Comment on Are LSU professors breaking the 8th commandment? by Warren.
@BobRyan:
There needs to be a thread about the 1Timothy 4:1 concept of “doctrines of demons†and then solid inspired text references to Satan having a real focused and genuine interest in the subject of evolution.
I can certainly provide anecdotal evidence. I have a friend who has received messages from spirit beings; who have specifically told him that the idea that a loving “God” created the world is false, and that it evolved over time from simple life forms created by aliens not from our planet.
The devil has many lies out there, to suit whomever he is trying to deceive at the moment, but you can clearly see that he is not interested in us believing that a loving God created a perfect world a mere 6000 years ago.
The corresponding evidence from inspiration would also be good to address…
Warren
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Are LSU professors breaking the 8th commandment?
Ron Nielsn: @Sean Pitman M.D.: Sean, I am not a geologist, and I haven’t read much about this, but your argument doesn’t make logical sense.Where does the sediment that is “washed off†go, except down slope, and as long as the uplift is equal or greater than the erosion rate, there is always going to be sediment at the top
Ron, your last phrase, “as long as the uplift is equal or greater than the erosion rate, there is always going to be sediment at the top” can only make sense if you assume the entire earth is made of sediment. At least I can’t see another way to read your logic.
In the specific case of Everest, there are non-sedimentary layers under the sediment. If we assume current deposition rates and current erosion rates, millions of years passing should have washed away the sediment. Uplift will not give more sediment, only more exposed non-sedimentary rock. Since there is still sediment, millions of years cannot have passed.
Unless you change the variables we have, you cannot have it any other way.
You could say Everest got sediment faster than erosion at some time in the recent past. But if you say that, Everest’s uplift must have also been recent, since the sediment is of a marine nature. Water runs downhill.
You can claim Everest had cycles of deposition and erosion long ago in the past, millions of years ago (trying to place the uplift long ago) but that doesn’t change the fact that the sediment there now must have been placed in a recent cycle, since there is so much of it left (current erosion rates being what they are).
Are LSU professors breaking the 8th commandment?
Regarding satan’s interest in teaching Evolution:
The warnings of the word of God regarding the perils surrounding the Christian church belong to us today. As in the days of the apostles men tried by tradition and philosophy to destroy faith in the Scriptures, so today, by the pleasing sentiments of higher criticism, evolution, spiritualism, theosophy, and pantheism, the enemy of righteousness is seeking to lead souls into forbidden paths.
(AA 474)
Also, I thought the following quote was relevant to the subject. There was a discussion specifically on how evolution should be taught in our colleges, in which W.C. White and E.G. White were involved.
W. C. White: Jesus said at one time, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works.” Now the law says that a man shall not practice medicine unless he has a diploma from a college, and unless he has passed the examination of the state board, and has a certificate. The law would not recognize the diplomas of our physicians unless they have studied some things that we do not think are really essential. For instance, in their preparation they have to study a number of things that we think they might get along without, but we can teach them. We do not have to teach these subjects in their way; we can teach them in our way. When it comes to the study of drugs, they (759) teach how to give them. We teach the dangers of using them, and how to get along without them. In some other schools they teach geology on the evolution basis. We can teach geology and show that evolution is false. {LLM 427.3}
E. G. White: Well, you must plan these details yourselves. I have told you what I have received, but these details you will have to work out for yourselves. {LLM 427.4}
J. A. Burden: It seems clear to me that any standing we can lawfully have without compromising, is not out of harmony with God’s plan. {LLM 427.5}
E. G. White: No, it is not. All I can say is that I have had very distinct light, however, that there is danger of our limiting the power of the Holy One of Israel. He is the God of the Universe. Our influence is dependent upon our-428-
carrying out the word of the living God. We weaken our powers by not placing our dependence upon God, and taking hold of His strength. This is our privilege. (MS-105-’09 very similar to MS-71-’09)
(Loma Linda Messages 427-428)
Warren
Recent Comments by Warren
Jay Gallimore comments on evolution conflict
Dear Mr. Pitman,
I never said that the Exodus was an impossible task or event; I just said that having such an event in that massive of a scale unfolding seems improbable.Imagine with me for a moment if you would, that thousands of your fellow citizens decided to leave your city. Don’t you think that this would have been a noteworthy event? If not for you at least for those around you? I mean this would not only affect the populace as far as population size is concerned but more importantly it will have a direct and negative impact upon the economy.
Actually, as was pointed out by a previous poster on this site, the incorrect Egyptian chronology that has been foisted upon us is the cause of many of these misunderstandings. Now there are a number of serious efforts to line up Biblical history with Egyptian chronology. While they may not agree in all details, they do share the common understanding that Egyptian chronology is much shorter than previously assumed. With this understanding, a number of points match up between Egyptian and Biblical history.
One interesting matching point is the downfall of the Egyptian economy after a series of natural disasters. The destruction of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea may have been what allowed the “stranger people from outside Egypt” (the Hyksos) to invade Egypt, (just after the Exodus, according to the revised chronology). From a document supposed to be from the 19th dynasty (but could be a copy of a document from the 12th dynasty):
Nay, but the heart is violent. Plague stalks through the land and blood is everywhere…. Nay, but the river is blood. Does a man drink from it? As a human he rejects it. He thirsts for water….Nay, but gates, columns and walls are consumed with fire….Nay but men are few. Hey that lays his brother in the ground is everywhere….Nay but the son of the high-born man is no longer to be recognized….The stranger people from outside are come into Egypt….Nay, but corn has perished everywhere. People are stripped of clothing, perfume, and oil. Everyone says “there is no more.” The storehouse is bare….It has come to this. The king has been taken away by poor men.
–Ipuwer Papyrus, Leiden Museum
(Thanks to the book, “Unwrapping the Pharaohs: How Egyptian Archeology Confirms the Biblical Timeline” (by John Ashton & David Down, p. 102) for this quote).
It sounds to me like the effect of the Exodus on the Egyptian economy was actually recorded in history, but our understanding of Egyptian Chronology has only recently begun to be corrected (and thus, to line up with the Bible Chronology, so that events could be recognized for what they were).
LSU student petition criticizes curriculum
Brian, This “sell it out†is what most of us would like to avoid, at least I would. However, it may be necessary. The major problem we face is that, contrary to Ellen’s White’s time, we have many more within our SDA Church who don’t listen to her counsel or dismiss it as being old fashioned, out of date, inaccurate, or just pure baloney!
I’m not sure the church listened to EGW in her day very well either. But we have been warned that the last work of Satan would be to make the Testimonies of none effect. (And I would say, the Bible as well).
LSU student petition criticizes curriculum
@Ron Stone M.D.:
I
Bill, You are so right about pastors being intimidated.By who?Mainly by the conference office! Yeh, I’ve spoken to a number of pastors, who, when made aware of what is happening, say they “can’t say or do anything†or else the Conference will come down on them.What Conference?Well, since I’m in California, it would be the Pacific Union Conference.Maybe this is not such a problem elsewhere?Anyone care to give their opinion?
Regarding whether this is a problem elsewhere, I want to go on record that the Alaska Conference has excellent leadership. And I believe that is the case in many other conferences as well. Our Conference President has written a series of articles in support of Biblical Creation and has made it clear that we stand on the Bible.
Maybe you don’t see what is going on behind the scenes as each conference and their leadership attempt to do their part to educate the people and lead them back to the Bible.
At the same time, conference leadership cannot demand obedience of all the members, and so a gentle touch is needed so that the “smoking flax” of faith will not be quenched.
I agree with the purpose of this website, but I think some of the posters on here could use a dose of meekness and attitude adjustments. Your zeal to correct the problem would be better spent in actually doing something about it, rather than writing inflammatory injunctions and name calling.
In more than one area of life, I have learned that it is better to withhold the words until you have the action to back it up. Jesus cleaned out the Temple; He didn’t just sit on the sidelines and criticize what was going on. So if you have the ability to influence the leaders (or the members who vote for them), do so.
But sitting on the sidelines and saying “Doug Batchelor” and “David Asscherick” (or other leaders) should do something may be counter-productive.
Creation Debate in the Seventh-day Adventist Church
@ken:
Re Ron’s Quote
A “day†didn’t really mean an actual 24-hour day.
Dear Ron
And thus 2300 days didn’t really mean 2300 days. See the double standard here when it comes to literal interpretation, Ron?
Ken,
Correct Biblical interpretation starts with assuming God meant things literally unless internal evidence suggests otherwise. It’s easy to get this reversed though, if you don’t want to believe God. For example, did Jesus really mean, “turn the other cheek”? Now that would allow an evil person to take advantage of you! So “I think that is merely symbolic”. Next, I run across the Genesis account, and it doesn’t agree with my preconceptions, so “I think that is symbolic”. But when it comes to prophecy, I don’t believe God could predict the future, so “I think those prophetic days are literal days” helps me to believe that God was merely observing trends and taking a good guess.
Ken, I’m not saying that you are doing this, merely that it is easy to make that mistake. To be safe in Biblical interpretation, I must assume it is speaking literally unless symbols are defined otherwise. (For example, Daniel and Revelation define many symbols, e.g. Daniel 8:20: Ram=Media/Persia, Daniel 8:21: Goat=Greece, Revelation 17:9,10: Heads=mountains,king(doms), Revelation 17:15: Water=multitudes of people. The context must be used (surrounding verses, chapter, book, entire Bible) and the Bible must not be made to contradict itself.
The Bible’s accurate outline of history in Daniel 2,7 and 8 (as Ron mentioned) is clear evidence of it’s Divine origin.
Now, for the specific case you mention, the 2300 days have several good reasons (internally) that they are symbolic:
* Daniel 8 describes aggression against God’s sanctuary system, starting in the time of Persia and Greece (vs. 1-12,20). But verse 17 puts it in the context of the time of the end. Thus, the vision must extend for more than a period of literal days in order to span from Daniel’s time to “the time of the end”.
* Daniel 9:21 refers to “the vision at the beginning” (that is, in Daniel 8:16,17). The Hebrew word for vision here is “hazon”. But Daniel 9:24 says “Understand the vision” (mareh), a different Hebrew word previously used in Daniel 8:26 and 8:16 to refer specifically to the discussion of 2300 days in 8:13-14. In other words, Daniel 8 and 9 are linguistically linked by the word “mareh”. When Gabriel explains the 70 weeks in Daniel 9, he is also explaining the rest of the Daniel 8 vision (specifically, the beginning of the time period).
Daniel 9 clearly points to the coming of Messiah the Prince (Jesus) and is one of the clearest evidences of Divine authorship of the Bible. Nobody can argue that Daniel was authored a mere literal 69 weeks prior to Jesus baptism (“anointing”). But Jesus did come, on time, 483 symbolic days (literal years) after the command to restore and build Jerusalem in 457 BC.
Likewise, the 2300 days must begin at that time as the 70 weeks were “hatak” (cut off, divided) from them. And just as Jesus was anointed at His baptism on time, he began his ministry in the Most Holy Place on time, cleansing the sanctuary, preparing His people for His soon return. Just as the Levitical priesthood yearly cleansed the sanctuary of the already forgiven sins (as well as those of the rebellious) and banished them to the wilderness, Jesus in his heavenly ministry is removing the responsibility for sin from God and banishing it to the wilderness (rebutting satan’s claims).
In the case of the 2300 days, we have to accept what is going on in Heaven by faith, but we have good evidence based on what has already happened regarding the 490 days (Jesus first coming on time).
This is a very brief summary of a very detailed topic. Further discussion should probably be in a separate thread.
One reason why the debate about origins is relevant
I’m going to modify somewhat a paragraph from David Read:
Do we still have a problem with this?I’m sure that many of us are comfortable with the explanation that Satan is the cause of “death and competition,†and that God is not to blame. But there are many who look at nature and see the ugliness–virtually everywhere one looks–and decide that God, if real, must be indifferent and downright disgusting. It doesn’t help matters that when they turn to the Old Testament, they find passage after passage where God orders his people to do the very same thing that they see animals do in nature: pillage, plunder, butcher, kill some more; pillage, plunder, butcher, kill some more; pillage, plunder, butcher, kill some more.I believe in YEC myself, but I don’t really see how a literal 6-day creation only 6,000 years ago softens the view of God that many arrive at by studying both the Bible and God’s second book–nature. Just a thought.
This is where the Adventist understanding of the “Great Controversy Theme” is important. “Why does God allow suffering?” (now, after sin) is a different question than “Why would God create using suffering?” (prior to any sin).
Adventists believe that the latter question is based on false premises. We believe the answer to the former question started in Heaven, when Lucifer convinced a third of the angels that God’s government was faulty. Revelation 12:7 says there was war in Heaven (the word for “war” is “polemia”, where we get “polemics”). In other words, an argument. We can see the gist of the argument in the opening chapters of Job, as well as in Zechariah 3. Revelation 12:12 calls the devil “the accuser of our brethren”.
God had a devil on his hands, not by His own creation, but because of “the mystery of iniquity”. One (perfectly just) solution would have been to destroy all dissenters and be done with it. But that wouldn’t really solve the problem, would it? It would only multiply the dissent, pushing it into the recesses of the minds of the (formerly) loyal angels.
God has wisely chosen to counter the mystery of iniquity with the Mystery of Christ (Ephesians 3:4,9-11). His wisdom is now on display to the principalities and powers (loyal angels), by which He will accomplish His purpose: To make a complete end of sin. Not by force will He convince the universe, but by a demonstration of His love. Yet, those who refuse to see the truth will eventually, sadly, be given up to their own devices.
Just as God allowed Job to suffer in order to demonstrate his loyalty in spite of incomplete knowledge, God has allowed the devil to demonstrate his government to the universe. The loyal angels were convinced at the cross that God’s way was right, but they still need to be convinced that we humans are safe to save (one purpose of the heavenly judgment going on right now). As we allow God to work in our lives, changing us from within, we can be part of God’s forces, helping prepare the way for His coming.
2 Peter 3:11-13 (New King James Version)
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.