Comment on Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’ by Sean Pitman.
You do realize that God most certainly answers prayers for Hindus, Muslims, Latter-day Saints, etc… right? An answer to prayer is not, however, evidence that the individual’s view on this or that Holy Book is really valid. Your answered prayers, and mine as well, seem to be very good evidence of the existence of a God or God-like presence in the universe. However, evidence for the existence of God, by itself, is not evidence for the Bible being the true Word of God, much less the SDA interpretation of the Bible being the most valid interpretation. – Sean Pitman
Really, now, God honors people of other religions, even non-Christian ones? The next thing you’re going to tell me is that people from these other religions are going to be saved too!
Absolutely! I’ve been saying that all along. Knowledge, by itself, does not have the power to save. It is the love of the truth, not the actual finding of the truth, that saves. This doesn’t make knowledge unimportant however as true knowledge does have the power to provide a solid hope in the future and to make lives better here and now.
I guess that shows how important it is to be right about which Holy book is the right one. I am reminded of a quote by Leonard Sweet, “It’s the same truth whether from the mouth of Jesus or the ass of Balaam.†What all this tells me is that God is overwhelmingly interested in having a relationship with me, even if I don’t quite have the exactly right picture of Him. And isn’t this the message we want our young people to hear?
God can and will save the honestly and sincerely ignorant as well as the most informed who have a love of truth… who do not deliberately reject what little is consciously known to be true. However, this does not mean that we should take lightly the truth that God has revealed to us so far. Many people have died to preserve the truths found in the Bible so that we can have them today as a basis of hope. People can be and will be saved without ever having heard of the Bible or the Gospel message. Yet, how much better it would have been for them in this life if they had been given this information?
So, again, while knowledge doesn’t save, it is still very important to God that we spread true information about Him throughout the world.
A college education is not so much for the indoctrination of our young people, as it is for an expanding of their vision of the world from the SDA perspective. part of that is realizing what a diverse church we are.
Those claiming to be SDA range from those who actually believe all of the SDA fundamentals to those who don’t believe any of them… who are just in the Church for social reasons and nothing more. Those who don’t actually believe in the Church ideals and goals simply would not serve the Church well in the capacity of official representatives. If you really want an education from the “SDA perspective” you have to hire those who actually believe in the SDA perspective – i.e., the perspective of the organized SDA Church as a body of believers.
You forget that the Church is actually an organization with a unified set of doctrinal beliefs. If you are not in line with these clearly stated goals and ideals, how can you be an effective representative of such?
Believe it or not, Sean, there are people in our church who are very committed, vibrant, active members of the SDA church who are theistic evolutionists.
Such are not “committed” to certain clearly stated fundamental goals and ideals of the SDA Church. Claiming to be suportive of the Church is not the same thing as actually supporting what the Church is trying to accomplish as an organization.
I also believe that some of our young people fall into this category. If we weed out all our professors who just might believe a little differently than the party line, where will these students find leaders that can relate to them, that can be examples for them. Their faith could be much more easily shaken if we marginalize those, whether professors or students, who believe a little differently.
We aren’t talking about minor differences of opinion here. We are talking about those who are publicly attacking and otherwise undermining the clearly stated fundamental goals and ideals of the SDA Church as an organization.
If these positions really aren’t “fundamental” to the SDA Church, the Church shouldn’t call them “fundamental”.
Of course, you might say, such individuals would be better off in another church. How callous! What other church believes that the Sabbath is the Seventh Day and that the Lord is returning soon? Seventh-Day Baptists maybe?
Quite a few organizations believe in the Seventh-day Sabbath and the soon comming of Jesus. However, even if there were no such organizations, this does not give someone a right to expect a paycheck from the SDA Church to go around publicly attacking the Church’s goals and ideals. If they don’t like these “fundamentals”, they should start their own organization and get people to support them who are actually willing to pay them to teach their non-SDA ideas…
Don’t forget, there are social reasons to stay as an SDA too and these are totally valid. We worship as a community for a reason. We are social beings. Many who have grown up in the church would find their faith uprooted if they needed to leave the church.
It is fine if a person likes hanging around with SDAs… for social reasons. It isn’t fine for a person who wants to publicly attack and undermine SDA goals and ideals to do so on the Church’s dime.
Let’s not forget the reason for this site in the first place, to bring the situation at LSU to the attention of the church and its leaders. That has been accomplished. The second reason for this site to continue to exist would seem to me to be a place to discuss the issues, which should avoid continuing to crucify those professors or leaders that, in your opinion, are teaching falsely. Paul wrote two letters to the church in Corinth and then let the leaders deal with it. I doubt they did a perfect job, but Paul did not continue to rail against them. Maybe ET should do the same.
I’m sure Paul would have spoken up whenever necessary and for as long as necessary to counter the insideous insinuation of doctrinal errors within the early Church. We are not called to sit back and do nothing as people attack the Church from within. This has been going on for decades now unchecked to any substantial degree. Things need to change…
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Sean Pitman Also Commented
Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Phil Mills:
One of these frequent posters claims to be a Young Earth Creationists, but believes in creation based on what he refers to as “faith.†One could get the idea that he fears that anything scientifically shown to support creation is actually bad since it would then somehow require less faith to believe. His faith, however, is more akin to the Catholic student who is reported to have said, “Faith is what you believe that you know ain’t so.â€
This is not Biblical faith. Neither is it the faith of the Adventist pioneers. It certainly doesn’t build faith, it actually destroys genuine faith. This pseudofaith more closely resembles a mere superstitious belief. It is no surprise that agnostics, evolutionists, and other doubters have such an affinity for those who possess this kind of “faith†on this site. Why wouldn’t they agree with it. It doesn’t threaten them in any way. It bolsters their ranks. It confirms their unbelief since they already believe faith is unreasonable.
I couldn’t have said it better myself…
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Professor Kent:
Of course it’s a good thing; I never said it was bad. The problem is when you and Pitman maintain that empirical evidence from nature is essential to validate the Bible–and that is heresy and blasphemy.
You yourself made this “blasphemous” claim when you listed off several empirical evidences, like fulfilled prophecy (based on empirical investigation of real history), as reasons why you believe the Bible to be superior to other books claiming to be the true Word of God.
Here is what you wrote:
In short, there is ample evidence to support the Bible and Christianity, including fulfilled prophecy, the lives and testimony of the apostles, archeology, the impact of the Bible on personal lives, and so forth. All of this is “empirical evidence†that goes beyond what is needed to establish the validity of scripture. The other religions are confronted with serious shortcomings on these issues, in my opinion… – Professor Kent
Now, if the Holy Spirit is enough, as the Latter-day Saints believe, to lead you into all truth without having to use your brain, why did you appeal to these empirical evidences to support your belief or faith in the superior credibility of the Bible vs. other competing options held in higher regard by other faiths? Why didn’t you just appeal to the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking directly to you as evidence enough?
So, the argument here isn’t really over the need for an empirical basis for one’s faith in the Bible before it can be considered rational. You yourself appeal to such. You admit to the need for an empirical argument as the basis for choosing the Bible over other competing options. You’ve made this argument several times now. Therefore, the real argument here is in regard to your notion that the empirical basis, or “weight of empirical evidence” for faith never changes or needs to be re-examined in any way over time – despite the discovery of new evidence and information?
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@krissmith777:
You missed my overall point. The first sentence I quoted from it was: The rates at which sediments accumulate vary enormously, owing to the natural variability of the processes that produce and transport sediments. — The rates vary greatly depending on the conditions… Your argument pre-supposes that the rate has not changed, and you have not demonstrated that it has. — And frankly, it doesn’t have to be.
You misunderstand the “rate” that the author is talking about here. This rate is not the overall rate of ocean sedimentation which is in fact fairly constant at ~30 billion tons per year. I’ve already tried to explain this to you, but the variability your reference is talking about is the local variability that is indeed due to many factors of sediment transport within the oceans themselves. This local variability does not affect the overall sediment load that is consistently delivered to the oceans.
— David E. Thomas says it much better than I ever could:
…much sediment never gets to the ocean floor, but is trapped instead on continental slopes and shelves, or in huge river deltas. Over the years, some of these continental slopes can accumulate several kilometers of sediment, while others can even become part of mountain ranges in continental plate-to-plate collisions. Neither erosion nor subduction are expected to be constant processes over millions of years, and they are simply not good clocks.
Indeed, and my calculations take into account all the sediment currently in the oceans, to include the sediment on continental slopes and shelves and river deltas. The total amount of sediment, taking all of these factors into account, is only 10^17 tons. That tonnage can be explained in just 15 million years. That’s a huge problem for mainstream theories of plate tectonics and the proposed age of ocean basins. Your arguments about the variability of sedimentation for different parts of the ocean floor are completely irrelevant to explaining the total tonnage that is currently in the oceans regardless of its location.
I heard one geologist call it a “crude†dating method. Looks more related to “relative dating,†not “absolute dating.â€
Again, you’re looking at local rates of accumulation over time, not the overall rate of accumulation over time. You’re confusing two separate concepts here. They aren’t the same thing.
Again, that is completely irrelevant to the point that the total amount of sediment, the total tonnage that is current in the oceans, irrespective of its location within the ocean basins, can be explained given just 15 million years… – Sean Pitman
And the paper I linked a while ago using the current rate gave the figure of 100 million years: (“At a rate of 0.5 cm (.2 in)/1000 years, it takes only 100 million years to accumulate 500 m (1600 ft) of sediment,â€)
Indeed – the local rate of sediment accumulation on some areas of the ocean floor may indeed be this slow. Again, however, this is completely irrelevant to the fact that the total sediment contained by all the oceans in the whole world, to include the sediment that is on or close to the continent shelves, is far far too low for them to be nearly as old as mainstream scientists propose…
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
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I fail to see where you have convincingly supported your claim that the GC leadership contributed to the harm of anyone’s personal religious liberties? – given that the GC leadership does not and could not override personal religious liberties in this country, nor substantively change the outcome of those who lost their jobs over various vaccine mandates. That’s just not how it works here in this country. Religious liberties are personally derived. Again, they simply are not based on a corporate or church position, but rely solely upon individual convictions – regardless of what the church may or may not say or do.
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