Dr. Pitman, While it is indeed true that we will someday …

Comment on EducateTruth.com promoted on 3ABN by Michael Farris.

Dr. Pitman,

While it is indeed true that we will someday “judge angels”, we have not been given such a responsibility here on this Earth. The reason for this is because we simply do not have enough information to make truly informed judgments. We don’t actually know what people much less angels are thinking. When we are asked to make these moral judgments someday, we will be given a transcript of the thoughts as well as the actions of these individuals.

I disagree. The spiritual man does judge. In fact the passage of Scripture under discussion clearly shows the exact opposite of what you’re saying. It teaches that Christians have a responsibility to judge in spiritual matters:

“Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?” (1 Corinthians 6:1 NKJV)

Question: Is it not clear that the Christian must be able to determine who is “unrighteous” or a “saint” in Paul’s question? Tim Perenich is standing more clearly with the Scriptures in this matter. Let’s read on:

“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?” (1 Corinthians 6:2 NKJV).

This is clear. Paul is rebuking the Christians in Corinth because they were deferring judgment to a secular court. Contrary to your current position, his rhetorical question is a rebuke, “are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?” Let us continue:

“Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life?” (1 Corinthians 6:3 NKJV).

Again, the Christian does judge in matters “that pertain to this life.” Your point that “we do not have enough information to make truly informed judgments” may sound good to our psychological society or nominal Christendom, but it does not echo true with the Spirit by which the apostle Paul wrote. Let’s continue:

“If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? (1 Corinthians 6:4 NKJV)

This verse is so clear that commenting may seem unnecessary. Nonetheless, it is clear that the spiritual man must be able to make “judgments concerning things pertaining to this life,” especially things that concern the church. This is in fact why Paul is writing this message. In case you have any doubts, Paul’s next statement should make you reexamine your position:

“I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?” (1 Corinthians 6:5 NKJV).

I can only imagine what the apostle Paul would say about your position in this matter. Would you correct him? Would you tell him that he is mistaken? Or could it be possible that you are mistaken? I could quote the rest of the section, especially concerning the warning/judgment that Paul goes on to give (1 Corinthians 6:9-10), but I think the point is clear. In fact, in this same letter Paul unambiguously states that the spiritual man judges:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For ‘who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct him?’ But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:14-16 NKJV).

The judgment that God-fearing saints should not entertain is the papistical kind. The fleshly kind of judgment that does not descend from God’s Spirit. But make not mistake Dr. Pitman, the spiritual man judges. We must compare scripture with Scripture. Even in Matthew 7:1 where Jesus said, “judge not,” he continued by saying: “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn and tear you in pieces” (Matthew 7:6 NKJV). How can one decide (the word “Krino” for “judge” also means to decide) who is a “dog” or “swine” if you cannot make a judgment?

The real question at the end of the day is do we have the mind of Christ? Can we be named among the saints? If so, then we have an obligation as Christians to uphold the righteous standard and to be zealous for good works (Titus 2:11-14). And part of the ministry involves rebuking and correcting, as Paul’s letters to Timothy clearly reveal (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Yes, we are to do so in love. But I’m convinced that the view that the church holds today, in regard to love, is a product of spiritualism. In fact, evolution is a doctrine of spiritualism and its defendants stand in contradistinction to the plainest teachings of Scripture. We as Christians have every right, yea, even obligation, to speak the hard truth of the Bible. As Ellen White said:

“The greatest want of the world is the want of men–men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost soul are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall” (Education 57).

~Michael Farris

Michael Farris Also Commented

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Shannon:

Michael: When you become an apostle or prophet–you can write letters–long ones– of discipline with strong language even as necessary.

The idea that I cannot write long and reasoned messages with words of rebuke because I am not a prophet is not biblical. Please give me an “it is written” if your going to make such a statement. Respectfully, it is statements like this that lead me to the unpleasant remark of being “a poor bible student.” Since you mentioned holding church office: I do hold the office of a deacon and accordingly, I am supposed to be able to instruct others in the Word of God, among other things. Perhaps you should reread the message that Stephen gave in Acts 7:1-60. He was a deacon by the way. If we utilize your reasoning then he was overstepping his bounds. The idea that a lay person is not permitted to correct or rebuke or write long letters is absurd.

Do you think the evolutionists will go any easier on you? Especially if you are trying to tell them they are of the devil.

When I debate with evolutionists (atheists) I don’t waste my time telling them they are ignorant of the Scriptures or sharing with them Ellen White statements. The Word of God has already declared them a “fool” (Psalm 14:1). For me to argue with such persons in the manner I have done on this link is equivalent to casting pearl before swine (Matthew 7:6). You are reducing my arguments to trifle pettiness with this question. The issue we are dealing with on this blog relates to Seventh-Day Adventist in leadership positions.

Your quote of Timothy with exposure of sin before the church to reduce the chance of having it happen again–how would you go about that if you were in charge.

If something is done publicly and openly it must be addressed publicly and openly (Galatians 2:11-14). If something is done privately then it must be a private matter, unless the person refuses to turn from their wickedness. The biblical mandate given by Jesus in Matthew 18:15-20 is in in accordance with the law (Deut. 17:6; 19:15). Jesus’ upholding of the law about how there must be two or three witness to judge a matter is apropos to our current conversation.

First of all, they were not to judge a case based on their emotions or with concerns over how the other person may feel. They had to judge the matter in accordance with the oracles of God. In fact, the judgments that God gave to Moses show that He expects no partiality as the 9th commandment makes clear (Exodus 20:16). They (judgments) were given to Israel so they could make righteous judgments. For example: “You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness” (Exodus 23:1 NKJV). God loathed partiality because it would “pervert justice” (i.e the judgments; Exodus 23:2,6 NKJV). Anyone who is going to help determine a matter must know the Scriptures. This is why Paul told Timothy:

“But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from who you have learned them, and that from childhood you have know the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 3:13-15).

The only way Timothy would be able to identify “evil men and impostors” is through a knowledge of the Scriptures. It is the same today. This responsibility may be unpleasant, but as Ellen White said: “True love seeks first the honor of God and the salvation of souls. Those who have this love will not evade the truth to save themselves from the unpleasant results of plain speaking. When souls are in peril, God’s ministers will not consider self, but will speak the word given them to speak, refusing to excuse or palliate sin” (PK 141-142)


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T.R. Perenich:

Your defense was solid. Thank your for taking the time to reason from the Scriptures and for doing so with force of mind. Justin Robinson, I also appreciate your stance as well. It is good to know there are other like-minded brothers in the church.

Blessings,
Michael


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Shannon:

Michael: You have no idea who I am or what my education is. The internet on a discussion site is no place for long explanations and arguments. Basic quotes and beliefs are simple for explanation or understanding. More will not get the job done in this format. Making judgments as to education and ignorance is usually comparative and not too accurate. My statements were made on the other hand off of your ongoing aggressive and demeaning use of wordage in our discussion and discussion with others that don’t happen to agree with you.

You may find that the world will all be much less smart that you if you use agreement with you as the criteria. There are a lot of people that use this as a criteria by the way and I have been treated badly by many of them. Some of them are probably much smarter that you and me put together. Just because of that does not make them right or any more believable.

Respect truly comes as a result of the ability to be respected.

You yourself made subtle accusations about me and my character based upon what I’ve written. This would be unobjectionable, if you pointed out where I’m demeaning people and being “mean spirited.” As it stands, your above response is childish and now I feel bad for engaging you in this dialog. It would be wise to avoid calling a persons name out, and contradicting them, if you do not want to be challenged by them. I think any unbiased reader who as read all my responses would say that I have strong opinions, yes, but that I’m basing them on the Scriptures.

I am not concerned about your education. I do not equate knowledge with education. Titles and accolades mean nothing to me. You could have a Ph.D and it would not matter to me. The wisdom of this world is foolishness to God.

Next, If you don’t believe the internet is a place to make “long explanations” and “arguments” then why are you on this blog? And why are you engaging me in this debate? Conversely, I disagree with you and believe the internet is an excellent place for debate and the exchange of ideas. In case you’re unaware, almost all the arguments Ellen White made, were by way of letter. Most of the letters in the NT are written in defense of a position(s) and with very strong censorious words; they are also sometimes written through “long explanations,” to borrow your complaint about my messages. I have not set out to insult anyone. I simply pointed out your estimations of me and then fairly gave mine of you (to avoid a straw man attack upon you). However, you left out my caveat, wherein I stated that we both have much to learn. And this is true. I don’t think I know it all Shannon. In almost every message I’ve written, I have said I’m open to correction and reasoning from the Scriptures. This is what Protestant Christians do (compare Scripture with Scripture).

Finally, I’m sorry for anyway that I may have offended you. If you point out where I offended you in my above messages, then I will be able to see more clearly where you are coming from. I have no intention of hurting you or anyone else’s feelings on this blog.

It is written: “Bleased are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God” (Matthew 5:9 NKJV).

Sincerely,
Michael