Comment on GYC Q&A addresses universities who hire and protect evolutionists by Christiane Marshall.
Ken Lytle: When it comes to Church leaders (local churches, schools, medical facilities, conferences, etc.) we should have a 1, 2, 3 strike your out approach. Our Church leaders are to present Christ as Christ presented Himself. The disciples were still in training and can not be compared to our current Church leaders. If a pastor, teacher, etc. is teaching non-Adventist (unBiblical) information, they should be warned once, twice, third strike your out of the position of leadership. This doesnâ€™t mean they canâ€™t retain their church membership and sit in the pew to learn the truth from those truly committed to Godâ€™s wonderful truth. Lord help us!
Just a note about prevention. A better approach might be for us to not get there to begin with. Perhaps what is needed is a slower and more thoughtful process of promotion of individuals to positions of responsibility within church membership and in other of our institutions. That would be better than getting to the point you discuss here. The Adventist collective ‘umpire’ is often so visciously unkind that the member would likely be turned away forever. At times this collective umpire is really just an unthinking, responding mob.
Again, please don’t misunderstand. I am not against decisive action. But I know for a fact that human nature’s need to point the finger and ‘punish’ seems often to be out of control in our church. It’s a result of our own sin problem and our misunderstanding of what Christ can do for us. Our fears of seeing our own sin clearly can prevent more self-reflection, creating a need to find a worse villain. The enemy then uses our fears to destroy what God is trying to do in a situation. I’m not saying that you meant to imply something this onerous, but that the possibility of things getting out of hand is always there. How others perceive our statements is important too.
I wish I hadn’t started this comment as now I’m trying to explain myself more clearly and I fear I am just making mud!
p.s. I wonder if there’s a biblical reference for three strikes you’re out? : )
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Christiane Marshall Also Commented
B. Gene: Our kids do not attend our schools at and early age. My view would be that more than 50% of the children attend public school in our denomination. So long story short if we are not sending our kids to our schools, what do we expect. It has to start early to teach, not when they get into college. Isnâ€™t this being taught in public school curriculum at a very early time in their school life?
B. Gene, I’m trying to gather people together to brainstorm about how we can encourage more school groups to start up, and existing schools to remain afloat. firstname.lastname@example.org
Bob Hancock Sr.: Sister Christiane, regarding your question of a Biblical reference for the â€œone, two, three and youâ€™re outâ€ viewpoint, we might consider
Bob, Mighty strong condemnations there I see! Doesn’t sound like baseball though. The reasons for the condemnations are pretty fierce–threshing Gilead with threshing instruments of iron; carrying away the whole captivity; for not remembering the brotherly covenant; because of pursuing a brother with the sword and not showing mercy and for staying angry; for ripping up the women with child!
I know the issue at hand is a serious one and that decisive action is necessary, but I don’t think these verses describe the sins at LSU!
Bob Pickle: I think that students who are taught evolution as fact in an Adventist school could and perhaps should seek a refund. Doing so would get attention.
Very interesting idea!
Recent Comments by Christiane Marshall
We may just be arguing apples and apples. I am certainly not advocating ‘blind faith’ as you have had cause to address frequently on this sight. I am arguing against an over-dependence on extra-biblical evidence for our faith walk.
How do you know that the Bible is really the Word of God, while other religious texts, like the Book of Mormon, is not? How do you tell the difference? My LDS friends tell me that God gives them a warm feeling deep within themselves when they see or hear the truth. That is how they know that the Book of Mormon is from God. For me, I donâ€™t find this approach very helpful when it comes to establishing a solid hope or confidence in the Bible as Godâ€™s word.
I actually had the opportunity to study many of the world’s so-called sacred texts before accepting the Bible as the true one. The Bible’s internal testimony coupled with the convicting witness of the Holy Spirit is what finally tipped the scales for me. Yes, I did do a bit of reading about historical and archeological and logical reasons why this testimony was credible – but it was the testimony of the Bible itself (coupled with the personal witness and testimony of Christians and the witness of the Holy Spirit) that helped me experience a saving faith. Most people are not as analytical as you or I. Most read the Bible and are convicted that it is true – without undertaking an extensive research project into the scientific reasons that may be so. Poor uneducated people in the third world experience a more vital faith than you or I, without such in-depth confirmatory knowledge. Doug Batchelor did not have a computer and a library full of data to assist him in that cave outside of Palm Springs – only the Bible! Most people who are converted to Christ testify that it was through influence of friends who witnessed to them about their relationship with Christ (a very subjective thing scientifically) – not through a rigorous scientific examination of the empirical data.
Once again, most people have no empirical evidence that the resurrection took place – they have only the testimony of those who witnessed that it took place. Yes, there are logical inferences that confirm that it must have taken place. But when you say empirical I’m assuming you are saying something that can be observed in present time reality and scientifically tested.
“Empirical evidence is a fancy way of describing facts that can be experienced and tested only through the senses.”
Faith has to do with learning to trust our spiritual senses above our physical ones. How else would you explain the numerous persons who testify that they were ‘deeply impressed’ to take a certain path when all the empirical data seemed to say otherwise – later to find out that their life depended on this ‘spiritual sense’ choice! Of course I’m not arguing for pentecostalism here, but you get the idea.
Did the faith of Jesusâ€™ disciples increase or decrease after they saw Him resurrected from the grave?
Of course it was strengthened. Christ said however that it was a more blessed experience to believe without such empirical experience. What was He saying? I think He was saying that it is more blessed to take God at His Word than to demand or depend upon empirical evidence. The story of Gideon is a powerful testimony to this principle.
Victor,Sometimes itâ€™s appropriate to hit-the-nail on the head.Take for example Jesusâ€™ statement to the Samaritan woman, â€œYe worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.â€That might seem inappropriately direct, but it wasnâ€™t.It was just what she needed.The scattered servants of Christ needed to hear the president of the world church express a clear understanding of where the church needs to go.And my own experience with non-Christians is that they respond much more vigorously and appreciatively to a meaningful presentation of the Bible than they do to a generalistic and generic appeal to their feelings.Iâ€™m sure you arenâ€™t advocating a meaningless presentation, but Iâ€™m all for exactly the type of message President Wilson gave.I suspect those outside the church who care enough to listen to his message appreciate the frankness with which this leader expressed the direction he intends to go.I think many of them know he wasnâ€™t targeting them â€“ he was talking to us.
Robert, I agree with you AND with Victor. I don’t really know what the answer is. In the information age, everything has changed. We have to rethink a lot about how we do things. We want to have a private evangelistic series and present truths by presenting the building blocks first, and building understanding before presenting the “more difficult aspects.” But how can we now? The last meetings we held, people went home and googled our personal names as well as doctrinal topics.
Sure we want a clear and meaningful message, but we want to protect those who are not ready to receive all of the truth at this time. We don’t want to push them away. It isn’t that we are afraid of offending them personally. It’s that we don’t want walls to go up so that we can’t reach out to them successfully.
I don’t know what the answer is. Even this forum is disturbing when our members have out and out conflicts, especially when behavior is not becoming of a Christian. It’s available for the whole world to see!
What it comes down to is things are different now. We need to approach everything differently. Otherwise, evangelistic interests will begin to think of us as the religious “Amway” brigade and lock their doors before we go up the steps.
The increase of knowledge and the rapid availability of it has changed our landscape. Christiane
Did Wilson explain how SDA members can actually hold our leaders accountable?We have many leaders out here in the Pacific Union Conference who have not been accountable and still arenâ€™t, but what can ordinary â€œJoe and Jill Schmoâ€ church members do?
I wondered the same thing. I just realized this year that I really don’t know enough about how our church works and how changes are made. It’s my intention to study this out. Of course Biblical principles and a Christlike attitude must be followed (Matthew 18, and Proverbs 17:9–“He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends”). Biblical principles and Christlike attitude first, church policy second.
Michigan Conference takes substantial action in LSU conflict
I hope more will follow, and will do so prayerfully.
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A classic case which should cause any Adventist to stop in their tracks when judging motive or destiny is the following one:
“If William Miller could have seen the light of the third message, many things which looked dark and mysterious to him would have been explained. But his brethren professed so deep love and interest for him, that he thought he could not tear away from them. His heart would incline toward the truth, and then he looked at his brethren; they opposed it. Could he tear away from those who had stood side by side with him in proclaiming the coming of Jesus? He thought they surely would not lead him astray.
God suffered him to fall under the power of Satan, the dominion of death, and hid him in the grave from those who were constantly drawing him from the truth. Moses erred as he was about to enter the Promised Land. So also, I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump.” – EW 258