Re Bob’s Quote “Those who wish to argue that Abraham and …

Comment on Further definition on tap for Adventist fundamental belief on creation by Ken.

Re Bob’s Quote

“Those who wish to argue that Abraham and Moses do not come from an acient pre-Babylonian 7-day week culture – but the Babylonians do – would have to show something like historic evidence to make that case.”

Hi Bob

They likely all did. Perhaps the notion of the 7 day week legend got passed down orally until the Sumerians first wrote about it on seven tablets. Thus subsequent cultures, including Hebrew, become imbued with the 7 day legend passed down from generation to generation and between different cultures living in proximate environs.

For example look at the similarity between Greek and Roman Gods. Is it likely the Romans borrowed and modified the pantheon of Hellenistic deities?

Interesting stuff.

Your agnostic friend
Ken

Ken Also Commented

Further definition on tap for Adventist fundamental belief on creation
Re Ron’s Quote

“But, virtually all mankind accepts it and uses it. A fluke?! I don’t think so.”

Hi Ron

Thanks for your comments.

I think you are right. 7 days is an odd number and if different cultures in the same part of the world were using it one may have borrowed from the other. Which raises the question, who was using it first and who borrowed from whom?

From my brief reading I understand that the Babylonians and Sumerians were using the 7 day week before the Hebrews. Also it seems the Babylonians were celebrating the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th days as ‘holy’ days. Compared to the Hebrews this may not be a fluke as well.

Do we have any Adventist historians out there who could weigh in on this interesting topic of the origin of the 7 day week? Fascinating stuff, especially the cross cultural similarities of holy days falling on the 7th day increments.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Further definition on tap for Adventist fundamental belief on creation
Hi Bob

Which was written first Sumerian writing or the writing of the Bible?

Which was written first the Epic of Gilamesh or the Nochian Flood?

Can something written earlier borrow from something later or can that only occur in time travel tales?

Your agnostic friend
Ken
Your agnostic friend


Further definition on tap for Adventist fundamental belief on creation
Ken’s Question

“In short what logic dictates the true version was revealed to Moses and Moses alone? I’m fine if the answer is pure faith, but if there is logic behind your conjecture, unfortunately I’m not understanding it.”

Bob’s Answer

“This is a case of the One True God restoring an accurate record of the real account of both creation, the fall of mankind and the flood in the case of Moses.”

Hi Bob

Thanks for your comments

As a matter of your faith I have no problem with your answer.

Do you think God revealed part of the truth to the Sumerians where the versions were similar or was the Sumerian version pure fiction?

Your agnostic friend
Ken


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Hi Bob

I asked once before and I’ll ask again: what is your background and expertise in biology?

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Re: What every human being on the planet believes?

Empirically, as i don’t have blind faith I could know this, perhaps it could only be a divine being that could do so. 🙂

Always open to correction though to those that know the absolute truth,

I remain,
Your agnostic friend
Ken


A “Christian Agnostic”?
Re Bob’s Quote

“But we can “observe” that the making of complex systems (and books, and works of art and science) is done by “creators” every day – observable, repeatable, testable. A mechanism proven to work.”

Hi Bob

Thanks for your comments.

This may surprise you but I’m actually intrigued by the design argument. My Dad is a Deist although I’m not of that bent, at least not yet! The laws of nature, i.e. gravity, that even allow the universe to exist are pretty marvelous. Did they arise as a result of a random quantum fluctuation or was their Grand Designer behind it all. If so what is or was the nature of such designer based on what we empirically observe about our universe?

The problem I have with intelligent design within our universe and especially regarding life on earth is theodicy. I do understand how the concept of original biblical sin accounts for the loss of perfection, but I have a very tough time understanding why a God would cause such destruction of his creation based on the disobedience of the literal eating of an apple. I just can’t rationally fathom how the eventual and natural demise of our solar system can be based on Man’s fall. Empirically, through science we can now view the death, and birth, of stars. Was this all caused by eating forbidden fruit?

Thus one must ask: why would a good, compassionate God create a Universe, and sentient life, that suffers and dies? Age old problem, that in my estimation has been allegorically resolved through the Genesis narrative.

Let’s move on to evolution. Micro evolution does not seem to be a problem for anyone. Life does adapt to its environment through genetic change. In my mind the issue becomes what happens over billions of years. After considering everything I have read to date I cannot honestly see an overwhelming case for a young earth. Moreover I have not read or heard anything yet that such a view can be scientifically supported by anyone without a biblical creationist bias. Given enough time great change will occur as evidenced by the vast diversity of life spread over every niche of our planet. Were there kangaroos on the Ark, or did they evolve in an isolated part of the world from whence they could not spread?

I don’t think evolution is a fraud or a hoax. Too many educated people of faith believe and accept it for it to be an atheist conspiracy. Have their been mistakes made and will they continue to be made? Are there dishonest scientists? Certainly. They are fallible humans, just like you and I, after all. But the issue is what does the weight of all the multidisciplinary evidence indicate?

Hope that helps

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”

Hello Sean

First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.

Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!

However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.

I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. 🙁 .

However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.

Good luck in your pursuit of God.

Goodbye
Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”

Hi Sean

The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?

Conviction requires courage period.

Your agnostic friend
Ken