Sean Pitman says We are talking about paid representation of a …

Comment on The Credibility of Faith by Professor Kent.

Sean Pitman says

We are talking about paid representation of a sub-organization within the SDA Church that was created and is maintained by the SDA Church for the express reason of finding and presenting physical empirical evidence to support the Church’s position on origins.

Very well, Sean. This, of course, is your description and it may not be too far off the mark. But “finding and presenting the physical empirical evidence supporting the Church’s position on origins” is very different from telling the Church, “we have good news, everyone: there is overwhelming physical scientific evidence that supports our belief in a 6-day creation 6000 years–so much so, in fact, that our faith is now more “useful” than that of the Pastafarians.”

The Pastafarians, Sean? Do you really think we need to know that our faith is better than that of the Pastafarians who “believe” in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Hundreds of posts on the internet to establish this? Hoorah! We’re ahead of the Pastafarians!!!

Incidentally, the GRI website says

Does the success of science in other areas force us to conclude that scientific evidence for an evolutionary theory is irrefutable? The Geoscience Research Institute, founded in 1958, was established to address this question by looking at the scientific evidence concerning origins. The Institute uses both science and revelation to study the question of origins because it considers the exclusive use of science as too narrow an approach. The Institute serves the Seventh-day Adventist church in two major areas: research and communication.

I’m not reading anywhere that their official purpose is to reassure the Church that the evidence is overwhelming. Can you kindly point me to the source for your claim?

Professor Kent Also Commented

The Credibility of Faith
So the conclusion to all of this appears to be that, for SDAs, science and evidence trump faith. I completely disagree, but so be it.


The Credibility of Faith
Bob Ryan wrote

Predictably – every time evidence for either I.D or Young-life is brought up – Kent circles back to the straw man that we should IGNORE such evidence UNTIL it is showing us a 7 DAY event and also showing that it happened exactly 6000 years ago.

Bob himself has pointed out hundreds of times that SDAs believe in 6 days 6000 years ago. I have pointed out that this is a Biblically-based belief, sustained by faith, and is not based on scientific evidence. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if the view of 6 days 6000 years didn’t originat from the Bible because one certainly could not derive it from science alone. Evidence for I.D. and Young-life, which I have never stated should be ignored (another Bob Ryan fabrication), do not provide the basis for or validate 6 days 6000 years ago.

I’m not responding to the remainder of Bob’s psychodrivel.


The Credibility of Faith

Just don’t call your belief or faith anything other than blind faith – i.e., faith that isn’t based on the weight of empirical evidence.

Okay, whatever. I’ll live by faith, you can live by empirical evidence. I’m definitely finished with this go-nowhere conversation.

I think I’ll take a blindfolded stroll in Westminster Abbey next week and see whose tomb I end up at. Mabye it will be that of King Henry VIII, or Rudyard Kipling, or Laurence Olivier, or Alfred Lord Tennyson, or Isaac Newton…or maybe even Charles Darwin! I’ll bet I can sense in my gut whose grave it is before I take off the blindfold. I think I’ll also bring some spaghetti with me in case I end up at Darwin’s tomb. I could then enjoy slaying the flying monster for lunch while in Darwin’s company to remind me how blind my faith really is. Yeah…poetic justice.


Recent Comments by Professor Kent

Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

Sean Pitman: Science isn’t about “cold hard facts.” Science is about interpreting the “facts” as best as one can given limited background experiences and information. Such interpretations can be wrong and when shown to be wrong, the honest will in fact change to follow where the “weight of evidence” seems to be leading.

Much of science is based on highly technical data that few other than those who generate it can understand. For most questions, science yields data insufficient to support a single interpretation. And much of science leads to contradictory interpretations. Honest individuals will admit that they have a limited understanding of the science, and base their opinions on an extremely limited subset of information which they happen to find compelling whether or not the overall body of science backs it up.


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

Sean Pitman: The process of detecting artefacts as true artefacts is a real science based on prior experience, experimentation, and testing with the potential of future falsification. Oh, and I do happen to own a bona fide polished granite cube.

Not from Mars. Finding the cube on Mars is the basis of your cubical caricature of science, not some artefact under your roof.

Sean Pitman:
Professor Kent: If you think my brother-in-law who loves to fish in the Sea of Cortez is a scientist because he is trying to catch a wee little fish in a big vast sea, then I guess I need to view fishermen in a different light. I thought they were hobbyists.

The question is not if one will catch a fish, but if one will recognize a fish as a fish if one ever did catch a fish. That’s the scientific question here. And, yet again, the clear answer to this question is – Yes.

I think I’m going to spend the afternoon with my favorite scientist–my 8-year-old nephew. We’re going to go fishing at Lake Elsinore. He wants to know if we might catch a shark there. Brilliant scientist, that lad. He already grasps the importance of potentially falsifiable empirical evidence. I’m doubtful we’ll catch a fish, but I think he’ll recognize a fish if we do catch one.

While fishing, we’ll be scanning the skies to catch a glimpse of archaeopteryx flying by. He believes they might exist, and why not? Like the SETI scientist, he’s doing science to find the elusive evidence.

He scratched himself with a fish hook the other day and asked whether he was going to bleed. A few moments later, some blood emerged from the scratched. Talk about potentilly falsifiable data derived from a brilliant experiment. I’m telling you, the kid’s a brilliant scientist.

What’s really cool about science is that he doesn’t have to publish his observations (or lack thereof) to be doing very meaningful science. He doesn’t even need formal training or a brilliant mind. Did I mention he’s the only autistic scientist I’ve ever met?

As most everyone here knows, I have a poor understanding of science. But I’m pretty sure this nephew of mine will never lecture me or Pauluc on what constitutes science. He’s the most humble, polite, and soft-spoken scientist I’ve ever met.


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

Sean Pitman: I don’t think you understand the science or rational arguments behind the detection of an artefact as a true artefact. In fact, I don’t think you understand the basis of science in general.

I’m amused by this response. I don’t think you understand the limits of a philosophical argument based on a hypothetical situation, which is all that your convoluted cube story comprises, and nothing more. Whether the artefact is an artefact is immaterial to an argument that is philosophical and does not even consider an actual, bona fide artefact.

Sean Pitman: You argue that such conclusions aren’t “scientific”. If true, you’ve just removed forensic science, anthropology, history in general, and even SETI science from the realm of true fields of scientific study and investigation.

Forensic science, anthropology, and history in general all assume that humans exist and are responsible for the phenomenon examined. Authorities in these disciplines can devise hypotheses to explain the phenomenon they observe and can test them.

SETI assumes there might be non-human life elsewhere in the universe and is nothing more than an expensive fishing expedition. If you think my brother-in-law who loves to fish in the Sea of Cortez is a scientist because he is trying to catch a wee little fish in a big vast sea, then I guess I need to view fishermen in a different light. I thought they were hobbyists.

The search for a granite cube on Mars is nothing more than an exercise in hypotheticals. Call it science if you insist; I don’t see how it is different than a child waiting breathlessly all night beside the fireplace hoping to find Santa coming down the chimney.

I guess the number of science colleagues I acknowledge needs to grow exponentially. I apologize to those I have failed to recognize before as scientists.


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

Sean Pitman: The observation alone, of the granite cube on an alien planet, informs us that the creator of the cube was intelligent on at least the human level of intelligence – that’s it. You are correct that this observation, alone, would not inform us as to the identity or anything else about the creator beyond the fact that the creator of this particular granite cube was intelligent and deliberate in the creation of the cube.

Your frank admission concedes that the creator of the cube could itself be an evolved being, and therefore you’re back to square one. Thus, your hypothetical argument offers no support for either evolutionism or creationism, and cannot distinguish between them.


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
I have taken much abuse by pointing out the simple fact that SDAs have specific interpretations of origins that originate from scripture and cannot be supported by science (if science is “potentially falsifiable empirical evidence”). The beliefs include:

o fiat creation by voice command from a supernatural being
o all major life forms created in a 6-day period
o original creation of major life forms approximately 6,000 years ago

None of these can be falsified by experimental evidence, and therefore are accepted on faith.

Sean Pitman’s responses to this are predictably all over the place. They include:

[This] is a request for absolute demonstration. That’s not what science does.” [totally agreed; science can’t examine these beliefs]

The Biblical account of origins can in fact be supported by strong empirical evidence.” [not any of these three major interpretations of Genesis 1]

Does real science require leaps of faith? Absolutely!

I think it’s fair to say from Pitman’s perspective that faith derived from science is laudable, whereas faith derived from scripture–God’s word–is useless.

Don’t fret, Dr. Pitman. I won’t lure you into further pointless discussion. While I am greatly amused by all of this nonsense and deliberation (hardly angry, as you often suggest) for a small handful of largely disinterested readers, I am finished. I won’t be responding to any further remarks or questions.