Mack&#032Ramsy: This is fine, let’s look at your story and …

Comment on Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case by BobRyan.

Mack&#032Ramsy: This is fine, let’s look at your story and see if that makes sense.

Mack&#032Ramsy: This is fine, let’s look at your story and see if that makes sense. The creation story blatantly contradicts itself between chapters 1 and 2,

Stop the bus! Time for a break in favor of at least an ounce or two of critical thinking.

In your statement above – you seem (once again) to be revealing much more than you may have at first intended. (Kind of like your foray into the realm of intelligent design).

1. In the case above you imply that Genesis 1 and 2 is the SDA’s story as if we wrote it.

2. You unwittingly place yourself in opposition to Genesis 1 and 2 as if your gaining some kind of victory against SDAs by discrediting Genesis 1 and 2 would help your argument in some way. While I could understand that form of opposition if your claim was atheist or agnostic… but my understanding is that you are not comfortable with the atheist position nor even the agnostic one? So why do you feel compelled to oppose the text of the Bible itself?

3. I am willing to bet that “on other days” you are more than willing to admit that “SDAs did not write Genesis 1 and 2”.

And thus the book – the Bible is “not OUR story” but rather we are Bible believing Christians who claim that the Bible is the “Word of God” not “The Word of SDAs”. We did not author it. It is not our idea.

Is it your claim that SDAs are the authors of the Ten Commandments? That we wrote them – they are “our story” and so “for in SIX Days the Lord made the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them and rested the SEVENTH day” is really just “our creation story” – an SDA myth, an SDA “story”?

BTW – in your attack on Genesis 1 and 2 – you show no studied review of the text at all – no exegesis at all. Would you be just as careless with Exodus 20:11?


the flood has multiple problems such as number of animals, zoological necessities, sustainable ecology, the coming and going of all the water, the mysterious olive leaf

As usual – no reliable rendering of the text in your complaint – and nothing to back up your wild claims.

Yet you position the question as if you had a video of all conditions on earth during the world wide flood – right down to were the leaves were!!

Fascinating the amount of certainty the evolutionist will claim to have when they have no data on a given subject.

When you look at the stories, it’s quite clear that Adam and Eve and Noah and the Ark are speaking about spiritual truths not literal ones.

Not even close. The text gives us names, and families and timelines and refers the reader to geography that the reader would be aware of –

Exegesis of the text without the pre-bias of evolutionism – shows the text to be a reliable historic record – not a parable or a myth.

Hence SDA fundamental belief #1.

With the evolutionists having gone sideways starting right at “belief #1” what level of common ground does an SDA evolutionist really seek with the actual SDA denomination and it’s teaching?

Is the only path for reconciliation – that we all throw our Bible’s under the bus in true “sacrifice all for evolutionism” fashion? Is that what the evolutionist demands – so that we can come to terms when it comes to doctrine and belief?

There may well have been a regional disaster on the Mediterranean at some point, but it clearly didn’t destroy the entire world in a literal fashion. It would violate every known law of physics and biology that we know.

Total nonsense.

The idea that it is better to deny the actual words in the text of Genesis 7-8 and “pretend” that God promised Noah that no local flood would ever happen again – only serves to destroy both the Bible and trust in God.

Again I say – I would understand your solution if your intent were to argue in favor of the agnostic or atheist POV — I would have to at least applaud your consistency in that regard.

Since you seem to circle back to that position so regularly – are you trying to tell us something? Is that really where you want to go?

WE keep insisting that this is the direction that evolutionism would take the SDA church – but why are YOU so anxious to demonstrate that point for us? What is in it for you?

in Christ,


BobRyan Also Commented

Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case

Mack Ramsy:: : but the one thing we know for certain is that it was designed to change. There are so many back up and redundancies designed to make whatever changes that DNA faces to be profitable for the organism, or if their deleterious to ensure they don’t damage the subsequent generation (yes there are very complex methods for doing this) The immune system in fact does it intentionally.

Obviously the references above to “designed” and “intention” could not be overlooked by the objective unbiased reader applying a bit of critical thinking to the topic. And so my response below merely states the obvious point of agreement on a part of that post.

No wonder the application of a bit of critical thinking just then – demands that we conclude from your remarks above – that you are an example of an evolutionist that is strongly in favor of Intelligent Design. I too favor I.D.

Mack Ramsy:
Obviously the references abov

I don’t believe in ID as it’s traditionally defined. I believe that God created a system designed to evolve.

Obviously the references abov
In your earlier statement you claimed that system was designed with “redundancy and backup” features. That is not something rocks, gas and water could ever do – hence the term “Intelligent Design”.

But perhaps you have access to more highly advanced rocks, gas and water?

Also you mention “intention” as if the immune system was deliberately designed with an end goal in view.

As it turns out – it is those “intention” and “Intelligent Design” aspects (so key to your response above) that are at the very heart of I.D. enabled science were we have the freedom to “follow the data where it leads” even if it leads to a conclusion in favor of design that does not fit atheist dogma about there “being no god”.

how odd then that you seem to later back pedal on your prior observation.

Thus you seem to be in somewhat of a self-conflicted position at the moment.

At least given the content of your statements about “intent” and “backup systems” and “redundancy” designed into the systems themselves (even to the point of “error correction” as we see in the case of nucleic polypeptide amino acid chains and their chiral orientation).

Of course all that just gets us back here

Mack&#032Ramsy: My language in this forum is not formal. Try not to get caught up in semantic issues.

Out of curiosity is that statement supposed to provide a solution to just how it is that something “not designed” is able to exhibit unique design characteristics such as “back up systems” – “redundancy” – error correcting mechanism and an “immune system with intention” regarding a specific outcome or goal?

No doubt the study of biology most definitely shows us that such things are present “in nature” based on “observations in nature” – and so you are right to state it as you did.

So if you are then going to double back and reject what you just affirmed – what do you have by way of “explanation” for such a self-conflicted course?

Reaching for a solution of the form – “Pay no attention to my actual words if they do not serve to deny I.D.” does not provide as satisfactory resolution to the problem as you may have at first supposed.

in Christ,


Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case

Mack&#032Ramsy: @BobRyan Being familiar with Dawkins I’ve never known him for a loss for words.

I agree – so let’s let the reader/viewer decide if Dawkins’ answer to this softball evolution101 question is “instructive” for the objective unbiased observer:

Even more “instructive” is Dawkins’ later “explanation” that he in fact does not allow himself to be asked evolution101 by anyone but a devotee to evolutionism’s ardent cheerleader club.

It just does not get any easier than this for the objective unbiased observer!

in Christ,


Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case

Mack&#032Ramsy: I think there is some confusion about the role of science here. Science is very explicit about “proof” and “certainty” in that there isn’t any.

1. Science is all about observation and experiment. Something that the amoeba-to-horse, hyrax-to-horse, and prokaryote-to-eukaryote storytelling is lacking. Hence Pattern’s lament.

2. Science is being coopted – indeed hijacked by evolutionist-well-wishers in a thinly disguised effort to cover bad religion with a garb of “science terms” all the while destroying science.

It is interesting that even atheist evolutionists like Patterson will admit to this basic point about “doing harm to systematics” via evolutionism.

I presented you with a half dozen articles in a few minutes of searching.

There are a great many articles on a great many topics – that was not the challenge.


That said you’re right the sense that evolutionists may not have a perfect picture of how the world works,

More to the point – atheist evolutionists such as Colin Patterson are in fact correct when they lament the “revealed truth” religious nature of the argument for evolutionism.

Where time after time the evolutionist merely assumes the salient point of his argument rather than actually proving it.

Mack&#032Ramsy: That claim is
reserved by solely by creationists.

If you want an bit more of an objective view of that – you apparently cannot go to SDA evolutionists – you have to go to an atheist evolutionist like Colin Patterson who compares the creationist argument for certainty with the evolutionist argument that uses the same religious “certainty as to the fact all the while pleading ignorance as to the means”.

This is an objective up front comparison of the two groups given to us by an atheist evolutionist!

How sad that we have some SDA evolutionists that do not wish to step to that level.

Oh well – I suppose it was to be expected.
Perhaps the bar that Patterson sets for SDA evolutionists – is just too high for them.

The only “evidence” that could possibly be convincing is a notarized statement by god saying this is the way it is , which of course you believe you already have.

Indeed – the proclivity of the evolutionist to grasp the Bible by the throat in an effort to set it aside so they can make their case with more freedom – is not totally unknown to us.

in Christ,


Recent Comments by BobRyan

Strumming the Attached Strings
@David Read:

Erv Taylor is not “afraid” to post here – but he is “Afraid” to have well thought out views posted on AToday that do not flatter his agenda.

That was not news right?

in Christ,


Michigan Conference vs. LSU – Right Wing Politics or Truth in Advertising?
@John J.:

John&#032J&#046: The fact remains, any decision direction or policy made by a church, conference, union or GCEC can be reversed or changed by those they serve.

Agreed and the fact that the constituency are not voting to reverse it – is a sign that this is not merely the views of the Administration in Michigan.

As for hierarchy – there is no doctrinal authority in the administrators.

And as for administrative hierarchy – the GC leadership has no authority to dismiss rogue teachers which is one of the reasons that this particular meltdown at LSU seems to go on and on and on. It slows at times and it speeds up at other times – but the fire is not simply put out.

in Christ,


A “Christian Agnostic”?

ken:: Let’s continue shall we. You posit that Adam and Eve were producing telomerase as adults as a result of eating fruit from the tree of life. Would you agree that the production of adult telomerase was a direct result of the environment or did the gene(s) affecting production of the a enzyme as adults mutate in their progeny?

1. I never stated whether the fruit from the Tree of Life provided the telemerase enzyme or simply provided a trigger enzyme/protein that caused Adam and Eve to produce Telemerase. Either way the end result was the same.

2. The salient point is that we have a known mechanism that affects the aging of cells starting with new borns.

This is simply “observation in nature” given in response to your question about an observed mechanism in humans for the 900 year life span the Bible mentions.

It is hard to “do the study” without having them under observation.

1. But it is not hard to see the gradual decline in ages over time.

2. It is not hard to see the Bible declare that access to the Tree of Life was the determining factor.

3. It is not hard to see that even in humans today – the ability remains for us to produce telemerase – but we quickly lose that ability.

4. It is not hard to see what effect that has on the telomeres of infants.

The list of knowns for this mechanism are far more impressive than the “I imagine a mechanism whereby static genomes acquire new coding genes not already present and functioning in nature and that this happens for billions of years”.

Ken: Hi BobWe are making good progress!Thanks for your admitting thaf we do not have Adam and Eve or their progeny under observation to do the study.

My pleasure.

Let’s look at the empirical results of your observation. There is no physical evidence that the progeny or descendants lived to 900 years, right? Thus there is no physical evidence that the tree of life provided longevity through the increased production or activation of telermerase right?

There is evidence that a mechanism does exist whereby access to an enzyme would in fact affect the aging process of human cells.

That mechanism is observed in nature to be related to the enzyme Telemerase.

There is a ton of evidence that food contains enzymes and proteins and that the human body can produce enzymes in response to the presence of trigger proteins and enzymes.

It is irrefutably true that humans still today produce telemerase in the case of infants just before birth. Impossible to deny it – though you seem to want to go down that dead end road.

You asked about the “mechanism” that can be observed today that would account for long ages of life recorded in the Bible.

You now seem to be pulling the classic “bait and switch” asking for the video of the people living for long ages before the flood.

Nice try —

As I said before – your method is along the lines of grasping at straws in a true “any ol’ exuse will do” fashion.

in Christ,


SDA Darwinians compromise key church doctrines
Rev 21 does not say the planet has no light – it says the City has no NEED of light from the Sun.

The inconvenient deatils point to the fact that the New Earth will have a Sun and Moon but the New Jerusalem will have eternal day due to the light of God’s presence.

This is not the hard part.

in Christ,


Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation
@Professor Kent:

I think Ellen White was inspired and was a tremendous asset to the Church. However, I believe God allowed her to insert personal opinion in much of her writings, and to err.

Is that your view of the gift of prophecy mentioned in 1Cor 12? Is that how Moses, Peter, John and Paul wrote in your thinking?

Which parts were just their own mistaken ideas and which parts are the actual Word of God in your view?

in Christ,