AAA to examine LSU

The following are excerpts from an Adventist Review article titled “Adventist Accrediting Team to Visit La Sierra University” by Mark Kellner. The sub-heading reads, “Biology issues to be on docket, at school’s suggestion.”

“The Adventist Accrediting Association, or AAA, will examine the highly charged debate over the teaching of origins at La Sierra University during a visit the week of November 15 to the school.”

“The site visit is expected to bring nine Adventist educational administrators and experts to the Seventh-day Adventist tertiary institution in Riverside, California. Every ten years, the AAA conducts a site visit at the institution, to consider the renewal of the school’s accreditation by the group.”

[Excerpt]

“The recent controversy over the teaching of origins at La Sierra apparently falls under the purview of the site visit team, particularly since the school itself included the matter in ‘self-study’ documents prepared before the visit, said Dr. Niels-Erik Andreasen, president of Andrews University and leader of the inspection visit.”

“At the heart of the controversy is the way evolution is presented to biology undergraduate students. Some, including student Louis [sic] Bishop and LSU alumnus Shane Hilde, contend professors are presenting evolution as the reliable theory of origins and diminish the notion of creation, which is a fundamental belief of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Bishop said he was placed on ‘citizenship probation’ by the school for circulating letters opposing the teaching of evolutionary concepts and for posting notes of a professor’s lecture online, despite a verbal agreement that Bishop would not do so without consulting the teacher. (See Adventist Review, April 15 and June 10, 2010.)”

[Excerpt]

“[Niels-Erik Andreasen] stressed ‘this does not respond to LSU in the news. It is a regular, 10-year accreditation visit that will look at all the standards the AAA has maintained.'”

[Excerpt]

“Pastor Daniel R. Jackson, NAD president and a former college church pastor, told Adventist Review in an interview that division leadership is looking to the site visit team for leadership. He said he’d e-mailed GC Education director Dr. Lisa M. Beardsley and, while recognizing that the AAA site visit is primarily to weigh the school’s performance against established criteria, ‘I appealed to them to reflect upon the understandings and philosophy of the church as they carry out this task.'”

“The site visit is expected to last four days, and there is no immediate indication of when results would be publicly announced.”

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72 thoughts on “AAA to examine LSU

  1. Is it going to be an old boys network where one school overlooks the problems at the other school so they will do likewise when it is their turn? Our church is full of evil politics. I wouldn’t be surprised if they come away with an “all ok” conclusion. When will the problems be fixed?




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  2. If what you say is true…the guilt being added up is devasating…..

    God will intervene on behalf of His young. They are standing for Him….He will stand for them.

    Like the Covenant GOD made with Abram…..”And, I will bless those who bless you, And, the one who curses you, I will curse.”

    Behold, the salvation of The Lord……this is the war in living color…..

    Deborah




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  3. Is it going to be an old boys network where one school overlooks the problems at the other school so they will do likewise when it is their turn? Our church is full of evil politics. I wouldn’t be surprised if they come away with an “all ok” conclusion. When will the problems be fixed?  (Quote)

    Ms. Fender, I am certain of this: nothing will satisfy you of a “fix,” no matter what the outcome is. LSU cannot replace the faculty because no there are none available to take their place. LSU cannot sever ties with the Church because they both need each other. LSU could resolve the situation on its own, and indeed may have already, but there is nothing they can say or do to convince you of that. Nothing.




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  4. “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”

    One potential solution to the crisis is to recognise that science and theology are not about the same things. Theology is about faith, what is not seen, and therefore does not require any evidence. It’s only authority is the Bible. Because Faith is not about evidence, evidence can never treaten one’s faith. Theology should be taught in religion classes.

    Science on the otherhand is not about faith. It is about evidence, that which can be seen. Science does not, and should not require faith. It is about what you can see, touch, taste, and smell and it should be taught in a science class.

    We should not expect there to be congruence between the two. If what we learned by faith always correlated with what we learned by science, then there would be no need for faith. There would be no need for “the Just to live by faith”. Faith would in fact cease to exist. If science always showed us only what we had previously believed by faith, then there would be no need for exploration and testing. One of the fundamental characteristics of humanity, curiosity, would have no fulfilment. It would become a very boring and stagnant world indeed.

    As a church, I think we need to affirm both faith and science. Let each of the departments teach their appropriate disciplines with full academic freedom. As a church we should insist on mutual respect between disciplines. Neither theology, nor science departments should demand exclusive right to truth because we are all human and our vision is subject to distortion, “now we see darkly”. The rest of us, the laymen, need to learn to live in a world of dynamic tension between faith and sight. As Adventist’s, is that not in fact an important part of our unique message? That the Great Controversy is in fact a grand experiment to discover truth? To turn “faith” to “not faith”, to turn what is not seen into that which is revealed? According the doctrine of the investigative judgement, even God gives everyone freedom and reserves judgement unil the end, when all the evidence is in. As Adventists I believe we need not only to tolerate the difference, but to affirm and endorse the difference as the way to a more complete and dynamic life of faith.

    Another part of being Adventist is, or at least should be, confidence that God loves us, and leads us even when we are theologically wrong. We have had to abandon our fundamental beliefs (the second coming in 1884) and re-interpret the Bible before (the investigative judgement). And we were blessed as a result. I think we should be humble enough to always hold our “Fundamental beliefs” loosely. Many in the Adventist church believe the Bible can be interpreted in a way that allows for long geologic time and evolution, and still maintain our belief in God as the creator, and the Sabbath truth. At least to me those do not seem to be mutually exclusive beliefs. Maybe with a little tolerance we could explore those ideas a little. Maybe they are all wrong and the exploration won’t go anywhere, but on the otherhand, maybe this will turn out to be one of those “other mines of truth” that Mrs. White spoke about. Part of the excitement of prospecting for truth is the not knowing. Most of the time you wind up being wrong, but once in awhile you strike it big and your spiritual life is enriched beyond your wildest imagination. For me, having the freedom to prospect is the most fundamental of fundamental beliefs. Christ died to give me the right to be wrong, and to still live with him eternally.




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  5. @Professor Kent: I am not a difficult person to please. Just make the necessary changes and most, if not all of the supporters of Educate Truth will be happy. Do I think that this is going to happen? No. This is not an accident that this is happening. It is calculated, purposeful, and persistent. I suspect you are a part of the problem. Your group is determined to shove this down the throats of the students and church members to take the church decidedly left so they will accept all of societies political correctness. You have a definite agenda to push and you are not going to give up. We will not give up either! The stakes are too high, the minds and souls of our young people.




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  6. @Ron: Unfortunately Ron, unfortunately a “kinder more gentler” approach to doctrine is probably too wishy washy for many of us. We have moved to the place that EGW predicted where “every wind of doctrine is blowing in the church.”

    Progressives are mistaken if they thinks that I dont love them as my siblings in Jesus, because I do. I do think that our beliefs do need to be well defined to prevent confusion and misunderstanding. Words mean things and beliefs affect our behavior.

    “The days are fast approaching when there will be great perplexity and confusion. Satan, clothed in angel robes, will deceive, if possible, the very elect. There will be gods many and lords many. Every wind of doctrine will be blowing. Those who have rendered supreme homage to “science falsely so called” will not be the leaders then. Those who have trusted to intellect, genius, or talent will not then stand at the head of rank and file. They did not keep pace with the light. Those who have proved themselves unfaithful will not then be entrusted with the flock. In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the day time we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster.”

         “The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ’s righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.” Ellen G. White, 5 Testimonies pages 80-81




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  7. @D. Fender:

    I wouldn’t go that far, D. Fender. Being an alumnus of AU, I know Dr. Andreasen personally and he is a God-fearing man, so I would not expect for him to just give it a rubber-stamp of approval.

    Also, while people are involved in running our church, and there have been instances of abuse and mis-use in our church administration (I saw some things first-hand as a SM in one of our division HQs), this is nothing new, judging from the Bible. Believe it or not, you will never find a “perfect” church, just like you will never find a hospital that only has “well people” in it! The church was made for sinners, which means we’re going to have “evil politics” now and then.

    While there are “bad SDA administrators” at all levels, the vast majority of our leadership is dedicated, sacrificial, and God-fearing as well. No, they are not perfect (who is? I know I’m not, and I’m pretty sure you aren’t either), but we all do the best, with God’s grace.

    And that’s what is the most amazing thing of all–what God can do with IMPERFECT people, “evil politics” and all! That way, we can know that there is no way we can get the credit when amazing things happen in our church!!! Only God can get the credit.

    So no matter what happens with this issue at LSU, God’s will, will be done, DESPITE (or INSPITE) whatever WASC and AAA conclude. Ultimately, God is in control…this is HIS college, not the GC or the SDA church. ALL of this is His!!!




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  8. A Word from our sponsors. Ted Wilson has new “ownership” of this problem and so does Daniel Jackson our new NAD president. Ted Wilson reported to the “Yes Creation” group at the GC session in August that the LSU problem would be addressed and corrected by his administration. He asked for prayers and used language that indicated he expected a very difficult challenge from those promoting what is going on there.

    As a result – I for one do not think this AAA visit is nothing more than a “All flowers and roses rubber stamping” exercise. Rather than supposing the worst – I would ask that all who have been urging that this problem get fixed – engage in prayer this week that the AAA team will make wise decisions and that those at LSU who do not wish to be part of the problem will make themselves known.

    When Moses came down from Sinai the first question he asked was “who is on the Lord’s side”. We all need to respond to that call in the sphere that God has appointed us. So if you are not actually engaged in evaluating LSU this week – my suggestion is prayer.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  9. @Ernie Medina, Jr.: Ernie, God is sovereign. He will do what is right. I trust Him in this situation. His timeline is not always our timeline. Remember that the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. I certainly hope that this problem is fixed this week and that more young Adventist minds are not drawn away from the Creator and His Church to follow the god’s of this world! Sister White describes this situation perfectly as I have quoted her in other locations on this blog.

    Certainly we are very near the second coming. We are also behind on the spreading of the message. We are told that the work that could have been done in a time of prosperity will have to be done in a time of extreme adversity. Come quickly Lord Jesus!




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  10. @ D Fender

    It is calculated, purposeful, and persistent. I suspect you are a part of the problem. Your group is determined to shove this down the throats of the students and church members to take the church decidedly left so they will accept all of societies political correctness.

    I would expect this of you, and you are sooooo wrong. I have stated dozens of times here, and at other venues (e.g., Adventist Today), that I have no issue with the motive of Educate Truth. It’s the method I completely despise.

    I accept the same SDA fundamental beliefs that you and Educate Truth do. And I believe that the Church’s position on origins issues must be taught and with respect. However, I differ in who I see as shoving ideology down others’ throats.




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  11. @Professor Kent: Prof, the church has not moved away from the progressives, they have moved away from us! We are not trying to shove our historic bible-based doctrines on them, they are the ones that have brought strange fire into the camp and are trying get us to accept it as truth. Get your story straight.




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  12. If science and the Bible are in agreement, what is the problem? In this issue one is right and one is wrong. Either the Bible is true or the so called science (completely undemonstrated) is true. Is LSU a Seventh-day Adventist instituion or is it a case where the prperty is owned by the Seventh-day Adventist church only?




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  13. @Professor Kent:

    What method would you approve of in dealing with this issue? Apparently talking behind closed doors does not work. I ask this question with the utmost respect.

    Also, I must agree with D.Fender that others have brought strange fire into the camp. Whereas the Lord never forces His ideology down our throats, I’m disturbed to hear how others are claiming He’s doing just that by standing His ground, ground that is rightfully His, for He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and the Founder of that “camp”. Or perhaps His agents on earth should allow this strange fire into the camp? Wouldn’t they then be guilty of falling asleep at their posts? If God’s people neglect to guard the walls of Jerusalem, then the Lord Himself will come down and do the work for us, and it will be more terrible, and we ourselves will have to answer for our neglect. And believe me, I don’t want to have to face my Lord and answer why I neglected to watch my post.




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  14. The cynicism I see being expressed here is astounding! Finally we have a church approved and church funded solution to the LSU situation and all most people here seem to assume is that nothing will change. How many of you have ever served on a committee tasked with difficult decisions like this one? It’s easy to propose simplistic solutions from the outside, but it’s a whole ‘nother thing to work out real solutions that hae lasting impact. I think the more conservative members of Educate Truth will not be satisfied until all our institutions follow the approach taken by places like Wiemar. Well, that not going to happen, for sure, and even if it did all that would accomplish is the ruin of our fine SDA educational system.

    Do our schools have problems? Of course! I have visisted many of our schools myself and spent a considerable amount of time several of them. Our schools are run by sinful, flaw-ridden human beings. I would have it no other way. We could try and run our schools entirely by saints, could enough of them be found, but then who woud decide who are saints and who sinners?

    Educate Truth has asked the church to look into this, and whatya know, it is, and now all I see is more complaining about how nobody is doing anything. I think one thing that Educate Truth is beginning to teach me is how difficult it was for Jesus to change the minds of those in the conservative wing of his religious community. In case you have carefully read the Gospels lately, Jesus spent most of his time chastising the conservatives and comforting the liberals. I’m not saying Jesus wasn’t concerned about proper belief in doctrine, but it certainly was not His priority. Maybe it s about time to consider what Jesus might have to say to the people at Educate Truth. Are you listening? Are you praying?

    I am, for all of you, and for myself. I also pray that the AAA visit to LSU will accomplish something positive!




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  15. @OTNT_Believer: I will admit I’m a bit cynical on this post, but I believe God understands me and forgives my cynicism.

    I’ve been on enough school board meetings, student conduct committees, personnel selection committees to know that often God is ignored and our human weakness prevails so that someone’s cousin gets picked to fill a job they are not entirely qualified for, or a student gets out of trouble because his father is an alumnus who donates lots of money to the school, or blah blah blah. We all know what happens in the SDA church, nepotism, favortism, outright ignorance, if you have not seen it you’re not looking. Does God always intervene, or does he expect us to use the brain and backbone he gave us along with obedience and faith?

    I believe Dr Andreasen is a fine man who will lead the committee to try to do the right thing, but we fight against spiritual weakness and wickedness in high places. The committee needs our fervent prayers!




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  16. This will be a time of testing to see whether principle will trump internal politics. Anyone who believes there is no such thing as internal politics in some church actions I have a large building I wish to sell!

    I agree that we certainly need to pray that right wins out.




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  17. You folks continue to slander La Sierra by claiming it is hiding things and has failed to make any changes. Did you notice the subtitle of the article?

    “Biology issues to be on docket, at school’s suggestion.”

    H-e-l-l-o!!!




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  18. @Professor Kent: “Slander- malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.”

    Are you saying that the evidence that is posted by Shane and Sean is false and LSU is being falsely accused? Are you implying that first hand reports by students are made up? Are you saying that students that sign a petition and personally obtained degrees from LSU over a series of years and felt cheated that they were not taught what our church believes, but instead were taught information that is contrary to our biblical beliefs are wrong? I know some of these students personally and have heard the story. Do you not realize that religion professors at LSU openly support gay marriage in direct defiance to our church’s clearly stated belief that marriage is a union between one man and one woman?

    You are such a fantastic progressive! Direct the attention away from the topic and rick solid evidence by using a buzz word like “slander” because your argument is ineffective and weak. Nice try but it doesn’t work.




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  19. @ D. Fender:

    LSU has affirmed that it is Adventist, that it fully supports the SDA Church, and teaches its fundamental beliefs. Are you, like others here have stated, saying they are lying? Some here have stated very clearly, and repeatedly, that the majority of their biology faculty believe and continue to teach theistic evolution. No one has established this as a majority view, and no one has offered one tidbit of evidence that theistic evolution was taught last year by their biology faculty. Not one video. Not one syllabus. Not one set of lecture notes. And now the university has asked the proper authority of the Church (not EducateTruth) to examine its teaching of biology.

    Many statements posted here are indeed malicious (obviously), very likely false (though you think otherwise), and defamatory (obviously). What would you prefer to call it other than slander?




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  20. On a more positive note, check out the wonderful story on SDA education published in The Science Christian Monitor:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/1115/For-real-education-reform-take-a-cue-from-the-Adventists?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4ce2d249c50baa7f%2C0

    Title: For real education reform, take a cue from the Adventists

    Byline: Amid all the buzz on education reform, the Seventh Day Adventist school system might seem an unexpected place to look for models in improving student achievement. But by educating mind, body, and spirit, Adventist schools outperform the national average across all demographics.

    Good work from the not-to-be-praised-university researchers!




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  21. I believe that we should be especially careful to guard against haveing a spirit of argumentativeness. Satan would like to reduce grand truths by making it seem like one man’s opinion against another’s.

    Noble and grand truths cannot be controverted by those who wish to undermine them. The truth is it’s own best defense, we need not put out our own hand to protect it as Uzza did.

    Not all the professionalism, scientific jargan or surmisings of mankind can change the fact that God made the world in 6 days, and is creater of heaven and earth.

    [edit] Obvious, incontrovertable young earth evidence: Rate of erosion of all the world’s major waterfalls to where they are now shows they cannot have been in place more than a few thousand years. Depth of ocean sediments, the fact that we still have top soil on continents, rate of earths magnetic field decay, etc., etc, etc. Evolution is not “progressive” thinking, it is dark ages ignorance, a terrible pity that people in a modern age of enlightenment would still be willing to accept such ideas. How mankind needs a Savior from sin more than anything else- only when we are free from selfishness and love of sin will we be free to do unbiased, truly objective and scientific research!




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  22. @Professor Kent: When a child gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar and then goes around acting as if he did nothing in the first place, and won’t own up to what he did, I wonder what he his still hiding? Anyone else feel this way too?

    SUPPOSE that LSU is on the right track regarding their biological origin curriculum, they need to be monitored for a while to ensure that things are still being done right. Let’s call it QA (Quality Assurance), every organization needs that. Then let’s move on to the next issue with them. It would be time to guide the religion department to the correct teaching on gay marriage, since they have been off on that and teaching our young people that homosexuality is ok and homosexual marriage should be acceptable to the church.

    I don’t suppose for a moment think that LSU is on the straight and narrow, because they still act guilty. If they want to have the confidence of their constituency, then come clean and be transparent. The SDA church is their constituency, we pay the bills, we have a RIGHT to know what product we are getting. It they have nothing to hide, then transparency will fix all of their problems with Educate Truth!




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  23. @Professor Kent:

    “LSU has affirmed that it is Adventist, that it fully supports the SDA Church, and teaches its fundamental beliefs.”

    Like McDonalds says it’s food is healthy, but it took legislation to make them publish their nutritional information. Yeah, right.




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  24. @Professor Kent:

    LSU has affirmed that it is Adventist, that it fully supports the SDA Church, and teaches its fundamental beliefs.

    The president of the Michigan conference and Prof Bradley in statements to to the press – have affirmed that LSU is nothing of the sort.

    So now we have the “affirmations”.

    Next comes to the evidence – looking at what they teach, observing what is said in class – listening to students.

    Hint; NO LSU STUDENT has come to Educate Truth stating that they heard Prof Bradley promoting a literal 7 day creation week less than 10,000 years ago as something that actually happened in nature.

    At what point is the objective unbiased reader suppose to turn a blind eye to the disconfirming evidence so as to believe a certain claim?

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  25. Bob, did you consider the possibility that Prof Bradley has changed his pedagogical approach? Have you considered the possibility that he was ordered by administration to change his pedagogical approach? How have you ruled out these possibilities?

    La Sierra has actually invited the proper SDA authority to examine its biology teaching. You appear offended that they have ignored your demands to answer directly to Educate Truth.




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  26. @Professor Kent: Who is that masked professor? Inquiring minds yearn to know. But seriously, Professor Kent, yours are the most arresting and evocative posts on this landscape, by far, giving it a certain inimitable texture. For better insight into your thoughts, more information about you would be very useful and appreciated, e.g., CV, bio, web sites, papers published, awards. As a reward for granting these data you may brand me malicious and defamatory, prn ad lib, 3x in the next 90 minutes. Thank you for your consideration.




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  27. If LSU has changed its POV about how biology courses are to be presented, then there would be a published apology to Louie Bishop and the entire SDA church at large. Where is it? They have boxed themselves into a convoluted corner. On one hand they claim they are creation supporting SDA’s who teach exactly like all other SDA universities. (Anyone walked the halls of SAU’s biology department recently and observed the creation-evidence displays?) On the other hand LSU’s own faculty senate resolution deifies academic freedom and WASC has confirmed that academic freedom, current societal/science norms, student body diversity, and AUTONOMY from the church are the defining pillars of LSU’s state-of-being. Will the real LSU stand up? …While we’re waiting…that’s the reason this web-site and all this hub-bub got started in the first place. Many of us (parents especially) don’t want to be fooled into paying for a secular quasi-religious education instead of a Seventh-day Adventist education.




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  28. Wesley, I would like to meet you one day in heaven where we can embrace. In the meanwhile, I’m an academic who interacts daily with non-SDAs and non-believers at a non-denominational institution I am comfortable at. I treat these people with utmost respect, and I get the same in return. I get many opportunities to witness to these people, mostly because they know I am a devoted Christian who engages in serious science, and they are curious as to what I believe. I love to share, but only when asked or find an opportune moment. I’m told that I’m “different” as a Christian because I do not criticize or condemn others for their unbelief. I’m also seen as open-minded and generally supportive of others, but willing to defend those who are mistreated. Apparently, these qualities may be seen as flaws as an Adventist, but I am what I am, and I’m not walking away from the Church no matter how imperfect and unpurified it is.

    I am disinclined to reveal my identify here for fear that colleagues and students who look me up will read all the horrific stuff at this website. I can assure you they would find Adventism to be disgusting and nauseating. I don’t want them to see this side of us. I love my God and love my Church and weep at the way Christians too often treat each other…and defend the harsh treatment as a “duty.”

    So that’s why I am content to be known only as Professor Kent.

    God bless you, Wesley.




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  29. I have done some prayerful reading of instruction from the Bible and from Ellen White about avoiding an argumentative spirit. In participating at this unGodly website, I have erred egregiously. I have sought to defend faith against the misuse of science and abuse of fellow believers, but I have not always done so in the right spirit.

    If anyone should lose their belief because they see insufficient science to support their views, I’m afraid they have not taken a daily walk with Jesus. To know Him is to believe in Him. As it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

    God bless you all.




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  30. Professor Kent says:
    November 17, 2010 Bob, did you consider the possibility that Prof Bradley has changed his pedagogical approach? Have you considered the possibility that he was ordered by administration to change his pedagogical approach? How have you ruled out these possibilities?

    We can imagine such a thing I suppose.

    But in Bradley’s “own words” to the press – the issue was not “pedagogy” – it was firmly held beliefs that science flatly contradicts our doctrines and that he was not going to sacrifice his beliefs in evolutionism “for doctrinal consistency”. In fact Bradley specifically goes after that point when he states that he laments the fact that he even has to claim to be a practicing Seventh-day Adventist to be tenured in our University.

    By bending the whole issue around to “pedagogy” – (if they were to make such a wild error) they would be arguing that the convictions of the teacher should not “be seen” in their teaching – in cases where the teacher believes as firmly in evolutionism as Bradley claimed to believe.

    #1. That is not practical.
    #2. I doubt it is realistically possible.

    The beliefs of a good teacher will always surface if they are presenting the subject with all of their heart and soul – the way a truly engaged, enthusiastic, creative teacher must.

    If they had a biology department staffed by evolutionists yesterday and they simply muzzle them – then they end up with a biology department staffed by bitter prepressed evolutionists today. The fact that they tell them to stop brow-beating the creationist students as part of their pedagogy – may help to some extent, but the resentment and bitterness of being forced to stick with “science” instead of wandering off into “birds come from reptiles” storytelling, is not going to be easy when the text books themselves are going down that road at times.

    It create endless opportunities to event a tinge of resentment here and there – passing it on to students and creating a generation students with a very dim view of the Church.

    A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. In the case you propose – it is not “convincing them” of anything regarding evolutionism. Your story suggests that they are not allowed to promote it the precise way they did before, as if a muzzled evolutionist is the same thing as a teacher who actually believes in and promotes SDA doctrines on origins. What parent would want to send their student into that field of land mines??

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  31. And by prepressed – I mean repressed of course. 😉

    It create endless opportunities to express a tinge of resentment here and there – passing it on to students and creating a generation of students with a very dim view of the Church




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  32. In participating at this Godly website, I have sought to defend faith against the misuse of science and abuse of fellow believers where they have unwittingly swallowed the stories of evolutionism instead of applying the critical thinking necessary to distinguish objective proven science from junk science.

    We can all agree that science “is not the Bible” and does not give us the Bible record for origins in the form of something like “a 7 day creation week”. But when we look up into the sky we expect to see TWO great lights the greater to rule by day and the lesser by night — as per Genesis 1 – and literal day 4 of creation week — not 3 suns or 3 mmons and a sun.

    We expect to see in nature the logical results of the real events in scripture. This is not as “unscientific” as some of our evolutionist friends might like to imagine.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  33. May we always remember to keep the spirit of Christ’s redemptive love in all our dealings.

    Though my viewpoints are different than things that have been said, I feel really touched by what Professor Kent has said in the last couple of posts, trying to seek some reconcilliation.

    My experience is that so often we argue too strongly for our points, and our sinful impatience comes out instead of the truth. I myself have been a very strong defender of values and truths in so many situations, and I believe that is very much a duty for Christians, but sadly often found that I have not spoken carefully with a heart filled with love. We must be strong and stand for the truth, while at the same time doing all we can to keep the “law of kindness” on our tongue, and avoid speaking “like the thrusts of a sword,” as Sister White also says “avoid all sharpness,” avoid things which might spark someone to feel angry. Then we may find that in many cases we may be reconcilled to our brethren, while yet avoiding the opposite extreme of compromising the truth in any way, and while yet sharing openly and clearly about the truths and standing up for what is right.

    May the Lord bless each one.




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  34. Re Prof Kent’s Quotes

    “I have done some prayerful reading of instruction from the Bible and from Ellen White about avoiding an argumentative spirit. In participating at this unGodly website, I have erred egregiously. I have sought to defend faith against the misuse of science and abuse of fellow believers, but I have not always done so in the right spirit.

    If anyone should lose their belief because they see insufficient science to support their views, I’m afraid they have not taken a daily walk with Jesus. To know Him is to believe in Him. As it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

    God bless you all. Professor Kent(Quote)”

    “As Geanna once wrote, it is finished. Professor Kent(Quote)”

    Dear Prof Kent

    I am sad to see you no longer are going to participate. I think you made many valuable contributions to the debate and I will miss your comments.

    If I may venture a few agnostic comments that I hope you can receive in the right spirit.

    It is very difficult for people of strong convictions to not take things personally, especially when dealing with a topic like faith. When one is strongly convicted when feels with all of one’s head that and heart that one is right. I respectfully suggest many, of different opinions on this site, are riding in that ‘ark’. That is why at times the arguments or debate becomes personalized and heated. That is why, in my respectful opinion, it is so important to use science, independent of faith or non faith, as an objective tool to look at reality. An atheist is never going to disprove God by science, just perhaps render doubts as to the nature of God.

    It appears that you have looked into your heart and understand that perhaps personalized attacks are inappropriate. Good for you, I think you are right. Hopefully others will be influenced by your example.

    However, I respectfully suggest that your comment about the site being unGodly may be a tad harsh and a bit judgmental. I hope you do not take my comment personally. Ironically, the very fact that the site allows for a vast, democratic plethora of opinion, strikes me as exactly what a just god would want.

    Perhaps it is not so much the site but how we behave on the site that is more the issue. For example, of all that I have seen participate I would categorize myself as being the most unGodly, being a non Christian who thinks that evolution is the most likely theory or origins. And yet everyone has treated me with courtesy, respect and kindness. That is a fine example of Adventism and Christian charity, that in my humble estimation tops any dispute over origins.

    You and Sean feel very strong about your respective positions but you are far closer in conviction than this non believer. You are both good men.

    Time is great healer of wounded feelings.

    Go in peace my brother and be well.

    Your grateful agnostic friend
    Ken




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  35. Re Bob’s Quote

    “We can all agree that science “is not the Bible” and does not give us the Bible record for origins in the form of something like “a 7 day creation week”. But when we look up into the sky we expect to see TWO great lights the greater to rule by day and the lesser by night — as per Genesis 1 – and literal day 4 of creation week — not 3 suns or 3 mmons and a sun. ”

    Dear Bob

    Thanks for your candid, fair comments about the difference between science and the Bible.

    I say the following tongue in cheek. When I look up at night I see a lot more than ‘3’ suns. But – just as was likely the case for the author of Genesis – my perspective is relative to my temporal understanding of reality.

    Cheers
    Ken




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  36. Hi Ken,

    Thanks for your thoughtful contributions. I appreciate your spirit and see that you are a deeply intelligent individual.

    I’d like to ask you a little about what you have shared. Do you really think it’s possible to separate science from faith? In a similar way, how can we separate the mind from the body and the spirit?

    In regard to our existence, all these elements have mutual influence and the whole must be considered in order to truly understand our being. Modern medicine, though excellent in things like diagnostics and emergency care, etc, has mostly neglected to take that aspect into consideration in the treatment of disease, I believe, as it largely considers merely the physical element, viewing such a method as “objective” and “scientific.” But it would perhaps be more accurate a science to treat individuals holistically, and help them connect spiritually with their Creator who has power to restore the whole being.

    In a similar way, it has been sometimes suggested that considering the world through the eyes of science apart from faith would help us come to more objective conclusions. However, is that really so objective? It seems to be quite a strong bias that may lead to misinterpretation of facts and ignoring or covering up of evidence.

    In many cases, though it may not be the case with you, the bias against faith comes from a love for things that we know God requires of us, which He calls sin. It may also be from the fact that we as humans feel threatened by the thought of the existence of a Being in the universe so much higher than ourselves. It is a much more agreeable viewpoint to think that perhaps we ourselves are the highest being in the universe. For those scientists who work from that perspective, is that not something that could be called pride? Couldn’t it be said that their research is influenced by personal motives and an agenda to elevate the pride of man?

    Dear brother Ken, I would like to venture something, and hope that perhaps you may consider it sometime when you are looking into the stars of the night. That is, that I believe there is far more scientific, objective and even obvious evidence for the theory of creation just as the Bible states it than there is for evolution. That, in fact, the evidence for the theory of evolution is negligible, and scientists are grasping at straws to try to make the theory work. The missing links have not been found for evolution, but they are there for creation. Many scientists themselves are giving up on the theory of evolution, or have shown a tendency to switch over to almost any kind of far-out idea available, rather than accepting creation (such as the “hopeful monsters” concept of a lizard laying an egg and a bird hatching out, etc). That can hardly be considered objective science, it’s more like something that is based on an agenda.

    One example of a university professor who vehemently supported and taught the theory of evolution, who later came to believe in creation is Walter Veith of South Africa. He now promotes creation all over the world, and has a lot of good information on his website, etc. having come from the perspective of a teacher of evolution.

    It is quite sad, though, that because of the personal failings of Christians who show impatience and unkindness which is not according to our Lord’s example or instructions, people are led to believe that faith causes you to loose calm, scientific objectivity. I hope you will consider that these manifestations of individuals may not truly reflect the whole of what it means to have faith.

    Hey, take care, OK? Peace to you…

    Vicki




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  37. Re Vicki’s Quote

    “Do you really think it’s possible to separate science from faith?”

    Dear Vicki

    I so enjoyed your lovely thoughtful comments. I need a bit of time to digest everything you said and give you a full response. But in a nutshell, ideally I think one should strive to separate science from a faith or non faith bias.

    Can people of faith or non faith looks at things calmly and objectively? Certainly and I see this all the time. The danger is if one makes faith or non faith the overlord of science then science must serve that master or mistress. That, in my respectful opinion, is where science can lose its independence and objectivity.

    I do respect your points respecting evolution but frankly I don’t see the theory as necessarily neing an atheist conspiracy. Could natural selection be part of a grander, yet still hidden design, that mankind has not yet discovered? Possibly, although I would not categorize myself as a theistic evolutionist. Could there be other factors driving evolution other than mindless evolution? Possibly, although I think that is speculation at this point in time.

    I don’t think that micro evolution is an issue is it? Animals do mutate and adapt to their environments. The issue is the degree of this sequential adaptation over what period of time and whether organisms have evolved from the simple to the complex.

    I do understand that it is difficult for the human mind to comprehend how such adaptation could start with chemical soup to bring us the vast diversity of life on the planet today. It is certainly easier to comprehend creation of the whole. But I think it is very difficult to comprehend how that vast biodiversity occurred over approximately 4000 years from the subset of animals that came off an ark.

    Well it is getting late and all the letters are beginning to meld together on the page.

    I’ll continue in a more refreshed vein at a later time.

    I hope this finds you in fine spirit.

    Cheers
    Ken




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  38. When schools like SAU and Soutwestern and Andrews say they teach microbiology and genetics (genetic defects/mutations and all) — “some” people accuse them of not “teaching evolutionism” if that is all they teach along the way of evolutionism’s doctrines.

    The good thing is that these are hard sciences – they are observable and the data is clear – no eukaryote cells poping out of abiotic swill.

    It is not difficult at all to conclude that “given all of the major genomes” coming off of the ark 4500 years ago as the starting condition, mutation within a genome could result in a large of amount of variation within a genome. Especially when we take into account the large impact that environment has on epigenome influence over the final phenotype. As the individuals within the major genomes spread out into locations with specialized environments – the corresponding phenotype changes and a very strong adaptaive gene activiation process could easily account for the present diversity in the 4500 year window that is proposed.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  39. @ken:

    Re Bob’s Quote

    “We can all agree that science “is not the Bible” and does not give us the Bible record for origins in the form of something like “a 7 day creation week”. But when we look up into the sky we expect to see TWO great lights the greater to rule by day and the lesser by night — as per Genesis 1 – and literal day 4 of creation week — not 3 suns or 3 mmons and a sun. ”

    Dear Bob

    Thanks for your candid, fair comments about the difference between science and the Bible.

    I say the following tongue in cheek. When I look up at night I see a lot more than ’3′ suns. But – just as was likely the case for the author of Genesis – my perspective is relative to my temporal understanding of reality.

    Ken – point noted. However on day 4 only two of the many lights you see are “made” on day 4. Interestingly Moses also mentions the rest of those lights as well “the stars ALSO” as that which God created – prior to the 7 day creation week for earth and all life on this planet.

    Thus to be consistent with the text – when we look up into the sky we “expect” that we will see the TWO great lights (the greater to rule the day and the lesser to rule the night) and we also expect to see “the stars also” as Gen 1:16 states.

    The point being that what we see IN nature is expected to match what the Bible says happened “IN nature” — caused by God. This is true of creation week, it is true of the flood and it is why there is such a thing as Biblical archaeology. We “expect to find” in nature the artifacts of known events in the past.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  40. Re Bob’s Quote

    “Thus to be consistent with the text – when we look up into the sky we “expect” that we will see the TWO great lights (the greater to rule the day and the lesser to rule the night) and we also expect to see “the stars also” as Gen 1:16 states.

    The point being that what we see IN nature is expected to match what the Bible says happened “IN nature” — caused by God. This is true of creation week, it is true of the flood and it is why there is such a thing as Biblical archaeology. We “expect to find” in nature the artifacts of known events in the past.”

    Dear Bob

    Thanks Bob, that is edifying.

    Presumably what the author of Genesis (Moses?) ‘saw’ in nature would match what was written. If I was Moses and saw the sun and moon I would write about two great lights being created. Trite to point out that Moses wasn’t around when the lights were first switched on.

    Happy Friday
    Ken




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  41. Trite to point out that Moses wasn’t around when the lights were first switched on.Happy Friday
    Ken  

    True, but Moses spoke to God which who switched on those lights and inspired Moses what to write. So what exactly are you trying to say – that Moses wasn’t inspired in what he wrote…that its just what anybody could have written?




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  42. From the Atheist POV – the Bible contains no revelation. Thus for the atheist Moses could just as well have written that the earth was created in 7 years, or 70 years or 700 years or 7 minutes.

    But then, that non-God POV struggles when it comes to Daniel writing in the 6th century B.C and predicting world history down to the 20th century A.D. with 4 successive empires beginning with Babylone followed by a divided Europe that never recombines into a single empire again – and he even gets 1260 years for the dark ages and the year for the start of Christ’s ministry!

    The other interesting feature is that Moses comes out of Egypt preaching monotheism – and manages to destroy the entire Egyptian army with a rag-tag group of freed slaves swimming across the “reed sea”.

    The other “facinating detail” is that Moses has a command of genetics unknown until the 19th century as he points out that the Rams that are mating are the ones that cary the “trait” for the spotted or solid-color sheep instead of what Jacob thinks is the “ideal science” having to do with mating in plain sight of a striped pole.

    So while I agree that in the creation story itself – there is nothing to convince a non-Christian that this is divinely revealed video of the actual creation event – there are other details in scripture that are not so easy to dismiss.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  43. Re Kirk’s Quote

    “True, but Moses spoke to God which who switched on those lights and inspired Moses what to write. So what exactly are you trying to say – that Moses wasn’t inspired in what he wrote…that its just what anybody could have written? Kirk(Quote)”

    Dear Kirk

    Thanks for your comments.

    I don’t know what inspired Moses, or EGW, or Mohammed, or Buddha, or….

    Why, because I wasn’t there and don’t know them. Perhaps they were all divinely inspired. Perhaps God divinely revealed evolution to Darwin. I don’t know that. Takes faith I guess. I prefer rational inquiry without a faith or non faith bias.

    Hope that helps and that you are having a grat Sabbath.

    Your agnostic friend
    Ken




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  44. Re Bob’s Quote

    “But then, that non-God POV struggles when it comes to Daniel writing in the 6th century B.C and predicting world history down to the 20th century A.D.”

    Dear Bob

    Literally or with interpretation?

    Can you prove this empirically Bob? Not a story like birds from dinosaurs is it?

    Cheers
    Ken




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  45. Re Kirk’s Quote“True, but Moses spoke to God which who switched on those lights and inspired Moses what to write. So what exactly are you trying to say – that Moses wasn’t inspired in what he wrote…that its just what anybody could have written? Kirk(Quote)”Dear KirkThanks for your comments.I don’t know what inspired Moses, or EGW, or Mohammed, or Buddha, or….Why, because I wasn’t there and don’t know them. Perhaps they were all divinely inspired. Perhaps God divinely revealed evolution to Darwin. I don’t know that. Takes faith I guess. I prefer rational inquiry without a faith or non faith bias.Hope that helps and that you are having a grat Sabbath.Your agnostic friendKen  (Quote)

    ken,
    have you seen the air we breathe in and out. I haven’t, but I have faith and believe that I am breathing air.
    did the computers, tv evolve from nothing? they were created/invented by people who have the ideas/dreams and perfected by others along the way.
    if I tell you 25 years ago that you would be able to talk to someone at the other side of world and at the same time see their face (skype/cell phone) you will tell me that I am a crazy dreamer.
    I believe and have faith that God created this world in 6 days and rested on the 7th day (Sabbath). I wasn’t there when Moses wrote Genesis, but I believe He was inspired by GOD to write it. There are things that we cannot explain rationally, no matter how we try, that’s where Faith, believe and hope comes in.

    clee




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  46. “But then, that non-God POV struggles when it comes to Daniel writing in the 6th century B.C and predicting world history down to the 20th century A.D.”

    Dear Bob

    Literally or with interpretation?

    Can you prove this empirically Bob? Not a story like birds from dinosaurs is it?

    Ken the text itself predicts 4 empires and then a divided state for that territory where attempts are made to reunite them primarily through marriages between the heads of state – but nothing works.

    Babylon is named in the form of saying to the King of Babylon “you are the head of gold” in Dan 2. (4 metals representing the 4 empires then the composite iron with clay to represent the divided state followed by the Kingdom of God in the time of the split into “ten” divisions for that empire).

    Medo Persia is “named” in Dan 8 as the 2nd empire.

    Greece is “named” in Dan 8 as the 3rd empire.

    Rome is not named it is merely predicted and then the divided state represented in Dan 7 by the 10 horns (as it was in Dan 2 by the ten toes).

    It also shows in Dan 7 – 1260 years of the dark ages that occurs during the time of the divided ten-horn state.

    Then in Dan 9 it actually predicts the date for the first coming of Christ – the start of his ministry – a 490 year timeline with starting events recorded in the book of Ezra and the ending event, the anointing of Christ at His baptism.

    The supernatural predictive element in that one book alone is sufficient to show that this is not all just the natural result of rocks, water, gas, sunlight and time.

    (Of course we could say the same about the obvious complexity in a single living cell as well).

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  47. Dear Bob

    As always thanks for the biblical edification.

    What is the 4th empire?

    Just curious, did Daniel predict the rise of Nazi Germany, America, Russia or China?

    Thanks
    Ken




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  48. Ken – the empire that follows Greece is Rome. The division of Rome as predicted in the vision leaves that empire fragmented to this very day. And as predicted attempts were made to rebuild the empire through royal blood line marriages – in fact all the heads of state in Europe were connected by blood line or marriage at one time.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  49. From the comments I assume that the accreditation team is hard at work by now. For those of you that have never served on such a team, the purpose of an accreditation is not to evaluate the school, BUT to evaluate the school in light of what the school says it is doing. So this issue would be part of the evaluation if in fact LSU says it is an Adventist institution, and teaches creation science in the biology department. If it doesn’t make these claims either in its handbook or on its website or in publications about the school then it probably would not be within the scope of the work of the committee. Since LSU has already mentioned the issue in their self-study, then it is safe to assume that it will be included. We all need to pray for this committee.

    As to the other comments about being Christlike and polite–sometimes when we are standing for what it right it is very difficult to be polite. Check out history–the reformers weren’t always polite either!




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  50. Re Bob’s Quote

    “Ken – the empire that follows Greece is Rome. The division of Rome as predicted in the vision leaves that empire fragmented to this very day. And as predicted attempts were made to rebuild the empire through royal blood line marriages – in fact all the heads of state in Europe were connected by blood line or marriage at one time.

    in Christ,

    Bob BobRyan(Quote)”

    Dear Bob

    Thanks again, I appreciate your comments and defer to your scholarship of the Bible.

    My point is whether there is anything in Daniel that prophecizes about empires since the demise of the Roman Empire: i.e. British Empire, French under Napoleon, Third Reich, Russian, American, Chinese – happening currently? Not all of these empires are necessarily connected to Rome. What does the bible have to say about them?

    Thanks
    Ken




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  51. Hi Bob

    I’ve been reading up on the prophecies of Daniel. Complicated stuff: big horns, a little horn, four empires, ten kingdoms, 2300 days or years, 70 weeks or years, chiastic strucuture, etc,

    Wow! That is some story.

    From what I have read so far there seems to be a great deal of disparity in how it is interpreted. I can understand that seeing all the esoteric symbolism involved and different computations of time.

    By the way what countries do you associate with the ten horns or toes? I guess those ones are still in existence. aren’t they?

    Regards
    Ken




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  52. Ken – yes the ten divisions of Europe are still in existence – except for three – recall that in the vision 3 of the ten are uprooted by the little horn power that rises out of that group.

    The little horn power of Dan 7 is the same as that of Dan 8 – it is the papacy. And in this case pro-Catholic scholars and historians like Thomas Bokenkotter and Malachi Martin agree that the papacy was the biggest thing to come out of the Roman Empire – and that it took over more land and held it for a longer period than pagan-Rome itself.

    Thus the 1260 years of persecution of the saints that is seen in Dan 7 and repeated for the reader again in Rev 11 and Rev 12, fits like a glove.

    Daniel’s vision reaches all the way to the 19th century from the 6th century BC!!

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  53. Thanks again, I appreciate your comments and defer to your scholarship of the Bible.
    My point is whether there is anything in Daniel that prophecizes about empires since the demise of the Roman Empire: i.e. British Empire, French under Napoleon, Third Reich, Russian, American, Chinese – happening currently? Not all of these empires are necessarily connected to Rome. What does the bible have to say about them?

    Ken – the French are only briefly mentioned in Revelation 11. The Bible deals primarily with the empires that owned Israel up until the fall of Rome and the rise of the papacy.

    By comparison even Germany, France and Russia were tiny blips on a screen that covered 23 centuries.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  54. From the comments I assume that the accreditation team is hard at work by now. For those of you that have never served on such a team, the purpose of an accreditation is not to evaluate the school, BUT to evaluate the school in light of what the school says it is doing. So this issue would be part of the evaluation if in fact LSU says it is an Adventist institution, and teaches creation science in the biology department. If it doesn’t make these claims either in its handbook or on its website or in publications about the school then it probably would not be within the scope of the work of the committee. Since LSU has already mentioned the issue in their self-study, then it is safe to assume that it will be included. We all need to pray for this committee.

    I agree that we need to be in prayer daily over these issues.

    However the SDA church is currently defined as the body that owns and operates our Universities. We are not simply a “friend organization” or a group of “interested parties” watching on the sidelines when it comes to this AAA certification.

    If our leaders were to walk away from this turning a blind eye to the magnitude of the problem as it is today – we would be in huge trouble as a denomination.

    Not only would we lose LSU – we would lose a number of other Universities as well.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  55. Re Bob’s Quotes

    “Ken – yes the ten divisions of Europe are still in existence – except for three – recall that in the vision 3 of the ten are uprooted by the little horn power that rises out of that group.”

    “Daniel’s vision reaches all the way to the 19th century from the 6th century BC!!”

    “By comparison even Germany, France and Russia were tiny blips on a screen that covered 23 centuries.”

    Dear Bob

    Thanks for your comments, very helpful.

    First of all an apology. A few posts back I made a sarcastic reference to you ‘oft’ stated birds from reptiles analogy. That was uncalled for and petty on my part. To your great credit you did not retaliate in kind. That speaks highly to your Christian spirit! I’m sorry and I’ll try to climb out of the gutter and back up on the curb as we go forward.

    Now, back to Daniel. I understand and appreciate your point regarding the modern empires perhaps being small blips on the screen of prophecy, thus not mentioned. Here is where I need help. In terms of eschatology are Daniel’s visions meant to take us through to the penultimate return of Christ? Of does one have to go to Revelations to supplement what Daniel predicted up to the 19th century?

    Thanks for your help
    Ken




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  56. I would like to point out a recent & very pertinent fact: During the GC Atlanta 2010 Session, when I spent considerable time out in the exhibit hall, it was exceeding obvious that schools like Southern, Andrews, Oakwood, Union were all handing out pro literal+24/7+recent Creation materials that contained significant substantial information from science, theology and archaeology that supports the SDA belief on Creation as per Scripture. Very conspicuously absent was LSU from this endeavor.

    Instead, the LSU focus was platitudinal leaflets saying “we are proudly Adventist”…”we are proud of our open & supportive academic environment”, etc. There was NO information whatsoever from LSU that they were affirming & supportive of the literal+24/7+recent Creation as per Ted Wilson’s clear statement as GC President.




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  57. Just reading an advertisement in a recent (November, 2010) union conference paper from Southwestern Adventist University:

    “PH.D. prepared biologists for spring 2011. Looking for talented, committed SDA creationist…contact Dr. Suzanne Phillips, Chair, Biology. SWAU….”

    Obviously it is now necessary to send a message that it is a committed SDA creationist that is desired to teach our youth.

    Thank you SWAU and Dr. Phillips for that stand! This speaks volumes about the condition of things in our church’s education institutions ref evolution vs creation.




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  58. “PH.D. prepared biologists for spring 2011. Looking for talented, committed SDA creationist…contact Dr. Suzanne Phillips, Chair, Biology. SWAU….”

    As I posted last night on another thread (Taking a Cue from Adventist Education), SWAU was apparently looking for these two Elijahs a year ago. SAU failed to hire two or three last year as well. You folks are simply delusional if you think the Church is going to cough up these individuals and the ones needed to replace all the evilutionists that you are trying to root out here. Delusional. With a capital “D.” And your wonderful website, with its wonderful approach, won’t make these SDA positions any more inviting for applicants–I’ll guarantee you that.

    If you want to destroy our universities, keep the stories and comments coming.




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  59. @Admin:

    Ken & Bob,We can facilitate an email exchange between the two of you if you wish, so you can continue your exchange about the prophecies of Daniel in private.Educate Truth Staff  (Quote)

    I am happy to do it and will include Vicki for her input as well.

    If you pass our information on to Ken he can decide if he wants to continue the discussion.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  60. @Professor Kent: Are you saying it’s better to keep our biology departments open even though it’ll be teaching heresy? It’s better to close our colleges than to hand them over to error with the Seventh-day Adventist name still on them.

    To advocate putting up with it just because is absolutely delusional and an insult to our God. We’re making too many excuses for keeping the status quo. God’s people need a little bit more backbone, even if it means plucking out the right eye. Unfortunately, such is the nature of sin. It’s removal may be very painful for most.




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  61. As I posted last night on another thread (Taking a Cue from Adventist Education), SWAU was apparently looking for these two Elijahs a year ago. SAU failed to hire two or three last year as well. You folks are simply delusional if you think the Church is going to cough up these individuals and the ones needed to replace all the evilutionists that you are trying to root out here. Delusional. With a capital “D.” And your wonderful website, with its wonderful approach, won’t make these SDA positions any more inviting for applicants–I’ll guarantee you that.If you want to destroy our universities, keep the stories and comments coming.  (Quote)

    Pro Kent, that is patently absurd: I will counter that if our universities are THAT vulnerable as to be able to be destroyed by factual comments & stories of substance, then they aren’t supported by righteousness in the first place.

    The SDA Universities doing what is right by God have nothing to worry about — HE will sustain them. Truth has no fear of error. Never has, never will – end of story!




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  62. @ Johnny Vance

    Are you saying it’s better to keep our biology departments open even though it’ll be teaching heresy? It’s better to close our colleges than to hand them over to error with the Seventh-day Adventist name still on them.

    No, I’m not saying that. You keep the departments open and work with the people you have, the majority of which are extremely supportive of the Church.

    I’m totally behind the concept that SDA biologists must support and teach SDA beliefs with respect. However, I’m opposed to “exposing,” labeling as “theives,” and firing those who don’t teach Pitman’s personal interpretation that the “weight of evidence supports the Church’s position.” Pitman’s interpretation is one that the Church has never required–and never will–of its university professors. And the Church will never embrace his notion that evidence trumps faith. Never.




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  63. Pro Kent, that is patently absurd: I will counter that if our universities are THAT vulnerable as to be able to be destroyed by factual comments & stories of substance, then they aren’t supported by righteousness in the first place.

    The old message “do not do what is right or you will suffer or may be inconvenienced in some way” has been around since the garden of Eden.

    In the mean time “actual science” does not show “birds coming from reptiles” and does not show complex genomes arising out of simpler ones. Which means that holding to what the Bible actually says on the doctrine on origins AND admitting to what science “actually shows” is not a problem.

    The problem is the absurd notion of “believing in something that never happened in nature” (as even atheist evolutionists now admit about Othaniel Marsh’s fraudulently arranged horse fossil sequence) – while tossing the Bible out the window to do so.

    As Kent points out – if you hold to points of fact, to actual truth in terms of “what really happened in nature” then just maybe you will not be incouraging the populist evolutionist to come and join you – and that in Kent’s mind appears to be “a bad thing”.

    Oh well.

    in Christ,

    Bob




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  64. Bob Ryan wrote

    As Kent points out – if you hold to points of fact, to actual truth in terms of “what really happened in nature” then just maybe you will not be incouraging the populist evolutionist to come and join you – and that in Kent’s mind appears to be “a bad thing”.

    This is yet another of many gross and purposeful distortions of what I’ve stated.




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  65. Alex has stated that the AAA report has concluded. Does anyone have something like “information”? Details that indicate the degree to which LSU will be prohibited from (or encouraged to) continue promoting evolutionism in their biology and religion departments as the right answer for a doctrine on origins of all complex genomes (birds come from reptiles fashion)?

    in Christ,

    Bob




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