Geanna seems to be questioning the flood’s height on the …

Comment on The hinge of our faith by Erik.

Geanna seems to be questioning the flood’s height on the assumption that it was a near impossibility. It is true that if the water covered Mount Everest, and did so all the way around the world, we would have billions of acre-feet of water on this planet that do not seem to be here today.

The fact is that a period of continental movement, which caused uplifting of the mountain ranges, followed the flood, and there is little solid evidence today for the actual height of the highest mountains prior to the flood. Likewise, mountains surrounded by water tend to crumble, and even taller ones may have been undermined and submerged in the wild currents of the flood. (Consider the Grand Canyon and how it was formed by a rush of water as a great lake suddenly broke through.)

The flood story is a part of legend in so many cultures of the world as to be nearly universal. If not all of the mountains were covered, then people and/or land animals would certainly have survived outside the ark, for they would have found refuge. But the Bible says that they all died except for those on the ark (see Gen. 7:22). If the Bible is to be believed, then one has little room here to choose which parts. If you reject that the waters covered the whole earth, then you will be forced, like a cascading line of dominoes, to reject numerous other passages in the Bible.

This is the danger of having so-called Christian professors teaching as “fact” that which is in such stark contradiction to the Bible. McCloskey at both Walla Walla and LSU taught as fact that the earth could not possibly have been created just 6000 years ago, since there were “proofs” of the world’s age extending to at least double that. To ungrounded students, this type of “fact” might startle them into a realization that their parents had brought them up on fantasies, and that, therefore, the whole Bible was to be considered fiction. True enough, some of my classmates in college turned atheist during the school year. Can we blame the professors? Of course there are multiple factors involved, just as there are if someone commits suicide. But God will hold each one to account for his or her part in the loss of souls, and those who were in teaching positions will be especially responsible, considering their position of influence.

Erik

Erik Also Commented

The hinge of our faith
@Mark: If all post-flood human beings were well aware of the traumatic flood they had just been through, from which they emerged the only survivors on the planet, I suppose it would have been an account that would have survived many a retelling down through the generations which followed. And, if their languages and geographic locations diverged after the flood, these same stories would certainly be found in every part of the world today, having spread out from Mt. Ararat.

That is exactly what happened. The Bible is clear about how the various languages formed. God made them Himself when He confused the people’s languages at the Tower of Babel. That tower was being constructed with the express purpose of providing a flood-safe refuge, hence the memory and influence of the recent flood was still sharp in their minds. The Bible even tells us that during the life of Peleg, who was born about 100 years after the flood, “the earth was divided.” This is a reference to either a) the people being spread apart into separate groups throughout the earth, or b) the divisions of the continents themselves, or both. As the Tower of Babel and the division of the earth were in the same time period, it is safe to presume that all languages and peoples throughout the earth’s regions today had their start in that small collection of descendants from Noah.

Look at this character: 船 That is the Chinese word for “boat.” The left side shows a vessel something like a canoe, while on the right side are two symbols: the two marks at the top form the number eight (å…«) in Chinese, and the square under it forms the word mouth (口). So, the word “boat” is essentially a triple-concept character in Chinese: vessel eight mouths. (See source for this information here: http://creationwiki.org/Chinese_characters_for_Noah%27s_ark.)

There were eight people in the ark (see 1 Peter 3:20). It seems rather unlikely that the number eight would be tied to the word “boat” or “ship.” Why not 100 instead? The logical conclusion is that this originated in memory of the flood. Yet why would the Chinese know about the flood if it did not happen in China? Remember that the tallest mountains in the world are between Mt. Ararat and the “Land of God” as China was once called.

Erik


The hinge of our faith
“Sola Scriptura”

What is scripture? The Bible tells us what scripture is. To any non-Christian or critic of the Bible, getting our definition this way is like pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. To the eye of faith, the scriptures are solid ground, backed up by the words of God Himself.

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1:21)

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (2 Timothy 3:16)

Based on these two texts, and others like them, scripture is defined as that which is given through a prophet by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, by definition, scripture is profitable for “doctrine.”

Ellen White was given the office of a prophet. She was specially inspired. Judging by the sheer numbers of visions she had, the times when angels gave her the wording to use and she quoted from their lips, and by the volume of manuscripts that have come from her pen, can we truly say she was any less inspired than John or Daniel or Paul? It is the same Holy Spirit. Unless you choose to take the first text literally and say that a prophet can only be a man, there is no way of avoiding that Mrs. White was given a position equal to that of the Bible prophets. Her writings, as inspired by God, are scripture. Therefore, they are “profitable for doctrine.”

We as Adventists refrain from basing our “fundamentals” on anything but the Bible because that is common ground among all Christian denominations, and we need to work among many who know the Bible but who do not know Mrs. White. This does not mean Mrs. White was a “lesser prophet” or that she was given her office and inspired by a “lesser spirit.” There is but one Holy Spirit!

In this case, the doctrine we are working with in dealing with creation versus evolution is a fundamental belief. Furthermore, this debate is an internal affair (at this point), and all church members have the privilege of full acquaintance with Ellen White’s writings. Her statements supporting Creation and “true science” were given her by God for our doctrinal benefit. To neglect to use them in this discussion is to reject God’s gift and the light we might have through it.

Erik


Recent Comments by Erik

CCC Requests “Decisive and Conclusive Resolution” from LSU
Dear Adventist in High School,

The devil frequently mixes just a small amount of error in with a larger amount of truth. This is sufficient to accomplish his purposes. He does not need to undermine every truth, only some select truths. The Bible tells us how to know whether or not we can accept something as pure and true: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20). If what they say, even a part of it, does not agree with scripture, even the rest of what they have said is of no value according to this.

We have a saying in English that goes something like this:

A barrel full of sewage with one tablespoon of wine is sewage.
A barrel full of wine with one tablespoon of sewage is sewage.

It does not matter how much “wine” there may be with that sewage, the sewage has perverted the entirety.

Consider how entirely the “sewage” has perverted truth at LSU, given that one of the professors’ statements relegated Mrs. White to “the lunatic fringe” for “the absolute necessity of believing that the only way a creator God could do things is by speaking them into existence a few thousand years ago.” Mrs. White clearly informed us that Creation week was six literal days about six thousand years ago, and further, she has told us that God was not dependent upon pre-existing matter and could but speak them into existence. Yet all of that flies in the face of those who wish to believe their own opinions to be superior to inspiration, doesn’t it? It makes perfect sense that if they believe we evolved from apes, they could not believe what Ellen White taught was true.

Nay, the evolutionist “sewage” has defiled the pure and true at LSU, and its effect permeates the remaining departments of the university. One cannot contain such a far-reaching apostasy as this within a single corner or department of the university. Indeed, we have been given clear evidences that the theologians at the university have also been affected. Whither goes the biology department, and then the theology department, thither goes the whole school.

Erik


Mrs. White: “Don’t send your children to…”

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14)

“That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15)

“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:1-2)

We are the sons of God if we receive Christ and follow Him. The line of Seth did this, and were, therefore, called the sons of God. Cain’s descendants did not follow God, and were not called His sons.

Erik


Mrs. White: “Don’t send your children to…”

The descendants of Seth were called the sons of God–the descendants of Cain, the sons of men. As the sons of God mingled with the sons of men, they became corrupt, and by intermarriage with them, lost, through the influence of their wives, their peculiar, holy character, and united with the sons of Cain in their idolatry. Many cast aside the fear of God, and trampled upon his commandments. But there were a few who did righteousness, who feared and honored their Creator. Noah and his family were among the righteous few. {3SG 60.2}

After the translation of Enoch to heaven, the sons of men that were set against the worship of God were drawing away the sons of God. There were two parties in the world then, and there always will be. The worshipers of God called themselves the sons of God. The descendants of Seth went up into the mountains and there made themselves homes separate from the sons of Cain. Here in their mountainous homes they thought to preserve themselves from the prevailing wickedness and idolatry of the descendants of Cain. But after the exhortations and the influence of Enoch were removed from them, they commenced to unite with the descendants of Cain. {CTr 39.2}

That should help clarify the identity of the “sons of God.”

Erik


Mrs. White: “Don’t send your children to…”

It does our position no service to claim too much or to base too much on such large leaps into very thin air… claiming that this or that animal within the fossil record was the clear result of human genetic manipulation before the flood and for that reason was not saved on the Ark….

Sean,

It seems like Ellen White said “Every species of animals which God had created was preserved in the ark” (1 SP 78.2). Therefore, any species which became extinct at the time of the flood must necessarily have come about via amalgamation. That seems fairly clear. So we know where T-Rex came from, right?

Erik


Mrs. White: “Don’t send your children to…”
David,

Your logic is sound regarding what amalgamation cannot be properly applied to. Such applications as forbid certain inter-human marriages are racist, as you have said, and as I have attempted to express. I almost fully agree with your reasoning on this. However, I will differ slightly on one point, and that is that since we do not know how the amalgamations occurred, we cannot rule out the possibility of men tinkering with plant, animal, and human genetics by means of cross-breeding (as opposed to a more “laboratory” approach). They were very intelligent. Perhaps they knew ways of intermixing species which we would never guess could be mixed with any survivable result, including humans with animals.

So, on the lighter side, if evolutionists like to think they have descended from apes…maybe we should give them a fair hearing (and a DNA test)!

Erik