By Educate Truth Staff
When David Asscherick’s letter appeared on the web in May 2009, it was not widely known that La Sierra University biology professors were promoting the theory of evolution, and excluding the evidence for a recent creation. The news was met with much caution from the LSU Board of Trustees. Responses ranged from “I believe that this issue needs our prayers, more than ever before” to “I believe that our professors need to continue to grow in their understanding of the expectations we hold for faith” to “I’m not interested in being a part of a witch hunt.”
While many others believed the initial allegations, there were still many who questioned its validity. A common response was “they are teaching evolution, but strong evidence in favor of a recent creation is also being presented.” However, as we’ve learned since then, this is entirely untrue.
President Randal Wisbey took a slightly different approach in his response to Asscherick’s letter: “We reject this implied atheistic charge. Every one of our science faculty share the goal of students experiencing a vibrant Adventist Christian faith while pursuing their education in the sciences.”
Wisbey’s defense was, “The professors are not atheistic.” However, such an allegation was never made, and Wisbey succeeded in not addressing the real issue.
Soon after Wisbey’s letter, the evidence began to surface. Students at LSU began sending class syllabi and presentations for the public to see on Educate Truth. After further digging, two things became clear: at least four of the biology professors expressed their personal belief in the theory of evolution, and openly taught it in their classrooms, as the “single unifying explanation of the living world…” (McCloskey).
In June 2009, Louie Bishop published his experience with the biology department. He said:
[One biology professor] talked about the Biblical Creation accounts in detail [at a worship breakout], and concluded that Genesis chapters 1 and 2 are contradictory accounts. The message I received was a message of doubt toward the Bible, which is no doubt what many other students were led to feel. I can now believe this is happening on a Seventh-Day Adventist campus, because I’ve seen it with my own eyes!
It is a fact that Evolution is being taught and promoted by professors of Biology on the La Sierra University campus. They are obviously welcome to hold such views, yet I believe they have come to the wrong place to promote those beliefs.
Since this controversy has been made public, LSU has given no evidence its professors are presenting creation positively in their science classes, or at all. Bishop said, “[O]nly Evolution is presented and studied at an objective level. My teacher this quarter has spoken openly of the glory of God in nature, and for that I am thankful! But evidence for a young-age earth, in support of the Biblical account, is not presented for study. The objective support of the Bible is not touched on.”
Carlos Cerna, 2009 LSU alumnus, recently said of his experience in the senior biology capstone class:
Whenever the topic of Creation would come up (from a student, not a professor) the student would be “attacked” by one or both of the professors, and there was a lot of deriding, belittling, and ridiculing in their retorts to the idea of Creation. So I believe that whether or not Creation was mentioned in that class, it was not something to be taken as plausible in any shape, case, form, or fashion.
Teresa Regester, mother of former LSU student AJ, pulled her kid out: “I did contact the President’s office at La Sierra and told the nice lady I spoke with what my concerns were, and that our son would not be attending there any more.”
Maritess Gay Asumen, a former teacher’s assistant said:
Yes, I can attest that La Sierra University teaches and advocates for evolution. In fact I took many of these classes from professed evolutionist professors. I was the teacher’s assistant for many of these classes and was influenced to some degree. I think the church should stand up for its beliefs, because it makes the students very confused and frustrated. These non-SDA beliefs are not only found in biology classes, but also taught in the school of religion and many core classes that students are required to take in order to graduate. NSCI (scientific foundation courses) 405, 406 and 407 are some of the classes.
Ezequiel Vasquez said: “I attended LSU and I am fully aware of the controversy first hand. As I attended LSU I was a fresh convert to not only Adventism but Christianity. The debate on this issue really shook my foundation, because I didn’t expect it. I was not taught evolution as a competing theory, but as the only valid one.”
There are more students with similar stories.
Does LSU’s promotion of the theory of evolution sound neutral? These testimonies clearly show how students are being affected.
In a letter to Wisbey, Carlos Cerna said:
When I came to La Sierra University and began studying evolution, my thinking was, “yeah right, this ridiculous theory I’ve heard all my life, ‘that we come from monkeys,’ is plain ridiculous.”
Well, Dr. Wisbey, it’s hard for me to admit it, and I don’t even like talking about it, but when I studied the theory, as it was presented in class, plus the studying of the books for the class, I actually started questioning Creation myself. I’ll never forget it. I would say to myself, “now Carlos, you know that this is all junk,” but at the same time Dr. Wisbey, I was reading the data from the Biology book, and getting indoctrinated by the faculty so much that I genuinely and sincerely had started to question Creation.
I also remember asking myself, “if Creation was in the Bible and it didn’t actually take place the way it’s written, then what else could there be in the Bible that is false.” To put it bluntly, I questioned the Bible, religion and the existence of God.
It is not guaranteed students who are presented the theory of evolution as fact will struggle with their faith or even lose it. However, why does it seem La Sierra is willing to take the risk? For the professors who teach these classes, the answer is because they believe what they are teaching is truth. The university has not admitted this much, so we can only speculate why they continue to support the promotion of evolution.
Alfredo Lee, a pastor in the Southeastern California conference, feels frustrated and betrayed by La Sierra University. In a note to Educate Truth last year, Pastor Lee said, “My daughter is a major in Biology at La Sierra this summer. She told me at least three years ago about this situation. Sadly, now she believes in evolution, as some of her teachers at La Sierra. I am a pastor, and I sent my daughter to a Christian and Adventist University, never expecting this. I feel frustrate and betrayed.”
Others have said their lack of belief in a recent, six-day creation was due in part to their education at LSU. According to Julie Cook, a non-Adventist student once told her that she no longer believed in the creation week because of LSU. Cook said, “Not only did the school have a responsibility to uphold Adventist doctrine, but to protect the faith of all Christians that attended it.”
Not only are Adventist students being influenced, but also Christians from other faiths. How ironic it is that an Adventist university is destroying the faith of other Christians in a recent, six-day creation. Chris, a former student at LSU, said last year he walked out of the biology class because of the unbiblical things the professor was saying. Other students have resorted to sleeping through class in order “not to lose their salvation,” according to Michelle Doucoumes.
Adventist parents are well aware of the potential dangers of having the theory of evolution promoted at an Adventist university, but many are still unaware of the situation at LSU. Here are reactions of parents to LSU’s promotion of evolution:
My daughter is attending LSU and is a biology major. I home schooled her all her life and raised her in the Adventist belief. I had no idea when I put her in to La Sierra that they would be teaching evolution as truth. I am so disappointed and sad. They have raised doubt in her mind. -Cynthia Salvador
I have two granddaughters now attending La Sierra and one is now questioning Creation. My prayers are for the people who allowed these professors to have a captive audience. -Verah Huso
Although I graduated from LSU, I am not comfortable sending my daughters to learn this brand of science. They have attended public community college for their first 2 years and have learned enough about evolutionary theory. I expect our Adventist education system to show how science strongly supports short creation and a Master Designer. -Marlin Gimbel
When my children are ready for college, we will be looking for a school that teaches Biblical principles. -Andrea Griggs
We have a daughter at Southern, and will soon have a son there also. I would be furious if we were to find out that our children were charged the enormous tuition fees for classes that misrepresent Biblical truths. They can receive THAT kind of education anywhere, … and for much less expense. We expect MORE from our educational institutions than what one would find elsewhere. -Taletha Robinson
My daughter went to La Sierra. When I discovered they were teaching naturalistic evolution – I transferred her to Pacific Union College. The transfer was for this reason alone! -Karen McPherson
My daughter is preparing to attend La Sierra University in a few weeks and I am very concerned to hear that evolution is being taught there. The reason I am sending her to an Adventist college is to keep her away from this apostasy. If I hear it affects her curriculum I will remove her. -David Hunzelman
My daughter is a senior at Great Lakes Adventist Academy. She is now looking for a college to attend. La Sierra is now off that list! -Patricia McClain
And the list goes on and on of parents who have discovered what is being taught at LSU and are appalled, no longer interested in sending their kids there.
What is LSU more concerned with, preserving and building the faith of their students or employing evolutionary biologists? The only action LSU has taken to address this issue was creating a one-unit seminar class for freshman. Ironically, the professors teaching the class are the very ones promoting evolution. This seminar class had absolutely no affect on the classes and professors called into question, besides increasing the workload of students and teachers.
How long of a list must be complied of students whose faith has been destroyed by the promotion of evolution at LSU? One student? Five students? Ten? The LSU biology department has ceased to be an adequate representative of the Seventh-day Adventist Church’s belief in a recent, six-day creation. If LSU is unwilling to meet the needs of its constituency and to align itself with the biblical teaching of creation, then it is left to the Pacific Union, North American Division, and General Conference to do their part in assuring that Adventists get what they pay for.
The church is going to lose much more than a few professors if LSU goes unchecked. It will continue losing a generation of youth. Enough is enough. This is not a time to pander to the whims of a few, who blatantly defy the historicity of Genesis. This is not the time to let these professors linger in our classrooms, while failed attempts at redeeming them are made, and more souls are being lost. Those who have the responsibility and power to influence LSU must exercise their God-given leadership for the sake of LSU and its students.
February 7, 2010
Different times, different circumstances demand altered approaches. Touching the Lord’s annointed is one thing. Joining forces with God’s annointed is another. Let us not forsake godly discernment. We must lend our support to those who demonstrate by their deeds and words that they are annointed, that they are clearly and irrevocably on the Lord’s side. There is no virtue or call to support those who cannot bring themselves to stand stiffly for principle. Our words are apparently not enough to move or impress administration. I feel certain that a drastic redirection of funds will give us the only effective means at our disposal to communicate our support for those who are decidedly on the Lord’s side.
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February 7, 2010
What is the best thing, the greatest thing we can do for our leaders — pray for them or send them our tithe — when they fail to the most basic Biblical principles? Obviously, prayer and earnest supplication must be made to the Most High, so that a mighty angel will be sent from the throne of God so that the issue will stand forth to their minds with stark simplicity and clarity. This is the most wonderful thing we can do for them. Our tithe is by comparison and minor consideration, but it is the little we have, and perhaps God will multiply it’s effect and use the redirection of it to help simplify the “complex” issues at hand for the confused administrators.
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February 7, 2010
Patrick: “Different times, different circumstances demand altered approaches.”
Bible reference please.
The Bible says, “And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.” Jeremiah 29:7
“For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” Matthew 6:21
Patrick: “Touching the Lord’s anointed is one thing. Joining forces with God’s anointed is another.”
Are there no forces working for God at the P.U.C. at all? Are all ministers in Michigan doing God’s will?
Patrick: “We must lend our support to those who demonstrate by their deeds and words that they are anointed, that they are clearly and irrevocably on the Lord’s side.”
Evidence please, that there no workers receiving tithe in the the P.U.C. who are God’s anointed.
Jesus praised the widow who gave her last to the overflowing treasuries of the temple under leadership of the murderers of Jesus. (Luke 21:2-3)
If there was ever a person who had the semblance of reason to withhold tithe and stop church attendance, it was Jesus of Nazareth. He didn’t.
The Bible says, “Let all things be done decently and in order.” 1 Corinthians 14:40
Patrick: “Our tithe is by comparison and minor consideration”
Our tithe is connected with our desire to pray and work because where our money is, is our heart also. Matthew 6:21
God bless,
Rich
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February 7, 2010
Sean,
By that reasoning, I conclude that Luther must have committed a terrible moral wrong.
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February 7, 2010
I don’t think the Church has failed to deal with the science issues. The SDA Church is based on a belief in a certain type of biblical inspiration… regardless of the opinion of mainstream scientists.
Church leaders like Hammill and Cottrell who have been convinced of the errors of certain doctrines held to be “fundamental” by the SDA Church are certainly welcome to their opinions. They just don’t have the automatic right to be paid for these opinions by the Church. Beyond this, the Church, as an organization, has actually considered their arguments and has come to a decision which opposes the views of Hammill and Cottrell.
You argue that the Church hasn’t come to this decision with enough thought and careful consideration. You are also welcome to this opinion, but the fact remains that the SDA Church, as an organization, has indeed come to a decision.
What is “simple” here is that a paid representative should be held accountable to the decisions of the organization – regardless of if you think that decision, or the process by which it was made, was correct. That’s how viable organizations work. Viable organizations simply do not stand by hiring employees who go about undermining the decisions made by the organization.
If you don’t like the decision of the organization, you are perfectly free to go elsewhere. However, you do not have the moral right to continue to take your paycheck from the organized Church whose clearly stated goals you are actively undermining – - on the Church’s dime. You just don’t have that right… regardless of how “complex” you personally think the issue may be…
But, you complain that it isn’t right to single out LSU. I agree. Any paid representative who is taking money from the SDA Church while going about actively undermining a stated fundamental position of the Church should not be kept in the employ of the Church…
Sean Pitman
http://www.DetectingDesign.com
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February 7, 2010
Nice try, but the Church of Luther’s day was the only option. One couldn’t simply leave the Catholic Church to challenge it from the outside free of severe civil penalties – likely death at the stake. There simply was no “outside” of the Church in Luther’s day. He had no option but to attack the moral wrongs of the Church from within.
This is not the case today – thank God! Luther’s reformation helped to liberate civil government from Church authority. So, despite the constant comparisons of what we are doing in calling for transparency and consistency at LSU to the inquisition, this isn’t the inquisition by any stretch of the imagination. All are free to join or to leave the SDA Church at will without any fear of civil reprisals of any kind. Given the nature of the free civil society in which we live here in the great United States of America, there is no excuse for anyone to expect to get paid by the SDA Church while going about actively countering the most cherished of all fundamental positions of the Church – to include the very basis of the name Seventh-day Adventist!
I’m sorry, but the call for consistency and transparency within Church schools isn’t remotely as “complex” as you wish to make it. The need for open transparency and a move away from cognitive dissonance within our Church schools is downright obvious and simple to the candid mind…
Sean Pitman
http://www.DetectingDesign.com
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February 9, 2010
The last post says about two men Richard Hammill and Raymond Cottrell and that we should think it through when men “of this stature” have raised questions about our traditions. Sorry I don’t know these two men but they sound like they are important.
But it’s not about them. What does Jesus say? In Matthew 19: 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female. Maybe that doesn’t fly in the academic classroom, but LSU is supposed to stand for more than academics. It’s supposed to promote, teach, uplift what the Master said, what the great I AM has said in his word. What else did Jesus say? Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Translation: don’t teach impresionable young people wrong stuff.
It’s what Jesus thinks that counts. Not what men think. Faith is taking what God wrote–without thinking. Because He–the great I AM–said so.
And one more thing: do secular universities allow professors who believe in creationism/intelligent design to teach that in the classroom? Nope, they bounce them right out of there. So why is LSU so tolerant, so willing to be “pals” with evolutionists and teaching ToE?
What about other universities like Liberty University? Or Oral Roberts University? What is their policy about allowing professors to teach ToE?Anybody know?
ToE has problems (yet they teach it as fact) On the Toronto Star website, a while back, there was an article where the guy was saying that they found a hominid that led them to believe that monkeys has descended (with modification) from man!
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February 9, 2010
@Rich Constantinescu:
Rich, I think I take a bit different approach to tithe than what you do.
Yes, I do believe it is God’s, and not ours. As such, I think it is important to return it to Him. Where we differ I guess, is how exactly to return it to Him, and what it means to bring it to His storehouse. You (and many like you, it seems) believe that the organized SDA church is THE ONLY storehouse. I believe it is ONE of the storehouses, but not the only one.
Why? Because I think the Church Triumphant is not necessarily the same as the church militant, which implies that any person or group TRULY doing God’s work can be supported by the tithe, whether they are in denominational employment or not (because they are part of the church triumphant, and therefore part of God’s Storehouse).
By contrast, even if a person is in denominational employ, but they are squandering the resources returned to them, it seems like it is our responsibility to withhold resources from them, because Christ said not to cast our ‘pearls before swine’ (or some such thing). This implies thoughtful responsibility, and not being blind followers or adherents. If God wanted the resources to totally go solely to the church, I think He would have taken away the individual responsibilty, and not made us individually stewards of the wealth He has bestowed on us.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. Yes, doing all things decently and in order is appropriate too, but I think that can be done while withholding from those who are squandering the resources once available.
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February 10, 2010
JohnB: “Yes, I do believe it is God’s, and not ours. As such, I think it is important to return it to Him. Where we differ I guess, is how exactly to return it to Him, and what it means to bring it to His storehouse.”
The Bible says, “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.”
Malachi 3:8-10
God tells us in the Bible what the storehouse is.
Old Testament Revival
“But Jehoiada the priest took a chest, and bored a hole in the lid of it, and set it beside the altar, on the right side as one cometh into the house of the LORD: and the priests that kept the door put therein all the money that was brought into the house of the LORD.” 2 Kings 12:9
Storehouse = temple
Keepers of storehouse = ministers of God’s people
Old Testament Apostasy
“A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.” Malachi 1:6-7
“Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” Malachi 3:8-10
Storehouse = mine house = temple; cf. Mark 11:17
Keepers of storehouse = keepers of the temple = ministers of the LORD
Are ALL ministers in the P.U.C. unworthy of tithe? Are ALL ministers in Michigan worthy of tithe? What if Jehoida’s companions somehow were in apostasy as in Malachi’s time and it was withheld then as in Malachi’s time?
New Testament Apostasy
“But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.” Luke 20:14
“And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.” Luke 22:2
“And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.” Luke 21:1-4
Treasury = Temple
Not wicked priests receiving but God.
New Testament Revival
“Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.” Acts 4:34-37
Storehouse = Church visible
Custodians of the storehouse = Ministers
Therefore in the Bible we see God’s storehouses and custodians, the church and the leadership, both in apostasy and in revival, where we are called to “cast in unto the offerings of God.” The visible church and leadership. (Acts 4:34-37)
Does God have a visible church on earth today? Yes. Revelation 10-11; Revelation 14:6-12; Revelation 12:17.
The remnant church today that keeps the commandments of God and has the faith of Jesus’ testimony is the Seventh-day Adventist church that came from bitter disappointment as did the Christian church. John 20:13; Revelation 10:10-11; Revelation 11:1; Daniel 7:13-14.
God bless,
Rich
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February 10, 2010
Rich, here are a couple things to look at too:
“There are only two places in the world where we can deposit our treasures–in God’s storehouse or in Satan’s, and all that is not devoted to Christ’s service is counted on Satan’s side and goes to strengthen his cause.” {6T 447.2}
From this quote, God’s work (in any/all of its facets) is His storehouse. It is not limited to any one denomination (per se), but rather to God’s work at large, and to those really doing God’s work (in the broader context of His Church).
“The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.” John 4:20-23
This verse is speaking of worship, and indicates what God’s Church really is: it is composed of those who worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Yes, the SDA church is an organization ordained by God to bring a last day message, and it is ONE of the avenues to return God’s money to His storehouse. However, it is NOT the ONLY avenue for doing that.
“The tithe is set apart for a special use…. It is to be especially devoted to the support of those who are bearing God’s message to the world; and it should not be diverted from this purpose.–R. & H. Supplement, Dec. 1, 1896. {CS 103.2}”
Again, according to this quote, those that are bearing God’s message to the world are a part of God’s storehouse, in its broadest sense, whether as part of the denominational employ or not.
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February 10, 2010
“Let none feel at liberty to retain their tithe, to use according to their own judgment. They are not to use it for themselves in an emergency, nor to apply it as they see fit, even in what they may regard as the Lord’s work. . . .
“If our churches will take their stand upon the Lord’s Word and be faithful paying their tithe into His treasury, more laborers will be encouraged to take up ministerial work. More men would give themselves to the ministry were they not told of the depleted treasury.”- 9T 247, 249
“You who have been withholding your means from the cause of God, read the book of Malachi, and see what is spoken there in regard to tithe and offerings. Cannot you see that it is not best under any circumstances to withhold your tithes and offerings because you are not in harmony with everything your brethren do? The tithes and offerings are not the property of any man, but are to be used in doing a certain work for God. Unworthy ministers may receive some of the means thus raised, but dare anyone, because of this, withhold from the treasury and brave the curse of God? I dare not. I pay my tithes gladly and freely, saying as did David, ‘Of Thine own have we given Thee.’
“A selfish withholding from God will tend to poverty in our own souls. Act your part, my brethren and sisters. God loves you, and He stands at the helm. If the conference business is not managed according to the order of the Lord, that is the sin of the erring ones. The Lord will not hold you responsible for it, if you do what you can to correct the evil. But do not commit sin yourselves by withholding from God His own property. ‘Cursed be he that doeth the work of the negligently,’ or deceitfully. When persons declare that they will not pay their tithes because the means are not used as they think they ought to be, will the elder of the church or the minister sympathize with the sinners? Will he aid the enemy in his work? Or will he, as a wise man, endued with knowledge, go to work to correct the vile, and thus remove the stumbling-block? but, brethren do not be unfaithful in your lot. Stand in your place. Do not, by your neglect of duty, increase our financial difficulties.” – Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 1, pp. 27, 28 (Aug. 10, 1890)
“And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.” Luke 21:1-4
God has a people.
God bless,
Rich
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February 10, 2010
If you take on the title of SDA, you should pay your tithe monies to the organized SDA Church – otherwise, you really don’t believe that the organization of the Church itself is inspired by God and ultimately in God’s hands. It is not up to us to divert God’s money from the organization of His Church – if we in fact believe that the SDA Church organization is important to God.
Sean Pitman
http://www.DetectingDesign.com
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February 10, 2010
I don’t think we should sidetrack this over to Tithe questions on “what is the store house of the Lord”. That subject has a lot of details that can be discussed – and has nothing to do with the evolution-vs-creation debate (unless of course it could be proven that no Union, no Conference supported creation). Thus there is always a place to give tithe.
Having said that – Ellen White provided an example of giving a portion of her tithe directly to unfunded SDA ministries, and to unpaid retirees – and also commended fellow Adventists that did likewise.
There was a 1980 executive committee decision that discouraged today’s Adventists from following that same path.
But the point is – this is a large topic that would derail the focus if we dwell on it here.
in Christ,
Bob
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February 10, 2010
BobRyan: “But the point is – this is a large topic that would derail the focus if we dwell on it here.”
That is correct. Let’s find another solution for dealing with LSU besides withholding tithe.
God bless,
Rich
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February 10, 2010
Connecting this back to the discussion of evolution vs creation, and the topic thread (deal with LSU): I was in no way suggesting withholding tithe. It is God’s. I do acknowledge BobRyan’s comment about Mrs. White’s example of using tithe to pay unfunded SDA ministries, and I still think that is still legitimate in spite of the 1980 Executive committee’s decision to discourage it.
For those choosing to do this (re-directing tithe), it can be a significant means to influence the various leadership entities to act responsibly and rein in rogue institutions like LSU that have chosen to ignore established beliefs.
And I’m sorry Sean, while I do agree with you on many things, a person’s choice to not return tithe through the organized church does not mean that they believe the organization is not inspired by God. It may mean that a person feels the organization has deviated from its God-inspired directives, and thus needs influence to re-direct it back to its historical roots.
As an aside, there is also direction that tithe is a personal thing between a person and God, and is not to be compulsory in the sense that paying it should not be enforced by the church (that doesn’t mean it isn’t obligatory, but just not compulsory….and there is a difference…mainly, that the accountability is to God alone….which makes me wonder why the church makes it a test for employment, which is totally contrary to the directive by Mrs. White that it not be compulsory).
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February 10, 2010
“And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.”
Luke 22:2; cf. Luke 20:14
“And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.” Luke 21:1-4
God bless,
Rich
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February 10, 2010
Rich, What should church members do if the church leadership will not rein in rogue institutions like LSU? What is happening at LSU is tragic, young and impressionable men and women are being led astray through the deceitful philosophies of men but the church leadership is not doing anything about it. The issue at LSU has been going on for years. Just imagine if this was the case of embezzelment or misappropriation of funds by someone at LSU, the board would be dragging its feet, as they are doing in this matter. Thanks.
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February 11, 2010
1. Pray, study and memorize Scripture, self-examine, confess and repent, obey and win souls to Christ and His Word.
2. Start a small group that does the same and pray short supporting prayers for at least 40 minutes for the Holy Spirit to bless members, churches, schools, hospitals, Conferences, Unions, Divisions, the General Conference. Ask God to please take the reins of each of our lives, the administrators, ministers, missions, members and schools into His own capable hands instead of pulling them away from our administrators into ours. I was praying in a group for this, asking God to convict, convert or remove any unwilling workers for Him in leadership when we were made aware of problems at LSU.
3. Pray especially for GC delegates and faithful in responsible positions who have temptations and burdens of which those who do not have no comprehension. It was easy to criticize my Dad about the finer points of a better way of raising a family…until I had my own 3-4 kids. It’s easy to criticize someone we think is not moving fast enough but there is more to the church than LSU. Back them up, don’t tear them down. Keep paying tithe to the conference if you’re a member of a conference.
4. Realize SDA Unions, not Conferences own schools such as LSU.
5. Educate for the truth. Sign petitions for the truth and plead with administrators in the name of Jesus.
A few suggestions.
God bless,
Rich
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February 19, 2010
@Carl:
You are the first person to post something non-simplistic on this website. Thank you for pointing out that science has not been well discussed and that SDA members in general have not been informed. I’m afraid your comment has not gotten any real consideration or honest argument. I appreciate you perspective. I think that the best thing for our church would be for science to be openly discussed and debates held, people allowed to speak about their findings the sources and their reasons. This is not a time for cut throat solutions, but for more open talk about science so each man and woman can decide for him or herself how she will interpret the Biblical account. It’s not simple and there is no simple solution. We must hear each other out. Everyone has the right to respectfully speak and be respectfully hear and respectfully responded to.
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February 19, 2010
@Sean Pitman, M.D.: Sean you are obviously a well educated man, but what credentials qualify you to be an authority on the Creation vs. Evolution debate. I didn’t see any on your website: http://www.detectingdesign.com/index.html
Please help.
Krisztina
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February 19, 2010
@Shane Hilde: I don’t think that the issue of science should bring up the question of church membership. If we are talking about professors teaching things that we do not believe, and the church has not made it a requirement for membership then we shouldn’t even be bringing it up, it has no place in the conversation. I call Shane on rule # 6 for not staying on topic.
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February 19, 2010
@Debbie: Boycotting is not the best solution, it seems a little simplistic to think that by not sending our kids to SDA schools that teach things that we personally don’t agree with that our children will be undefiled by evolution. We might consider strengthening our children with extracurricular science vs. evolution buttressing to supplement their college pre-high school level education so they can stand when the winds of adversity come. Get more involved and stop blaming the schools and teachers for everything.
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February 19, 2010
@BobRyan: There might be a problem with sweeping our college clean of published scientists. It’s a foundational part of our nursing and medical doctor program. And our nurses and doctors are an important part of our hospitals, medical missionaries and other forms of service that they provide.
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February 19, 2010
@Carl: “Many Adventist scientists have either left the church or chosen to be quiet.” This statement cut me to the heart. How can our administration allow so many members to suffer because of this issue of science. Many more people are being lost or silenced over this point. And students are only confused because they, their teachers, and their parents are uninformed and that is the consequence of suppressing scientific research and it’s true findings. I hope that this issue will make people dig a little deeper and inform themselves on the issue instead of depending on quick fixes.
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February 19, 2010
@Sean Pitman, M.D.: Sean are you really asking people to leave the church?
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February 19, 2010
@Sean Pitman, M.D.: Sean you are an MD you know very well that even the most basic college level sciences can not find sufficient support to establish a Biology curriculum to produce world class doctors.
“But, you complain that it isn’t right to single out LSU. I agree. Any paid representative who is taking money from the SDA Church while going about actively undermining a stated fundamental position of the Church should not be kept in the employ of the Church…”
Sean it seems like everything is so black and white to you. Why do you insist on it being so simple, you of all the people posting here I would think would have the background to know just how complicated these issues are. What do you think will happen if these professors are eradicated from LSU? What message does your shape up or ship out give to young SDA’s? How would you like it if it was your job on the line and some people were oversimplifying a situation you were involved with. “The patient died, didn’t he, so there that proves he is a bad doctor. Doctors take the Hippocratic oath, and he obviously didn’t take it seriously, or the patient wouldn’t have died under his care. Fired!” I think you would very much like it if you were give a chance to tell your side of the story. And you would think it unjust if your boss just hung you out to dry. It’s always easier and simpler when it’s someone else’s job, reputation, beliefs we are attaching. If you were these professors and people were talking about you the way you are talking about them, how would you like for them to treat you. You must at least have dinner with these professor and listen to what they have to say before you can really begin to form some opinion about what they deserve. Several contributors on this forum are treating these professors like a lynching mob would an accused man, trying to kill the accused before the trial or trying to not even have a trial. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Sean please, at least consider it. I know you guys are all fired up about this and you have been thinking about it a lot. Eternity is at stake. You have a reputation to uphold. I know, I get it. But please consider they way you would like to be treated if you were in the wrong. Please be more cautious, tread lightly so that if you ever get into a fix and have to eat your words they are not so bitter.
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February 19, 2010
This first and last sentence of this post sadly represents the contradictory nature of Seventh-day Adventist Evolutionary logic. Many posters here welcome open discussion on this issue even 95 theses posted on the chapel of LSU to publicly debate in General Conference session as Luther was willing to do. The difference between the theses of Luther and Seventh-day Evolutionists are those of indulgences are not endorsed in the Bible but a six-day literal creation account is clearly (e.g. Genesis 1:31; Exodus 20:11; Revelation 14:7.)
God bless,
Rich
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February 19, 2010
Membership has very little to do with the issue at LSU, if anything. I’m very surprised to read you’re willing to have anything taught that contradicts the fundamental beliefs of our church just as long as it’s not included in our baptismal vows.
You should peruse the church manual again. All of the twenty-eight fundamental beliefs are included and new converts must know and understand them and purpose in their hearts by the grace of God to order their lives accordingly. Read the following excerpts starting on page 29:
Baptismal vow #11:
Now that we know what the expectations are of those who become members let me add that those who are leadership carry a greater responsibility to uphold the beliefs of the church. Regardless of their personal beliefs, professors at a Adventist university should not be promoting beliefs that are contrary to a significant percentage of our core beliefs.
With that said, here are the points of contention I have with the biology department at LSU.
1. The evidence for a recent creation is not taught or promoted in any known biology course.
2. The theory of evolution is the ONLY scientific worldview being promoted in the biology department that we know of.
3. The professors themselves reject the church’s position, thus making them inadequate to to give due diligence to the evidence for a recent creation.
4. Extreme cases of derision have occurred toward students who believe in creation on campus. For example, at the conclusion of a Breakout session at LSU (Feb. 2009) a group of about four students (creationists) asked the professor, who had just finished a talk negating a recent, six-day creation, on what basis then do we observe the Sabbath. This angered another biology professor in the front row. Things escalated into yelling. Yes, the professor was yelling at these students. He soon lost control and said, “Your kind of thinking drives planes into buildings!” Other words such as stupid and ignorant were directed toward them. Chris Olmo, one of the four, said, “I felt betrayed because I couldn’t even ask a question. If I ask a question they call me ignorant. We do believe in science we just don’t believe in evolution. How are you supposed to learn in that kind of environment.” This was an extreme, but there have been other incidents which could be labelled minor in comparison. Seventh-day Adventist students should feel free to express their beliefs without this kind of treatment.
5. There is good experiential evidence that strongly suggests that the promotion of theistic evolution potentially leads to an agnostic or atheistic worldview.
I’d prefer that no one is fired or compelled to resign, but if LSU administration doesn’t start providing support for these students by giving them the classes they’re paying for and creating an environment supportive of their beliefs without derision and professors who know and understand the evidence for creation then these professors should be fired for their non-complience in the above areas.
This is simple Krisztina. Just about a whole department has rejected the church’s position on origins and has defiantly continued to promote the theory of evolution even after the board told them they were to uphold the church’s position. They either do what they’re paid to do or resign and find another place of employment, and if they don’t do that then they should be fired.
What is your position on this? Are you in favor of evolution being promoted in Adventist universities? You’ve stated that this situation is complex or not black and white. How so? Breaking directives of your employer is complex?
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February 19, 2010
@Krisztina: You seem to have a problem with simplicity. While I do not deny there are complexities in the world, I think we should be careful not to label things complex as justification for not resolving an issue. You skewed the issue even more when you said, “…it seems a little simplistic to think that by not sending our kids to SDA schools that teach things that we personally don’t agree with that our children will be undefiled by evolution.”
This isn’t about personal beliefs. The Seventh-day Adventist church has s very clear position on creation and many of the professors have rejected it and are promoting evolution in its stead. So the problem that the church body has with LSU is it is not teaching what they are being paid for. You’re belittling the issue by describing it as a quibble between personal beliefs of church members and LSU. That’s not the situation at all.
What does “stop blaming the schools for everything” mean? Who is blaming them for everything, and what is everything?
You said: “We might consider strengthening our children with extracurricular science vs. evolution buttressing to supplement their college pre-high school level education so they can stand when the winds of adversity come.”
While that is partially a good idea, you essentially said let’s supplement the lower levels of Adventist education so the can stand when the winds of adversity come once they attend our colleges and universities. Now we have to prepare and educate our kids to defend themselves for our institutions of higher learning? I don’t think that’s what you intended to say, but that is what you said. That is completely backwards and counterproductive to the continuity of Adventist education. I can just imagine a parent telling their kids, “We’ve got to get you ready and ground you so your faith isn’t destroyed when you attend one of our colleges.”
We do have a responsibility. As you can see from this website, myself and others are taking it very seriously.
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February 19, 2010
kriszti:
church membership can & should be called into question. see the church manuel, chapter 13. what do you think the story in joshua 7:10-26 means? what do you think the bible commentary means on p. 1096 when it says: “the names of those who sin and refuse to repent should not be retained on the church books, lest the saints be held accountable for their evil deeds. those who pursue a course of transgression should be visited and labored with, and if they then refuse to repent, they should be separated from church fellowship, in accordance with the rules laid down in the word of God …. those who refuse to hear the admonitions and warning given by God’s faithful messengers are not to be retained in the church. they are to be disfellowshipped; for they will be as achan in the camp of israel — DECEIVED and DECEIVING. who, after reading the record of achan’s sin and punishment, can think it according to the will of God that those who do wickedly, refusing to repent, are to be retained in the church? to retain them would be an insult to the God of heaven.”
oh! wouldn’t the current secular climate in our church cause “progressive adventists” to scream at the thought of disfellowshipping an “adventist” because they are teaching error & apostasy? LSU obviously doesn’t run under God’s plan of discipline. they have hired non-adventists & evolutionists to begin with, after all!
my concern is for those who do nothing about this issue. who stand by & let error be taught. this is our test. and it seems the greater guilt rests on those who not only don’t do anything to speak against error, but presume to speak against those who are standing for right. it would seem their guilt doubles. in other words, be careful to study what you say & believe before you start talking without biblical grounds. we all have an influence for either good or evil (no in-between!), and God have mercy on you if your influence is cast on the wrong side. the right side is, of course, on that of the bible & spirit of prophecy.
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February 19, 2010
ps ~ by the way, that quote was taken from VOLUME 5 of the SDA bible commentary, pg. 1096.
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February 21, 2010
I’m asking those who claim to represent the Church on the Church’s dime to actually do what they are being paid to do – i.e., accurately represent the Church’s stated “fundamental” positions to the world. If a paid representative cannot do this, that person should resign or be let go from employment.
You certainly wouldn’t expect the Catholic Church to continue to pay one of their own representatives to blast cherished Catholic doctrines from the pulpit or classroom – right? How about the Latter-day Saints? How about Coca Cola? – or any other viable organization? “A house divided against itself cannot stand” – right? Why then should anyone think the SDA Church should continue to pay people who are in fact doing just that? – attacking what the Church, as an organization, claims are its most fundamental “truths”?
We are not talking about the imposition of civil penalties here, so please don’t bring up the usual comparisons to the inquisition. Such comparisons are only attempts at inflammatory red herrings that are really irrelevant. The case at hand is simply a matter of supporting a viable organization by only paying those to represent the organization that actually represent the organization. Not just anyone and everyone is qualified to be a paid SDA representative – regardless of his/her otherwise magnificent educational background and qualifications to get paid to work elsewhere.
Beyond this, LSU is trying to hide the fact that many of its professors are directly attacking fundamental SDA ideals in their classrooms. At the very least you should be open and honest and transparent about what you are doing. Why try to hide this activity?
I think even you would admit that parents, students, and the SDA Church membership at large have a right to know what they are paying good money to support. It is a moral wrong to make it appear that you are providing a particular product for purchase when you are actually delivering something quite different in practice. That’s called stealing – wouldn’t you agree?
Now, I ask you, what’s so “complicated” about asking for openness and transparency from LSU? – at the very least? This request is downright obvious and simple to the candid mind. There is simply nothing complicated or difficult about it.
What’s so difficult or complex about being open and honest?
Sean Pitman
http://www.DetectingDesign.com
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February 21, 2010
I have talked to the professors. I have spoken at LSU twice. I lived in the Loma Linda area for 11 years. I have first hand knowledge of what is taking place at LSU. This, together with the witness of LSU parents, students, and the LSU professors themselves is beyond question. The deliberate undermining of fundamental SDA doctrinal positions has been going on at LSU for decades. This is no exaggeration. I’ve been personally involved for over 5 years.
As far as treating others as I would like to be treated, I guess I would love it if others would simply send me money regardless of anything I said or did. How about you? Care to support my personal bank account?
You see, even if a person would want to be paid for doing his/her own thing, independent of the organization or client(s) which he/she serves and to which he/she is dependent for a paycheck, the reality is that payment is supposed to be the result of delivery of the specific product which is being paid for by the client. Anything else is theft from the client. That is, regardless of a person’s desire to be paid for the delivery of goods other than that desired, is a moral wrong.
LSU is especially guilty of this moral wrong because of the fact that they are trying to cover up the actual product that they are delivering to students. They do not admit in their PR advertisements or on their website or anywhere else that I can find that most of their science and many of their religion professors believe in and actively promote theistic evolutionary ideas to their students – directly counter to the clearly stated views of their namesake, the SDA Church, on this fundamental doctrinal issue. This is very deceptive on the part of LSU.
I myself would not think to deliberately steal either time or money from my employer. And, I would not think to deserve anything else but being let go if I did continue to deliberately do so. It just wouldn’t be rational of any employer to maintain and employee who will not do what he/she is being paid to do…
Again, this isn’t personal. My words are not “bitter” against anyone on a personal basis just for believing differently than I do about doctrinal issues. Some of my best friends are agnostics and a few are determined atheists. And, I don’t think that such views are a basis for salvation since I don’t think knowledge or a lack thereof saves or condemns anyone in and of itself. Salvation is based on motive, the motive of love, not knowledge. It is how you use the knowledge you have that is important for salvation.
Now, this isn’t to say that true knowledge is therefore irrelevant or unimportant. That’s not true at all. If it were true, I wouldn’t be contributing to websites like this one or my own website. True knowledge is the basis of conscious hope. Many may be saved who did not have a conscious realization of their bright future while living on this Earth. However, I think all would agree that having a conscious realization of our Hope in Jesus is very valuable to have here and now. This is why I work so hard on issues such as this…
Sean Pitman
http://www.DetectingDesign.com
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February 21, 2010
@Krisztina:
A nice “spin” but the fact is that NO “world class doctor” relies on anything related to “birds come from reptiles” to do surgery or to diagnose diseases.
Polluting science with atheist evolutionist fictions about origins is “not a way to improve science” nor is it the path to more “world class doctors”.
The argument here has never been against biology, support for biology, or biology in connection with the medical profession.
(Though we can all see how evolutionists might prefer that spin).
Hmm I can think of a few things that would “happen”.
1. Less “storytelling” about “birds coming from reptiles” instead of simply studying biology and what we “Really see” in the lab.
2. Less bashing students who accept the Bible doctrine on origins.
3. Less “modeling disguised infidelity” inside an SDA church. Less examples of apostasy being “modeled” from the front of the class room.
4. Less focus on the goal of making LSU “the best public university education that SDA tuition, tithe and offering dollars can buy”
5. Less cases where parents AND students who complain (about “birds came from reptile” story telling being shoved down students throats) being brushed aside and complaints ignored.
It provides a message about “limits” about “boundaries” about “a hedge of protection” about “there being a DIFFERENCE between PUBLIC university values and SDA institutional values” about “SDA fundamental beliefs NOT being in gross error” about the need for integrity when it comes to the bible doctrine on origins vs the overtly atheist evolutionist doctrine on origins being evangelized today in public universities.
If that doctor were injecting the patient with “birds came from reptiles” koolaid instead of giving them an actual antibiotic.
As it turns out – there were “one or two doctors” practicing in Nazi germany – exploring the idea of evolutionism on human test subjects.
In fact there is even that idea going on with some of the Chimera work being done merging humans and animals at various levels.
So “yes” evolutionism even corrupts the medical profession if left unchecked.
Dinner is not the solution for what we know to be the “worst form of infidelity” in 3SG 90-91.
How many professors do you know that would change their “belief” in evolutionism “over dinner”??
If it is your claim that these professors have not yet admitted to teaching evolutionism “as the right answer” for origins – then may I suggest a few links and a bit more time with the source documents highlighted at this website?
The “birds came from reptiles” storytelling has been going on inside LSU and other Adventist institutions for more than 10 years. The problem here is NOT that pro-evolutionist evangelists have not had “enough time to reconsider” their efforts to destroy faith in the Bible and destroy the Adventist denomination in general.
If someone is soooo far down a wrong course that all the efforts so far over more than 10 years have not motivated them to even stop for pause for reflection – then we are at a decision point – yes even a crisis point where decisive action is the ONLY answer.
Paul addressed just such a situation in 1Cor 5 that ended up with a good resolution in 2Cor 2 because of the swift, clear and decisive action taken in 1Cor 5.
If we can put a stop to SDA students being yelled at by SDA professors just because the students choose to embrace critical thinking and to accept the trustworthy nature of the Bible.
in Christ,
Bob
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February 21, 2010
If the student had BEEN in a public university instead of in a “disguised” public university “setting” they would have KNOWN what to expect.
By providing that public university “experience” detailed in the quote above – only doing it behind SDA institution “doors”, we are sure to SHOCK unsuspecting students as in the above example.
Some may think that is a “good thing” — I do not!
Pampering the 3SG 90-91 “disguised infidels” in positions of leadership and authority might “seem like a good idea” to a few diehard evolutionist evangelists, but it is not the good thing they seem to imagine.
Evolutionism provides a less-than-helpful multi-pronged attack on SDA beliefs that few other errors can equal.
http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/take-our-survey/comment-page-3/#comment-9194
in Christ,
Bob
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February 21, 2010
I am puzzled by something: I hear several people mention tithe being used to support schools:
“4. Less focus on the goal of making LSU “the best public university education that SDA tuition, tithe and offering dollars can buy” ”
Is it true that tithe is being used this way?
How do we approve that in light of counsel ginven directly on that:
” One reasons that the tithe may be applied to school purposes. Still others reason that canvassers and colporteurs should be supported from the tithe. But a great mistake is made when the tithe is drawn from the object for which it is to be used–the support of the ministers. . . .
The tithe is the Lord’s, and those who meddle with it will be punished with the loss of their heavenly treasure unless they repent. Let the work no longer be hedged up because the tithe has been diverted into various channels other than the one to which the Lord has said it should go. Provision is to be made for these other lines of work. They are to be sustained, but not from the tithe. God has not changed; the tithe is still to be used for the support of the ministry.–9T 247-250.”
So, is tithe really being used to support our schools? And if so, why?
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