@krissmith777: There is nothing in the context that even implies …

Comment on Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’ by Sean Pitman.

@krissmith777:

There is nothing in the context that even implies that the Nephilim that existed after were different from the ones who existed before. You’re reading that into the text despite it not even being there.

The context is the worldwide Flood that the author of Genesis claims destroyed all land animal life save the lives on those on the Ark. The vast majority of Hebrew scholars (conservative and liberal) agree with me on this one – that the author of Genesis intended to convey a universal destruction of all human and land animal life on Earth… save that on the Ark.

I’m sorry, but you are straining the obvious interpretation of the text far beyond what it actually says…

Now, why would Moses (who lived between somewhere between 1500 and 1290 write about pre-flood people’s in the present?

For a number of reasons. People often write historical accounts using present tense. The context is still quite clear that it is a historical account even those present tense words are used.

It is true that fresh water can deposite organic material, but your claim that the there were no salt water bodies or great ocreans before the flood is contradicted by the Bible itself Genesis 1:10 implies otherwise. And since many Creationist simply that the land was what we now call pengea, that would imply that like today, there was more water covering most of the earth’s surface from the get-go.

Genesis only mentions four great rivers existing before the Flood as well as small “seas”. Mrs. White mentions that small shallow seas also existed, but that there were no great oceans at all. John, in Revelation where he talks about the New Earth, also mentions that there will be “no more sea” – i.e., no more huge oceans covering the planet when it is remade into its original condition (Revelation 21:1 NIV). It also did not rain before the Flood. The Earth was watered by morning dew, not rain. If there had been large oceans before the Flood as exist today, rain could not have been avoided.

In short, most of the surface of the Earth was originally covered by land, not water, before the Flood. The water before the Flood was largely subterranean and supplied the “fountains of the great deep”.

This is like asking “Is water flow the result of rock erosion?” The molton liquid under the crust (like water) is just that: A liquid. The molton liquid is the remnant of what the earth was made of. The molton liquid is below the curst of the earth, and therefore it was there BEFORE the crust. As water naturally has currents, the molton liquid would also have currents…even before the crust formed. Therefore most liklely the currents are NOT the result of the plates moving, but the other way around.

According to mainstream literature these currents are not powerful enough to drive continental drift and no one really knows what caused the currents – i.e., if they are really involved as a driving force in continental drift or are simply a result of continental drift. After all, as a paddle moves through the water with each stroke, it produces currents in the water. The currents are a result, not a cause, of the paddle being moved through the water.

Considering that Young Earth Creationists (many at least) were the first to insist that Plate Tectonics began at a rapid pace during the flood and slowed since, it’s actually kind of funny that you’re saying this.

There is very good evidence to support this hypothesis…

Only about 2 billion metric tons of sediment are subducted or “recycled” each year leaving some 28 billion metric tons to build up on the ocean floor each year. This means that the current ocean sediment (~10^17 tons) would have been deposited in just ~15 million years. – Sean Pitman

The present erosion rates are somewhat due to the present rate of mountains forming. The continents are much more dynamic than you give them credit for. And it isn’t just recycled matarial, but ALSO NEW material that gets introduced from the earth’s mantle that continually maintain the continents.

Maintaining the continents doesn’t explain how the sedimentary layers are maintained on top of the cotinents. Also, the above listed argument has nothing to do with explaining how the continents are maintained. This argument has to do with the rate of sediment accumulation within the oceans. In other words, there isn’t nearly enough sediment in the oceans if the oceans really are hundreds of millions of years old as mainstream scientists believe.

Saying the rate of erosion is much greater than the rate of recycled materials and the materials from the interior of the earth can replace them would also beg the question: If that is true, then how do volcanic islands (like Hawaii) manage to form and remain above the furface for more than a couple million years. The oldest inhabited Hawaiian Island is 3.3 million years old, and the Island of Maui (the youngest island) is 1.3 milion years old. Assuming that your figure is correct and considering that they are MUCH SMALLER than any continent, it’s unthinkable that they wouldn’t have have already have been submerged. — Lisianski Island is between 19.9 and 20.6 million years old. If the rate of erosion would have caused the continents to have been eroded away the continents in 15 million years, then why can’t it even completely erode a small island (much smaller than a continent) in 20 million years? By all rights, it should be long gone.

If tens of millions of years have in fact transpired these islands (with inactive volcanos) should be eroded flat by now. The fact that they aren’t strongly suggests that they aren’t that old. The same is true for the continents themselves which all suffer significant coastal erosion.

Beyond this, you completely missed the point of the original argument – the argument having to do with the lack of expected ocean sediment if the oceans really are hundreds of millions of years old. The oceans should be choked with sediment by now. Where did it all go? – since the current amount of sediment in the ocean basins can be easily explained within 15 million years?

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Phil Mills:

One of these frequent posters claims to be a Young Earth Creationists, but believes in creation based on what he refers to as “faith.” One could get the idea that he fears that anything scientifically shown to support creation is actually bad since it would then somehow require less faith to believe. His faith, however, is more akin to the Catholic student who is reported to have said, “Faith is what you believe that you know ain’t so.”

This is not Biblical faith. Neither is it the faith of the Adventist pioneers. It certainly doesn’t build faith, it actually destroys genuine faith. This pseudofaith more closely resembles a mere superstitious belief. It is no surprise that agnostics, evolutionists, and other doubters have such an affinity for those who possess this kind of “faith” on this site. Why wouldn’t they agree with it. It doesn’t threaten them in any way. It bolsters their ranks. It confirms their unbelief since they already believe faith is unreasonable.

I couldn’t have said it better myself…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Professor Kent:

Of course it’s a good thing; I never said it was bad. The problem is when you and Pitman maintain that empirical evidence from nature is essential to validate the Bible–and that is heresy and blasphemy.

You yourself made this “blasphemous” claim when you listed off several empirical evidences, like fulfilled prophecy (based on empirical investigation of real history), as reasons why you believe the Bible to be superior to other books claiming to be the true Word of God.

Here is what you wrote:

In short, there is ample evidence to support the Bible and Christianity, including fulfilled prophecy, the lives and testimony of the apostles, archeology, the impact of the Bible on personal lives, and so forth. All of this is “empirical evidence” that goes beyond what is needed to establish the validity of scripture. The other religions are confronted with serious shortcomings on these issues, in my opinion… – Professor Kent

Now, if the Holy Spirit is enough, as the Latter-day Saints believe, to lead you into all truth without having to use your brain, why did you appeal to these empirical evidences to support your belief or faith in the superior credibility of the Bible vs. other competing options held in higher regard by other faiths? Why didn’t you just appeal to the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking directly to you as evidence enough?

So, the argument here isn’t really over the need for an empirical basis for one’s faith in the Bible before it can be considered rational. You yourself appeal to such. You admit to the need for an empirical argument as the basis for choosing the Bible over other competing options. You’ve made this argument several times now. Therefore, the real argument here is in regard to your notion that the empirical basis, or “weight of empirical evidence” for faith never changes or needs to be re-examined in any way over time – despite the discovery of new evidence and information?

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@krissmith777:

You missed my overall point. The first sentence I quoted from it was: The rates at which sediments accumulate vary enormously, owing to the natural variability of the processes that produce and transport sediments. — The rates vary greatly depending on the conditions… Your argument pre-supposes that the rate has not changed, and you have not demonstrated that it has. — And frankly, it doesn’t have to be.

You misunderstand the “rate” that the author is talking about here. This rate is not the overall rate of ocean sedimentation which is in fact fairly constant at ~30 billion tons per year. I’ve already tried to explain this to you, but the variability your reference is talking about is the local variability that is indeed due to many factors of sediment transport within the oceans themselves. This local variability does not affect the overall sediment load that is consistently delivered to the oceans.

— David E. Thomas says it much better than I ever could:

…much sediment never gets to the ocean floor, but is trapped instead on continental slopes and shelves, or in huge river deltas. Over the years, some of these continental slopes can accumulate several kilometers of sediment, while others can even become part of mountain ranges in continental plate-to-plate collisions. Neither erosion nor subduction are expected to be constant processes over millions of years, and they are simply not good clocks.

Indeed, and my calculations take into account all the sediment currently in the oceans, to include the sediment on continental slopes and shelves and river deltas. The total amount of sediment, taking all of these factors into account, is only 10^17 tons. That tonnage can be explained in just 15 million years. That’s a huge problem for mainstream theories of plate tectonics and the proposed age of ocean basins. Your arguments about the variability of sedimentation for different parts of the ocean floor are completely irrelevant to explaining the total tonnage that is currently in the oceans regardless of its location.

I heard one geologist call it a “crude” dating method. Looks more related to “relative dating,” not “absolute dating.”

Again, you’re looking at local rates of accumulation over time, not the overall rate of accumulation over time. You’re confusing two separate concepts here. They aren’t the same thing.

Again, that is completely irrelevant to the point that the total amount of sediment, the total tonnage that is current in the oceans, irrespective of its location within the ocean basins, can be explained given just 15 million years… – Sean Pitman

And the paper I linked a while ago using the current rate gave the figure of 100 million years: (“At a rate of 0.5 cm (.2 in)/1000 years, it takes only 100 million years to accumulate 500 m (1600 ft) of sediment,”)

Indeed – the local rate of sediment accumulation on some areas of the ocean floor may indeed be this slow. Again, however, this is completely irrelevant to the fact that the total sediment contained by all the oceans in the whole world, to include the sediment that is on or close to the continent shelves, is far far too low for them to be nearly as old as mainstream scientists propose…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


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