posted so as to be sure I don’t repeat myself too often! At 86 you have tendency to forget what you’ve done, you know.) I have no idea who did post it but I am reasonably sure it wasn’t me.  

    Sorrr Lydian, I may have mixed up something. We’ve got a lot going on here, and sometimes I lose track of what’s going on. But, praise the Lord we have gotten some people “riled up” and prepared to take some action!

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  20. Larry Geraty says;
    “Christ tells us they will know us by our love, not by our commitment to a seven literal historical, consecutive, contiguous 24-hour day week of creation 6,000 years ago which is NOT in Genesis no matter how much the fundamentalist wing of the church would like to see it there”.

    Hello Professor Geraty, you should have also quoted the others admonitions of CHRIST. Yes we should love others but that does not negate our obligation to obey CHRIST and keep his commandments. After all, he says, in Matthew 5: 18 “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” and in Matthew 7: 21-23, Jesus says, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”. The Psalmist tells us that GOD has exalted his word above his name. The LORD says he changest not and will not retract anything that comes out of his mouth, and the according to Exodus chapter 20, he spoke all the commandments, then wrote the law and handed the two tablets of stone to his Prophet Moses. Therefore loving others and throwing away his explicit command to obey him and keep his law will not save us. He says in John 14: 15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”, that includes the Sabbath commandment, a literal 24-hour day. If you reject “a seven literal historical, consecutive, contiguous 24-hour day week of creation 6,000 years ago”, which is affirmed by the Spirit of Prophecy, then why do you call yourself a Seventh-Day Adventist?.

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  21. @Sean Pitman:
    “According to this logic, an SDA Conference would have to support any family with their tuition bills regardless of where they decided to send their children – even to non-SDA schools. That logic simply doesn’t follow. The SDA Church should be all about supporting its own – those who really do promote the Pillars of the SDA Faith.”

    Actually, no, by that logic that would not be the case. Your argument is ridiculous, by no means does that imply that we would have to support families with their tuition bills outside of an SDA institution. This is a totally different matter because LaSierra IS an Adventist institution. It’s not just any other instituion of higher learning. Is it fair to take those opportunities away because the Michigan Conference decides that all of a sudden LaSierra University is no longer an Adventist instituion? I think not, especially when the majority of the people affiliated with the institution have no say in the matter. Your argument implies that LaSierra is no longer an Adventist institution, last I checked it still was even though the Michigan Conference is attacking it. So with all due respect, sir, the logic does follow.

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  22. Larry Geraty says;
    “Christ tells us they will know us by our love, not by our commitment to a seven literal historical, consecutive, contiguous 24-hour day week of creation 6,000 years ago which is NOT in Genesis no matter how much the fundamentalist wing of the church would like to see it there”.Hello Professor Geraty, you should have also quoted the others admonitions of CHRIST. Yes we should love others but that does not negate our obligation to obey CHRIST and keep his commandments. After all, he says, in Matthew 5: 18 “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” and in Matthew 7: 21-23, Jesus says, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”. The Psalmist tells us that GOD has exalted his word above his name. The LORD says he changest not and will not retract anything that comes out of his mouth, and the according to Exodus chapter 20, he spoke all the commandments, then wrote the law and handed the two tablets of stone to his Prophet Moses. Therefore loving others and throwing away his explicit command to obey him and keep his law will not save us. He says in John 14: 15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”, that includes the Sabbath commandment, a literal 24-hour day. If you reject “a seven literal historical, consecutive, contiguous 24-hour day week of creation 6,000 years ago”, which is affirmed by the Spirit of Prophecy, then why do you call yourself a Seventh-Day Adventist?.  

    Michael, You may not live out here in California, but Geraty is not alone is his denial of biblical truth. In fact, he has a lot of “buddies” many of which are in positions of “leadership” who believe similarly to him. Why do they call themselves a Seventh-day Adventist? I have no idea!

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  23. I’m continually amazed that a human’s thoughts and opinions (EG White) are held to the same standard as the Holy Bible. I’m thankful that I love God and He loves me and that I obey His will and commandments to my fullest understanding. Simple concept, but it’s comforting to know when all this scripture slinging, name calling and finger pointing is going on amongst human sinners like myself.

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  24. @Aaron:

    Actually, no, by that logic that would not be the case. Your argument is ridiculous, by no means does that imply that we would have to support families with their tuition bills outside of an SDA institution. This is a totally different matter because LaSierra IS an Adventist institution.

    I guess that’s a matter of opinion. I personally fail to see how any school that goes around attacking fundamental pillars of the SDA faith can really call itself “SDA” with a straigth face. It’s like pretending to be something that you’re really not – very much like a wolf in sheeps clothing which enables the wolf to more easily steal away the sheep…

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com

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  25. @Wendy:

    Simple concept, but it’s comforting to know when all this scripture slinging, name calling and finger pointing is going on amongst human sinners like myself.

    Just because we are all desperate sinners, and we all are, does not mean that we have to let the Church organization fall into chaos – that we cannot stand for truth while admitting that we all need help to truly live up to the truth that we know…

    Sean Pitman
    http://www.DetectingDesign.com

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  26. Enjoy your victory with smugness and righteousness. I quit. No more from me.  

    Having never said anything positive, I say good bye enjoy the summer and don’t get sunburned.

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  27. Oh, so instead of going through the proper channels like the General Conference to do this, MC chooses to go it alone, against the Adventist Consensus. Awesome.

    Perhaps they will also like to cut off employee subsidies to my Academy, since one of our teachers, although not science teacher openly promotes evolution. And one of our bible teachers has openly told my class that the creation story does not have to be taken literally when we brought up this whole controversy in class.

    Of course, that would hurt my friend who lives in the dorm, while his dad works for MC. But hey, MC evidently doesn’t care about the human aspect at all, just pushing their viewpoint on everyone.

    And by the way, this type of thing is the reason why I will not state my identity or that of my school. Because some dumb action, like this one, could come up against MY school. not cool. not at all.

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  28. Quote from one of my teachers: (not exact wording)

    Creation is, really, the most ridiculous thing I could ever think of. Don’t tell the principal I said this, but, whatever [the science teacher] tells you, it really is not scientifically credible, and I am certified to teach the classes he[science teacher] does, but I’m not alone, many other Adventist scientists believe in evolution, openly or secretly because some of the radicals will come and try to crucify them.

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  29. I guess that’s a matter of opinion. I personally fail to see how any school that goes arount attacking fundamental pillars of the SDA faith can really call itself “SDA” with a straigth face. It’s like pretending to be something that you’re really not – very much like a wolf in sheeps clothing which enables the wolf to more easily steal away the sheep…

    I’m sorry but that response is not good enough. What the Michigan Conference is doing is punishing everyone associated with LaSierra even though they may have nothing to do with, or even support what is being taught there. This action by the Michigan Conference does not solve anything and it hurts individuals unnecessarily. There has to be a better response than what has been taken. If one department and a few individuals can doom an entire institution then we are in trouble.

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  30. It would seem that many responding to this article are under the opinion that the SDA church has discovered absolute truth. With quotations regarding how ‘there is nothing new under the sun’ and ‘not one tiddle of the scripture will change’ (these are not exact quotations, but I believe I have expressed the heart of their argument) one must assume that we have mastered the laws of our solar system and have also come to an absolutely definitive interpretation of the Bible. I was unaware of either of these being the case. Why do we as SDA member’s have schools? Why do we have these school separated into various departments? It appears as if we have forgotten the dual role of schools. One is to instruct its students in truth. The other is to progress truth. Why do universities have professors teach classes and work to publish new material? It is because part of the academic arena is to ensure that we are teaching truth. We have science departments and religion departments. Part of each of these departments roles is to learn from one another. Can science and faith coexist? I would certainly hope so. I believe in a systematic, organized, and most importantly, a law governed universe.

    But where is the forum for discussion? Post after post supports the actions of the Michigan conference. Many of these post ask us to harken back to Michigan’s historical position as a key component in past church controversies. What is the relevance of that now? Am I to assume that because in the past Michigan has found itself on the right side that it once again inherently in that position. That is a non-sequiter. Where is the active discussion on this issue? I haven’t seen one post, one query, one argument to examine this issue. I haven’t heard from the teachers at La Sierra. Where are their voices? Its amazing that we as American cherish our right to dissent, our right to an opinion, and our right to a fair trial, but when we talk religion these concepts are thrown out the window. Of course this is partly natural. Our children are our most important possessions. Their eternal souls are more important than our transient lives here on earth. But let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. One of the earlier posts talked about God’s destruction of Lucifer, the exodus from the Garden of Eden, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The essential component of each of these situations was the action of God. We don’t live in a theocracy any more. Why are we so eager to abandon the pillars of democracy when it comes to religion? Are we scared that we will lose our place as the remnant if we give way to our intellects? Will our enquiries of the physical world in which we live cause us to lose our faith in the metaphysical world which surrounds us? Is this how poorly we consider the education of our children by their parents? Do they suddenly forget everything they have learned the moment they step into a collegiate classroom? If so, I would argue that the wrong education system is being attacked. But lets assume for a moment that they don’t, that they are able to bring their prior knowledge with them into the classroom. LSU is a university, as such its students are adults, albeit young ones. They are not defenceless. They should be prepared to counter the snares of Satan, and in doing so, perhaps help others who are struggling. College was not the first place that I encountered evolution, and I struggled with it before college. What better place to examine it, than in a classroom full of other Adventists? Of course the concern is that the teachers are teaching evolution as truth. But what kind of examination of our existence would it be if we entered the argument with the conclusion already determined. And it isn’t enough that we do this to our children, but the Michigan Conference has done it for us. Instead of waiting for the GC to convene, to discuss, and to judge this issue, it has been done by a select committee. Are we really this scared of evolution? Do we no longer believe in the triumph of truth over lies?

    Of course I can’t help but to think of historical examples of this manner. The much maligned Catholic church censored the words of scientists, declaring them heretics for presenting their discoveries, well beyond the point when those discoveries were merely theories but well into when they were inconvertible fact. Let us not fall into their mould. We don’t have all the answers. Think of William Miller. A name which few adventists don’t know and respect. We are told that his death came partly because he would not have been able to accept the truth of the Sabbath. We should learn from him, we must examine the evidence as it becomes available.

    Far more dangerous than honest intellectual discourse at our universities are the agendas which a select few are trying to push through our religion. So desperate are they to make a name for themselves that not only do they scour our universities trying to create problems, but they haunt these very message boards to propagate their ideology. They seem to forget the personal walk with Christ. While universities like Southern are heralded as bastions against the dark tide of secularism, schools like La Sierra are torn apart. Yet, each of us has our own walk with Christ; our own path. Strangely Southern is not the ideal for everyone. While LSU is smeared for presenting the possibility of evolution, no one mentions the gaps which can be found in many of the other SDA schools. Information is left out because it doesn’t fit the conservative right of SDA’s viewpoint. Integral theories and ideas are left out of the education rubric because they make students question. What about the student who wants to question? Who doesn’t want to accept everything spoon-fed to them by their professors? Students not only know the academic standings of the schools they choose to attend, but also the ideology which is attached to each school. Let them decide which is best for them. Are we so confident in our interpretations of things, which can only be interpretations, that we will exclude all other knowledge from our peers?

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  31. The problem is that the discourse is not honest, it was not made a forum for discussion. When someone tries to speak out for a more literal interpretation of the Bible, they are disciplined! Their motives are maligned and their college record smeared.

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  32. I’ve also stopped tithing to Southern California. I’ve been doing my tithe online to what I still feel is my real home church in Washington state.

    Hmm. I’ve just been reminded of something. I know somebody important at the North Pacific Union Conference Northwest HQ. I’m going to send an email to let him know about my support for what the Michigan Conference has done. Hopefully he’s already aware of all this, but if not, I’ll fill him in.

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  33. @Adventist Student:

    I believe the Michigan Conference is saying they will no longer subsidize tuition to LSU. They are certainly within their rights to take that position. The Mich Conf does not subsidize university tuition for our workers whose children are attending state universities. Also, as a pastor in the Michigan Conference other shortcomings have been noted in our academies and universities. I guess there is a line drawn in the sand and when the line was crossed by some of our teachers and leaders Michigan Conference has decided not to cross that line, too. They are the spiritual guardians of seventh-day Adventists in the State of Michigan and they are making a statement that they consider LSU is no longer a safe school for Michigan SDA students to attend.

    There is nothing wrong in that position. Elder Gallimore has the heart of a true shepherd of the flock and I know he wants to give a good answer when asked by the Great Shepherd, “Where is my flock, my precious flock?” I know Jay personally. True to principle, yes, but he is very kind and gentle, too, and he wants to give a good accounting to Jesus someday when he is asked. We are blessed here in Michigan.

    Pastor Doug Carlson
    Associate Pastor, Battle Creek Tabernacle, Battle Creek, Michigan,
    Michigan Conference of Seventh-day (literal creation taught there) Adventists

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  34. I notice some interesting trends in the comments against Michigan Conference and it’s supporters.

    Some tend to have more sarcasm, intentionally incomplete sentences, and statements without logic or informational backing. They often also have at least a few caps-lock statements of emotional outrage.

    Others are rather passive aggressive. They’re attempting to belittle the statements in support of the Michigan conference’s actions by suggesting they come from “few” people who are somehow an insignificant renegade group within the church, and that these “few” are somehow less Christian. A casual analysis of these comments reveals they’re mostly full of ad-hominem attacks and straw-man arguments.

    Another is the tendency to claim that quotes from the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy are being twisted, without explaining why and without making a counterpoint.

    Finally there are those genuinely convinced that the “consensus” of the “scientific community” cannot possibly be wrong, and have given into the idea that belief in a literal creation cannot be held by an honest, intelligent individual. These are generally identifiable by patronizing comments toward those who do, while taking no note whatsoever of the large amount of supporting evidence held by the “opposing” side.

    Now, if anyone wants to reply to this with some manner of sharp rebuke, I would ask that you first ponder these questions:

    1. What is a Seventh-Day Adventist? Is there a definition? Is it written down somewhere for all to see?

    2. If there is a definition, then would an individual who meets some, but not all, of these defining characteristics still be a Seventh-Day Adventist? If yes, which ones are essential, or how many are needed for the definition to still be met?

    3. Why are the two words “Seventh-Day” contained in this label or title? Does it point to a particular significance of any portion of the defining characteristics of being a Seventh-Day Adventist? If so, which part?

    Enough beating around the bush. We’re Seventh-Day Adventists because we believe that the seventh day of the week is the Sabbath, and that the Sabbath is a memorial of creation. It wasn’t the Seventh-“multi-million-year-period” that was made into the Sabbath, it was the Seventh Day.

    If you want to believe that God did not literally create everything in 6 days, and if you want to teach others the same; if you want to believe Genesis is a fairy-tale or “not-literal”, then God Himself has given you the freedom of choice to do that. Even Satan has freedom of choice in belief. However, logically, you can’t claim yourself to be a Seventh-Day Adventist while refuting the very foundation of the name itself. If you insist that you’re right, then go ahead with it, just don’t claim to be a part of this organization while you’re at it. That is an illogical action.

    The Seventh-Day Adventist Church is not a club. You can’t rightfully call yourself a member if you don’t actually believe in what the name stands for. Stop getting upset about it, it’s just logical.

    There’s only a few reasons to actually want to remain a part of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church while not believing in it’s foundations. One is you’re afraid to let go. Generally a person won’t realize this is their situation. If you’re afraid to let go, then ask yourself why. If you still believe in God, then ask Him for help in figuring this out. He will.

    The other reason is purely sinister. People who are actually infiltrating the church as agents of Satan. I imagine some are knowingly doing this, and some may not fully realize they’re doing this as an agent of the Devil. If you don’t think this actually happens, you may simply be naive or you might still have quite a bit of learning to do. If you believe Ellen White was a prophet (that’s one of the beliefs of the SDA church), then you should know that she warned this would happen to us.

    Here is a challenge for EVERY SINGLE PERSON who reads this post: Pray. Ask God to help you realize if you’re right or wrong in your stance on this issue. Ask Him to definitively show you the truth in this matter. Ask Him to help you accept the truth that is from Him. I will accept this challenge as well.

    If you don’t think He can handle a prayer like that, then you are not even a Christian. If you genuinely think yourself a Christian, then please read what He lovingly told us in the Gospels. He explained what sorts of things we can expect from God as a result of praying.

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  35. I want to thank Pastor Gallimore for having the courage to take a decided stand on this controversy. I am reminded of a statement from the book Education which I think is very pertinent:

    “The greatest want of the world is the want of men–men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.” {Ed 57.3}

    I hope the General conference, in session will also find men and women that are also unafraid to call sin by its right name, and to take a stand on this issue.

    As for those arguing for unity. Unity does have its place, but not at all costs. I am reminded of Christ’s own words in Matthew 10:32-39 which says:

    “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
    THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO SEND PEACE ON EARTH: I CAME NOT TO SEND PEACE, BUT A SWORD (emphasis supplied).
    For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.
    He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
    And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.”

    There is an unseen battle raging which transcends this issue. LSU has chosen as an institution to side with the world on this, while the Michigan conference has not.

    Again, the words of scripture are very poignant here from James 4:4

    “…know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

    Friendship with world will bring the sword of division. LSU has chosen friendship with the world on this issue, and it has brought the sword of division.

    And again scriptures say in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18:

    “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
    And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
    And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.”

    Pastor Gallimore has chosen to ratify the separation LSU has chosen to make from the principles of the SDA church. The division here is not one brought about by this site, nor by the Michigan Conference, but rather it has been brought about by LSU.

    LSU could very easily heal the division and rift it is causing and that it has caused. It could re-allign itself with the principles of the SDA Church. I think it won’t do that, because it has taken a stand on this issue that it will not retreat from. As such, it is only right and correct for Pastor Gallimore and the Michigan Conference and the General Conference to make a decided stand against it. Pastor Gallimore and the Michigan Conference have done their duty. It only remains now for the General Conference to do its duty.

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  36. Kevin, I pray a lot. I read Ellen White. I believe in every one of our fundamental beliefs. And I’m convinced that those who call out individuals by name and seek to humiliate and shame them publicly are mean-spirited and bring much delight to Satan and his agencies. They bring disgrace upon our cause. Don’t you dare tell me I’m not a Seventh-day Adventist or a Christian.

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  37. Geanna, you may mean well, but you are not necessarily right in your evaluation. Neither are you necessarily wrong. Each situation must be dealt with based on the circumstances of the situation.

    Many feel it is way past time for patronizing and condecending dialogue. It is time for clear statements and actions in harmony with this important issue. You seem to disagree with almost everything posted. Since you “read EGW” have you ever read this exhortation? If so, when and where should it be applied?

    “When there are among God’s people those who have departed from the path of humble obedience, those who have exalted self, those who have united with Satan in accusing and condemning the men appointed of God to be ministers of salvation, shall we keep silence for fear of hurting their feelings? When there are men in the church who love riches more than righteousness, and who stand ready to take advantage of their fellow men by unjust dealings, shall we make no protest? And when men standing in the position of leaders and teachers work under the power of spiritualistic ideas and sophistries, shall we keep silent, for fear of injuring their influence, while souls are being beguiled? Satan will use every advantage that he can obtain to cause souls to become beclouded and perplexed in regard to the work of the church, in regard to the word of God, and in regard to the words of warning which He has given through the testimonies of His Spirit, to guard His little flock from the subtleties of the enemy. {SpTB02 9.2}
    When men stand out in defiance against the counsel of God, they are warring against God. Is it right
    10
    for those connected with such ones to treat them as if they were in perfect harmony with them, making no difference between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not? Though they be ministers or medical missionaries, they have dishonored Christ before the forces of the loyal and the disloyal. Open rebuke is necessary, to prevent others from being ensnared. {SpTB02 9.3}
    To believe that evil must not be condemned because this would condemn those who practise the evil, is to act in favor of falsehood. If, after a man has been given many cautions and warnings, to save him from his hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, he takes offense, and refuses to accept the message graciously sent him from heaven, and puts aside the reproof of the Holy Spirit, his heart and conscience become hardened, and he is in great darkness. {SpTB02 10.1}
    The enmity that God has put in our hearts against deceptive practises, must be kept alive, because these practises endanger the souls of those who do not hate them. All deceptive dealings, all untruthfulness regarding the Father and the Son, by which their characters are presented in a false light, are to be recognized as grievous sins. There are those who have become apt scholars in this deceptive work. Those who can not see the danger that is threatening the Lord’s heritage because of these things will soon feel no enmity against the arch deceiver. Those who stand in positions of trust in our institutions are to show constant vigilance, else they will be taken captive. In words and deportment, in all their business transactions, they are to show the exactitude that will win the commendation, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” {SpTB02 10.2}

    This was her response to the Kellogg issue of Pantheism. Is the issue of creation vs. evolution less important? I think not. The principles she has stated in how and why we should oppose false teaching seems to apply clearly over this present issue. You apparently disagree.

    Ellen White stated names of individuals many times who opposed truth. We need not patronize individuals for “fear of hurting their feeling or their influence”. Especially when it is clearly obvious they oppose the bible and its clear teaching.

    So, as many have concluded, the lines are being drawn. Where we stand and how we respond is important for a preservation of bible truth.

    The church will no doubt get smaller before it gets bigger.

    Keep the faith

    Bill Sorensen

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  38. I would have to disagree with many of you. While taking a strong stand against something that they believe in, the Michigan Conference is risking the futures of any student of a Michigan Conference employee by refusing to honor their previous subsidy commitment. Perhaps they feel students will choose to transfer to another Adventist college or University, but having done this myself, I know that any previous class credits will NOT be accepted by every college and they will have to start over.

    Elizabeth:
    I find it difficult to understand why you would put academic concerns ahead of spiritual ones. Ok, so the worst case scenario is that the students may have to start over in a different institution. Is that so awful? It is far better for them to start over than be exposed to teachings that will destroy their faith. The Lord will bless them for it. Besides, why could we not appeal to the other institutions to accept the LSU credits for a short time in this emergency? Any institution who is working for the Lord would consider this, I am sure.

    What’s more, threatening to pull tithe and sending it to another conference will only hurt those in the community it is meant to help. Does one school’s actions make it alright to refuse to continue God’s work in that area? I understand that you feel a stand is necessary, but at what cost? Are these actions in line with the Adventist doctrine you are so strongly trying to hold on to? I fear that this is only going to cause a division in the church, something which Paul did everything in his power to prevent.

    On the subject of tithing considerations, I am sorry that withdrawal of tithing support will affect other areas of the ministry in the Southern California Conference. On the other hand, this will also magnify the pressure put to bear on the SCC to right this situation. Something has to be done to cut out this cancerous heresy. And a split in the church is already known to be in the works…it is called “the shaking”, and I have no doubt this issue is a part of it.

    I fear that the faith in the children of the church must be so low, that you cannot allow them to hear anything but what you want them to hear. What are you going to do when they leave school and are out in the real world, and hear opinions that differ from your own? God wishes us to think for ourselves, question, and formulate ideas. Without this we would not and could not learn. I also think that by doing this we can discover God for ourselves, and develop a true relationship with him, rather than one force fed to us by our parents and the church. Elizabeth Wilson

    The argument you put forward regarding the children of the church thinking for themselves is sheer nonsense. It has been used over and over to support the teaching of heresy. These children are not in the higher education institutions to figure things out for themselves. They are paying to be taught what is right and true. Your little theory has been blown out of the water long ago by the obvious result of cutting these young people adrift in the stormy seas of heresy. Open your eyes. The result of this has been so many young people becoming confused and losing their faith. When you are young, and you are sent to learn from your professors, you tend to believe what you are being taught. Few know enough to question what they are taught. And this situation is magnified when the professors involved ridicule and persecute those students who do question their teachings.

    The point of their attending university and college is that they come to learn from those who supposedly already know what is right and true. Putting the young into an institute of learning and telling them to think for themselves when heresy is being taught and truth suppressed is stacking the deck against them.

    First you teach them what is right and true so that they have a foundation to evaluate all subsequent information that life is going to throw at them. You wouldn’t take a college grad and immediately make him a surgeon, would you? Of course not; he hasn’t had the education he needs to operate safely. Same principles apply here.

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  39. While the Michigan Conf. has been accused of being divisive, the only ones that are truly divisive are those who knowingly teach and support error. Unity only comes with submission to truth.

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  40. I was a Seventh-day Adventist for 50 years. When I found that I could not believe in all the fundamentals, I politely left. I think that any individual, teacher, pastor, or institution that cannot believe in Ellen White, the 2300 years, 1844, a literal creation, or whatever else the church stands for, should not insist on being part of the organization. To me it was a matter of integrity not to pretend to be something I was not.

    I am thankful for what the SDA church gave me, and I retain much of value from my upbringing and education in that church. But as long as Ellen White is considered to be a continuing source of authoritative counsel, it will be difficult for the church to advance beyond her grave.

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  41. I re-read this whole thread. It was nice to see a post by Hubb. Hope you Barbara are doing well. I don’t know many of you and I am sure few of you know me.

    I used to post on A-today until the run me off and took away my access to post. Same with Spectrum. They believe in “freedom” as long as you don’t expose them as the apostates they are. I can still read comments on both forums and do occasionally. David Read does well. Seems to be well educated and defends the historic faith.

    But the point is this, this forum is the exact opposite in types of posters who generally support the historic Christian faith and especially bible Adventism. Of course, you have Geanna and a few others who oppose any correction of error and seem to support “pluralism” as a viable option in sustaining the Christian faith. For some of us at least, such and options is absurd. The church is not a “clearing house” for every “Tom, Dick and Harry” to express and advocate their false ideas and then claim the right to do so under the heading of “Christian freedom”.

    Churches state their understanding of the bible. And while it is true, there will always be some latitude in understanding and application, none the less, certain clear and objective positions are stated which are non-negotiable. For SDA’s, this would necessarily include….
    1. Creation as revealed in Gen. 1.
    2. The Seventh day Sabbath.
    3. State of the dead.
    4. Issues on the visible and literal second coming.
    5. 1844 and the pre-advent judgment.
    6. Validity of the ministry of EGW.

    And we might name a few more. But this should give us some idea of how a church defines itself. If you substancially disagree with certain stated positions that actually define and identify the church and its own stated mission, then in all honesty, you should simply withdraw and go your own way.

    Historically, this is always what has happened. Men like Canright, Conradi, Ballenger….etc simply eventually withdrew as they realized their understanding was not in harmony with basic fundamental bible Adventism. Not so today. Men like Dr. Ford and a host of other want to remodel the church doctrine and attack and deny the historic faith. They don’t want to leave perhaps for financial considerations in some cases.

    Some do leave, of course. And their honesty is more commendable than those who emulate Satan who went around heaven claiming loyalty to God will working earnestly to undermine His kingdom and government.

    Today, we see honest bible believing SDA’s come alive and state their convictions on this blog. I know many of you have prayed not knowing exactly what to do about many issues of evil coming into the church. Some leaders have the same concerns. Others see no need for reform and support most of the present activity on worship style, dress, music and host of other issues including women’s ordination.

    This issue with LSU has given many an opportunity to speak up in defense of not only the SDA position, but historic Christanity as well.

    God bless all who have posted in defense of bible Adventism. We all should take courage from each other knowing we are not alone and that God has many more who will stand up for truth as we near the end. I for one am encouraged by the many posts in support of our faith.

    God bless all who posted in defense of His word.

    Keep the faith

    Bill Sorensen

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  42. A former Seventh-day Adventist says: “I was a Seventh-day Adventist for 50 years. When I found that I could not believe in all the fundamentals, I politely left. I think that any individual, teacher, pastor, or institution that cannot believe in Ellen White, the 2300 years, 1844, a literal creation, or whatever else the church stands for, should not insist on being part of the organization. To me it was a matter of integrity not to pretend to be something I was not”.

    My dear former SDA member, I salute you for your honesty and integrity, for leaving the church when you could no longer reconcile your beliefs with the teachings of the church. I heard Clifford Goldstein declare at the last GYC that he is a Seventh-Day Adventist because of the doctrines, I fully agree with Elder Goldstein. I also joined the church for the same reason, the doctrines, which are plain, simple, bible based and Christ centered.

    To all those who reject the literal seven-day creation week like Professor Geraty, I want to appeal to you to be true to your convictions and do the most honorable thing, that is leave the church and stop calling yourselves Seventh-Day Adventists.

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  43. It is a traumatic thing to leave the church after being immersed (literally) in it. However, if the point comes that a person cannot keep their baptismal vow to support the church with their tithes and their influence, it is the only honorable thing to do. It is dishonest to stay in because of social or financial advantage when not believing the fundamentals. And those who subvert students in SDA schools, when they and their parents are making great sacrifices to receive an “Adventist” education, are traitors. If evolution is being taught as a superior model, the course should be clearly defined as such.

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  44. I think we need to be very careful about judging the motives of others in conclusions they have come to that radically differ from our understanding. SAul/Paul. working to destroy Christians, truly thought he was doing God’s work. While we need to decide if some things are right, if we should allow them in our midst, encourage them, and/or support them; we can leave to God the judging of what drives them in their belief.

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  45. former SDA, I do not know what specific beliefs seperate you from us, but I admire your kind spirit and pray as another poster said that God will give us all knowledge and wisdom so that we may be in unity.

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  46. Bill Sorensen lists 6 positions that he feels are non-negotiable for SDA’s, namely:

    1. Creation as revealed in Gen. 1.
    2. The Seventh day Sabbath.
    3. State of the dead.
    4. Issues on the visible and literal second coming.
    5. 1844 and the pre-advent judgment.
    6. Validity of the ministry of EGW.

    I would hope that belief in God, and faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior would top the list. If that were the case, and the last two (#5-6) were optional, I could be a good Seventh-day Adventist. Ellen was a tireless worker and inspirational writer, but to believe that everything she wrote was “rays of light direct from the throne of God” is just too much for me to handle. I have studied her works extensively.

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  47. former Seventh-day Adventist,

    The Bible is of the same metal as the writings of Mrs. White. Neither is perfect. Both have some mistakes, some errors. As the moon can only reflect light from the sun, does not originate light and may reflect it imperfectly at times, so the Bible, as the “lesser light,” is but a reflection of the light from Jesus, the “Sun of righteousness” (see Malachi 4:2).

    All scripture is given for our benefit and instruction (2 Timothy 3:16). Yet as the “lesser light” it should be obvious that it does not present the full amount of truth that one might receive from Christ, the Greater Light. Jesus could not possibly convey to us the entire body of truth in a few books. He does, however, give us the essential education for our salvation, and I believe that Mrs. White has written a great amount of helpful instructions that are relevant in our day.

    Certainly, on this issue of Creation vs Evolution, Mrs. White speaks plainly, and if we were to accept her writings as a church, this controversy would be dead.

    Erik

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  48. @former Seventh-day Adventist:

    Bill Sorensen lists 6 positions that he feels are non-negotiable for SDA’s, namely:

    1. Creation as revealed in Gen. 1.
    2. The Seventh day Sabbath.
    3. State of the dead.
    4. Issues on the visible and literal second coming.
    5. 1844 and the pre-advent judgment.
    6. Validity of the ministry of EGW.

    Indeed – those are among the Fundamental Beliefs of Sevent-day Adventists – they are among the ones specific to the point of the subject of creation vs evoluitonism.

    I would hope that belief in God, and faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior would top the list.

    Those are also included in the Fundamental Beliefs – but are not as directly challenged by evolutionism. Thus one would not start by saying “you do no believe in God” or “you have no faith in Jesus Christ as Lord, because you believe in the doctrines of evolutionism”.

    If you are arguing that evolutionist must not believe in Christ as Lord – if they promote evolution – that is an interesting idea – but not one that has been the keystone of this discussion.

    If that were the case, and the last two (#5-6) were optional, I could be a good Seventh-day Adventist.

    That is true – if we make certain distinctives in the set of 28 Adventist Fundamental Beliefs “optional” then by definition since these beliefs are already Christian beliefs – many Christians of other denominations could be considered “Adventists”.

    Ellen was a tireless worker and inspirational writer, but to believe that everything she wrote was “rays of light direct from the throne of God” is just too much for me to handle. I have studied her works extensively.

    This is not a thread for debating the Gifts of the Spirit listed in 1Cor 12 or how the Gift of Prophecy works – or whether everything Ellen White wrote in her diary is “inspired by God”.

    But there a cases such as 3SG 91 where it is very clear that we are not talking about some stray comment in a diary.

    But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom. {3SG 91.1}

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  49. Theologian Des Ford was “defrocked” for having alternate views on the 2300 days.

    Should a university professor be allowed to not only have, but teach views contrary to stated SDA beliefs in schools devoted to graduating students solid in the faith?

    Des Ford presented his views to a group of seasoned theologians. I find this more appropriate than incorporating non-SDA views into student curriculum.

    I believe that an apology is owed to Des Ford for this double standard.

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  50. Shane, you asked what alternatives there are.

    Yes, I did ask, but you haven’t offered anything. I asked Professor Kent if he had any ideas, but he offered none. By the way, why is it that you two quote each other? He quotes you on AToday and you quote him on Educate Truth. It’s as if the two of you can’t comment on the same thread for some reason.

    So what would you do if you were in my shoes? How would you handle things? I’m open to hear suggestions. Many things were tried before the website was put up. What does one do when those who are responsible aren’t addressing the problem?

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  51. As I see it, this whole controversy boils down to one simple thing as far as I am concerned: Do we believe that the Bible is the living, life changing, Word of the God of the universe or do we not? Do we believe that this God is the all-powerful, all knowing Being He claims to be or don’t we? Believing in creation, as such, will never save anyone. It is in knowing, loving and believing in the all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful God of creation that will.

    I am not against studying ABOUT evolution in our schools. Our young people are bound to be met with in someday, somewhere–but that study MUST be done in the light of “thus saith the Lord” which ALWAYS should be center-front regardless of what we are studying. When we once start “reasoning” outside of the Bible we are on very dangerous ground. Mankind, led by the arch-deceiver, can always find a “reason” to doubt, to question, to turn his back on a “thus saith the Lord.” It happened to Eve in the Garden and it has been happening to Eve’s descendants ever since. But it always ends in destruction in one form or another. Always! If any theory does not agree with Scripture it is always wrong and the work of the arch deceiver. Always!!!

    Please, let’s stop our bickering and unite on the one sure foundation of “thus saith the Lord.” It is the only “sure thing” in this world and to venture off of that foundation will only end in suffering the second and final death. It is simply to big a risk to take.

    I firmly believe that we are living in the very “toenails” of the image of Daniel 2 and that King Jesus will soon burst through the starry skies to gather His faithful people and take them Home. This is not the time to be led astray by the many winds of false doctrine that are going to grow more and more powerful as time goes on. We must return to being the “people of the Book,” as Adventists were once called, if we want to be among the faithful ones who, with rapture, will exclaim “This is our God–we have waited for Him and He will save us. This is the Lord–we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation!”

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  52. @ Faith

    The point of their attending university and college is that they come to learn from those who supposedly already know what is right and true. Putting the young into an institute of learning and telling them to think for themselves when heresy is being taught and truth suppressed is stacking the deck against them.

    First you teach them what is right and true so that they have a foundation to evaluate all subsequent information that life is going to throw at them. You wouldn’t take a college grad and immediately make him a surgeon, would you? Of course not; he hasn’t had the education he needs to operate safely. Same principles apply here.

    Faith,

    I must respectfully disagree (and respectfully is the way we should all disagree) that the point of a student attending a college or university is to learn from we who supposedly know what is right and true. Any professor who claims to have discovered all there is to know on a subject is disingenuous. We never (and neither should we claim to) arrive at a place where there is nothing more to learn or nothing to debate or struggle over. If we could arrive at such a place, there would be no need for the liberal arts university as an institution. The university environment has always been the place for “collaborative struggle” in all fields of learning. If we are not willing to put students in an environment to think for themselves, I believe that they will never function as autonomous individuals, they will never become adults.

    At what age do we trust our students to engage difficult issues like these for themselves? Nearly all of our students come to us already having reached the age of majority (18), and at what point will we be finished completing the foundation and declare the students ready to handle the issues subsequently thrown their way? I believe that the university is the perfect place to confront these issues and where godly and committed professors, administrators and staff are there to help and to safely guide students in that journey. The educational process can be uncomfortable for some (as it was for me) but that does not mean that it is not beneficial. Our university environment is certainly a better place for them to learn these things than in a frat house party or on a street corner somewhere. This is about as passionately as anyone will see me speak on an issue, except of course my own research fields!

    David Kendall, PhD
    Adjunct Professor of Music
    La Sierra University

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  53. Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

    Greetings from Asia! How amazing and fortunate we have the Holy Bible and also the writings of Mrs Ellen G White to guide us in times such as these. Where right seems wrong and wrong seems right.

    The Great Controversy’s first version dated 1858, Chapter 32 on The Shaking, Mrs White in her vision saw and wrote:

    “I saw some with strong faith and agonizing cries, pleading with God…

    Some, I saw did not participate in this work of agonizing and pleading. They seemed indifferent and careless. They were not resisting the darkness around them, and it shut them in like a thick cloud. The angels of God left them, went to the aid of those earnest, praying ones…

    I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen. I was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the true Witness to the Laodiceans… These straight testimony some will not bear. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God’s people.

    I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded…

    The numbers of this company had lessened. some had been shaken out, and left by the way. The careless and indifferent who did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to agonize, persevene, and pled for it, did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness, and their numbers were immediately made up by others taking hold of the truth, and coming into the ranks. Still the evil angels pressed around them, but they could have no power over them.

    I heard those clothed with the armor speak forthe the truth in great power. it had effect… All fear of their relatives was gone. The truth alone was exalted to them. It was dearer and more precious than life. They had been hungering and thirsting for truth. I asked what had made this great change. An angel answered, It is the latter rain; the refreshing from the presence of the Lord; the lour cry of the third angel.

    Great power was with these chosen ones….. I saw measures taken against this company….yet there they stood, approved of God, and trusting in him. I saw them perplexed. Thy will, O God be done! If it can glorify thy name, make a way of escape for thy people! Deliver us from heathen round about us! They have appointed us unto death; but thine arm can bring salvation.”

    Perhaps, we are beginning to or soon to be entering the period that is described above. If so, may we prayerfully and earnestly search our hearts and minds…

    To those who stand up for truth according to the Bible, may God continue to give them strength and courage and double portion of His Spirit and power to walk in the light. To those who go against the Bible and the Almighty Creator, it is my prayer that the Holy Spirit will convict you of your stand.

    There is really no absolute proof for or against Creation or Evolution. Both require certain element of faith. It’s a fact that no human being has ever seen how God created the world! Not even Adam, the first human being! Therefore, no one, not even Adam can proof beyond doubt that God has indeed created the world. Likewise, evolution is a theory that is conceived by man and is still being tested and modified and proof or disproof after 100 years.

    So, would one want to base his or her faith on the Holy Bible or Darwin’s theory of evolution?

    I choose to be on the side of the Holy Bible. Why?

    Only because I have experienced and know the author of this Sacred Book. Therefore, I believe in its account of Creation in six literal days and also in its genealogy that indicated how long was this world created. What’s more, I see the beauty, perfect patterns, amazing colour, great variety…. of flowers and plants and animals and fishes and birds… which reveals to me that there must be indeed a wise, artistic and all powerful Creator of all these living things.

    Yours in Christ,
    David J Tan
    ASI President
    Southern Asia=Pacific Division

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  54. David Kendall used the phrase “safely guide” in reference to the education of students. It seems that full disclosure of course content would be a good start. The objectives of the course should be openly stated. The description should tell the leanings of the professor. The course description should state if the course promotes evolution as a superior model, or if it promotes design/creation as a superior model. The course description should also disclose whether or not the curriculum meets SDA standards/guidelines. This way parents and students could safely choose if they want an education that is in harmony with their religious beliefs, or a secular education. There is a time and place to deal with tough subject matter, but non-SDA views should not be introduced surreptitiously into the curriculum, posing as “Adventist education”. If a school is claiming to be a Seventh-day Adventist institution, it should uphold SDA ideals and philosophy. Basic honesty.

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  55. Why directing this to Elder Gallimore? The whole Michigan Conference Executive Committee has done this, and I am glad!Anyway, this is a familiar ploy blaming those who stand up for what we agreed to believe. Who has shattered the unity of the church in the first place – except those who have been teaching & propagating the evolutionary theory to our young people in stealth all these years.  (Quote)

    Justin,
    Excellent point. It is those who have been teaching and propagating falsehood, evolution or theological or moral, that are shattering the unity we as Seventh-day Adventist Christians should find in Jesus Christ. I have read most of the posts and did not realize that the issue had come so far. Thank God that the Michigan Conference has already made a stand. Now, we must pray for the General Conference soon to be convening in Atlanta to prayerfully consider a much larger response through the guidance of the Holy Spirit Who has already guided us through similar trouble in the past. The Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy are clear. Through confession and repentance the Lord is able to lead us through this in the name of Jesus, our Lord and Creator and Savior. Amen.

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  56. BTW, the SDA student pointed out something important when they said evolution is openly taught at their school. It is really not important to find out where that school is, we need to consider all our schools. I know for sure that not only is evolution not being taught as a good explanation at the school close to me. Moreover, our school decided last year to be very intentional about preparing our kids for the big E in or out of our ed system. We no longer assume others will continue what we have begun.

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  57. We need to be careful not to paint all schools with the same brush. While I’m certain that there are some in other SDA U’s who are promoting Evolutionism, it is not anywhere near the problem as it is in LSU. And If appropriate action is taken at LSU, then there will be a domino effect through out all the schools and those who will not agree to teach what the Church expects, will be weeded out.

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  58. I think we need to consider the philosophy behind the modern movement in Christanity in general. And then see how this philosophy has affected and infiltrated Adventism.

    EGW has said something to this effect, “As the Jews rejected Christ and the gospel in their defense of the law, the last generation of professing Christians will abandon the full import of the law in the name of the gospel.”

    Thus, the Jews judged harshly with little or no real application of grace. And it led to a self righteous attitude of exclusiveness and demonstrated a false picture of God and His kingdom. They assumed to determine who could and would be saved as individuals and who would not. To preceive an over all picture of the kingdom of God by way of scripture, and then warn people in general of the final judgment is not only right and needful, but commendable for the believing community to advocate truth in this context.

    Catholicism, like the Jews claim the authority for the church to judge final salvation and thus we have “St Peter” at the gate to decide who can go and in who can not. This illustrates the false authority Rome has claimed for itself concerning judgment and salvation.

    Now we have in the world today an “apostate Protestant” view of salvation which claims we can “judge” no one on any level since we can not judge their final salvation. Modern Adventism has embraced this false view of judging and thus allowed some gross evil to come into the church. Not only refusing to condemn sin, but actually embracing it and pushing individuals into high positions of influence and authority who have little or no qualification to be there.

    If is it sin to pre-judge individuals as though we can know the final outcome and thus condemn anyone who we discern is not in harmony with the bible, then we can ask, “How is this worse than claiming we can forgive anyone with no accountability?”

    I strongly suspect we are “forgiving” people even God won’t forgive and in so doing, place ourselves above God. Is it more self righteous to condemn when God has not condemned, than to forgive what God has not forgiven?

    This is no small issue. The only way you can “sell” universalism, the final deception, is to warp forgiveness beyond its biblical perspective and allow every evil in the church in the name of the gospel, coupled with the false idea that no one can “judge” on any level.

    We must distinguish between the final judgment of God at the end of the world, and present on-going judgment day by day in the human experience. The church not only has a right to judge, but must necessarily do so to preserve any semblance of bible Christanity in the Christian community. And while the judgment of the church is limited and relative, it is none the less approved by God who says “Judge righteous judgment”.

    “Judge not, that ye be not judged” certainly does not apply in this situation. But is continually quoted and used to negate individual and church responsibility in administrating the principles of God’s kingdom in the church.

    Thus, we “rock and roll” around the golden calf, wear anything we please, and worship “we know not what” all in the name of this false gospel. The longer the church continues to refuse to act in righteous judgment, the more difficult it becomes to do so as time goes by. The devil gets a firmer and firmer grip on the church and his influence increases as he is not opposed openly and decidely by those in responsible positions.

    The conflict with LSU and creation vs. evolution is a classic example of this reality. And the organized church response is equally expected based on past activity or non-activity as the case may be.

    Unless we understand spiritualism (a false gospel), we can not preceive what exactly is happening nor know how to deal with it individually as church members or a corporate church movement.

    Keep the faith

    Bill Sorensen

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  59. To Elder Gallimore and to the other members of the leadership in the Michigan Conference I applaud you and the Christian stand you have taken! You are upholding God’s cause and ‘His’ standards that were being pulled to the ground. The damage done to our youth I personally have seen in our church and they falter in their walk as Seventh-day Adventists. May God uphold you and strengthen you for this priceless stand that you have taken! I also applaud our youth, of whom Shane Hilde is a representative, it strengthens my own belief in our future when such strong, spiritual young men step forward. May God bless all of you and may all our other Universities and Acadamies review their stand on Creation and all of our beliefs.

    Judith

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  60. @ BobRyan

    @Geanna Dane:

    Mr. Gallimore has directly, blatantly, and undeniably undermined Fundamental Belief #14, while on the church’s dime. He must immediately resign or be fired. (Quote)

    One way to gauge the depth and significance of a man’s positions is to take note of the perspectives taken by the crowds that oppose him.

    Very often the objective observer will find this little detail to lead to an insightful source of objective “recommendation” for or against the man’s views.

    Do you mean that a man’s (or woman’s) position is vindicated by intelligent and reasoned responses by those who oppose, or by unintelligent and unreasoned responses by the same?

    The statement was a bit of verbal irony, characterizing the views of one set of observers from the perspective of another set of observers, and is intended to illustrate what happens to a particular position when it is taken to one of its logical conclusions. In this case we might say that the moral of the irony is: “the knife cuts both ways.”

    You remain very concerned with the “objective observer.” Who is this observer and how does he or she remain objective?

    Pax,

    David Kendall, PhD
    Adjunct Professor of Music
    La Sierra University

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  61. Clarification: The first part of the quote is from Geanna Dane, while the second and third parts are BobRyan’s response. Sorry for the confusion, I put a quote within a quote; bad academic form!

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  62. Praise God For the Stand Pr Gallimore and the commitie took .. i have followed this appostacy for some time LSU. its a problem here in australia as well.. We need More Faithful men to take a stand for the truth and for OUR WONDERFUL GOD AND CREATER AND SOON COMING KING… I Pray for our church and institutions the young people will raise up and stand for the truth ..

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  63. God bless the Michigan Conference leadership and all involved with their decision, and their strong stand for truth in the face of faith-destroying error. Although I’m unfamiliar with the specifics of La Sierra’s errant teachings, ANYTHING supporting the evolutionary theory simply has to be wrong, and wrong to teach in our churches and educational institutions. Why? Perhaps most importantly, it undermines the 4th Commandment, in wbich God Himself, with His own hand, wrote, “For in six days….” And of course, it calls into question the Genesis account of God’s six days of creative activity, and in so doing, encourages doubt in the whole of Scripture. (I’ll leave it to Cliff Goldstein and others much wiser than I to explain from the Hebrew why these clearly are literal 24-hour days/nights.) From a common sense standpoint, how could the vegetation created on Day Three have survived a thousand years (or however much longer) without the sun’s light and warmth, which were brought into existence on Day Four, or, in many plant species, without the assistance of the bees, which were created on Day Five? If one doesn’t have faith in the validity of Scripture, a reading of Michael Behe’s “Darwin’s Black Box” should convince anyone with a true heart and an open mind that although you cannot prove Creation, you can indeed DISprove evolution; it is simply impossible. Millions have given their lives in support of the Bible. The Michigan Conference stalwarts and all who support them are honoring God and those millions, and God has said,”Them that honor Me, I will honor.” La Sierra leaders and faculty, if you offend in one Scriptural area, you offend in all. Please humble yourselves and come to your spiritual senses and become, once again, an influence on your students for good, and not for heresy.

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  64. It’s about time that someone has a backbone [edit]. It’s a shame that we have teachers who profess to be SDA’s, but are far from it. The Bible tells us that those who would be of the seed of Abraham will do the works of Abraham. I am a 5th generation SDA, but should I give up the faith and doctrines that have made us a peculiar people, I am no longer what I profess to be. Profession means nothing, for it is by our fruits that we will be known and read of all men.

    Heaven help us to be the people we have been called to be. May we each one firmly decide to take a stand for truth, and climb higher up the heavenly ladder.

    Diana G.

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  65. Sorry, but I have to share my thoughts on this subject:

    First of all, I am offended by the Michigan Conference’s use of the word “condemn” as if they have been Divinely appointed to openly attack other SDA institutions?! Does anyone think that this might be wrong?

    Why are some Adventists and our SDA Church so fearful of any type of scientific evidence that might actually give us some light on the Bible and our human existence?

    I took an amazing class last summer at LSU on Evolution and Creation. There is so much evidence that makes you think:” has our church played God for too long with us?” I hope not.
    Seems like a very old-school Catholic mentality to me: Don’t educate anyone so that they don’t discover the truth for themselves! Don’t allow mind to wonder too far, because we might actually learn something new that might make us question our beliefs.
    I remember that 20+ years ago many of our churches denied clear evidence of the existence of dinosaurs (who’s bones were discoved even back in the 18oo’s). I actually believed the church as a girl until we all witnessed the evidence of actual archeological discoveries of dinosaur bones all over the world appearing before our eyes.
    Why are we (if we are to be the last day church) still living and preaching the 19th Century theology? Our church needs to stop playing and start praying for enlightment and wisdom in this new age we are living in!
    Do we believe that our God is also the greatest Scientist? If we do, then we better start looking at some serious scientific facts that cannot be disputed, and stop hanging on to the skirts of a group of old theologians who are scared of facing the truth that we (SDA church) might not have ALL the divine knowledge and power! If we stop reading and learning, then we stop thinking and understanding just how big God and His creation really is.

    So, in my view I fully support La Sierra in trying to take a holistic approach to teaching science and expose its students to the wider scientific truth that opens a discussion between Christian students and those who aren’t about scientific facts that need to be included in today’s SDA educational system. We cannot sit blindly anymore as passive students, but active teachers of the truth. They say that “truth hurts” and I think that this just might be the case in our church.
    God expects us all to keep studying His word and His WORLD, not regurgitate the truths we know, but find new ways of understanding and thinking that applies to current world, day, and age.

    “Study to show thyself approved…”
    Alan

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  66. Alan: Wow. How is it that you had been not told what the SDA church really teaches? No Dinosaurs? You gotta be kidding. I’m 59 and all my life I’ve known that Dinosaurs existed before the Flood and died in the Flood. (I’m currently studying for a degree in dinosaur Palentology.) The Adventist Book Centers have been selling books on Noah’s Flood and dinosaurs and how all geology fits into the flood for many many decades. What planet have you been on??

    So in effect, you go to LSU ignorant of SDA teaching on Creation and Flood geology. No wonder LSU gets away with it!

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  67. Alan: Wow.How is it that you had been not told what the SDA church really teaches?No Dinosaurs?You gotta be kidding.I’m 59 and all my life I’ve known that Dinosaurs existed before the Flood and died in the Flood. (I’m currently studying for a degree in dinosaur Palentology.)The Adventist Book Centers have been selling books on Noah’s Flood and dinosaurs and how all geology fits into the flood for many many decades. What planet have you been on??
    So in effect, you go to LSU ignorant of SDA teaching on Creation and Flood geology. No wonder LSU gets away with it!  

    I highly recommend David C. Read’s book ‘Dinosaurs: An Adventist View’; it outlines clearly the traditional Adventist perspective on this subject.

    Bro. Roy, Like to talk with you sometime. Here’s my email:

    revelationunlocked@gmail.com

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  68. Alan,

    You speak in general terms about having our minds open to new truth as God may reveal it, and, you said, about “…some serious scientific facts that cannot be disputed….” Would you please be more specific?

    It’s once thing to have an open mind so that we’ll be able to accept new revelations from God, but a whole different thing if we have an open mind that absorbs anything and everything new, or new to us, that we’re presented with. God wants us to reason together with Him (and I might extend that to “let us reason together” among one another).

    And so I repeat, please be specific about what you believe should or shouldn’t be accepted by Seventh-day Adventists concerning the Creation versus Evolution discussion. I think Allen Roy already addressed the topic of dinosuars, although I feel that his ad hominem question, “What planet have you been on?” adds nothing to this conversation but heat, not light.

    Thanks, Alan.

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  69. Alan says:

    “So, in my view I fully support La Sierra in trying to take a holistic approach to teaching science and expose its students to the wider scientific truth that opens a discussion between Christian students and those who aren’t about scientific facts that need to be included in today’s SDA educational system. We cannot sit blindly anymore as passive students, but active teachers of the truth. They say that “truth hurts” and I think that this just might be the case in our church.
    God expects us all to keep studying His word and His WORLD, not regurgitate the truths we know, but find new ways of understanding and thinking that applies to current world, day, and age.

    “Study to show thyself approved…”

    Alan you ended your posting with a partial quotation of Paul’s admonition to Timothy, the full text reads, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”. 2 Timothy 2 : 15. What is TRUTH?. The Jesus says in John 17:17 “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth”. Yes our minds have to be open to accept my revelations BUT only if they are in harmony with the standard bearer, the BIBLE. Jesus promised us that the Holy Spirit, the Comforter will not teach us anything that will contradict his own teaching. We are on dangerous ground if we just open our minds to embrace anything and everything that is out there in the world.

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  70. One of my favorite internet sites is Nasa’s Hubble pictures. Going there this week I found out the the scientists have had their theories about the universe which I was required to learn in public school, debunked. Amazing how they keep changing what they say is the way it is, and I am supposed to take their word for it that their ever-changing “facts” overturn the acceptability of Genesis.Even if I didn’t believe the Bible, just based on what naturalistic evolution scientists themselves have been pontificating for the last 100 years, I would not consider them reliable.

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  71. Alan writes of “wider scientific truth” and “scientific facts” that need to be included by our educational institutions in their classes. It’s one thing to present them as information held by many/most people so the students know how to deal with such issues, but quite another to support them and teach that those issues/”truths”/”facts” supercede clear Biblical statements to the contrary which refute them.

    Alan also writes, “God expects us all to keep studying His word and His WORLD, not regurgitate the truths we know, but find new ways of understanding and thinking that applies to current world, day, and age.”
    Stating, or “regurgitating,” as Alan put it, what we’ve believed about such things as a literal six days of Creation doesn’t make those beliefs wrong. Granted, we might do well to present these beliefs in new ways to better appeal to our current world, but we ought not change our beliefs while doing so. Rather than adding more questions about the truth of the Genesis account, some of the relatively latest scientific discoveries are providing answers — such as the discovery of soft tissue found in T. rex bones. Might we learn newer things in the Creation versus Evolution controversy? Of course. But any such new information will not, can not, discount what God has made clear regarding the subject.

    Might there be questions about such things as what is meant by the earth being “without form and void” at that first day of Creation? I believe so. But there’s no need — after examining the Biblical statements based on sound exegesis of the Hebrew and reviewing all the scientific evidence available to the open mind — for questioning, for example, whether the Creation days were literal 24-hour time periods or, instead, a thousand-plus years long. (Please refer to my June 1 post.) Truth can withstand the closest of scrutiny, and so I say, Bring it on! (I humbly admit I am not a scientist but one who, like anyone with an open mind, an honest heart, a prayerful attitude, a concordance, and an Internet connection, can clearly see what “the truth” really is, and isn’t.)

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  72. One of my favorite internet sites is Nasa’s Hubble pictures. Going there this week I found out the the scientists have had their theories about the universe which I was required to learn in public school, debunked. Amazing how they keep changing what they say is the way it is, and I am supposed to take their word for it that their ever-changing “facts” overturn the acceptability of Genesis.Even if I didn’t believe the Bible, just based on what naturalistic evolution scientists themselves have been pontificating for the last 100 years, I would not consider them reliable.  (Quote)

    As you have stated, no one knows or even claims to know how the universe was created, except those who believe in God’s Word. Is God a liar? I don’t think so!

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  73. I was 33 years old when I left the “world” of atheism, drugs, alcohol (etc) and started reading the Bible. I fell in love with it cover to cover, old testament and new; but had one problem – where was the church that REALLY preached what the Bible stated?

    I had never heard of Seventh-day Adventists until one day I happened to start working with one (fate? I don’t think so!). Here was a church that preached, to me, EVERYTHING the Bible states. Yes I had problems at the beginning with the perception of Ellen White as a “prophetess” and remember trying to dispute that claim by comparing the Desire of Ages to the Biblical record. I would say that 99% was totally accurate and the other 1%, while not found directly in the Bible can be justified by the Bible writers.

    I stand as one not seeking to justify SDA doctrines but as nothing more than Biblical ones. I realize that others can claim the same story, that their reading of the Bible did just the opposite, drove them away from SDA doctrines. On the Day of Judgment we will each stand before the all seeing eye of One who will make known why we choose the way we did and the real reasons behind our decisions.

    As I read these statements I am glad for the ones who chose to leave rather than “change” the church though I am at the same time sad that they made the decision to turn from what they feel are the unjustifiable conclusions made by other Christians over why SDA doctrines are unorthodox. I make no theological conclusions here as that only breeds argument, the best recommendation is to ask Jesus to totally clear our minds of ALL preconceived notions and start from the Bible with a mind to learn His truths.

    God help us to be unyielding in our stand and defiance of Truth yet compassionate for those that differ from us – until one or the other seeks to stand directly in the way of others and their salvation then we are compelled to stand as Jesus did against the leaven of the Pharises, Sadducees, and Herodians that search the world for proselytes only to make them twice a child of hell such as themselves.

    LSU as made a decision that is not yet unrevokable though they have not yielded to the right side yet (evolution? please! At a time when other scientists are coming over to the truth of creation, Adventists are trying to say Evolution is correct). Ellen White wrote when this time as come we are to sell it off to the world, this also is not being done. While the headship of the church moans the results, what are they actually doing to right the wrongs? Nothing! (thank God the Michigan Conference is though!)

    I love my church as the church of Biblical prophecy but fully realize that as the church militant, she is dying from internal wounds other than what is going on at LSU. As God stated, the whole head is sick. We must stick together, seek to put godly men in positions of trust, point out error and sin wherever found, and pray for the Lords guidance until He comes. God help us!

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  74. There is some serious irony in the Michigan Conference reprimanding LSU for teaching modern, and widely accepted, scientific principals. I think that this shows just how out of touch many church leaders are with their parishioners. If the church is not going to accept those of us who have room in our hearts for faith and science, the pews will be nearly empty within 20 years. How’s that for evolution?

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  75. m, no one is reprimanding LSU for teaching modern scientific principles. Indeed the Mi. Conference is all for these things, but what they are standing against is our teachers teaching those things as true that the Bible teaches us are untrue. Evolution teaches that God deceived us and is a liar, in fact ultimately it tries to prove there is no God.

    If our churches pews are nearly empty in 20 years but we have stood true to God then I say praise God for those who have remained true to Him.

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  76. @-m:

    I hope the church pews will be “burned up” in twenty years, but if time should last, I, by the grace of God, will be seated in one!

    Remember, “…broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat…” (Matthew 7:13) Only eight were saved in the flood… and they didn’t believe the “modern, and widely accepted, scientific principles.” Besides, evolution is NOT a scientific principle.
    Be careful the ground you tread…

    “Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve Him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:14-15)

    Lee Folkman
    http://www.NarrowWayMedia.org

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  77. To all those interested in the “truth” about evolution.

    Visit amazingdiscoveries.org and view the testimony of Walter Veigh.
    He is a Zoologist (a Ph.D Scientist), a staunch evolutionist who dared to truly review the “evidence” and as a result became an SDA creationist.

    In mathematical and biological terms, evolution is impossible. Read the book “Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome” by Dr. John Sanford – available at Amazon.com

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  78. …In mathematical and biological terms, evolution is impossible. Read the book “Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome” by Dr. John Sanford – available at Amazon.com  

    Miguel, You’re absolutely correct. There is simply no empirical evidence for evolution occurring or empirical mechanism for how it would have occurred. Numerous books have been written on this subject by zoologists, mathematicians, geneticists, and others.

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  79. If the theory of evolution is true, then the bible is a book of fairy tales. How could anyone trust anything it says?

    The bible states that God cannot lie. If man evolved from lower species, then Adam was not created from dust as stated in Genesis. And since the lower species died before Adam evolved, death existed before sin. Worshiping the Trinity would be no different than worshiping Zeus, Poseidon, or Baal.

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  80. I am thankful for the stand that the Michigan Conference has taken. Praise God for leaders that are forward thinking and not afraid to take a stand! I pray that other conferences will do the same. God bless the leadership in the Michigan Conference!

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  81. @David Smith:

    If the theory of evolution is true, then the bible is a book of fairy tales. How could anyone trust anything it says?

    The bible states that God cannot lie.

    no wonder then that 3SG 90-91 calls theistic evolutionism the worst form of infidelity.

    in Christ,

    Bob

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  82. This is devastating to me and my family. My dad has worked at La Sierra for nearly 20 years. The employee tuition benefits are a benefit that makes up for the low pay the employees receive. We have planned on those benefits to get through college, since my dad’s pay was insufficient for college savings over the years, and now that me and by 2 siblings are finally in college are benefits are to be taken away as a result of the Michigan Committee action.

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  83. I praise the Michigan Conference for taking some sort of stand on this issue but ask the question why can they not simply close the college if those running it will not conform to church beliefs. I know with modern labour laws that sacking them could be difficult. However, I wonder why this could not be got around by just closing it?

    Looking at the bigger picture, I am sure this sort of thing has been pending for some time since the decision in 1931 (or about) to go for accreditation with Catholic/wordly universities.

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  84. Why is it that La Sierra would base their science on the minds of men-(Evolution) and not on the mind of our Creator God? Why believe in God at all? God rules all because He is our Creator. The only reason men are so desparate to believe in Evolution is because they do not want to answer to anyone but themselves. The other thing that disturbs me in the teachings at La Sierra is their teaching on how to interpret the Bible. By allowing as much leeway as possible in interpretation we can become our own authority on truth. Do they think that they are so much more intelligent than our Creator? Just because we don’t have intelligence as high as God and therefore do not understand how God could create our Universe in seven days does not mean that he did not do it. I have seen better arguments for Intelligent Design on websites such as answersingenesis.com than I have ever heard from Evolution. I would never allow my child to attend such an institution-you might as well attend a secular school. In an attempt to undermine our Creator and His Bible, La Sierra is upholding humanism and is no better than a secular college.

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  85. Great! Removing La Sierra from the list for subsidy will only make a martyr out of the school administration. And that tends to make a cause stronger. The SDA Michican conference is doing more harm to itself than good.

    Now, should La Sierra teach Evolution? You bet! Not teaching evolution from an evolutionary perspective leaves many Christians ignorant of what Evolutionary theory is. — And let’s face it! Most SDAs don’t even understand Evolution!

    As a SDA (in name only), I think the teaching of Evolution (from the evolutionary perspective, and NOT a Creationist perspective) is actually a good thing because it will show the students WHAT the theory and fact of Evolution say. Not allowing them to learn it is only going to leave them ignorant.

    Punishing La Sierra is not a good idea, in short.

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  86. Kris,

    Teaching about evolution is very different from espousing it. That’s what one or more La Sierra professors reportedly are doing, and that’s the crux of the whole discussion here. Theistic evolution is being taught, and La Sierra is permitting it.

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  87. @krissmith777:

    Great liberal minds always think the same, they can judge the outcome. Outcome based decisions ignore principled decisions. Christ on the cross could not see through the grave, a great example of a principled decision!
    Thank you Michigan for standing on principle.

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  88. @krissmith777: Great liberal minds always think the same, they can judge the outcome. Outcome based decisions ignore principled decisions. Christ on the cross could not see through the grave, a great example of a principled decision!Thank you Michigan for standing on principle.  (Quote)

    I am not a liberal.

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  89. I am just getting into this discussion for a variety of reasons.

    However, as someone who has attended Michigan Conference campmeetings the past 6 years or so and had questions regarding their stance on Adventist issues I am greatly relieved to see this response from the Michigan Conference Executive Committee.

    The only problem is that we aren’t losing our youth in college. Too many of them are attending college already uncertain or unsure of what they believe or what we as a church believes.

    We cannot afford to make this a “Christian” issue. We are Seventh-day Adventist Christians. The belief in Christ is supposed to be understood. We don’t need anyone to tell us to believe in Jesus or we’re not Adventist. The issue here is those doctrines which make us uniquely Adventist.

    Evolution is taught in our schools from elementary through college. The elementary and middle school textbooks introduce it as a world concept. They discuss Pangea and a world-wide flood and give scientific evidence coupled with scriptural support to the topic of creationism vs. evolutionism.

    The reality of the situation is that too many of our instructors are unwilling to simply teach the subject matter. We all have opinions and agendas and will push both at all cost – even the salvation of the students we are teaching.

    We can no longer afford to claim that “the law is unimportant and all we need is love.” It is time for us to stand for what we believe. The placating of people with “peace and love” is no longer enough, and we are starting lose members and become Laodecia.

    If only more conference leadership would take the stand that Gallimore and the Michigan Conference Executive Committee took we might actually look and act like a united denomination rather than splintered, fractured, broken pieces pulling against one another. It’s rather like a ship fighting against itself. At some point all the pieces will break apart and the entire manifest will drowned.

    We have a choice to make. Either we’re right and God’s a liar OR God’s right and we’ve made some grave errors in interpretation, understanding and yielding our will to Him. It’s a pretty simple thing. It’s all about our loyalty!!

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  90. Pingback: Walla Wall University: Collegian Issue on Evolution vs. Creation | Educate Truth

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