Comment on A big reason why so many people are leaving the church by Shane Hilde.
1. The messianic prophecies and their fulfillment in Jesus;
These are based on external evidence, otherwise there would be no way of knowing whether they were really true.
2. The internal consistency of doctrine and teaching over the course of hundreds of years, as reflected in the writings of numerous authors;
Internal consistency is not evidence for divine revelation. Most novels have internal consistency. I think you could make the argument that this is evidence of a divine mind influencing all these writers; however, a similar argument could be made for the Book of Mormon or the Koran.
3. The sanctuary system’s typology that connects the Old Testament with the New Testament;
None of this really matters unless there really were Israelites out in the desert that built a tabernacle. I don’t understand how this shows the Bible is true. Typologies can be made up later.
4. The courage and zeal of the disciples after the crucifixion;
This only matters if Christ’s crucifixion is a historical event. I think there is some merit to this because there are four gospels and the book of Acts that attest to this historical event. I would point out though that the trustworthiness of the gospels is deeply rooted in the factual claims they make about history.
5. The candor and self-effacement reflected in the descriptions of persons and nations;
This just means the authors were more honest than other historians, but really how could I know that unless I had something to compare it with.
6. The fulfillment of some apocalyptic prophecies of Daniel, as reflected in New Testament writings;
This relies on external evidence. I think prophecy is one of the strongest pieces of evidence for the trustworthiness of the Bible, but they would mean nothing if we couldn’t verify the truthfulness of the prophecies in history.
7. The numerous references in which the Scriptural writings of others are confirmed– e.g., Peter characterizes the writings of Paul as Scripture–(and why [Sean Pitman] would call this kind of affirmation “circular†escapes me);
Well this is circular reasoning. Me claiming that Sean’s writings are Scripture doesn’t make it so. It still begs the question.
8. The relative ease in differentiating Scripture from the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha;
This is true, but this in now way demonstrates truthfulness. Lots of authors are easily distinguished from others. Does that mean I should trust what they say as authoritative in my life?
9. The confirmed fact that the ancient writers and their contemporaries did not always understand the meaning of what was written;
Exactly how did we confirm that?
Yikes, I need to go to bed. I can appreciate many of the evidences you’ve provided, but they certainly don’t contradict what I’m trying to argue because you’re using external evidence too. I don’t see anything wrong with that, and I don’t know why you do.
Once you have arrived at the conclusion that the Bible is God’s Word then it becomes your ultimate standard by which you judge everything because it has prove to be so accurate in everything it claims.
I can touch on the other points later, but I got to get up early.
Shane Hilde Also Commented
A big reason why so many people are leaving the church
Professor Kent: I’m speaking to evidence that arises solely from scripture and the influence it has on one’s mind through the Holy Spirit.
If I understand you correctly, I don’t see how one could confirm the truth of the Bible unless it made claims that were testable. Listen, I’m not arguing that someone can’t come to believe in the Bible in the situation you described.
All I’ve been saying is that God never asks us to believe without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. This evidence can come from a number of sources: archeology, history, testimony, prophecy, fruition of God’s promises, a changed life, etc.
Ellen White said:
The greatest evidence of the power of Christianity that can be presented to the world is a well-ordered, well-disciplined family. This will recommend the truth as nothing else can, for it is a living witness of its practical power upon the heart. {AH 32.2}
A well-ordered, well-disciplined family is something we can see for ourselves. It confirms the claims and promises of the Bible. If I asked you why you believed the Bible was trustworthy and the Word of God, and all you said was because it says so, that means nothing to the person who does not know God.
If we can show nothing for our faith in God’s words, then our faith is nothing and useless. We essentially deny the power we claim it has. A changed life is empirical data. If a particular physical or mental exercise leads to a manifest change that is consistent and lasting, we can look at that and say, “Wow, there must be something to that Bible for it to produce a change like that in someone.” Even that kind of evidence is external.
I think we’re more in agreement than you may think.
A big reason why so many people are leaving the church
Jeff,
First, I need to understand whay you mean by “evidence within Scripture.” The Bible makes plenty of truth claims that can be verified in reality. If nothing the Bible claims can be verified in reality, on what basis can we trust it?
Might I remind you, Shane, of SDA Fundamental Belief #1: In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will.
I agree with this 100%, but every book has knowledge. If I buy a book that teaches me how to build a house, but once I actually start following the directions and things don’t turn out, it’s safe to assume the knowledge committed within the pages necessary for building a house is faulty. The statement of belief you refer to is regarding our view of Scripture, not how we arrived at that view.
Do you seriously want us to believe that God failed in providing sufficient evidence within scripture to come to God with the conviction He is real?
I’ve never suggested anything of the sort. The Bible claims to be God breathed. That’s quite the claim. If we can’t test that by any means, then how do we know the claim is true? We can test many of the Bible’s historical claims, scientific claims, impact on human character claims, God’s promises, etc. Those are all things that can be verified in reality.
That we have to approach God’s word as if He cannot be trusted, and therefore requires validation from elsewhere? That we cannot believe the knowledge God shared for salvation unless we find something more credible beyond God himself?
I’m really not understanding what you’re arguing. You attempt to rebutt me but then use the very thing you tell me I shouldn’t be using. God appeals to our reason. It’s the only way he can communicates to us.
We can believe anything we want. I didn’t say we weren’t capable of doing that, but do we have any reason or evidence for what we believe?
In order to trust the Bible, one has to have a reason to trust the Bible–able to produce some tangable evidence. This will vary from person to person. One person may not need all the scientific evidence to support their belief in a recent creation, but that doesn’t mean God hasn’t provided it.
I cannot imagine a source with more authority than God himself.
Neither can I. How do I decide who is God though? The god of Mormonism, the Koran, or any other Holy text?
I think the weight of evidence is in favor of the God of the Bible. No other book is prophetic and can take the scrutiny and still come out on top as being trustworthy in all its claims.
A big reason why so many people are leaving the church
Eddie: there is a LOT of biology to be learned that doesn’t really deal with the evolution-creation controversy
Agreed. Evolution has little to do with becoming a doctor, or pretty much any discipline that would utilize biology. Unless of course your dealing with a history oriented class dealing with origins.
Recent Comments by Shane Hilde
La Sierra University Hires Another Darwinist
ADvindicate has also published an article about LSU and Raul Diaz that expands on a few details.
http://advindicate.com/?p=2625
A little-known history about Belief 6
@Eddie: The Bible does not specify an age of accountability (to my knowledge), but the Israelites considered the age of 12 to be the turning point. I wouldn’t base a theology off of tradition though. Also, it’s not our place to judge what happens to those who have not been able to make a decision.
Perspectives from alleged LSU students
@Blodgett: Was there a comment you’d like to add?
At La Sierra, Biology Faculty Affirms Importance of Teaching About Creation in Curriculum
@David Read: And perhaps not something Christ would do. I can understand your frustration though. I’ve been on the verge of quitting this whole thing many times. I’ve been guilty of letting that frustration control and influence things I shouldn’t have said.
I have to remind myself to look at the big picture. In the end all those who are not supposed to be in the church will be sifted out. I pray I am not one of them.
Board of Trustees Addresses Curriculum Proposal
I know from talking to a couple of reporters from Press Enterprise and Inside Higher Ed that Randal Wisbey was effective in shutting down communication between any outsiders and the biology faculty. It appears he made himself the only channel of communication between the board and biology faculty.
I emailed Larry Becker about what bylaw the board members broke that was worthy of dismissal, and I have yet to hear a response from him.
I would also note that board members at other universities appear to be free to talk to the faculty.
Another interesting point. He removes three board members for trying to work on the problem and come up with a solution, and then turns around sort of embraces what they’re doing. He can’t publicly condemn it because everyone can see, whether you agree with what they wrote or not, that it’s a significant step for the faculty to be speaking to the church.
Did he forbid the document from being published? No. If you’re really excited about seeing the biology department making advancements in solving the issue, why are you removing the people who are making that happen. He never did anything like that.
What has Wisbey done to address and fix this issue? Nothing. He’s dragged it out, lied about what’s been happening, and told everyone involved to shut up or get in trouble. What on earth is he trying to do?
Who knows, he might even be a part of the underground movement to sever LSU from the church by using WASC as the big hammer. It’s obvious from one former board member, there was interest in using WASC to manipulate the situation.
