Sean, Is it possible that your family members have left …

Comment on The Reptile King by Ron.

Sean, Is it possible that your family members have left the church because your attitude doesn’t leave room for them in the church?

Ron Also Commented

The Reptile King

OK, Bob, I stand corrected. The tree I looked at wasn’t big enough to make the connection between snakes and reptiles. I was surprised to find on the larger tree that Birds are also reptiles which I wasn’t expecting.

The Reptile King

BobRyan: There are 4 basic positions that have been posted so far

There is a fifth option. Believe that the Bible is the word of God, but that it was not meant to be understood as a rule book, but as a case study. Maybe we are supposed to read it and think about it, and maybe even disagree with it. You know, argue with God, like Abraham did before Sodom and Moses did before Israel, and Mary did at the wedding. Maybe like Job we are supposed to be honest and complain when God is abusive toward us. Maybe there is supposed to come a time when we no longer kill people who pick up sticks on the Sabbath. Maybe there comes a time when marrying you sister is incest, taking a second wife is bigamy, and tying your child up and threatening to kill him because you hear God telling you to is insanity and abuse. Maybe we are supposed to read these stories, and realize how horrible some ideas of righteousness are and change our “fundamental beliefs” (to quote Mrs. White.)

The Reptile King

BobRyan: Given that you cannot even back-engineer it – you are in a poor position to claim that God as the maker of the cell shows no intelligence in his handiwork

Bob, This is why I have a hard time taking you seriously, you refuse to acknowledge what is in front of your very eyes. We HAVE back engineered it ( We understand how evolution works and we see it happening everyday.

Just look around. For the moment forget Genesis and Biology. Evolution is universal principle. Everything evolves. Even things that are intelligently designed (like cars, computers, language, music) evolve. I bought a food processor today at Costco. Costco itself is a business model that evolved from Fedco. Comparing the new food processor to the old one reveals that the food processor has evolved quite a bit in 30 years. There is not inherent conflict between evolution and creation, any more than there is a conflict between intelligent engineers and the evolution of transportation.

Really, there is no reason to be threatened. The threat is wholly imaginary. Yes, you can chose to interpret Mrs. White the way you have, and it will make you narrow minded, bigoted and oppressive, or you can chose to interpret her statement in a way that is open, and inclusive and yet still takes her concern seriously. I am really hoping that some on this web site will pause and take a second look. I know it is scary to accept something that seems on the surface to threaten your core beliefs, but truth is true. It will stand. You don’t need to be afraid. (I think there is a Mrs White quote somewhere to that effect.) Take Mrs. White seriously, but take everything she said seriously, not just those things that reinforce your fear.

Recent Comments by Ron

Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation

Sean Pitman: No one is demanding that they “get out of the church”. . . . . anti-Adventist views on such a fundamental level.

You don’t see how characterizing a dedicated believer’s understanding of truth as “fundamentally anti-Adventist” would drive them out of the church?

I guess that explains why you don’t see that what you are doing here is fundamentally wrong.

Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation

Professor Kent: Nothing saddens me more than the droves who leave the Church when they learn that many of their cherished beliefs regarding this evidence don’t hold up so well to scrutiny.

I agree. I am sure that Sean and Bob don’t mean to undermine faith in God, but every time they say that it is impossible to believe in God and in science at the same time, I feel like they are telling me that any rational person must give up their belief in God, because belief in God and rationality can’t exist in the same space. Who would want to belong to that kind of a church?

Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation

Sean Pitman: and have little if anything to do with the main point of their prophetic claims

And by analogy, this appears to be a weak point in the creation argument. Who is to decide what the main point is?

It seems entirely possible that in trying to make Gen. 1 too literal, that we are missing the whole point of the story.

Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation
Regarding falsifying the existence of God through the miraculous:

While it is true that one can’t falsify the existance of God and the Biblical miracles at a philosophical level, it seems to me that it is possible to falsify it at a practical level. For instance prayer for healing. How many families who pray for a miracle for a loved one in the Intensive Care Unit receive a miracle?

While the answer to that question doesn’t answer the question of the existence of God at a philosophical level, it does answer the question at a practical level. After 36 years of medical practice I can say definitively that at a practical level when it comes to miracles in the ICU, God does not exist. Even if a miracle happens latter today, it wouldn’t be enough to establish an expectation for the future. So at a practicle level it seems it is possible level to falsify the existence od God, or at least prove His nonintervention which seems to me to be pretty much the same thing at a functional level.

Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation
@Sean Pitman:
Sean, what is your definition of “Neo-darwinism” as opposed to “Darwinism” as opposed to “evolution”?