Sean, there are serious holes in your statements. We are …

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Sean, there are serious holes in your statements. We are given the Bible as the measuring stick of truth. This is not some nebulous area like the Godhead which is not explained. We are talking about obedience. What is the point of commandments if not to obey them or point out sin?

There are tons of examples in scripture that show what disobedience to the truth bring. Even Tim Perenich shared some to which you have avoided.

It is a sad day when we equivocate over behavior and fail to call sin what it clearly is. We have come a long way in our church; days when things were pointed out and rebuked are long gone, replaced by needmeeting and sin imbibing men and women who do not have a love of the truth. Where is the accountability? Where have guidlines laid by the scriptures and even the spirit of prophecy gone?

I am well aware that we live in an age where accountability is gone. I am also aware of the insidious deceptions of the psychological society and their robbery of accountability and truth. You can say this is gray area and further say that we do not know their heart, however scripture condemns their actions as wickedness and that should be good enough for any professed Christian.

Just a quick question. Would you call an adulterer a sinful man or would you tell us we do not know his heart? This limpwristed need meeting “dont judge me” theology is going to pave the roads to hell and those helping it are going to act as the pied piper leading souls down that very road.

How do you reckon the words of Peter in his second epistle, particularly chapter 2?

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

Yet Peter takes it even further:

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, cloudscarried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

And finally:

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[d] from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

How do you reckon this? These are not my words, nor Tim Perenich’s. We are all called to build and uphold the character of God. As an SDA this should be first and foremost in your mind, especially understanding such doctrines as the Day of Attonement. Do you honestly think God is going to excuse the lazy and easeloving nominal christians of this age? If so, you are in for some serious disappointment.

Justin Robinson Also Commented

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This continuous talk about motive serves to cover up the most plain teachings in the bible regarding the duty of the church to judge in spiritual matters. Neither I, Michael or Tim Perenich began his message to you, said that not even the most preeminite psychiatrist could judge a man’s heart. (Jer. 17:9)

Should read:
This continuous talk about motive serves to cover up the most plain teachings in the bible regarding the duty of the church to judge in spiritual matters. Tim Perenich began his message to you, said that not even the most preeminite psychiatrist could judge a man’s heart. (Jer. 17:9)


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@Sean Pitman, M.D.:

You do realize that I’m one of the people who started this whole effort against the promotion of evolutionism at LSU? How then can you ask if I believe in the Bible or in the doctrines of the SDA Church?

Sean, I ask you that question because I am not sure whether or not you hold to the idea that some scripture is obviously inspired while other areas of scripture are not. To be fair, I figure I would ask that and move forward. I am not asking if you believe in doctrines of the SDA church(That’s already assumed.) I am only arguing that your stance does not appear to be in harmony with the plain teachings of the bible. This is my Christian duty to question you openly on this specifically when you are writing things that are questionable.

The fact of the matter is that many of the people I disagree with on the topic of origins are not “ignoramuses, infidels or biblically lazy” – (but I’m beginning to wonder about you). They may be wrong in their interpretations and conclusions, in my opinion, but they are sincere and honest as far as I can tell. Many of them would give me the shirt off their back if I was in trouble.

Does it necessarily matter whether or not someone does a good deed particularly as it relates to the issue we are discussing? Let me be more clear: Do the wicked not take care of their children? Do the wicked not have wives and husbands that they love intimately? Do the wicked not look out for one another? Let’s be clear here Sean, Jesus himself said:

“9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!” (Mat. 7:9-11 NKJV)

Do you not see the language used here? “You then being evil..” is this to be frowned upon as overly critical or harsh? Notice how throughout the scriptures even the evil men and women are associated with doing good deeds to others? This type of logic you are exercising, regarding those that would give you the shirt off of their back, means very little when considering the damning ramifications of doctrine these men are espousing.

I dare say that such a person, even though admittedly confused on this or that point of doctrine, is not obviously “evil” by any means.
Again, a lack of knowledge or confused ideas regarding a point of doctrine, however important that doctrine may be, does not automatically make a person evil. Both the Bible and Ellen White are full of examples and commentary in this regard… if you care to do just a bit of your own investigation in this direction. As far as I can tell, you consistently take passages out of context and twist them in a harsh manner to match your own world view.

You should heed your own advice Sean. I have yet to see you make the arguments from scripture. You merely speak of them in passing. If we are to measure scripture vs scripture, line upon line, where are yours?

You seem unable to separate evil results of actions from the actor – giving room for the person to be as guiltless as possible before God. You seem to see yourself as an expert in judging motive even though both the Bible and Mrs. White are extremely clear that God alone is the only truly accurate judge of motive – especially regarding differences in doctrinal understanding.

I have read Ellen G White and I have surely read the scriptures and they are clear on dealing with spiritualism. Listen to what EGW says regarding spiritualism:

“Even in its present form, so far from being more worthy of toleration than formerly, it is really a more dangerous, because a more subtle, deception. While it formerly denounced Christ and the Bible, it now professes to accept both. But the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God, but it is degraded to a weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil. God’s justice, His denunciations of sin, the requirements of His holy law, are all kept out of sight. The people are taught to regard the Decalogue as a dead letter. Pleasing, bewitching fables captivate the senses and lead men to reject the Bible as the foundation of their faith. Christ is as verily denied as before; but Satan has so blinded the eyes of the people that the deception is not discerned.” (Great Controversy, p.558)

This continuous talk about motive serves to cover up the most plain teachings in the bible regarding the duty of the church to judge in spiritual matters. Neither I, Michael or Tim Perenich began his message to you, said that not even the most preeminite psychiatrist could judge a man’s heart. (Jer. 17:9)

Notwithstanding this, Jesus himself made it clear that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. So while we may not be able to read the heart, it is very clear that we cannot separate what a person says and does from what they are. I have yet to see anyone here validate their position using the scripture (except Michael Farris and Tim Perenich).

I advise you to reconsider your attitude in how you approach those who do not yet understand the importance of certain pillars of the SDA faith. All of the SDA doctrines are very important in my opinion, but they aren’t the basis of salvation. Again, the only thing that saves a person is their motive of love toward God and toward their fellow man as best as they can perceive how to express their love. Sometimes the expression of love doesn’t turn out well. However, this lack of proper expression does not negate the underlying motive of love – a motive that is still regarded with high value by God.

Again you are not in accord with scripture. One is not saved just by their motive. IF you do not think incorrect doctrine can lead to the second resurrection you are seriously mistaken. You really need to reexamine scriptures and the writings of Ellen White. You seriously downplay the role of character and obedience. Having an understanding of the pillars of Adventism at one point used to be one of the requirements to teach in our institutions. Nonetheless, the writings of infidels have been in our universities for quite some time. It is only natural that such policies would culminate into the blatant apostasy that we are now seeing.

I understand that you feel a duty of defending the characters of these men who stand as infidels. Are you not aware of what they said when you left? It is written on this blog “Bishop quoted Matthew 19:4 to Greer, asking how he reconciled what the Bible said about human origins with evolution. According to Olmo and Lemus, Grismer said, “You’re stupid and ignorant. You don’t know enough to say anything. Your kind of thinking drives planes into buildings.””

This is the word of God that Grismer is denigrating and you want to defend their characters and tell me that I have no business calling an apple an apple? These men and women openly make disparaging remarks regarding the word of God and you defend them as being unclear in motive. They are aligning themselves with the devil. These are workers of iniquity amidst the supposed camp of God and you would tell me I need to relax and view things through your lense. No thank you, let us view things from the lense of scriptures.

Essentially you are asking me to just take your word for it and mind your counsel and not consider workers of wickedness wicked? This is in complete contradiction with scripture.

You keep talking about how we can’t judge motives and by you saying this, somehow or another that is supposed to offset these clear teachings in scripture of how we are supposed to judge the sins that are obvious and remove them from our midst. It does not matter if we know their motives, we have their actions and the oracles of God to help us judge spiritual matters. Why do you think there is something in the law called judgments? There are civil and moral laws to name a few. In fact the law counsels us on how to find out if there is an enemy, apostate or false prophet within our midst. Exodus 20-23, Deuteronomy 13.

Here is what the apostle Paul wrote regarding matters like this

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” (1 Cor. 5:1-13 NKJV)

Paul rejects and shames those unwilling to judge matters in accountability that instead go to secular courts:

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? (1 Cor. 6:1-4 NKJV)

There are plenty of other areas in scripture like the second epistle of Peter which you did not respond to. There are no twisting of scriptures here Sean. We are to know who is of God and who is not by their fruit. We are to hold each other accountable to good works as well. This fact is in accordance to the biblical standard of Isaiah 8:20 : To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:20 NKJV)

Look at the straight testimony of Paul in his letter to Titus:

5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— 6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7 For a bishop[b] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. 10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. (Titus 1:5-16 NKJV)

It is like a little child who loves his parents and so one day decides to make breakfast for them. He burns the toast and the eggs are a real mess. He gets milk all over the deck in the kitchen and the Cheerios are scattered all around. He spills orange juice on the carpet trying to get the food to his parents room to surprise them. The whole thing is a complete mess, but his parents both smile when they see his efforts to make them breakfast in bed and give him big hugs and kisses. It doesn’t matter that it takes them hours to clean up everything. The only thing that matters to them is that their boy tried to do something nice for them and loves them.
I know this because I was the boy and this is how my own parents responded to me. And, I know this is how God responds to us as well.

Telling me a construct analogy and imposing it over scripture tells me nothing. The difference between this and what is happening on this blog is night and day.
First off, these men and women have the written Word of God in front of their faces. They are choosing to side with and espouse the lies of satan. Furthermore they lay a snare for those within our church. You keep emphasizing that these are kind people, don’t you realize the devil comes at us as angel of light? This is not something as simple as a child trying its best and then messing up and being loved unconditionally for it. The words of Jesus regarding this are even more harsh than mine:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. [please stop talking to us about motives] Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat. 7:15-20 NKJV)

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ (Luke 13:22-27 NKJV)

This is not some simple thing of a new believer, these are educators in lofty positions that have no business in our midst, I know you agree. The same goes for those who bare the title of Christian. I did not baptize them, nor would I baptize an unbeliever. This is unbiblical and says a lot about the institution that allows unbelief and the philosophies of infidels to permeate through our church.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Mat 7:21-23 NKJV)

This is not some small deal of unimportance. We are talking about spiritualism in the camp of God. This is directly linked to the last day deception that will sweep most people away to the fires of hell.


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@Shannon:

Your responses are very disappointing. I have read Michael Farris’s posts and he has stood on scriptures and you have not at all. We have a record here on this site and you have clearly not. Are we supposed to just take your word for it? Where is the biblical integrity here?