Comment on An apology to PUC by BobRyan.
Karl G. Wilcox says:
November 15, 2010 I began teaching at PUC 20 years ago(1990-1994). …In short, the Bible can be read to mean whatever your preferred set of experts want it to mean. This obscure debate at PUC should have set in motion a real fire storm of commentary, but it did not. That may well be the real crisis– not the maverick sceptics who teach at our colleges, but the spineless, comfort loving constituencies that really could care less what is taught.
I am still puzzled by why La Sierra has been such a target while PUC remains relatively unscathed.I recall a particularly heated moment in the office of the PUC president (circa 1991) when I asked him how he would face the Judgment knowing that under his watch a professor had taught … He deftly changed the subject. When I insisted he answer my question, he refused on the grounds that these rumors had reached him before, but they had not been able to prove the charges. But within that same year, he attended the debate where those views were made public.
… I am afraid that while we debate Creation vs. Evolution, we allow a far more dangerous foe to establish himself in our church– …
A parting anecdote from my PUC years sort of embodies all that I found wrong with the place… in a particular course that I team taught called “Classical World” we discussed St. Augustine’s Confessions. I don’t recall how we got to it, but I happened to mention that Adventists, of course, did not agree Augustine on the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul. To my surprise, I found that most of my honors students (all products of SDA Academies) actually agreed with Augustine on this point. My fellow professor (it was a team taught course) found no reason to admonish the class. Of course, I did! I asked one girl how she had arrived at so unbiblical a conclusion, her response was amazing: “Well, I just have a hard time believing that I can ever really die”. In the end about 2/3 of the class adopted a perfectly Roman position on the destiny of their Adventist souls! Remarkable? Not really, especially if you know something of the post-modern mind. It is not just that Adventist teachers have advocated error, although that does happen, it is also the case that they have not refused it either. It amounts to much the same thing in the end.
Karl I am truly sad to see this reported about PUC. You are right that neither the constituency of PUC nor this Web Site appears to have either been fully informed about events at PUC or those who were informed did not make this information public knowledge.
As the details surrounding LSU have become more generally known – it has become abundantly clear that the evolution problem at LSU did not “surface in the last two years”. In fact it appears to have been a totally unchecked wild fire for many years before you hear a peep about it from a site like Educate Truth and even then it only happens because an LSU student caught in the middle of it – gathers evidence and dares to publish it — and then a web site starts up – daring to publish the details. And of course getting that message out was not inhindered at all by LSU’s Prof Bradley basically admitting in print that they were doing the very thing that the LSU students complained about.
Recall that when this web site first started one of the most common objections to what was posted were of the form “you guys accuse LSU of teaching evolutionism and they do not — how dare you”.
In fact as recently as August LSU published to the entire GC session in Atlanta the idea that they are NOT promoting evolution at LSU.
From: http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/lsu-pr-department-vs-lsu-biology-professors/comment-page-1/
This is an excerpt from a handout being passed out at the LSU booth at the GC Session:
“Our biology curriculum offers a selection of classes with both breadth and depth. It should be pointed out that the theory of evolution is discussed, but not promoted, at La Sierra University.
And now “innexplicably” we have the WASC arguing that LSU should be allowed to continue promoting evolutionism in their science classes – unhindered – or else LSU will get sanctioned. How odd to say that about an institution that supposedly is not promoting evolutionism in their science classes!!
If the details that you have mentioned above are accurate then your conclusion is just and accurate as well. But what we have in the case of LSU is such a bold defiance and public record regading the same, that even the blind should have been able to “get the point” by now. This is not a case of sharp keen insight in detecting a flaw on the part of EducateTruth. It is a case of a totally out-of-control in-the-press video-taped, documented promotion of what 3SG90-91 calls “something really wrong” (to paraphrase) that one has to be almost dead not to get the point, even from a few thousand miles away.
In the details you provide about PUC – it is clear that staff and constituents in that area who are informed of the facts are without excuse for remaining silent and covering up anything that is more than incidental or anecdotal. But in the case of LSU the problem has gone to such excess that the entire NAD is easily “accountable” if we do not speak up.
in Christ,
Bob
Table of Contents
BobRyan Also Commented
An apology to PUC
We need to remember some context:
1. The “context” in this case is a religion department seminar not a biology department seminar. There is no way that the PUC religion department will requiring that their students must master some kind of science solution for all of the questions, puzzles and rabbit trails that an evolutionist can imagine – as part of their basic training.
2. Nothing in the LSU discussion to this date suggests that they suddently woke up one day and discovered that their religion and biology departments were all in the tank for evolutionism. It appears that things took time to develop. Compromise seems to have progressed slowly over time while the administration simply circled the wagons and resisted the opportunity to make changes early. Eventually that kind of leadership results in a 3-alarm blaze.
(To use Battle Creek terminology).
3. PUC represents an “early”(?) stage problem different from LSUs current problem or from the conclusion of the Battle Creek problem. So it likely has a different solution – but LSU stands as a testimony to what happens if you don’t figure something out at one of those earlier stages.
It is this third item above that keeps me looking into the possibiliy that PUC might do something insightful given the example they have just down the road of what goes wrong when you simply choose to look the other way.
in Christ,
Bob
An apology to PUC
“As it turns out” it is possible to “observe the function” of genes, of cells, of organs, of species in exhaustive detail without repeating to one’s self the evolutionist mantra “birds come from reptiles… birds come from reptiles”.
As it turns out all of biology, physics, chemistry, genetics (including harmful mutations occuring everyday in static genomes) can be observed, studied and discovered without the mantra “birds come from reptiles” or the mantra “there is no god” or the mantra ” this could only happen by itself over billions of years of time” or the mantra “there must be a multiverse… there must be a multiverse”.
Even though – for the diehard evolutionist this may appear to be an impossibility.
in Christ,
Bob
Why has the SDA Church not published a scientific text on origins, compliant with FB# 6, to be taught at all Adventist Institutions? Can you really blame the institutions if such texts are not available? Or if they are why are you not promoting them as standardized texts.
Sean, as a leading advocate for overwhelming evidence supporting six day day recent creation, why don’t you simply write and publish a textbook and submit it to the GC for approval? After all you constantly refer to your website as containing such source material.
Ken – nobody here is accusing PUC or SAU or AU or Southerwestern or LLU or any of our other universities (except possibly LSU) of teaching our students that evolutionism is the right science answer for origins or the flood.
In the recent GC session one of the items that came to light is the effort to put science text books together that show an SDA POV and that treet evolutionist speculation as “speculation”.
As it turns out – there is a lot of anatomy and physiology of plants and animals – right down to the genes that is all easily promoted in an SDA context. Where we draw the line is at the level that even atheist evolutionists like Colin Patterson claimed are “stories from the fossil record” about how “one thing came from another – stories easy enough to make up but they are not science”.
in Christ,
Bob
Recent Comments by BobRyan
Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case
Mack Ramsy:: : but the one thing we know for certain is that it was designed to change. There are so many back up and redundancies designed to make whatever changes that DNA faces to be profitable for the organism, or if their deleterious to ensure they don’t damage the subsequent generation (yes there are very complex methods for doing this) The immune system in fact does it intentionally.
BobRyan:
Obviously the references above to “designed” and “intention” could not be overlooked by the objective unbiased reader applying a bit of critical thinking to the topic. And so my response below merely states the obvious point of agreement on a part of that post.No wonder the application of a bit of critical thinking just then – demands that we conclude from your remarks above – that you are an example of an evolutionist that is strongly in favor of Intelligent Design. I too favor I.D.
Mack Ramsy:
Obviously the references abovI don’t believe in ID as it’s traditionally defined. I believe that God created a system designed to evolve.
BobRyan:
Obviously the references abov
In your earlier statement you claimed that system was designed with “redundancy and backup” features. That is not something rocks, gas and water could ever do – hence the term “Intelligent Design”.But perhaps you have access to more highly advanced rocks, gas and water?
Also you mention “intention” as if the immune system was deliberately designed with an end goal in view.
As it turns out – it is those “intention” and “Intelligent Design” aspects (so key to your response above) that are at the very heart of I.D. enabled science were we have the freedom to “follow the data where it leads” even if it leads to a conclusion in favor of design that does not fit atheist dogma about there “being no god”.
how odd then that you seem to later back pedal on your prior observation.
Thus you seem to be in somewhat of a self-conflicted position at the moment.
At least given the content of your statements about “intent” and “backup systems” and “redundancy” designed into the systems themselves (even to the point of “error correction” as we see in the case of nucleic polypeptide amino acid chains and their chiral orientation).
Of course all that just gets us back here
http://www.thebranch.org/videos/Creation_Calls.mov
Mack Ramsy: My language in this forum is not formal. Try not to get caught up in semantic issues.
Out of curiosity is that statement supposed to provide a solution to just how it is that something “not designed” is able to exhibit unique design characteristics such as “back up systems” – “redundancy” – error correcting mechanism and an “immune system with intention” regarding a specific outcome or goal?
No doubt the study of biology most definitely shows us that such things are present “in nature” based on “observations in nature” – and so you are right to state it as you did.
So if you are then going to double back and reject what you just affirmed – what do you have by way of “explanation” for such a self-conflicted course?
Reaching for a solution of the form – “Pay no attention to my actual words if they do not serve to deny I.D.” does not provide as satisfactory resolution to the problem as you may have at first supposed.
in Christ,
Bob
Strumming the Attached Strings
@David Read:
Erv Taylor is not “afraid” to post here – but he is “Afraid” to have well thought out views posted on AToday that do not flatter his agenda.
That was not news right?
in Christ,
Bob
Michigan Conference vs. LSU – Right Wing Politics or Truth in Advertising?
@John J.:
John J.: The fact remains, any decision direction or policy made by a church, conference, union or GCEC can be reversed or changed by those they serve.
Agreed and the fact that the constituency are not voting to reverse it – is a sign that this is not merely the views of the Administration in Michigan.
As for hierarchy – there is no doctrinal authority in the administrators.
And as for administrative hierarchy – the GC leadership has no authority to dismiss rogue teachers which is one of the reasons that this particular meltdown at LSU seems to go on and on and on. It slows at times and it speeds up at other times – but the fire is not simply put out.
in Christ,
Bob
ken:: Let’s continue shall we. You posit that Adam and Eve were producing telomerase as adults as a result of eating fruit from the tree of life. Would you agree that the production of adult telomerase was a direct result of the environment or did the gene(s) affecting production of the a enzyme as adults mutate in their progeny?
1. I never stated whether the fruit from the Tree of Life provided the telemerase enzyme or simply provided a trigger enzyme/protein that caused Adam and Eve to produce Telemerase. Either way the end result was the same.
2. The salient point is that we have a known mechanism that affects the aging of cells starting with new borns.
This is simply “observation in nature” given in response to your question about an observed mechanism in humans for the 900 year life span the Bible mentions.
BobRyan:
It is hard to “do the study” without having them under observation.1. But it is not hard to see the gradual decline in ages over time.
2. It is not hard to see the Bible declare that access to the Tree of Life was the determining factor.
3. It is not hard to see that even in humans today – the ability remains for us to produce telemerase – but we quickly lose that ability.
4. It is not hard to see what effect that has on the telomeres of infants.
The list of knowns for this mechanism are far more impressive than the “I imagine a mechanism whereby static genomes acquire new coding genes not already present and functioning in nature and that this happens for billions of years”.
Ken: Hi BobWe are making good progress!Thanks for your admitting thaf we do not have Adam and Eve or their progeny under observation to do the study.
My pleasure.
Let’s look at the empirical results of your observation. There is no physical evidence that the progeny or descendants lived to 900 years, right? Thus there is no physical evidence that the tree of life provided longevity through the increased production or activation of telermerase right?
There is evidence that a mechanism does exist whereby access to an enzyme would in fact affect the aging process of human cells.
That mechanism is observed in nature to be related to the enzyme Telemerase.
There is a ton of evidence that food contains enzymes and proteins and that the human body can produce enzymes in response to the presence of trigger proteins and enzymes.
It is irrefutably true that humans still today produce telemerase in the case of infants just before birth. Impossible to deny it – though you seem to want to go down that dead end road.
You asked about the “mechanism” that can be observed today that would account for long ages of life recorded in the Bible.
You now seem to be pulling the classic “bait and switch” asking for the video of the people living for long ages before the flood.
Nice try —
As I said before – your method is along the lines of grasping at straws in a true “any ol’ exuse will do” fashion.
in Christ,
Bob
SDA Darwinians compromise key church doctrines
Rev 21 does not say the planet has no light – it says the City has no NEED of light from the Sun.
The inconvenient deatils point to the fact that the New Earth will have a Sun and Moon but the New Jerusalem will have eternal day due to the light of God’s presence.
This is not the hard part.
in Christ,
Bob
