Re Jan’s Quote “Ken, you ask, “why paint all evolutionists as …

Comment on Adventist Education–at the crossroads? by ken.

Re Jan’s Quote

“Ken, you ask, “why paint all evolutionists as atheists? Why paint all Adventists as pseudo scientists?” I presume these are rhetorical quesitons, and not directed at me per se. If directed at me, then to both questions I would respond–I don’t. I like the rhetorical thrust of these questions however, for I am more about building bridges and seeking common ground than I am about finger pointing.

Jan Long(Quote)”

Dear Jan

Quite right my friend, rhetorical indeed, I hope I did not cause you any offense.

I’ve been greatly impressed with the editors of Educate Truth and your civility speaks highly to humane, intelligent debate. Unfortunately some of the contributors do at times engage in what appears to be ad hominem remarks. Good people can differ in viewpoints and learn from each other.

I value your contribution and hope you continue to do so.

Best regards
your agnostic friend
Ken

ken Also Commented

Adventist Education–at the crossroads?
Re Wes’s Quote

“Something very strange has been going on here. It isn’t just the old on-going exchange of scientific data and declamations for and against Creationism and Evolutionism. That, yes, but under it something more mystical and basic and fundamental and crucial. Certainly for SDAs. It hits home.”

Dear Wes

Good to hear from you again!

Does your quote above elliptically refer to the great shaking of the church?

Regards
Your agnostic friend
Ken


Adventist Education–at the crossroads?
Dear Jan

Thank you for your perceptive comments.

I agree for the rational case for a first cause as humans cannot understand infinity. If we ever do then perhaps we will have a better understanding of the nature of a non personified God, Creator, Designer, First Cause, etc?

Suppose, as some astrophysicists conjecture, our universe, the big bang, creation, was not the beginning of everything. Suppose our big bang was the result of several sheets colliding together, which process has been going on ad infinitum. Suppose there our universe is only one of a meta universe where physical laws may differ and organic life as we know it may or may not exist? All these theories exist, although I may have roughly poshest them.

If this kind of meta universe exists what sort of design would that be for sentient beings, for non organic beings?

Is our human understanding of the God semantic evolving as we science unravels more about the nature of the universe, other universes? Will Adventists think of God in the same way in 10 years?, in 100? Is progressive adventism a natural- pardon the pun- evolution of faith based on scientific advances?

When I discuss the nature of God with my teenagers I realize they are far more advanced in their thinking than I was at their age. Why? Knowledge and objective inquiry. Perhaps such knowledge is the allegorical ‘ bite of the apple’ , perhaps, but free human inquiry knows no shackles.

So I ask: why paint all evolutionists as atheists? Why paint all Adventists as pseudo scientists? We use these labels to politicize inquiry, to collect in our intellectual camps for fear of learning from each other. I think Jesus would want otherwise.

Cheers
Your agnostic friend Ken


Adventist Education–at the crossroads?
Re Sean’s Quote

“Surely you have to admit that the whole mechanism of “Survival of the Fittest” is, by its very nature, a very painful and even an evil process when applied to sentient beings. How can you dismiss the effects of suffering and death on sentient beings as being somehow “Ok” or outside of the realm of Divine origin or processes? ”

Dear Sean

This is an interesting and relevant point when it comes to biblical creation vs. evolution.

In a perfect world, where all species procreated and did not die, at what point would the world have become overpopulated? Did God plan for Adam and Eve and their descendants to kill and thus cull populations of animals? Would animals(humans) have aged? If humans aged at what point would this have stopped? Was God’s original plan for sentient beings: humans, elephants, dolphins,etc, to procreate forever without death?

Likely there is a rational explanation for this but I can’t think of one. Perfection and infinite procreation poses problems pour moi. Please forgive my alliterative conundrum 🙂

Cheers
Ken

Cheers
Ken


Recent Comments by ken

God and Granite Cubes
@ Sean

I enjoyed your article. As I’ve stated before, I think Intelligent Design is a more modern form of Deism and do not think it is irrational. However, as science on an ongoing basis shows what matters are explainable by cause and effect, less is attributable to conscious design. The question of course is what are the limits of science in this regard? For example, will it ever be able to explain First Cause/

Below is a more fulsome quote of Professor Townes, an self acknowledged Protestant Christian. Please note what he has to say about literal creation and evolution. Do you think he is being more reasonable than you on the nature of design?

“I do believe in both a creation and a continuous effect on this universe and our lives, that God has a continuing influence – certainly his laws guide how the universe was built. But the Bible’s description of creation occurring over a week’s time is just an analogy, as I see it. The Jews couldn’t know very much at that time about the lifetime of the universe or how old it was. They were visualizing it as best they could and I think they did remarkably well, but it’s just an analogy.

Should intelligent design be taught alongside Darwinian evolution in schools as religious legislators have decided in Pennsylvania and Kansas?

I think it’s very unfortunate that this kind of discussion has come up. People are misusing the term intelligent design to think that everything is frozen by that one act of creation and that there’s no evolution, no changes. It’s totally illogical in my view. Intelligent design, as one sees it from a scientific point of view, seems to be quite real. This is a very special universe: it’s remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren’t just the way they are, we couldn’t be here at all. The sun couldn’t be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here.
Charles Townes
‘Faith is necessary for the scientist even to get started, and deep faith is necessary for him to carry out his tougher tasks. Why? Because he must have confidence that there is order in the universe and that the human mind – in fact his own mind – has a good chance of understanding this order.’
-Charles Townes, writing in “The Convergence of Science and Religion,” IBM’s Think magazine, March-April 1966
Some scientists argue that “well, there’s an enormous number of universes and each one is a little different. This one just happened to turn out right.” Well, that’s a postulate, and it’s a pretty fantastic postulate – it assumes there really are an enormous number of universes and that the laws could be different for each of them. The other possibility is that ours was planned, and that’s why it has come out so specially. Now, that design could include evolution perfectly well. It’s very clear that there is evolution, and it’s important. Evolution is here, and intelligent design is here, and they’re both consistent.

They don’t have to negate each other, you’re saying. God could have created the universe, set the parameters for the laws of physics and chemistry and biology, and set the evolutionary process in motion, But that’s not what the Christian fundamentalists are arguing should be taught in Kansas.

People who want to exclude evolution on the basis of intelligent design, I guess they’re saying, “Everything is made at once and then nothing can change.” But there’s no reason the universe can’t allow for changes and plan for them, too. People who are anti-evolution are working very hard for some excuse to be against it. I think that whole argument is a stupid one. Maybe that’s a bad word to use in public, but it’s just a shame that the argument is coming up that way, because it’s very misleading. “


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”

Hello Sean

First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.

Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!

However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.

I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. 🙁 .

However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.

Good luck in your pursuit of God.

Goodbye
Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Wes’s Quote

“. But for a Christian, a great devolution, a great recidivation, a tragic forfeiture, foreclosure, worse. If I were to use the vocabulary of some of our recent posters, I’d not put it as delicately.”

Hi Wes and Sean

I just read again portions on ID from Sean’s website Detecting Design. I am very confused by both of your responses. Why the heck is Sean promoting ID as a scientific theory if this is such a Christian retreat? Perhaps you two differ here? I apologize if I am missing the obvious but I see a tremendous disconnect between what Sean is saying about ID and what he is prepared to do to promote it within the subset of Adventist education.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”

Hi Sean

The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?

Conviction requires courage period.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Intelligent Design

Gentleman, thanks to all for your fulsome replies.

Yes Wes, I remember your cogent analysis of November 14/11. I appreciared it then and its reiteration now. indeed I was waiting to hear from others especially Sean whose site is named Detecting Design. And, here I agree with Bob, ID
does not necessarily rule out any particular design i. e. fiat
creation ot theistic evolution.

But quite frankly I am disaapointed with Sean’s response, not Sean himself for whom I have deep admiration, because I see this as a step backward. Why? Because if you burn the bridge between science and biblical faith it will not be science that suffers.

Ironically Sean makes many fine, cogent arguments for design in nature so I find his reluctance to promote it formally in Adventist education troubling. Respectfully, I don’t think serious enquiry about reality can creep around the periphery or sneak in through the back door. I’m afraid I see a double standard here.

Yes Wes, I understand why Adventists are nervous on this issue. But if one is seeking the truth about reality one can’t wall it in or burn bridges of enquiry. Wes, perhaps the Hellenic maxim should have not so much: Know thyself, but rather Think for thyself. My park bench in Pugwash is a welcome one but does not feature ontological dividers. It is well designed for truth seekers.

Your agnostic friend
Ken