Comment on Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’ by BobRyan.
Educate Truth has already documented the fact that Erv Taylor is one of the key external-to-LSU evolutionists (in addition to a list of internal LSU evolutionist evangelists) being asked to contribute to the evolutionist onslaught that occurs during the LSU biology capstone course for seniors. How “unsurprising” then that Erv approves of evolution at LSU as the right answer for a doctrine on origins.
Erv Taylor is qouted in Bob Pickle’s post above – as saying
Erv said
Although some highly conservative elements made a concerted attempt to add fundamentalist language to the official fundamental Adventist statement of belief, these efforts were not successful and the official summary of belief continues only to quote the Biblical expression used in Genesis to describe the origin of the world.
Larry Geraty makes a similar argument on Spectrum
http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/07/02/clarification_regarding_history_fundamental_belief_6_creation#comment-73031
His opening article ends with these words
Geraty said –
“When this statement was being discussed on the floor of the General Conference Session, with Elder N. C. Wilson,* president, presiding, there were suggestions from some delegates on the floor supportive of the move to include more restrictive language, i.e. “literal 24-hour days,” etc. However, some delegates resisted in favor of just quoting the language of Genesis 1 to which all delegates could agree, not interpretive language that might cause dissension.The aim at the time that the belief on Creation was written was to employ biblical phraseology and thus unify believers in the biblical view of creation. Doesn’t it seem strange for people to argue that biblical language is “open, ambiguous, and in need of revision”? As John Brunt got up to say at the floor mic (but time was called before he had a chance to speak), “One would think that the Bible, mighty as the sword, could withstand delegates tampering with its wording.”
*****
Larry Geraty earned his Ph.D. from Harvard University and is president emeritus of La Sierra University. ”
It is facinating how the talking points of Geraty and Fritz Guy get passed around among the pro-evolutionists connected with LSU – as we see reflected in Taylor’s comments above.
But there is a key flaw in their strategy on the point above about the Bible not being “sufficient” for conservatives. And the flaw is that in the wording of FB#6 was crafted in such a way that the Bible statements MOST clearly affirming a literal 7 day creation week are OMITTED from the FB#6 language!
I highlight that flaw in their argument in my posted response to Geraty’s statement this way –
BobRyan said
I agree with Geraty that the Bible language is clear on this point. It is “instructive” that the areas where the Bible is MOST clear regarding the days of creation week – are missing from the text of FB#6. Since Geraty claims to have drafted the statement (or was it Fritz Guy, they both seem to be claiming credit for this) – maybe he can explain why the –1. Evening and morning were the nth day language is missing from FB6 — IF the intent was really to show the degree to which the Bible language supports a literal 7 day creation week?
2. The “SIX days you shall labor…for in SIX DAYS the LORD MADE…” language is missing from FB#6 — IF the intent was to show the degree to which the Bible language supports a literal 7 day week.
Inquiring minds want to know.
The other thing that would be “nice to know” is how is it that our other Fundamental Beliefs can summarize our views without being limited to snippet Bible quotes “alone” but Geraty feels it would be unwise to follow that same model with FB#6?
Again – inquiring minds want to know.
Geraty also argued that the Michigan Conference stated affirming the 7 day creation week found in the Bible is “extra-biblical”
Geraty said — “Fundamental Belief No. 6 uses Biblical language to which we can all agree; once you start interpreting it according to anyone’s preference you begin to cut out members who have a different interpretation. I wholeheartedly affirm Scripture, but NOT the extra-Biblical interpretation of the Michigan Conference ”
So I responded —
BobRyan said
So how is it that the literal 6 day creation week that we find in Ex 20:11 is “extrabiblical” just because the Michigan Conference leadership accepts it in their own affirmation and “commitment to a seven literal historical, consecutive, contiguous 24-hour day week of creation 6,000 years ago” (as quoted by Geraty in his own comments on that point about the Michigan conference) ?How is it that accepting the “text as it reads” (historical grammatical method being used by our denomination and the Michigan Conference leaders) is “extra biblical” but evolutionisms “actually — birds come from reptiles over billions of years of time” is considered by Geraty to be faithful Bible reading of the text??
When we observe that barely 20 out of 2000 delegates voted against the corrections to be made to FB#6 many conclude that the FRINGE element is the 20 not the 2000. Yet innexplicably Geraty writes ” I believe the tea party movement and radical right-wing politics is affecting our beloved church”.
In any case – this little rabbit trail hoping to confuse some readers into thinking that belief in a 7 day creation week is “extra-biblical” does not much of a life to it because it relies on the belief that the listener/reader – will NOT read the text!
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan Also Commented
Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’
Brother Guy said the Catholic church accepted biological evolution and rejected the modern concept of “intelligent designâ€. “The term has been hijacked by a narrow group of Creationist fundamentalists in America to mean something it didn’t originally mean at all,†he said.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/34852b86-c25f-11df-a91c-00144feab49a,s01=1.html#axzz18QnA94fZ
Hmmm – that sounds familiar.
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’
Ken – I am more than happy to agree that Darwin, Dawkins et all reveal the distinctively religious nature of their argument – and in many respects I would do the same thing on a creation vs T.E debate.
However – a zillion “different topics” have been reviewed on this web-site so far regarding evidence both for and against belief in evolutionism — the end result is that the evolutionists will simply “run to another point” if the current point does not hold up well and creationists will also speak to their strengths while minimizing the unknowns.
No real news there.
What you do not see is Kris “reconsidering belief in evolutionism” just because one of his ideas does not pan out. He simply goes to another one hoping for better results.
And you can see that in the creationist argument there is no claim to have all answers to all puzzles. But there are very good answers to certain points and there is the “still gathering evidence” on other points.
I value these discussions because you can always find new material here. But in the context of a Christian web site and specifically and SDA web site there is a huge “I must ignore the glaringly obvious facts” that an SDA evolutionist has to engage in when it comes to the Bible and Ellen White that goes far beyond many of the observations in nature point-and-counter-point scenarios.
If they are not willing to master the easy topics where everything is clearly spelled out – what about the more speculative questions?
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’
In an effort to help the Web Admin – replace my prior post with this one.
ReplyBobRyan says:
December 14, 2010 Ken – as I pointed out in the case of the book of Daniel and in instances such as the case with the atheist views of professor Veith – that book has convinced a number of atheists of the reality and reliability of the Bible account.
in Christ,
Bob BobRyan(Quote)
Ken replies
ReplyKen says:
December 14, 2010 Dear Bob
Thanks Bob.
Point well taken. The Bible has had an incredible impact on mankind. Great reading. I’ve enjoyed it as I have many other great books including the Origin of Species.
Education is an inclusive rather than an exclusive process. History shows that the collective human mind will not be shackled by dogma but will progress favorably with better knowledge. What education does is give one perspective and critical thinking skills. My wish for my children, who think quite differently than me by the way, is to think for themselves.
Ken — “Think for themselves†— a good goal/objective. no sense in simply parroting “birds come from reptiles†mythology and “eukaryote cells come from rocks gas and water†alchemy when no science demonstrates that such wild fictions are valid.
But as you point out above – there are opposing views such as we find in the Bible vs Darwin’s own doctrine on origins. Darwin himself confronted that problem and finally admitted – no way to bridge that gap. The two views are completely opposed to each other.
He was right in that regard.
One must “pick a lane†as they say – and I pick the lane that says that observations in nature will reflect what actually happened IN nature even if those observations do not pander to atheist religious notions about there “being no godâ€. As firmly as the atheist evolutionist begins his observations in nature with firm belief and conviction that “there is no god†— I begin mine with the firm belief and conviction that the Bible is the infallible Word of God and is to be accepted “as it readsâ€.
The God of the Bible is described as creating a “free will†system of intelligent life including Angels and humans etc. Thus each person – even today much make their choice.
To each his own.
in Christ,
Bob
Recent Comments by BobRyan
Academic Freedom Strikes Again!
george:
By definition, I don’t believe in miracles or apocryphal, anthropomorphic stories about same.Why aren’t scientists observing them today if they occur?
Circular argument. If they were naturally occurring we would expect scientists to see that they are still occurring today. If they are singular events caused by an intelligent being – that being would be under no obligation to “keep causing world wide floods” as if “to do it once you must continually do it”. Armstrong went to the moon.. shall we argue that unless he keeps going to the moon so each new generation can see it … then it did not happen?
Your argument is of the form “all eye witness evidence to some event in the past is no evidence at all unless that event keeps repeating itself so we too can witness it”. Seems less than compelling.
“Could it be that science is better able to detect hoaxes and false claims?” As a rule for dismissing every eye witness account in the past – it is less than compelling. (even when that event cannot be repeated)
Evolutionists “claim” that dust, rocks and gas (in sufficient quantity and over sufficient time and a lot of luck) self organized into rabbits via prokaryote-then-eukaryote-then-more-complexity. But such self-organization cannot be “observed” today.
(What is worse – such a sequence cannot even be intelligently manipulated to occur in the lab)
By your own argument then you should not believe in evolution.
Academic Freedom Strikes Again!
@Sean Pitman:
Suppose you were at a crime scene … there is a tree limb on the ground and a bullet hole in the victim — “all natural causes”? or is one ‘not natural’? Those who say that nothing can be detected as “not naturally occurring in nature” – because all results, all observations make it appear that every result “naturally occurred without intelligent design” seem to be missing a very big part of “the obvious”.
Academic Freedom Strikes Again!
george:
Gentlemen,What just God would allow an innocent child to be born guilty for the sins of a distant ancestor? …What if there was only One Commandment? Do Good. ‘Kant’ see a problem with that.
An atheist point of view is not often found here – but this is interesting.
1. God does not punish babies for what someone else did – but I suppose that is a reductionist option that is not so uncommon among atheists. The “details” of the subject you are commenting on – yet according to you “not reading” – is that humans are born with sinful natures. A “bent” toward evil. That is the first gap right out of the gate between atheism and God’s Word..
2. But still God supernaturally enables “free will” even in that bent scenario, the one that mankind lives in – ever since the free-will choice of the first humans on planet earth – was to cast their lot in with Satan and rebellion..(apparently they wanted to see what a wonderful result that poor choice would create). John 16 “the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment”. And of course “I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32. (not “just Christians”). Thus supernatural agency promotes free will in a world that would otherwise be unrestrained in its bent to evil.
3.God says “The wages of sin is death” — so then your “complaint” is essentially “that you exist”. A just and loving God created planet Earth – no death or disease or suffering – a perfect paradise where mankind could live forever … and only one tiny restriction… yet Adam and Eve allowed themselves to be duped by Satan… tossing it all away. The “Just God” scenario could easily just have let them suffer the death sentence they chose. He did not do that… hence “you exist” – to then “complain about it”.
4. Of course you might also complain that Satan exists – and Satan might complain that “you exist”. There is no shortage on planet earth of avenues for complaint. But God steps in – offers salvation to mankind at infinite cost to himself – – and the “Few” of Matthew 7 eventually end up accepting that offer of eternal life. The rest seem to prefer the lake of fire option… sort of like Adam and Eve choosing disease and death over eternal life (without fully appreciating the massive fail in that short-sighted choice).
In any case – this thread is about the logic/reason that should be taken into account when a Christian owned and operated institution chooses to stay faithful to its Christian mission — rather then getting blown about by every wind of doctrine. Why let the alchemy of “wild guessing” be the ‘source of truth’ when we have the Bible?? We really have no excuse for that. As for science – we can be thankful that it has come as far along as it has – but no matter how far back you rewind the clock of our science history – we should always have chosen the Bible over wild guessing.
Newly Discovered Human Footprints Undermine Evolutionary Assumptions
Ervin Taylor:
Perhaps Dr. Pitman would enlighten his readers what on earth “the neo-Darwinian story of origins” might be. Darwin did not address origins.
Origins of what?? the first eukaryote??
Or “origins of mankind”??
Darwin himself claimed that his own false doctrine on origins was totally incompatible with Genesis and that because of this – Genesis must be tossed under a bus.
hint: Genesis is an account of “Origins” as we all know — even though “bacteria” and “amoeba” are terms that don’t show up in the text.
The point remains – Darwin was promoting his own religion on origins totally counter to the Bible doctrine on origins. He himself addresses this point of the two views.
Newly Discovered Human Footprints Undermine Evolutionary Assumptions
Ervin Taylor:
Here we go again.If the footprints upon close examination, are determined not to be from a hominim/hominid, I wonder if Educate Truth (sic) will announce that determination.Or if the date of the surface is determined to be much younger, will there be a notice placed on fundamentalist web-sites.If you believe the answer to these questions are yes, I have a big bridge that I would like to sell you for pennies on the dollar.
Here we go again … hope piled upon hope…no matter the “observations in nature” that disconfirm the classic evolutionary hypothesis
Reminds me of “What we still don’t know” by Martin Reese and Leonard Suskind
